[TruthTalk] Salvation for all
John S. wrote to Judy: I have no idea why you say the above. There is absolutely no evidence contextually that I can see for concluding that the Gentile of Romans 2 is born again. He is one who has heard nothing. blessed is he who does but has not heard. Hearers are not justified before God. That is a misunderstanding of modern Christianity, that if you hear the gospel, then you are saved. Paul is arguing in Romans that the Gentiles were DOING the law while the Jews were only HEARERS of the law. His argument is that the Gentiles who did not have the LAW (were not hearers of the law) but were DOERS of the law, would surely be justified before God. Read the passage again now: Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) What Gentiles DO the law as a result of the law being written upon their hearts? BORN AGAIN GENTILES. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:33-34 KJV) John S. wrote: When the Jewish patron left the altar of sacrifice, he was not protected from sin. Can you elaborate upon this? What do you mean? Didn't Job have a hedge of protection about him that Satan complained about? John S. wrote: As a result, sin offering had to be made over and over again, of course. The repetitive nature of sacrifices had to do with the fact that the conscience was never dealt with in these sacrifices. No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place, the worshippers never really felt forgiven, so they kept doing it over and over again. John S. wrote: The blood of Christ is linear in scope and accomplishment. What do you mean by linear? John S. wrote: In regard to the conscience -- do you have a scripture in mind for that statement? I assume she has the book of Hebrews in mind. The sacrifices of Moses could not make us perfect, but the sacrifice of Christ did. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; (Hebrews 9:8-9 KJV) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. (Hebrews 7:19 KJV) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Salvation for all
In a message dated 4/30/2004 6:31:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hearers are not justified before God. That is a misunderstanding of modern Christianity, that if you hear the gospel, then you are saved. Paul is arguing in Romans that the Gentiles were DOING the law while the Jews were only HEARERS of the law. His argument is that the Gentiles who did not have the LAW (were not hearers of the law) but were DOERS of the law, would surely be justified before God. Read the passage again now: That is not what the passage says. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature the things of the law is the picture given in Romans 2. To be more specific -- Paul includes those who have never heard the law. Christ tells us the whole law is fulfilled in two command and I believe these can be known instinctively (loving God and loving our neighbor). David says: What Gentiles DO the law as a result of the law being written upon their hearts? BORN AGAIN GENTILES. John replies: You make this conclusion, not scripture. Scripture clearly tells us which Gentiles do by nature the things of the law -- it those in this example who have not heard the law and its requirements. If these were born again Christians there would be no question as to their salvation -- but salvation is not a sure thing in this passage .. compare Romans 2:15 and the stated option in regard to judgment day. David writes: John S. wrote: When the Jewish patron left the altar of sacrifice, he was not protected from sin. Can you elaborate upon this? What do you mean? Didn't Job have a hedge of protection about him that Satan complained about? John replies: What God accomplished for a particular individual does not a theology make. Are you in disagreement with my statement? Do you believe that the offering of bulls and goats afforded linear protection for the OT patron? David writes: The repetitive nature of sacrifices had to do with the fact that the conscience was never dealt with in these sacrifices. No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place, the worshippers never really felt forgiven, so they kept doing it over and over again. John replies: Whether or not this is a biblical observation is beside the point. When you write "No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place " are you admitting that forgiveness did take place and was specific in scope rather than on-going --- because that is my point. David writes: What do you mean by linear? John replies: I find it interesting that we had that big "discussion" regarding "linear" sometime back (IJo 1:8) and you don't know what "linear" means continual action with no end in sight. David writes: John S. wrote: In regard to the conscience -- do you have a scripture in mind for that statement? I assume she has the book of Hebrews in mind. The sacrifices of Moses could not make us perfect, but the sacrifice of Christ did. John replies: Good guess and I would agree. And what does that have to do with Paul's presentation in Romans 2. Did you miss the point I made about Paul saying one thing and the Hebrew writer saying something else? In His Grace John
RE: [TruthTalk] Salvation for all
David Miller wrote: His argument is that the Gentiles who did not have the LAW (were not hearers of the law) but were DOERS of the law, would surely be justified before God. Read the passage again now: John S. wrote: That is not what the passage says. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature the things of the law is the picture given in Romans 2. To be more specific -- Paul includes those who have never heard the law. I think that is what I just said. The Gentiles, who had never heard the law, were doers of the law, having the law written upon their hearts. What Gentiles have the law written upon their hearts and are doers of the law? Those who have encountered Christ and are born again. David Miller wrote: What Gentiles DO the law as a result of the law being written upon their hearts? BORN AGAIN GENTILES. John wrote: You make this conclusion, not scripture. Scripture clearly tells us which Gentiles do by nature the things of the law -- it those in this example who have not heard the law and its requirements. Right. What Gentiles would these be? Is there any way to be righteous, to love God and your neighbor as yourself, outside of Jesus Christ? These would be Gentiles who had not the law, but who believed the gospel of Jesus Christ and received the law written upon their hearts. Romans 2:14 says that the Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law. What Gentile does BY NATURE the things contained in the law? Human nature is contrary to the law. Read Romans 7. Only the new nature created in Christ Jesus is the nature which causes us to do by nature the things contained in the law. John S. wrote: If these were born again Christians there would be no question as to their salvation -- but salvation is not a sure thing in this passage .. compare Romans 2:15 and the stated option in regard to judgment day. