RE: Stat Packages
Well, one last plug for MINITAB and then I will quit. I suspect the most desirable graduate is one who understands statistics - not a particular package - since anybody can move from one package to another. They are all spread-sheet and menu organized. MINITAB output lends itself better to teaching, since it contains nearly everything, but is succinct and logically organized. I suspect that if you ran this question on a stats group (e.g. edstat), MINITAB would be quite popular. John W. Kulig Professor of Psychology Plymouth State College Plymouth NH 03264 Eat bread and salt and speak the truth Russian saying. -Original Message- From: Bill Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 8:20 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Subject: Re: Stat Packages I agree with John. A graduate will do better in a job interview or in applying for a research assistantship if he or she can claim a knowledge of SPSS rather than MINITAB or any of the others. If SPSS is practically useful for your students to know, then it should be available. Our campus has a magnetic resonance image device on site for the casual use of at most 10 physics majors (along with many other expensive machines for those 10 students). We have 30-50 seniors in psychology each year. Almost every one of them uses SPSS in the analysis of their senior thesis. Stat packages are tools and students should be given access to the tools that are used in the real world. I agree that they shoud be learning the principles and fundamentals of statistics. But if they can't show a familiarity and facility with professional tools, they will be at a disadvantage after graduation. Bill Scott - Original Message - From: John Serafin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Stat Packages on 3/6/03 4:23 PM, Robert Herdegen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TIPSters: Periodically, someone on the list asks about what people are using as stat packages. This time it's my turn. We're having to figure out how to handle the dramatic price increases from SPSS and need to know about alternatives to SPSS, how well they work, and what they cost. I can do the legwork in finding out about costs, but simply do not know what the alternatives are for student (instructional) use, and for professional (research) use. So, what do you use? Like it? Easy or difficult for students to use? for you to use? Does it do multiple regression? multi-factor mixed ANOVAs (especially with multiple within-subject variables)? Any help you can provide within the next day or so will be greatly appreciated. (And I'll even appreciate help that is provided after the next day or so!) Not what you're asking for probably, but: We went through this same issue, where the IT department claimed we needed to find a cheaper alternative to SPSS. We got enough faculty to respond that there was no better alternative, and we still have SPSS. We are a small school, but the site license for SPSS is affordable and well worth the cost. Sure there are other stats packages out there. But your IT department is supposed to be supporting your academic needs, rather than you succumbing to their budget constraints. Yeah, SPSS is expensive, but ask your budget people if they are actually committed to providing the best possible education for students. If you other faculty there are ok with a different stats package, fine; if not, don't give in. Sorry if that sounds confrontational, but I am tired of administrators telling me what computer platform and what software packages I should be using for instruction and research. It ain't their job to decide that; it's their job to provide, within their budget, what you need to do your job. John -- John Serafin Psychology Department Saint Vincent College Latrobe, PA 15650 [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Stat Packages
TIPSters: Periodically, someone on the list asks about what people are using as stat packages. This time it's my turn. We're having to figure out how to handle the dramatic price increases from SPSS and need to know about alternatives to SPSS, how well they work, and what they cost. I can do the legwork in finding out about costs, but simply do not know what the alternatives are for student (instructional) use, and for professional (research) use. So, what do you use? Like it? Easy or difficult for students to use? for you to use? Does it do multiple regression? multi-factor mixed ANOVAs (especially with multiple within-subject variables)? Any help you can provide within the next day or so will be greatly appreciated. (And I'll even appreciate help that is provided after the next day or so!) Cheers! Bob Herdegen *** Robert T. Herdegen III Elliott Professor of Psychology Department of Psychology Hampden-Sydney College Hampden-Sydney, VA 23943 434-223-6166 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Stat Packages
Bob, We used to use SYSTAT. My memory is that it did all of the statistics that our seniors needed for their research projects. That would include all of the stats you named. (We did find a limitation, but I can't remember what it was, probably some kind of multivariate.) I have a flyer in my recycling bin that looks like itmight bevery reasonably priced. The flyer is promoting an Academic Partnering Program. Let us know what you decide to do. We might need to follow you when our bill for SPSS comes up this summer. I hope that you are doing well! Dennis -Original Message-From: Robert Herdegen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:24 PMTo: Teaching in the Psychological SciencesSubject: Stat Packages TIPSters: Periodically, someone on the list asks about what people are using as stat packages. This time it's my turn. We're having to figure out how to handle the dramatic price increases from SPSS and need to know about alternatives to SPSS, how well they work, and what they cost. I can do the legwork in finding out about costs, but simply do not know what the alternatives are for student (instructional) use, and for professional (research) use. So, what do you use? Like it? Easy or difficult for students to use? for you to use? Does it do multiple regression? multi-factor mixed ANOVAs (especially with multiple within-subject variables)? Any help you can provide within the next day or so will be greatly appreciated. (And I'll even appreciate help that is provided after the next day or so!) Cheers! Bob Herdegen *** Robert T. Herdegen III Elliott Professor of Psychology Department of Psychology Hampden-Sydney College Hampden-Sydney, VA 23943 434-223-6166 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stat Packages
