Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
l be judged by the law. I see no statement about the spiritual condition of the Jews here at all. I assume a believing Jew would do the same thing but having access to God'slaw helps me so I figure it would also help them.Why would the Judaizers be coming to the Church at Rome on Sunday- they would be going to the Synagogue wouldn't they? And your out of context I Co 2:14 is really getting old. So unregenerated man cannot receive the things of God unless he is given the Holy Spirit of God -- right? RIGHT!! This is what Paul is teaching here and it would make things a whole lot easier for you if you accepted the fact. There are those who have the Spirit and are thereby regenerated and those who do not and are unregenerated. And the unregenerated cannot receive the things of God - nothing from God for all that God lays on us is spiritual -- right RIGHT. 1. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) 2. The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (2 Cor 3:17) 3. Satan the fallen angel is a spirit 4.Mankind are spirit beings (Zech 12:1) 5. The Law is spiritual (Rom 7:14) And this would include the Corinthians -- right?? I mean , the text says ".and even now, you are still not able" (I Co 3:2).So, why is he writing to them if they are not able to understand what he is saying? And how did they come to a knowledge of the truth in the first place ? And on what occasion do you KNOW that you are right and cannot be wrong, Judy y? How many times have you read the text, layed it down and said to yourself," I have no need to read this again for I know that I know ," Could you give me an example of a fewspecific scriptures that you understand to the point of never having to review those scriptures for "truth's" sake? Maybe just four or five scriptures. No JD, I couldn't give you anything because you and your theologians already KNOW IT ALL. And how many of these questions will you now ignore? If I had been sensible enough to read through the whole thing first I wouldn't have answered any of them because you are not sincerely wanting to know anything from me - you are just bloviating here and your mind is already made up. Its called "gatcha." Bless your heart, Judy. You are honest enough to allow the post to include your reponse just as it happened !!! Hats off. Most would have changed their first reponses. And you are wrong about my honesty. I would accept your point of view if I could answer my own queestions offered to you. But I cannot answer those questions using your theology either. You are cultish in your doctrine and blind to any possibility of change. That is NOT the leadership of the Spirit. If I were you JD, I'd go back to Barth. He is the one with all the answers, along with TFT, Polyani, etc... Why go back when I am doing so good with the biblical text ??!! I will await your answers. Still waiting. jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 03:24:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit Whatever JD; You asked the question, I just answered it. Maybe it's best for you to stick with Barth and leave Romans to those who understand Paul the apostle who is inspired by the Spirit of God. As I've said before scripture is 'spiritually discerned' 1 Cor 2:14. So my reason, your reason, and/or Barth's reasonings have nothing to do with anything, not anything important that is. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:25:25 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:42:37 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, you didn't answer the question. The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT a regeneratedindividual. How do we know this?This is a person who has never heard the preaching of the law of God (Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best, because it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law apart from any spirit influence or knowledge of the law. How do you know he had never heard the preaching of the cross of Christ? He just didn't have the Law the way that the Jews did. The point of Romans 2 is the contrast between the have's and the have not's. The Gentiles are those who outside God's revelation and the Jews are those who are in. He is speaking to the Church in Rome JD; all believers are in and in Christ there is no separation between these ppl so why are you making one here? I am making one because Paul did. CAn't you read? He is the one who speaks of G-E-N-T-I-L-E-S and J-E-W and and contrasts them in terms of hearing the law and not having heard the law. You deny this? Paul begins with this scenario. Now I know that this is no longer true - but Paul is using this very distinction to teach that in Christ's economy, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is no longer important. Not only unimportant, it is no longer there unless the Jews are still practicing Judaism.Remember this is written in 57 AD 24yrs after the cross and in Rom 2:11 Paul announces thatGod shows NOpartiality. "non-partiality" IS NOT the theme of this section of Romans 2, Judy ..inwardness verses the letter of the law is, hearing versus doing. In the passage THE GENTILE IS ONLY ONE DOING THE WUILL OF GOD BY NATURE..the Jew is not. T he Gentile - typically speaking - is not God's chosen while the Jewis -- typically speaking . Using this stereotype, Paul makes the point that is most shocking to the Jewish Christian in Rome.. hearing is notthe most important issue doing is. Why would Paul contradict (by what you see as a stereotype) what he had just said in Vs.11 JD? This makes no sense at all. The Jews had been trying to do God's Law since Moses came downfrom Mt. Sinai unsuccessfully. Judy, in Romans 2:23, who is NOT keeping the law -- the Jew or the Gentile? And who is doing the deeds of the law by "nature?" The contrast of hearing and doing is unmistakable in 2:13-14. Hence, the Gentile has not heard the law. It is not there JD, you are reading this into the text. This is the perfect example of bias overwhelming reason. Youareso convinced of the notion that unregenerated man cannot understand the will of God nor accomplish anything good that you cannot see what is being said here in Romans 2: 11ff. You don't see the words "Gentiles" and "Jew" in this text? You don't see the words "by nature" associated with the Gentiles only in this passage? You can't see this? It's the old "us vs them" mentality that is accepted in many church circles. Think about it in light of the fall of man and the old sin nature How is an unregenerate gentile who has never heard God's Law going to do it by nature? They would not even know what to do - never having been told. As far as unregenerated man not being able to do good -- why did Jonahgoto Nineveh? Jonah was a prophet who had a ministry gift working in his life which he was trying to run from. Judy, you chuck and jive, giving no answers because your theology has no answers. It is empty. NEWS FLASH: NINEVEH REPENTED. The Roman believer (Jew or gentile) would have to be regenerated to 'DO BY NATURE' what is written in God's Law. Love is the fulfillment of the law and an unregenerated gentile would be unable to do this. Paul was speaking to the Churchat Rome wasn't he? Not in Romans 2.He was addressing the Judaizing legalists of the Roman church in chapters 2, 3, 4. Nohe wasn't JD; the letter begins with an introduction and then in Vs.7 Paul writes "To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints ... this is who the letter is written to -the called out ones. Chapters 2,3,4 and 5 will have special import to the Jew. Romans 2:23 is a question of the Jewish Christian only, Judy. And , as often as not, he fails in this doing , by the way.If the phrase "by nature" means to include the indwelling of the Spirit, then the Jew in this passage DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT, for he is clearly NOT doing the law "by nature." Your theology of Ro 2 has the Jew , in this passage lost and without the Spirit. But, of course, you do not believe that a nd so away you go. My so called theology is not judging any Jew one way or the other. I
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:05:10 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, you didn't answer the question. The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT a regeneratedindividual. How do we know this?This is a person who has never heard the preaching of the law of God (Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best, because it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law apart from any spirit influence or knowledge of the law. You have changed the wording of Vs.14 from "When gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires" - to "naturally" obeying the law JD. Why?How do you know they never heard the preaching of the cross of Christ? The point of Romans 2 is the contrast between the have's and the have not's. The Gentiles are those who outside God's revelation and the Jews are those who are in. He is speaking to the Church in Rome JD; all believers are in and in Christ there is no separation between these ppl so why are you making one here? I am making one because Paul did. CAn't you read? He is the one who speaks of G-E-N-T-I-L-E-S and J-E-W and and contrasts them in terms of hearing the law and not having heard the law. You deny this? Only to make his larger point which is what he begins the 2nd chapter of Romans with, which is "therefore you have no excuse O man whoever you are for judging another - he then goes on to explain God's kindness which is meant to lead them to repentance and/or God's righteous judgment" His point is NOT racial differences. Paul begins with this scenario. Now I know that this is no longer true - but Paul is using this very distinction to teach that in Christ's economy, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is no longer important. Not only unimportant, it is no longer there unless the Jews are still practicing Judaism.Remember this is written in 57 AD 24yrs after the cross and in Rom 2:11 Paul announces thatGod shows NO partiality. "non-partiality" IS NOT the theme of this section of Romans 2, Judy ..inwardness verses the letter of the law is, hearing versus doing. In the passage THE GENTILE IS ONLY ONE DOING THE WUILL OF GOD BY NATURE..the Jew is not. He does go onin the rest of chapter2 to contrast teaching the law to others while neglecting to obey it themselves dishonors God and makes them lawbreakers which is curious in the light of your teaching JD which is thatfollowing the cross the law is no more. The Gentile - typically speaking - is not God's chosen while the Jewis -- typically speaking . Using this stereotype, Paul makes the point that is most shocking to the Jewish Christian in Rome hearing is notthe most important issue doing is. Why would Paul contradict (by what you see as a stereotype) what he had just said in Vs.11 JD? This makes no sense at all. The Jews had been trying to do God's Law since Moses came down from Mt. Sinai unsuccessfully. Judy, in Romans 2:23, who is NOT keeping the law -- the Jew or the Gentile? And who is doing the deeds of the law by "nature?" How did we get to Vs.23? I thought we were discussing Romans 2:14,15? Arn't you a bit ahead of yourself? Oh well! Let's just look at Paul's summary in Vs.29 which is "He is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God. OK so the gentiles were able to do the law because they had circumcized hearts. IOW they were born of the Spirit so they were able to do "by nature" what is required by God's Law. The contrast of hearing and doing is unmistakable in 2:13-14. Hence, the Gentile has not heard the law. It is not there JD, you are reading this into the text. This is the perfect example of bias overwhelming reason. Youareso convinced of the notion that unregenerated man cannot understand the will of God nor accomplish anything good that you cannot see what is being said here in Romans 2: 11ff. You don't see the words "Gentiles" and "Jew" in this text? You don't see the words "by nature" associated with the Gentiles only in this passage? You can't see this? Yes I can see the words JD - and I can understand them. There is nothing in the text about whether or not the gentiles who are by nature doing what is required in the law have or have not heard the preaching of the gospel. You have theold "us vs them" mentality that is accepted in many church circles. Think about it in light of the fall of man and the old sin nature How is an unregenerate gentile who has never heard of God's Law going to do what is required in it by their pagan nature? As far as unregenerated man not being able to do good -- why did Jonahgoto Nineveh? Jonah was a prophet who had a ministry gift working in his life which he was trying to run from.
