Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
OK Leandro, I just sent an email to Ayatana list with your mockup and presenting the argument on the possible security flaw. Let us see how it goes. However, I would not be very hopeful, it seems like people in Canonical are convinced that the new behavior is good. best, Paulo On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Leandro leandromartine...@gmail.com wrote: This is what I can do in one minute, and I'm no hacker or webdesigner: http://www.ime.unicamp.br/~martinez/leandro/test1.html Click on the click here and then click anywhere on the image. I myself got confused while doing this because the first image is totally realistic on my system and I had the update manager and the site opened at the same time. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 13:13 +, Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: OK Leandro, I just sent an email to Ayatana list with your mockup and presenting the argument on the possible security flaw. Let us see how it goes. However, I would not be very hopeful, it seems like people in Canonical are convinced that the new behavior is good. People can get emotionally attached to an expended time and effort (with the alternative being to throw the result away and feel like your time has been wasted) and start to put up blinders to the real issues. This is similar to the phenomenon that allows projects to run 10-fold over time and budget. At every progress report on the overage, the team is convinced that they only need [insert small amount here] more to complete the project. Then, the more management invests in a project the more likely they are going to continue to throw good money after bad to finally see it through rather than cutting bait early on in the disaster. After-all, who wants to say we blew and have nothing to show for it rather than continuing the fantasy of eventually having something, even though it cost you 10 or 20x your original budget. Hopefully this is not what is happening here. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 08:11 +, Lionel Dricot wrote: Graeme the number of duplicates speaks for itself. But it seems that, for some reason, no usability is involved in this bug What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? [not to troll , Just curious.] Isnt it because the users were instructed to depend on the icon only? If they were told to update when the update-manager window opens wouldnt this have been solved? (the current behaviour is against nearly *every* usability rule ). As in? I assume (and I hope) that this more-important-than-usability reason worth it and I'm not a huge fan of this change , but it has its merits. I would like more communication from the people responsible of this behaviour. mpt has explained this change plenty of times on this bug report. you can see the number of comments he has made , kindly read them. Not sure how much more it can be explained. OTOH , the update manager window ,as well, is going to be improved for Lucid. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Disabling the updater daemon is now part of my installation routine for newbies. (well, I'm still looking for someone that will find that useful so I do it only when they tell me they have a bug with a window appearing all the time). Why disable it? Just use gconf and recover the old (and good) behavior. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
mac_v wrote: What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? On all computers I've installed Karmic (and Jaunty before) the update-manager windows opens in the background (either in minimized mode, or behind other windows, or on the wrong desktop). Since Linux users aren't used to closing one program before opening another (and I believe Windows users don't really have to do that any more in recent Windows versions), the user never knows there are updates available, because they always have at least one other application on top. Opening the update-manager window on top of all other windows is not good either, since it disrupts the user's workflow (which would end up with the window being closed by the user). I believe the developer(s) that advocated the new behavior have a different workflow, and thus doesn't have any problems with it. On the other hand, when the new behavior was still in discussion, they promised us that they would study the ratio of people updating regularly, compare with the previous ratios, and revert if it proved unsuccessful. I still haven't seen those numbers elsewhere, and up now we can only get anecdotal evidence that it doesn't work. Eventually, it all depends if you find it important or not that Ubuntu users install security updates or not, and if you don't there's no way any more comments on this bug report are going to make you admit it if you were wrong (especially if, at an individual level, you prefer the new behavior for whatever reasons). -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