Bob- You and others may want to check out the following site: http://openstat.homestead.com/OpenStatMain.html Bill Miller has written a FREE stat package that looks a lot like SPSS. It probably has all of the bells whistles that your students require. -Don. - Original Message - From: Dennis Goff To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 10:39 AM Subject: RE: Stat Packages Bob, We used to use SYSTAT. My memory is that it did all of the statistics that our seniors needed for their research projects. That would include all of the stats you named. (We did find a limitation, but I can't remember what it was, probably some kind of multivariate.) I have a flyer in my recycling bin that looks like itmight bevery reasonably priced. The flyer is promoting an Academic Partnering Program. Let us know what you decide to do. We might need to follow you when our bill for SPSS comes up this summer. I hope that you are doing well! Dennis -Original Message-From: Robert Herdegen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:24 PMTo: Teaching in the Psychological SciencesSubject: Stat Packages TIPSters: Periodically, someone on the list asks about what people are using as stat packages. This time it's my turn. We're having to figure out how to handle the dramatic price increases from SPSS and need to know about alternatives to SPSS, how well they work, and what they cost. I can do the legwork in finding out about costs, but simply do not know what the alternatives are for student (instructional) use, and for professional (research) use. So, what do you use? Like it? Easy or difficult for students to use? for you to use? Does it do multiple regression? multi-factor mixed ANOVAs (especially with multiple within-subject variables)? Any help you can provide within the next day or so will be greatly appreciated. (And I'll even appreciate help that is provided after the next day or so!) Cheers! Bob Herdegen *** Robert T. Herdegen III Elliott Professor of Psychology Department of Psychology Hampden-Sydney College Hampden-Sydney, VA 23943 434-223-6166 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Stat Packages
Robert: We have MINITAB on every college machine, and limited SPSS license for the psychology department. I have now switched over to MINITAB for nearly all teaching purposes. It does virtually everything. But for repeated measures and some post hoc/ planned comparison procedures I have to use SPSS. For everyday teaching and data analysis I prefer MINITAB, and I prefer its output. John W. Kulig Professor of Psychology Plymouth State College Plymouth NH 03264 Eat bread and salt and speak the truth Russian saying. -Original Message- From: Robert Herdegen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:24 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Subject: Stat Packages TIPSters: Periodically, someone on the list asks about what people are using as stat packages. This time it's my turn. We're having to figure out how to handle the dramatic price increases from SPSS and need to know about alternatives to SPSS, how well they work, and what they cost. I can do the legwork in finding out about costs, but simply do not know what the alternatives are for student (instructional) use, and for professional (research) use. So, what do you use? Like it? Easy or difficult for students to use? for you to use? Does it do multiple regression? multi-factor mixed ANOVAs (especially with multiple within-subject variables)? Any help you can provide within the next day or so will be greatly appreciated. (And I'll even appreciate help that is provided after the next day or so!) Cheers! Bob Herdegen *** Robert T. Herdegen III Elliott Professor of Psychology Department of Psychology Hampden-Sydney College Hampden-Sydney, VA 23943 434-223-6166 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stat Packages
Bob's surely correct that this problem is a perennial one. SPSS is very costly and more complex than we need for typical student instruction at the undergraduate level. At the same time, SPSS is probably the most commonly used package at the point that people are analyzing real research. Thus, the tension that we all feel when choosing a package with which to educate/train our students in statistical analysis on a computer. Because the folks who teach stats/experimental here at Skidmore are Mac users, we've got the double-whammy of looking for a good statistical package that also runs on Macs. Here are some of the alternatives that we're considering as we are about to shift from our much-appreciated StatView (no longer supported by SAS): Stata (stata.com): has different levels, but the lowest level would probably be sufficient from most instructional purposes ($375 + $49 per machine). Windows, Mac, and Unix. Appears to be very powerful (the lowest level is determined by the number of cases handled, not the analyses available). JMP (sas.com): seems sufficiently powerful, but may not be that cheap. (And I'm still annoyed that SAS took over StatView and SuperANOVA and then killed both of them!) Windows Mac. KaleidaGraph (synergy.com): a graphing package that actually has an adequate number of statistical analyses. Academic 10-user license is $990. Windows Mac. MacANOVA (http://www.stat.umn.edu/macanova/): Nice name, eh? It's not just for ANOVA and it's not just on Macs. Go figure. But it is free. Windows Mac (but not OSX, I fear). R (http://www.r-project.org/): a GNU project, free version of S. Windows, Mac, and Linux. You can actually find out a good deal about the available packages on the web. Joel West has kept track of these packages (especially for the Mac) and you can learn more at: http://homepage.mac.com/macstats/ http://www.unisanet.unisa.edu.au/10920/links/link_10.htm I hope that some of this info helps. Hugh On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 04:23 PM, Robert Herdegen wrote: TIPSters: Periodically, someone