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
Actually, you didn't answer the question. The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT a regeneratedindividual. How do we know this?This is a person who has never heard the preaching of the law of God (Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best, because it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law apart from any spirit influence or knowledge of the law. And , as often as not, he fails in this doing , by the way.If the phrase "by nature" means to include the indwelling of the Spirit, then the Jew in this passage DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT, for he is clearly NOT doing the law "by nature." Your theology of Ro 2 has the Jew , in this passage lost and without the Spirit. But, of course, you do not believe that a nd so away you go. And your out of context I Co 2:14 is really getting old. So unregenerated man cannot receive the things of God unless he is given the Holy Spirit of God -- right? There are those who have the Spirit and are thereby regenerated and those who do not and are unregenerated. And the unregenerated cannot receive the things of God - nothing from God for all that God lays on us is spiritual -- right And this would include the Corinthians -- right?? I mean , the text says ".and even now, you are still not able" (I Co 3:2).So, why is he writing to them if they are not able to understand what he is saying? And how did they come to a knowledge of the truth in the first place ? And on what occasion do you KNOW that you are right and cannot be wrong, Jud y? How many times have you read the text, layed it down and said to yourself," I have no need to read this again for I know that I know ," Could you give me an example of a fewspecific scriptures that you understand to the point of never having to review those scriptures for "truth's" sake? Maybe just four or five scriptures. And how many of these questions will you now ignore? You are cultish in your doctrine and blind to any possibility of change. That is NOT the leadership of the Spirit. I will await your answers. jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 03:24:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit Whatever JD; You asked the question, I just answered it. Maybe it's best for you to stick with Barth and leave Romans to those who understand Paul the apostle who is inspired by the Spirit of God. As I've said before scripture is 'spiritually discerned' 1 Cor 2:14. So my reason, your reason, and/or Barth's reasonings have nothing to do with anything, not anything important that is.
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:42:37 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, you didn't answer the question. The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT a regeneratedindividual. How do we know this?This is a person who has never heard the preaching of the law of God (Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best, because it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law apart from any spirit influence or knowledge of the law. How do you know he had never heard the preaching of the cross of Christ? He just didn't have the Law the way that the Jews did.He would have to be regenerated to 'DO BY NATURE' what is written in God's Law. Love is the fulfillment of the law and the unregenerated gentile would be unable to do this. Paul was speaking to the Church at Rome wasn't he? And , as often as not, he fails in this doing , by the way.If the phrase "by nature" means to include the indwelling of the Spirit, then the Jew in this passage DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT, for he is clearly NOT doing the law "by nature." Your theology of Ro 2 has the Jew , in this passage lost and without the Spirit. But, of course, you do not believe that a nd so away you go. My so called theology is not judging any Jew one way or the other. I assume a believing Jew would do the same thing but having access to God'slaw helps me so I figure it would also help them.Why would the Judaizers be coming to the Church at Rome on Sunday- they would be going to the Synagogue wouldn't they? And your out of context I Co 2:14 is really getting old. So unregenerated man cannot receive the things of God unless he is given the Holy Spirit of God -- right? RIGHT!! This is what Paul is teaching here and it would make things a whole lot easier for you if you accepted the fact. There are those who have the Spirit and are thereby regenerated and those who do not and are unregenerated. And the unregenerated cannot receive the things of God - nothing from God for all that God lays on us is spiritual -- right RIGHT. 1. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) 2. The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (2 Cor 3:17) 3.Mankind are spirit beings (Zech 12:1) 4. The Law is spiritual (Rom 7:14) And this would include the Corinthians -- right?? I mean , the text says ".and even now, you are still not able" (I Co 3:2).So, why is he writing to them if they are not able to understand what he is saying? And how did they come to a knowledge of the truth in the first place ? And on what occasion do you KNOW that you are right and cannot be wrong, Jud y? How many times have you read the text, layed it down and said to yourself," I have no need to read this again for I know that I know ," Could you give me an example of a fewspecific scriptures that you understand to the point of never having to review those scriptures for "truth's" sake? Maybe just four or five scriptures. No JD, I couldn't give you anything because you and your theologians already