As a personal sidenote, I want to add that, during the early discussion, I was not opposed to the idea. I had a lot of doubt but it has to be tried. I was kind of agnostic so let's try and see. Now, I can say that I've seen. It's not a matter of personal preferences : it's a matter when user you support report you a bug when it is supposed to be a feature. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Users ignore this kind of popup behavior because the internet, and viruses do this crap all the time. The same way you filter out ads online, in the store, on tv, wherever you are... you don't see an ad trying to get your attention and say OH DAMN, MUST PAY ATTENTION! There *was* one place we knew we could always look when we had updates... and now it's lost in the shuffle of random crap in the background. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:07 AM, mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 08:11 +, Lionel Dricot wrote: Graeme the number of duplicates speaks for itself. But it seems that, for some reason, no usability is involved in this bug What is intriguing with Graeme's user scenario is, why have the users been ignoring the window which was popping up? Why were they not updating when the window opened and dismissing it instead? [not to troll , Just curious.] Isnt it because the users were instructed to depend on the icon only? If they were told to update when the update-manager window opens wouldnt this have been solved? (the current behaviour is against nearly *every* usability rule ). As in? I assume (and I hope) that this more-important-than-usability reason worth it and I'm not a huge fan of this change , but it has its merits. I would like more communication from the people responsible of this behaviour. mpt has explained this change plenty of times on this bug report. you can see the number of comments he has made , kindly read them. Not sure how much more it can be explained. OTOH , the update manager window ,as well, is going to be improved for Lucid. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: Invalid Status in NULL Project: Fix Released Status in “update-notifier” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Status in “update-notifier” source package in Jaunty: Won't Fix Bug description: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. The window currently opens far too often when security updates are available: this is because of bug 369198, which is awaiting testing before it can be fixed in Ubuntu 9.04. To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false (Take into account that this gconf change is not supported.) To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update-notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
2009/11/17 Leandro leandromartine...@gmail.com: Also, can you imagine the security absurd for a unexperienced user which gets used to the system popuping something AND asking for root privileges? How easy is to mimic that with a website popup? That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. However it would need to be done very carefully so that the developers can not counter argument (I have the feeling that I have already something on this subject in Ayatana list, but it didn't catch up). If we had a web site that could mimic the behavior so that a innocent user might give away his root password then we may have a real situation to complain once again. Unfortunately I don't have the resources (knowledge and time) to try to do it myself. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Le mardi 17 novembre 2009 à 21:17 +, Paulo J. S. Silva a écrit : That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. This should *NOT* be a developer decision as it's only a matter of checking a box in GConf. This is an usability decision (and maybe also a security related decision). Some of the best developers out there are simply not able to think about usability (even if they often think they are) and some of the best usability specialists cannot write a Hello World. Definitely not the same job. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Lionel, Whoever made the decision (in this case probably some usability expert), will have to at least reconsider his/her decision in face of a real security risk even if to confirm it later. In my email, please read developer in a more general sense, as someone in the development team who is responsible for such decisions. Paulo 2009/11/17 Lionel Dricot pl...@ploum.net: Le mardi 17 novembre 2009 à 21:17 +, Paulo J. S. Silva a écrit : That is a major point. If there anyone can mimic the pop-up behavior using a website maybe, and I mean just maybe, we can get the developers attention on this possible security role. This should *NOT* be a developer decision as it's only a matter of checking a box in GConf. This is an usability decision (and maybe also a security related decision). Some of the best developers out there are simply not able to think about usability (even if they often think they are) and some of the best usability specialists cannot write a Hello World. Definitely not the same job. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On Mon, 2009-08-17 at 15:04 +, Rajeev Nair wrote: Any user who knows the admin password can install updates, That's a pretty long stretch -- assuming that all users have the admin password. This is *exactly* the mentality that has lead to millions of windows machines being exploited and botnet soldiers. Users should not have the admin password. so iam not sure what you mean by 'update manager appears for users who dont have permission to install' Again, not all users have admin rights. You need to stop thinking about the simplistic case of home user that installs Ubuntu on their own machine. In a properly managed corporate environment, the users won't have admin rights. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