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Romans 2:15 KJV) What stated option? I don't follow you. John S. wrote: When the Jewish patron left the altar of sacrifice, he was not protected from sin. David Miller wrote: Can you elaborate upon this? What do you mean? Didn't Job have a hedge of protection about him that Satan complained about? John wrote: What God accomplished for a particular individual does not a theology make. Are you in disagreement with my statement? No. John S. wrote: Do you believe that the offering of bulls and goats afforded linear protection for the OT patron? I don't know what linear protection means. I don't know what you mean by protect from sin. Do you mean deliver from temptation? David wrote: The repetitive nature of sacrifices had to do with the fact that the conscience was never dealt with in these sacrifices. No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place, the worshippers never really felt forgiven, so they kept doing it over and over again. John wrote: Whether or not this is a biblical observation is beside the point. When you write No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place are you admitting that forgiveness did take place and was specific in scope rather than on-going --- because that is my point. I agree with you that forgiveness took place, but I don't understand what you mean by specific in scope versus on-going forgiveness. Forgiveness under the Mosaic covenant was on-going in the sense that people continued to sin and continued to be forgiven. David wrote: What do you mean by linear? John wrote: I find it interesting that we had that big discussion regarding linear sometime back (IJo 1:8) and you don't know what linear means continual action with no end in sight. Oh, you are using a grammatical term in a non-grammatical context. Ok. You have to bear with me. In science when we talk about cause and effect relationships, we might describe them as linear or curvilinear, depending on the type of relationship. So when you say that the blood of Christ is linear in scope and accomplishment, you mean it is ongoing. In other words, I guess you are saying that it is dynamically applied over time when needed? It seems to me that the Hebrew sacrifices also were applied this way, but because they had no effect upon the conscience, they kept repeating the sacrifices over and over again. I'm tempted to draw upon Torrance to talk about why they did not effect the conscience but Christ did, but I guess that is another topic. :-) In terms of how people applied the sacrifice to their lives, though, is there any difference between how people appropriate the blood of Christ and the blood of bulls and goats? Don't we all come back for forgiveness if we fall and miss the mark? John S. wrote: Did you miss the point I made about Paul saying one
Re: [TruthTalk] Salvation for all
In a message dated 4/30/2004 9:33:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Miller wrote: His argument is that the Gentiles who did not have the LAW (were not hearers of the law) but were DOERS of the law, would surely be justified before God. Read the passage again now: John S. wrote: That is not what the passage says. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature the things of the law is the picture given in Romans 2. To be more specific -- Paul includes those who have never heard the law. I think that is what I just said. The Gentiles, who had never heard the law, were doers of the law, having the law written upon their hearts. What Gentiles have the law written upon their hearts and are doers of the law? Those who have encountered Christ and are born again. What is not in line with scripture is that last sentence. Your logic is circular at this point, assuming the very point that is to be proven. The only reason you state "What Gentiles have the law written upon their hearts and are doers of the law? Those who have encountered Christ and are born again" is because this is what you believe. Obviously, the "unsaved" (in terms of second birth) can practice the basics of the law because that is what the passage says. That they are "born again" is what DavidM says. I will go with the written message in this case. David Miller wrote: What Gentiles DO the law as a result of the law being written upon their hearts? BORN AGAIN GENTILES. John wrote: You make this conclusion, not scripture. Scripture clearly tells us which Gentiles do by nature the things of the law -- it those in this example who have not heard the law and its requirements. Right. What Gentiles would these be? Is there any way to be righteous, to love God and your neighbor as yourself, outside of Jesus Christ? Are you saying that this passage is speaking of full blown righteousness even though it does not use that wording? It certainly is not what I am saying. These would be Gentiles who had not the law, but who believed the gospel of Jesus Christ and received the law written upon their hearts. Romans 2:14 says that the Gentiles "do by nature the things contained in the law." What Gentile does BY NATURE the things contained in the law? Human nature is contrary to the law. Read Romans 7. Only the new nature created in Christ Jesus is the nature which causes us to do by nature the things contained in the law. Are you saying that unregenerated man is completely devoid of any instinct for doing good? John S. wrote: If these were born again Christians there would be no question as to their salvation -- but salvation is not a sure thing in this passage .. compare Romans 2:15 and the stated option in regard to judgment day. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) (Romans 2:15 KJV) What stated option? I don't follow you. "while accusing or else excusing ..." looks like an option to me. John S. wrote: When the Jewish patron left the altar of sacrifice, he was not protected from sin. David Miller wrote: Can you elaborate upon this? What do you mean? Didn't Job have a hedge of protection about him that Satan complained about? John wrote: What God accomplished for a particular individual does not a theology make. Are you in disagreement with my statement? No. Well, we are not in agreement then. John S. wrote: Do you believe that the offering of bulls and goats afforded linear protection for the OT patron? I don't know what "linear protection" means. I don't know what you mean by "protect from sin." Do you mean deliver from temptation? Past posts tell me you do know the meaning of linear -- action with no end in sight. "Protected from sin = forgiven. David wrote: The repetitive nature of sacrifices had to do with the fact that the conscience was never dealt with in these sacrifices. No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place, the worshippers never really felt forgiven, so they kept doing it over and over again. John wrote: Whether or not this is a biblical observation is beside the point. When you write "No matter what kind of forgiveness might take place " are you admitting that forgiveness did take place and was specific in scope rather than on-going --- because that is my point. I agree with you that forgiveness took place, but I don't understand what you mean by specific in scope versus on-going forgiveness. Forgiveness under the Mosaic covenant was on-going in the sense that people continued to sin and continued to be forgiven. Ot -- for every sin there was to be a sin offering. NT -- the sin offering is has been made once and for all time -- we are constantly covered by the forgiving flow of the blood of the Lamb. David wrote: What do you mean by linear? John wrote: I find it interesting that we