KNOW IT ALL. And how many of these questions will you now ignore? If I had been sensible enough to read through the whole thing first I wouldn't have answered any of them because you are not sincerely wanting to know anything from me - you are just bloviating here and your mind is already made up. You are cultish in your doctrine and blind to any possibility of change. That is NOT the leadership of the Spirit. If I were you JD, I'd go back to Barth. He is the one with all the answers, along with TFT, Polyani, etc... I will await your answers. jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 03:24:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit Whatever JD; You asked the question, I just answered it. Maybe it's best for you to stick with Barth and leave Romans to those who understand Paul the apostle who is inspired by the Spirit of God. As I've said before scripture is 'spiritually discerned' 1 Cor 2:14. So my reason, your reason, and/or Barth's reasonings have nothing to do with anything, not anything important that is. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:08:33 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:42:37 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, you didn't answer the question. The gentile in Romans 2 IS NOT a regeneratedindividual. How do we know this?This is a person who has never heard the preaching of the law of God (Paul contrasts hearing with doing in this context) AND his salvation is tenuous , at best, because it is based solely upon his ability to "naturally" obey the law apart from any spirit influence or knowledge of the law. How do you know he had never heard the preaching of the cross of Christ? He just didn't have the Law the way that the Jews did.The point of Romans 2 is the contrast between the have's and the have not's. The Gentiles are those who outside God's revelation and the Jews are those who are in. Paul begins with this scenario. Now I know that this is no longer true - but Paul is using this very distinction to teach that in Christ's economy, the distinction between Jew and Gentile is no longer important.T he Gentile - typically speaking - is not God's chosen while the Jewis -- typically speaking . Using this stereotype, Paul makes the point that is most shocking to the Jewish Christian in Rome.. hearing is notthe most important issue doing is. The contrast of hearing and doing is unmistakable in 2:13-14. Hence, the Gentile has not heard the law. As far as unregenerated man not being able to do good -- why did Jonahgoto Nineveh? He would have to be regenerated to 'DO BY NATURE' what is written in God's Law. Love is the fulfillment of the law and the unregenerated gentile would be unable to do this. Paul was speaking to the Churchat Rome wasn't he?Not in Romans 2. He was addressing the Judaizing legalists of the Roman church in chapters 2, 3, 4. And , as often as not, he fails in this doing , by the way.If the phrase "by nature" means to include the indwelling of the Spirit, then the Jew in this passage DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT, for he is clearly NOT doing the law "by nature." Your theology of Ro 2 has the Jew , in this passage lost and without the Spirit. But, of course, you do not believe that a nd so away you go. My so called theology is not judging any Jew one way or the other.I am not talking about judging the Jew, Judy. I am talking about your theology. First, you imply that "by nature" means the new nature, but then,in this passage only the Gentile has this "nature" thing going for him which means that the Jew does not. Paul is making a contrast between what is done "by nature" and what is not. You simply cannot sneak the Holy Spirit into any of this without serious contextual problems -- one of which I have mentioned. "By nature" simply cannot mean to include the "new nature." I assume a believing Jew would do the same thing but having access to God'slaw helps me so I figure it would also help them.Why would the Judaizers be coming to the Church at Rome on Sunday- they would be going to the Synagogue wouldn't they? And your out of context I Co 2:14 is really getting old. So unregenerated man cannot receive the things of God unless he is given the Holy Spirit of God -- right? RIGHT!! This is what Paul is teaching here and it would make things a whole lot easier for you if you accepted the fact. There are those who have the Spirit and are thereby regenerated and those who do not and are unregenerated. And the unregenerated cannot receive the things of God - nothing from God for all that God lays on us is spiritual -- right RIGHT. 1. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) 2. The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty (2 Cor 3:17) 3.Mankind are spirit beings (Zech 12:1) 4. The Law is spiritual (Rom 7:14) And this would include the Corinthians -- right?? I mean , the text says ".and even now, you are still not able" (I Co 3:2).So, why is he writing to them if they are not able to understand what he is saying? And how did they come to a knowledge of the truth in the first place ? And on what occasion do you KNOW that you are right and cannot be wrong, Judy y? How many times have you read the text, layed it down and said to yourself," I have no need to read this again for I know that I know ," Could you give me an example of a fewspecific scriptures that you understand to the point of never having to review those scriptures for "truth's" sake? Maybe just four or five scriptures. No JD, I couldn't give you anything because you and your theologians already KNOW IT ALL. And how many of these questions will you now ignore? If I had been sensible enough to read through the whole thing first I wouldn't have answered any of them because you are not sincerely wanting