On lun, 2009-07-06 at 13:36 +, Chauncellor wrote: A quote from my friend on his Mac's notification system: I find the bouncy icon annoying and all, but if it weren't there I'd probably never update. When it does bounce, I see all the updates and if I don't use some programs in the list ill [sic] just ignore them altogether. While I in NO WAY would like to see bouncing icons, I think it proves that there can be something done other than blatant pop-ups that will grab the user's attention. But, yes I know that guidelines are usually untouchable for good reasons, but I ask: why couldn't they just blink for two seconds, with a long period (e.g. .5 secs)? And then stay normal, and then blink again in two hours or so. It wouldn't be annoying at all I think. V. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I can certainly agree with and appreciate that. It is true that the notification area in the average Ubuntu installation is nowhere near as cluttered as the system tray in the average Windows installation, and it is better to solve a problem *before* it becomes a problem rather than after. I'd like to think that Ubuntu users are a cut above Windows users, and that we don't simply ignore icons we don't understand. With that said, however, I also understand that when a Windows user chooses to (or is persuaded to) try out Linux, Ubuntu is usually the distro of choice - and for good reason. While a cluttered notification area is not very ideal, forcing windows to pop up uncommanded in the user's face is truly bad form - the sort of thing I thought GNU/Linux was above. The average Windows convert would likely panic, thinking that he or she had contracted a virus; and the average Linux user would start having Windows flashbacks. I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, and that the people who *really* need to hear this are no longer listening, but... If Ubuntu is going to continue to serve as the bridge between the Windows and Linux communities, then we really need to set better examples than this, and not give in to the Windows way of doing things. -Original Message- From: Chauncellor Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:13:25 - Loïc Martin: I believe that, while it was certainly a plus for them to clean up the notification dialogue, the end goal was to make updates more noticeable and present for the average user that would probably just ignore the icon in the tray. Nine out of ten Windows machines that I fix have a swamp of icons in the tray, and the customers that I handle almost always don't know what any of them do. While there is certainly a lesser amount of icons in Ubuntu, it would still probably be ignored just as much. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
In what way will the way the pop under change in the way it is presented? It really doesn't matter how it is presented, if it pops up in the users space it is going to be hated by most people. Media center PC's, presentations, people doing real work will always find it a huge annoyance if it uses the user program space (the desktop) in any fashion short of checking that the PC has been idle for at least a couple of hours and that no media types are playing. boun...@canonical.com wrote: mac_v wrote: The notification area icon is *not* returning... That's not true. The notification area icon is probably not returning for the next release of Ubuntu, but in 2 or 3 years time, when everybody will have forgotten, there's nothing to prevent it to be reintroduced as a groundbreaking new feature in Ubuntu. It just needs the designer to change his mind (unless the idea to test it in Jaunty was just for show, and the designer actually only care to get his feature implemented), or just move on to another job. It might take more time, maybe 5 to 10 years, but saying it will not return is a bit far-fetched. And saying that saving 20x20 pixel (the notification area icon) is an issue only to waste far more space on the bottom panel (Window List) and on the desktop is certainly a design issue that needs to be rethought. Since it doesn't use the notification icon, the new behavior actually has to use the Windows List AND the desktop as huge notification areas - they're not designed for this task, and misusing desktop features is certainly a bigger design issue. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. Status in One Hundred Paper Cuts: New Status in NULL Project: Fix Released Status in “update-notifier” package in Ubuntu: Won't Fix Status in update-notifier in Ubuntu Jaunty: Won't Fix Bug description: I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread headed by: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027416.html Specific messages worth reading are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027434.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027451.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027454.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027437.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027445.html Matthew Paul Thomas says that the desired behavior is: * When there are security updates, Update Manager will open and show them (plus any other available updates) within a day. * When there are non-security updates, Update Manager will open and show them *one week* after it was last opened (whether it was last opened manually or automatically, and regardless of whether updates were actually installed then). * When there are no available updates, Update Manager will not open automatically at all. Desired by whom? And where was discussion of this change that effects the entire Ubuntu community? Because some percentage of users don't apparently understand that the notification area has meaning, we are not going to use it for updates? Chow Loong Jin raised a valid point that if update notification is now done by opening the entire update manager program, perhaps evolution and similar should open their application UIs rather than use the notification area. And there are concerns about unintended functional consequences of this ill-conceived change, discussed in the thread. Personally, I predict that opening the Update Manager window while people are working will piss off a lot of users when it happens, and may result in them wanting to disable automatic checking. Yes, that'll be highly desirable, won't it? In other words, this change should be corrected, and a notification icon should be displayed when updates are available. The window currently opens far too often when security updates are available: this is because of bug 369198, which is awaiting testing before it can be fixed in Ubuntu 9.04. To disable the new behaviour and get the old behaviour: gconftool -s --type bool /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch false (Take into account that this gconf change is not supported.) To have the update manager launch immediately when updates are available, use this: gconftool -s --type int /apps/update-notifier/regular_auto_launch_interval 0 -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