on the list asks about what people are using as stat packages. This time it's my turn. We're having to figure out how to handle the dramatic price increases from SPSS and need to know about alternatives to SPSS, how well they work, and what they cost. I can do the legwork in finding out about costs, but simply do not know what the alternatives are for student (instructional) use, and for professional (research) use. So, what do you use? Like it? Easy or difficult for students to use? for you to use? Does it do multiple regression? multi-factor mixed ANOVAs (especially with multiple within-subject variables)? Any help you can provide within the next day or so will be greatly appreciated. (And I'll even appreciate help that is provided after the next day or so!) Cheers! Bob Herdegen *** Robert T. Herdegen III Elliott Professor of Psychology Department of Psychology Hampden-Sydney College Hampden-Sydney, VA 23943 434-223-6166 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hugh J. Foley, Ph.D. Professor Department of Psychology Skidmore College Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 (518) 580-5308
Re: Stat Packages
on 3/6/03 4:23 PM, Robert Herdegen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TIPSters: Periodically, someone on the list asks about what people are using as stat packages. This time it's my turn. We're having to figure out how to handle the dramatic price increases from SPSS and need to know about alternatives to SPSS, how well they work, and what they cost. I can do the legwork in finding out about costs, but simply do not know what the alternatives are for student (instructional) use, and for professional (research) use. So, what do you use? Like it? Easy or difficult for students to use? for you to use? Does it do multiple regression? multi-factor mixed ANOVAs (especially with multiple within-subject variables)? Any help you can provide within the next day or so will be greatly appreciated. (And I'll even appreciate help that is provided after the next day or so!) Not what you're asking for probably, but: We went through this same issue, where the IT department claimed we needed to find a cheaper alternative to SPSS. We got enough faculty to respond that there was no better alternative, and we still have SPSS. We are a small school, but the site license for SPSS is affordable and well worth the cost. Sure there are other stats packages out there. But your IT department is supposed to be supporting your academic needs, rather than you succumbing to their budget constraints. Yeah, SPSS is expensive, but ask your budget people if they are actually committed to providing the best possible education for students. If you other faculty there are ok with a different stats package, fine; if not, don't give in. Sorry if that sounds confrontational, but I am tired of administrators telling me what computer platform and what software packages I should be using for instruction and research. It ain't their job to decide that; it's their job to provide, within their budget, what you need to do your job. John -- John Serafin Psychology Department Saint Vincent College Latrobe, PA 15650 [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stat Packages
I agree with John. A graduate will do better in a job interview or in applying for a research assistantship if he or she can claim a knowledge of SPSS rather than MINITAB or any of the others. If SPSS is practically useful for your students to know, then it should be available. Our campus has a magnetic resonance image device on site for the casual use of at most 10 physics majors (along with many other expensive machines for those 10 students). We have 30-50 seniors in psychology each year. Almost every one of them uses SPSS in the analysis of their senior thesis. Stat packages are tools and students should be given access to the tools that are used in the real world. I agree that they shoud be learning the principles and fundamentals of statistics. But if they can't show a familiarity and facility with professional tools, they will be at a disadvantage after graduation. Bill Scott - Original Message - From: John Serafin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Stat Packages on 3/6/03 4:23 PM, Robert Herdegen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TIPSters: Periodically, someone on the list asks about what people are using as stat packages. This time it's my turn. We're having to figure out how to handle the dramatic price increases from SPSS and need to know about alternatives to SPSS, how well they work, and what they cost. I can do the legwork in finding out about costs, but simply do not know what the alternatives are for student (instructional) use, and for professional (research) use. So, what do you use? Like it? Easy or difficult for students to use? for you to use? Does it do multiple regression? multi-factor mixed ANOVAs (especially with multiple within-subject variables)? Any help you can provide within the next day or so will be greatly appreciated. (And I'll even appreciate help that is provided after the next day or so!) Not what you're asking for probably, but: We went through this same issue, where the IT department claimed we needed to find a cheaper alternative to SPSS. We got enough faculty to respond that there was no better alternative, and we still have SPSS. We are a small school, but the site license for SPSS is affordable and well worth the cost. Sure there are other stats packages out there. But your IT department is supposed to be supporting your academic needs, rather than you succumbing to their budget constraints. Yeah, SPSS is expensive, but ask your budget people if they are actually committed to providing the best possible education for students. If you other faculty there are ok with a different stats package, fine; if not, don't give in. Sorry if that sounds confrontational, but I am tired of administrators telling me what computer platform and what software packages I should be using for instruction and research. It ain't their job to decide that; it's their job to provide, within their budget, what you need to do your job. John -- John Serafin Psychology Department Saint Vincent College Latrobe, PA 15650 [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