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
Oophs, typo, I meant Romans 2:14,15. When we become partakers of the 'divine nature' by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are enabled to do by nature what is required by God's Law. That is, when we choose to walk after the Spirit rather than follow the lusts of the old flesh nature. On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:44:07 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You speak as if the Holy Sprit indwelling and the "..law written on their hearts" are two different things. What exactly do you mean when you, Judy Taylor, speak of the law written on your heart? Memorization or what? No JD, it's too much for the old unregenerated mind - the law is spiritual - When we are in Christ and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ we like the ppl in Romans 2:14,15 do by nature the thingsrequired by God's Law. What ever it means, we do know that it cannot be the same experienceas those under theMosaical Law. Is it the Holy Spirit 's influence - but you make a difference between the two. If this "law" has to do with various and multiple commandments, how are they written on our hearts in a way different from the Old Law? I honestly have no idea how you might answer this question. I have no answer and that is why I reject (up to this point in time) the notion that the "law written on our hearts" is talking about law as opposed to the rule of the Spirit. jd Careful JD, if you reject everything in scripture that you don't comprehend mentally then pretty soon you will have to throw out the whole Book. jtFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com In OT days they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, nor did they have God's Law written on their hearts. They lived in a theocracy and Moses had to gather the ppl, men, women, and children and read God's Law to them every seven years. jt On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:21:12 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How is this different from OT days Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ??? jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:11:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven? How is this different from OT days Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ??? jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 05:09:54 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven? Why do we need scripture? Yes the born again/spirit filled believer is given the measure of faith - Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts But let's look at our example, the Head of the Church, the one we are to follow During His earthly ministry Jesus walked in all this too; in fact He walked in the fulness of the Spirit When confronted by the adversary - What was His defense? It is written, It is written, It is written. No wonder the professing church is so weak. You would rather do it any way but learn from Him. If anyone speaks not according to THIS WORD there is no light of day for him (Isa 8:20) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You haven't read the book either !!! This is what is so great about you and Judy. First -- you twodisagree on a number of points --but, like you, I willignore that for timebeing.In addition to the Inspired Version doctrine, and theInerrant Understanding didache, you two also believe that you can condemn a book without having read it , not to mention that you know of the personal judgments of God.With those qualifications, why do we even need the Bible? We certainly don't need preachers, pastors and teacher -- I mean the Holy Spirit will take care of all that - right? But ignore these questions, as well. Your peace of mind just migh t be at stake. jd - judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
Me again.-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 23:10:54 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:44:07 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
You speak as if the Holy Sprit indwelling and the "..law written on their hearts" are two different things.
What exactly do you mean when you, Judy Taylor, speak of the law written on your heart? Memorization or what?
No JD, it's too much for the old unregenerated mind - the law is spiritual - When we are in Christ and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ we like the ppl in Romans 1:14,15 do by nature the thingsrequired by God's Law.
You have not explained how your version of legal inwardness is different from that of the OT opportunity for same. Secondly,you misunderstand Romans , chapter 2 (you meant 2:14-,15 correct ?).The "Gentiles" in that passage are not regenerated anything. You only say that because your bias orders you to do so.
Look at what you say !! The "Gentile" (according to you) is anyone and everyone who has the indwelling Holy Spirit. He is one who has received the new nature and , therefore, does by nature the things of the Law.
So -- who is the Jew in this passage? He is obviously not like the rest of us. If the Gentile is the Holy Ghost inhabited disciple of God - who is this Jew guy? And , if the Gentile is the one withthe Holy Spirit, who does by nature the things of the Law - how is it that he might be lost ("...conscience either excusing or accusing .")? And what of 2:12? The "Gentile" in this passage, according to Judy, is the saved individual (having the indwelling Holy Spirit). He is judged by onestandardand the Jew (Christian?) is judged by another.