When I reported the bug I thought it might be a security issue and I still think it might. In my case the window opened spontaneously and I got notification of updates but when I closed that window without updating and clicked on update manager to deliberately open the window and check for updates I got message that there were no updates.This happened twice and the second time I made certain that to close the spontaneously opened window without updating but still, when I myself opened update manager, I got notification there were no updates . Has someone (big if) found a way to mimic the update window? If so it can be used it to spoof us into downloading malicious software.Even if they don't use it for this purpose it implies a possible weakness in system security. But I emphasize that I don't know if this is indeed the case. Other than that I have no idea of what is happening. Chauncellor wrote: Still getting dupes of this. We're up to 32, now Any word on what's up? -- Bernard Springer ath...@gmail.com -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Just my 2 cents, but I consider we're going right into a wall if we design intrusive tools, even if the intrusiveness (does this word exist ?) is legitimate. Remember what about to Windows' UAC. Imo, it should be ok to use a notify-osd notification + a systray icon for updates as soon as they're available, and to pop-up the window only on extreme cases : * one whole week for security updates (yes it's a lot, but i think it's reasonable) * thirty days for normal updates - AND ONLY ONCE ! if the user does not want to do the updates, then let him not do them, his choice ! And if the window opens that way, it should explicitely say There have been updates for # days but you didn't click on the updates orange/red icon in your panel, so we thought you might not have noticed it. If you want to do the updates now, click on the Update button. This way, the user knows _why_ it went in his/her way and will know how to avoid this : by explicitely making the updates when they're available (which should be easy for him/her to see, with the systray icon). -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Steve Dodier wrote: Imo, it should be ok to use a notify-osd notification + a systray icon for updates as soon as they're available, and to pop-up the window only on extreme cases : @ Steve: The pop-up window seems like a reasonable option in the scenario's you've given... But i feel that automatic Pop-ups in any form should be discouraged... IMO pop-up/under are a security flaw. NO window Should populate the window list unless the user has opened it... [A Daemon process should NOT open new programs on its own without asking for user's permissions or explicit user settings] A better alternative would be a Notification system that allows interaction/ morphing alert box [So these could present the user with the options to either downloadInstall now or To dismiss] *And repeating the notifications at the time of user's choice*... which makes the need for a systray icon[as a remainder] unnecessary. Also the DX team has made it very clear that systray icon WILL NOT return... I had been very vocal here opposing the change but i went with it... And *even though it might not have been the intended purpose* for the removal of the icon, *I have found the icon removal useful* ... *Now I dont think much about the updates* , there is no icon nagging me about the updates. Just think about the Updates , its just a sugar-coated word for oops-the-devs-didnt-realize-this-mistake-earlier , Updates are for the flaws which wasnt realized while baking the release... and to be fair to all devs ,no OS can EVER do it perfectly without a need for updates. So, instead of drawing so much attention to these updates , making it easy for the end-user to not pay much attention is a more ideal way of thinking. As mpt has said that they are looking for a decent solution,This is what i'v proposed in Ayatana, with Hopes the DX Team takes notice ==For updates to be less intrusive to the user== * From an idea proposed by David Siegel , And further expanding it When the user receives the updates notification,user chooses to download Install the packages , * Installation of Updates the dont require restart are done immediately, * Before starting the installation of package+dependencies, which requires a restart, the user is warned that this particular package requires a reboot. * User either chooses, install now or during next boot . For good implementation of this, updates need to be clearly marked as 1:security 2:criticalsolves a major crash/freeze issue of the package / major improvement of package responsiveness 3:non-criticalminor tweaks to performance So when the user is presented with the update requiring reboot,he is told that [1]This update solves a crash/freeze problem seen in this package/Gives you major improvement of package responsiveness [2] This update is a non-critical update [3] This is a security Update * So the user decides , if he has the problem, he can do the update immediately... If not, delay it for the next boot. * If the user later decides to update before the reboot, he should be able to do so from the update manager, where a reminder saysInstall pending updates. * The same can be done for the firefox updates too... download the updates when the user accepts and since it requires restart of the browser , WAIT till the browser is closed and then install the updates. So no need to restart the browser. * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Cheers, mac_v -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
I had been very vocal here opposing the change but i went with it... And *even though it might not have been the intended purpose* for the removal of the icon, *I have found the icon removal useful* ... *Now I dont think much about the updates* , there is no icon nagging me about the updates. ... * From an idea proposed by David Siegel , And further expanding it When the user receives the updates notification,user chooses to download Install the packages , * Installation of Updates the dont require restart are done immediately, * Before starting the installation of package+dependencies, which requires a restart, the user is warned that this particular package requires a reboot. * User either chooses, install now or during next boot . If I am working I want to ignore the update message. I will have time for it later in the day. I don't want to decide anything, I want to keep on working. This is already decided. I don't want to take an action. I don't want a pop-up/pop-under (so I have to actively close it). I want a notification for this. It will go away by itself. Maybe a scarier notification (with a different background color, red for example), can be good. So that even though I am free to ignore it, I will know that it is red, then it is a system notification. * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Really? Usually, if I do not choose to update right away it is because I am concentrating on what I am doing. Usually I can not accurately predict for how long I will work to define the exact moment the update notification should appear again. If the notification appears while I am still concentrating I will not look at it. Or are you talking about the pop-under (that would annoy me again if I am working)? I would greatly prefer to have a constant reminder in the panel. Paulo -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva Teoria é o que não entendemos o (Theory is something we don't) suficiente para chamar de prática. (understand well enough to call practice) -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying
Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: * When the user has chosen not to download updates , These notification repeat again at a later time[10mins/30mins/1hr/4hrs/1day/7days],which the user chooses from a drop-down menu and if the user tries to shutdown before updating he is reminded again via the same alerts. Really? Usually, if I do not choose to update right away it is because I am concentrating on what I am doing. Usually I can not accurately predict for how long I will work to define the exact moment the update notification should appear again. If the notification appears while I am still concentrating I will not look at it. Or are you talking about the pop-under (that would annoy me again if I am working)? I would greatly prefer to have a constant reminder in the panel. I'm against the pop-ups too, i was referring to interactive notifications/ morphing alert boxes. The next time the reminder pops up, you can again postpone it ... and so on... Well... the DX team is not going to allow panel icon:( , so i feel this is the closest to an update reminder we can have... cheers, mac_v -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information / new update-manager behaviour is annoying https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On 14/06/2009 Chauncellor wrote: After realizing this, I've found out that MPT was right: I don't think that any icon will suit the notification area for a casual user. There is something that needs to be done. HOWEVER, I still don't agree that the pop-up is the necessary solution. I proposed in ayatana an alternative: instead of an icon, put some text there. Like it is done by default for FUSA (fast user-switch applet). Then you can turn it into an icon if you need space. Like it is done for FUSA. But in that case you see the icon in the configuration dialog so you know what it is. Will probably not be accepted but I tried :) Vincenzo -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno lun, 15/06/2009 alle 22.55 +, bdoe ha scritto: The same could be said for Windows. Since Windows XP SP2, automatic security updates are turned on by default, and users have to specifically opt out of it to turn it off. I want to point out the following to the many who think automatic updates are a good idea. When I started computing I was 8, so perhaps mine is a particular case. But I was _not_ an enfant prodige. I saw the switch from the computer can and should be used by everyone, surely true with those old commodore home computers, even if you had to type to use them, and surely true with macs and with OS/2, to using the computer is difficult, it's impossible, only gurus can do that, it's dangerous etc. This switch happened with windows 95. MS-DOS was used by non-technicians because they needed it. And after all it was clear to everybody what happened: you typed commands in, the computer did something. Microsoft started advertising windows 95 as easy computing for everyone, and at the same time they formed an army of ignorant technicians that are very good at installing windows and all of its accessories (replace this with a bad word of your choice:). This