It is so much easier to just accept the text for what it says.
What ever it means, we do know that it cannot be the same experienceas those under theMosaical Law. Is it the Holy Spirit 's influence - but you make a difference between the two. If this "law" has to do with various and multiple commandments, how are they written on our hearts in a way different from the Old Law? I honestly have no idea how you might answer this question. I have no answer and that is why I reject (up to this point in time) the notion that the "law written on our hearts" is talking about law as opposed to the rule of the Spirit. jd
Careful JD, if you reject everything in scripture that you don't comprehend mentally then pretty soon you will have to throw out the whole Book. jtI can't reject what I don't comprehend, Judy. You are such an avowed anti-intellectual that it is scary. And, what is almost funny about your anti-intellectual stance is that you rely so much on yourown brand of intellectualism. It is startling to me, justhow little you use scripture to get from point A to point B. "Discernment," my dear, is the single most lacking quality you possess!!!
In OT days they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, nor did they have
God's Law written on their hearts. They lived in a theocracy and Moses had to
gather the ppl, men, women, and children and read God's Law to them every
seven years. jt
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:21:12 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
How is this different from OT days
Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ???
jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
So the Jew , in Ro 2, is the one who is lost? !! I mean, he is not doing the law "by nature." Crazy.-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 05:45:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit Oophs, typo, I meant Romans 2:14,15. When we become partakers of the 'divine nature' by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are enabled to do by nature what is required by God's Law. That is, when we choose to walk after the Spirit rather than follow the lusts of the old flesh nature.
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:26:28 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Me again.JD
writes: You speak as if the Holy Sprit indwelling and the "..law written on
their hearts" are two different things. What exactly do you mean
when you, Judy Taylor, speak of the law written on your
heart? Memorization or what?
No JD,
it's too much for the old unregenerated
mind - the law is spiritual - When we are in Christ and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ we like the ppl in Romans 2:14,15 do by nature the thingsrequired by
God's Law.
You have not explained how your
version of legal inwardness is different from that of the OT opportunity for same.
OT people had noSpirit of
Christ indwelling them JD; they were to keep the Levitical Law along with
God's moral laws.
Secondly,you
misunderstand Romans , chapter 2 (you meant 2:14-,15 correct
?).The "Gentiles" in that passage are not regenerated
anything.
There is no way an unregenerated
person either OT or NT is able to fulfill God's
law "by nature" JD. Read about
their natures in Ephesians 2. Children of wrath.
Now tell me how you figure.
Makes no sense. You arein Calvin's mode -
OTOH
saying unregenerate man is by
nature totally depraved and the next minute claiming that
they can also"by nature" fulfill
God's law - something only Jesus
had accomplished pre
Calvary.
You only say that because your bias
orders you to do so.
If you want to call it that - OK
then.My scriptural bias compelsme to do
it.
Look at what you say
!! The "Gentile" (according to you) is anyone and everyone
who has the indwelling Holy
Spirit. He is one who has received the new nature and ,
therefore, does by nature the things of the Law.
Remember I did say the regenerated
gentile who is walking after the Spirit JD.
Don't leave anything
out.
So -- who is the Jew in
this passage? He is obviously not like the rest of
us. If the Gentile is the Holy Ghost inhabited disciple of
God - who is this Jew guy?
He is either a disciple of Christ
who is also indwelt by the Spirit of God - remember
in Christ there is no Jew, Greek,
bond, or free. All are one. Or he is a
legalistic
Judaiser who is still under bondage
to the sacrificial law.
And , if the Gentile is the one
withthe Holy Spirit, who does by nature the things of the Law
- how is it that he might be lost
("...conscience either
excusing or accusing .")?
That does not refer to saved/lost
JD. When a Christian's conscience excuses them
they go on their way
rejoicing. When accused by the conscience it is time to go
to
the throne of grace and do some
business with God. Time to repent.
And what of 2:12? The
"Gentile" in this passage, according to Judy, is the saved individual
(having the indwelling Holy
Spirit). He is judged by
onestandardand the
Jew (Christian?)
is judged by
another.
I didn't say anything of the kind
JD. The above is your construction and yours
alone
Please stop putting words in my
mouth. I can speak for myself, thank you.
It is so much easier to just accept
the text for what it says.
Yes, then you don't have to cut
anything out or try to manipulate any passages.