led to the introduction of the ECDL and other amenities. Aren't these two things in open contradiction? You have an operating system that is self-teaching, but you need a course and a certificate that you are able to use it? How it is so? They wanted an economic empire, not an easy to use operating system. Part of this empire is the millions of persons who followed courses on how to make the thing actually work, and became microsoft servants and advocates and linux haters. Most of the times, these persons hate linux because their brain is so flat they really can't tell an applications menu if it's on the top of the screen instead of on the bottom. Sorry for being so direct, that's what I have been observing in Italy at least, in the last 20 years. The growth of a mass of ignorant microsoft servants. Where do I want to go with this? I do not care about the MS habit of turning things on by default even if they can harm, so that a technician must then be called to repair the broken behaviour. This is because your average user, in _their_ opinion, is NOT ABLE TO and SHOULD NOT install the OS by itself, neither should they start using it without a guru on their side. And they should be educated that if they try, then they get punished by all the hidden problems and corner cases they get into. I've seen this many times. And can you hear the operator smile and say you see, you tried to do the work of a technician, it's not easy, next time call us earlier and you'll save more money. Let us not lie about that. Microsoft can reasonably expect experts to install the operating system for users, and then the user must be aware of all the problems that can happen, like e.g. connecting a 3g card and finding a 6k euros bill at the end of the month, or installing an antivirus, removing all the crapware they have pre-installed on their system and so on. They do not care to avoid being in the way of users. The more they are in the way, the more the user will feel unable to use the computer alone, and will resort to the ignorant army. Paying them and so on. And all these users typically feel it's their fault, because they do not know how to use their computer. We are different. Ubuntu can be installed in a small number of easy steps and if it does not go right, we consider it a bug. After installation, the system must NOT require further knowledge to be used without causing problems. I would never second automatic updates unless we ask this to the user for every new connection created. We (ubuntu) shall not risk being labelled as the cause of a consistent money loss, or of being discovered if we ahem, sneak in an open wifi just to take a look to our e-mail. Ask your non-power-user if they did that before. I was surprised to see that ordinary persons do that more than techies. This is probably because techies know what they are doing :) Someone transitioning from a recent version of Windows should be used to that behavior. Yes, they are supposed to know. But how they did discover it? If they are ignorant (the good meaning of the word, this time) about computers, either they found out because they paid a huge bill, or somebody else told them. We must be better. Perhaps, instead of automatically enabling automatic updates, it can be one of the questions asked during Ubuntu installation. On the other hand, this is something I agree with entirely. Vincenzo -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
To use automotive analogies in this... If our check engine light comes on our car taking us in a straight line to the dealership, not following roads, going straight through forest, lakes, streams etc. Its just ludicrous devs hijacking the desktop with unsolicited pop-ups. Update manager is going to become a virus for versions moving forward. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
-Original Message- From: Vincenzo Ciancia Subject: Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:59:50 - I am in all ways against automatic updates because I think the user must be aware of when something delicate is happening. E.g. in the last week before submitting a thesis, if the system is upgraded and for some reason broken, you sure that I will come and kill some of you :) You are all lukcy that I am not supposed to submit any more theses. I can see your point; however, this can happen even to those who manually approve each and every update. It happened to me a couple of months ago where I approved a kernel update, and the update crashed X and kept it from being able to start. Granted, I was subscribed to Proposed updates and so expected that sort of thing to happen, but it can still happen to anyone whether the update was automated or not. At least with manual updates, if something goes wrong, you've got a better idea where to look for the cause. At any rate, I don't think it's really going to be a big issue, if only the security updates are automated. I've had automatic updates enabled on my file server for more than a year, and it hasn't crashed yet - and before you say, well, yes, but that's a server, I do have gdm and ubuntu-desktop packages installed. No, we should not do something potentially harmful by default. What if an user does not know this and finds a 6000 euros internet bill at the end of the month? Sure that'll be experience but I don't think they will use linux anymore. Anything that may make automatic connections should require user authorization. How to make this seamless is a possible space for decision. The same could be said for Windows. Since Windows XP SP2, automatic security updates are turned on by default, and users have to specifically opt out of it to turn it off. Someone transitioning from a recent version of Windows should be used to that behavior. Perhaps, instead of automatically enabling automatic updates, it can be one of the questions asked during Ubuntu installation. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno dom, 14/06/2009 alle 04.56 +, bdoe ha scritto: Regarding automatic updates: I'm with Martin on this one; I believe it should be turned on by default I am in all ways against automatic updates because I think the user must be aware of when something delicate is happening. E.g. in the last week before submitting a thesis, if the system is upgraded and for some reason broken, you sure that I will come and kill some of you :) You are all lukcy that I am not supposed to submit any more theses. However in the current situation it is true that the only advantage of the upgrades popup is ... letting the user decide wether to upgrade or not. I don't think any ordinary user should even look at the list of upgrades by default. It's nice to be able to see it but it's not really necessary. Normal workflow is to see the window, and click on upgrade system or whatever. So this is very close to automatic upgrades, the only difference is to let the choice of the right moment to the users. . If you are on a pay-per-use Internet plan or a plan that places a cap on your usage, you can simply go in and turn off the automatic updates. No, we should not do something potentially harmful by default. What if an user does not know this and finds a 6000 euros internet bill at the end of the month? Sure that'll be experience but I don't think they will use linux anymore. Anything that may make automatic connections should require user authorization. How to make this seamless is a possible space for decision. I'm curious to know how update manager displays itself if the system needs to be rebooted after an update, and the user has already closed the window... I think it will open a separate popup. Regarding forking Ubuntu: Does anyone know if Mint has/will have this improvement? Mint has a completely different update manager, mostly focused on avoiding risky updates by giving a lower priority to core packages like the kernel. Strange, indeed, as typically these are the most urgent packages to upgrade from the point of view of security. However, the thesis here is that ordinary users can eventually do upgrades once in a release cycle. There's no need to explain that many do not share this view but it does not seem so likely that worms will affect linux desktop systems in the near future. V. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I have marked Leandro's Brainstorm Idea as a duplicate of: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19283 Best Regards Lanoxx -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Regarding automatic updates: I'm with Martin on this one; I believe it should be turned on by default. If you are on a pay-per-use Internet plan or a plan that places a cap on your usage, you can simply go in and turn off the automatic updates. After all, if Canonical is so concerned about the security of its users' installations that it feels the situation warrants interrupting the user with uncommanded popups, then having the system automatically update itself without user intervention should be right up its alley. I'm curious to know how update manager displays itself if the system needs to be rebooted after an update, and the user has already closed the window... Regarding forking Ubuntu: Does anyone know if Mint has/will have this improvement? -Original Message- From: Stanislaw Pitucha virap...@gmail.com Reply-to: Bug 332945 332...@bugs.launchpad.net To: brian...@att.net Subject: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:05:56 - @Martin: No - there are two problems with automatic [anything]: 1. I may be using the application that is being upgraded - and may cause it to crash / misbehave. 2. An automatic download at the wrong time might be very costly for the user. For example on my 3G connection it costs me the same to download the first 3GB of data in a month and to download every 60MB after that. That means any program starting an update at a random time, may end up costing me a lot of real money (without a warning). An openoffice update at a wrong time could really hit me. @Vincenzo Ciancia: ... the popup is not going away unless you make your own fork of ubuntu. Pidgin was forked for less annoying changes... With ubuntu it's even easier - a PPA with a fixed package is enough. If the option of going back to no-popup version is disabled in Karmic, I'm definitely making such package - I still consider the popup behaviour in whatever form to be broken / a bug. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
MPT.. so if I am hearing this right... popup/popunder is here to stay and there is no amount of griping in any fashion, organized or unorganized that can get that virus... erm feature removed going forward? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