What ever it means, we do know that it cannot be the same
experienceas those under theMosaical Law. Is it the
Holy Spirit 's influence - but you make a difference
between the two. If this "law" has to do with various and
multiple commandments, how are they written on our hearts in a way
different from the Old Law? I honestly have no idea how you
might answer this question. I have no answer
and that is why I reject (up to this point in time) the notion that the "law
written on our hearts" is talking about law as opposed to the
rule of the Spirit. jd
Careful JD, if you reject everything in scripture that
you don't comprehend mentally then pretty soon you will have to throw out the whole
Book. jtI can't
reject what I don't comprehend, Judy. You are
such an avowed anti-intellectual that it is scary. And,
what is almost funny about your anti-intellectual stance is that you rely so
much on yourown brand of intellectualism. It is startling to me,
justhow little you use scripture to get from point A to
point B. "Discernment," my dear, is the single most
lacking quality you possess!!!
In OT days they did not have the Holy
Spirit indwelling them, nor did they have
God's Law written on their hearts. They lived
in a theocracy and Moses had to
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
-Original Message-From: KnpraiseTo: KnpraiseSent: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:42:20 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
Lets not discuss this one. You have no grasp of what is being said. For example, Paul speaks of the Gentile and the Jew in this passage. I ask a question about the two, and you fire back that there is no longer Jew and Gentile. I must say, Judy, that your line of reasonhas markedly declined over the past year. You have moved from being simply difficult, to difficult to understand, to just plain ... well .. I am not sure I have the words to express it.I will leave it at that.
-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:14:40 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:26:28 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Me again.JD writes: You speak as if the Holy Sprit indwelling and the "..law written on their hearts" are two different things. What exactly do you mean when you, Judy Taylor, speak of the law written on your heart? Memorization or what?
No JD, it's too much for the old unregenerated mind - the law is spiritual - When we are in Christ and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ we like the ppl in Romans 2:14,15 do by nature the thingsrequired by God's Law.
You have not explained how your version of legal inwardness is different from that of the OT opportunity for same.
OT people had noSpirit of Christ indwelling them JD; they were to keep the Levitical Law along with God's moral laws.
Secondly,you misunderstand Romans , chapter 2 (you meant 2:14-,15 correct ?).The "Gentiles" in that passage are not regenerated anything.
There is no way an unregenerated person either OT or NT is able to fulfill God's
law "by nature" JD. Read about their natures in Ephesians 2. Children of wrath.
Now tell me how you figure. Makes no sense. You arein Calvin's mode - OTOH
saying unregenerate man is by nature totally depraved and the next minute claiming that they can also"by nature" fulfill God's law - something only Jesus
had accomplished pre Calvary.
You only say that because your bias orders you to do so.
If you want to call it that - OK then.My scriptural bias compelsme to do it.
Look at what you say !! The "Gentile" (according to you) is anyone and everyone who has the indwelling Holy Spirit. He is one who has received the new nature and , therefore, does by nature the things of the Law.
Remember I did say the regenerated gentile who is walking after the Spirit JD.
Don't leave anything out.
So -- who is the Jew in this passage? He is obviously not like the rest of us. If the Gentile is the Holy Ghost inhabited disciple of God - who is this Jew guy?
He is either a disciple of Christ who is also indwelt by the Spirit of God - remember
in Christ there is no Jew, Greek, bond, or free. All are one. Or he is a legalistic
Judaiser who is still under bondage to the sacrificial law.
And , if the Gentile is the one withthe Holy Spirit, who does by nature the things of the Law - how is it that he might be lost ("...conscience either excusing or accusing .")?
That does not refer to saved/lost JD. When a Christian's conscience excuses them
they go on their way rejoicing. When accused by the conscience it is time to go to
the throne of grace and do some business with God. Time to repent.
And what of 2:12? The "Gentile" in this passage, according to Judy, is the saved individual (having the indwelling Holy Spirit). He is judged by onestandardand the Jew (Christian?) is judged by another.
I didn't say anything of the kind JD. The above is your construction and yours alone
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I can speak for myself, thank you.
It is so much easier to just accept the text for what it says.
Yes, then you don't have to cut anything out or try to manipulate any passages.
What ever it means, we do know that it cannot be the same experienceas those under theMosaical Law. Is it the Holy Spirit 's influence - but you make a difference between the two. If this "law" has to do with various and multiple commandments, how are they written on our hearts in a way different from the Old Law? I honestly have no idea how you might answer this question. I have no answer and that is why I reject (up to this point in time) the notion that the "law written on our hearts" is talking about law as opposed to the rule of the Spirit. jd
Careful JD, if you reject everything in scripture that you don't comprehend mentally then pretty soon you will have to throw out the whole Book. jtI can't reject what I don't comprehend, Judy. You are such an avowed anti-intellectual that it is scary. And, what is almost funny about your anti-intellectual stance is that you rely so much on yourown brand of intellectualism. It is startling to me, justhow little yo
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:15:16 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven? You speak as if the Holy Sprit indwelling and the "..law written on their hearts" are two different things. What exactly do you mean when you, Judy Taylor, speak of the law written on your heart? Memorization or what? What ever it means, we do know that it cannot be the same experienceas those under theMosaical Law. Is it the Holy Spirit 's influence - but you make a difference between the two. If this "law" has to do with various and multiple commandments, how are they written on our hearts in a way different from the Old Law? I honestly have no idea how you might answer this question. I have no answer and that is why I reject (up to this point in time) the notion that the "law written on our hearts" is talking about law as opposed to the rule of the Spirit. jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:46:30 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven? In OT days they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, nor did they have God's Law written on their hearts. They lived in a theocracy and Moses had to gather the ppl, men, women, and children and read God's Law to them every seven years. jt On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:21:12 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How is this different from OT days Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ??? jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:11:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven? How is this different from OT days Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ??? jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 05:09:54 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven? Why do we need scripture? Yes the born again/spirit filled believer is given the measure of faith - Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts But let's look at our example, the Head of the Church, the one we are to follow During His earthly ministry Jesus walked in all this too; in fact He walked in the fulness of the Spirit When confronted by the adversary - What was His defense? It is written, It is written, It is written. No wonder the professing church is so weak. You would rather do it any way but learn from Him. If anyone speaks not according to THIS WORD there is no light of day for him (Isa 8:20) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You haven't read the book either !!! This is what is so great about you and Judy. First -- you twodisagree on a number of points --but, like you, I willignore that for timebeing.In addition to the Inspired Version doctrine, and theInerrant Understanding didache, you two also believe that you can condemn a book without having read it , not to mention that you know of the personal judgments of God.With those qualifications, why do we even need the Bible? We certainly don't need preachers, pastors and teacher -- I mean the Holy Spirit will take care of all that - right? But ignore these questions, as well. Your peace of mind just migh t be at stake. jd - judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:44:07 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You speak as if the Holy Sprit indwelling and the "..law written on their hearts" are two different things. What exactly do you mean when you, Judy Taylor, speak of the law written on your heart? Memorization or what? No JD, it's too much for the old unregenerated mind - the law is spiritual - When we are in Christ and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ we like the ppl in Romans 1:14,15 do by nature the thingsrequired by God's Law. What ever it means, we do know that it cannot be the same experienceas those under theMosaical Law. Is it the Holy Spirit 's influence - but you make a difference between the two. If this "law" has to do with various and multiple commandments, how are they written on our hearts in a way different from the Old Law? I honestly have no idea how you might answer this question. I have no answer and that is why I reject (up to this point in time) the notion that the "law written on our hearts" is talking about law as opposed to the rule of the Spirit. jd Careful JD, if you reject everything in scripture that you don't comprehend mentally then pretty soon you will have to throw out the whole Book. jtFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com In OT days they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, nor did they have God's Law written on their hearts. They lived in a theocracy and Moses had to gather the ppl, men, women, and children and read God's Law to them every seven years. jt On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:21:12 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How is this different from OT days Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ??? jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:11:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven? How is this different from OT days Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ??? jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 05:09:54 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven? Why do we need scripture? Yes the born again/spirit filled believer is given the measure of faith - Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts But let's look at our example, the Head of the Church, the one we are to follow During His earthly ministry Jesus walked in all this too; in fact He walked in the fulness of the Spirit When confronted by the adversary - What was His defense? It is written, It is written, It is written. No wonder the professing church is so weak. You would rather do it any way but learn from Him. If anyone speaks not according to THIS WORD there is no light of day for him (Isa 8:20) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You haven't read the book either !!! This is what is so great about you and Judy. First -- you twodisagree on a number of points --but, like you, I willignore that for timebeing.In addition to the Inspired Version doctrine, and theInerrant Understanding didache, you two also believe that you can condemn a book without having read it , not to mention that you know of the personal judgments of God.With those qualifications, why do we even need the Bible? We certainly don't need preachers, pastors and teacher -- I mean the Holy Spirit will take care of all that - right? But ignore these questions, as well. Your peace of mind just migh t be at stake. jd - judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