getut wrote: MPT.. so if I am hearing this right... popup/popunder is here to stay and there is no amount of griping in any fashion, organized or unorganized that can get that virus... erm feature removed going forward? sad to say that feature seems here to stay ! since mostly they dont have a reasonable replacement. and *to anyone* who is complaining here, its almost no use, mpt is *probably* the only dev still subscribed to this bug... if u really want your concerns heard to a larger *dev* audience, this is not the place... concerns *need* to be made at https://launchpad.net/~ayatana subscribe to this mailing list and voice your concerns... its no use here... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno ven, 12/06/2009 alle 20.34 +, mac_v ha scritto: concerns *need* to be made at https://launchpad.net/~ayatana subscribe to this mailing list and voice your concerns... its no use here... Subscribe to that mailing list if you are interested in constructive discussion, not to express concern. In the current moment, as the intentions of the developers have been longly clarified, the popup is not going away unless you make your own fork of ubuntu. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno mer, 10/06/2009 alle 04.52 +, mb_webguy ha scritto: Ubuntu is likewise a free distribution, and so market share doesn't really figure into it. I think you didn't notice the hype around preinstalled ubuntu and OEM, which is where all this mess came from :) It is clear that marketing is a good part of ubuntu, and that all of us ubuntu guys around that install ubuntu to everyone are doing the campaign. What is unclear is how do we behave when our distribution begins to... ehm... suck and we have no powers to stop the distribution. I am not saying this is completely happening: all of us can discuss these problems on ayatana and my experience has been that the developers are very interested in feedback and suggestions from anyone. But the pop-up window is not going to disappear, unluckily. V. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I know this is probably no consolation for a lot of us in the short term, but there IS an option here: Like any other free open-source software, source code for all of what makes up Gnome is available. If Gnome is taking a turn in an undesirable direction, there's no reason why Gnome can't fork. It's not like we're entirely powerless here. -Original Message- From: Chauncellor brettcornw...@gmail.com Reply-to: Bug 332945 332...@bugs.launchpad.net To: brian...@att.net Subject: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:22:25 - mb_webguy: Perhaps you should take a look at bug number 1 :). While Linux might not care, Ubuntu does. Really, I'm just scared to death of Gnome 2.30/3.0 modeling too much after Mac - meaning having nothing of real productive value in the GUI (good lord, if there's a dock, I swear I'll kill myself). If this happens, I believe for the first time I'll be considering switching over to KDE. I've always loved GNOME for the two+ years I've used it, and I'd hate for it to get spoiled. Don't get me wrong, I'm welcome to changes in GNOME, but if there isn't a good substitute for the notification area, which seems to be the ultimate victim, I'm afraid I wouldn't be the only one ditching it. I digress, though. ddumont, even though I agree with you, I feel that aggression won't get us anywhere. MPT knows that the majority of us hate it already. At this point in time, I'm just pleading for an option. Give us an option to keep the notification tray if we end up not liking the alternative presented, and please give us the option of having our updates showing up in there. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Really? So the majority of the PC users, and a good portion of the open source market decided that they liked a certain model... And you come and proclaim that they all have it wrong? Very bold of you, sir. I really don't icare/i what you think about the notification area... What I care about is how you guys remove long lasting, ubiquitous behavior to attempt change in the development environment without giving any of your users recourse but to GTFO or downgrade their installation. This is not good behavior for a company who wishes to continue to gain market share... you cannot apply this type of behavior at will to all areas of your distribution without SEVERELY pissing most of your userbase off. I just want an option. Let me put it back in the notification area, you have have yours pop under, and we'll both be happy. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.comwrote: Brian Burger: It's a fallacy to suggest that because something has been labelled the notification area it is necessarily good at presenting notifications. Our position is that it is not -- that Microsoft got it wrong in designing it, and Gnome got it wrong in copying Microsoft. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I have to agree here. What will happen to programms like pidgin or Skype. Can we not send them to the notification area any more? That would be really disappointing. What other place will there be to have a permanent place of putting apps that run in the background, if you ultimately remove the notification completly? Chauncellor wrote: MPT: Oh, goodie! Looks like we have a winner here. I'll be voting that idea up I hope it's implemented soon, it's exactly what I was thinking about! May I ask what the end result of the notification area is, then? It seems like the goal is ultimately to completely remove the notification area. What would you do with dockable programs like Thunderbird or Pidgin, then? Where would I send them? Also, at this point in time, it seems that you guys are set on never looking back into putting the notifications into the notification bar. I would like to plead on my knees that something be done with the in-your-face pop-up, pop-under, evasive, invisible, or-whatever-is-being-boiled-next method that ultimately invades and annoys the users and also does less of a good job of notifying. Never have I had a window that I couldn't minimize in Ubuntu, and I'm always thankful of that when I have to use this Windows machine to connect to dial-up. Please, for the love of everything good and green, do not decide that the computer knows what windows should and should not be minimized. Vincenzo Ciancia put it well when he said Really, I am in front of my beloved Ubuntu but I hate a part of it. That said, perhaps the end result of this cleaning may very well be for the better of GNOME. I very vehemently disagree with this removal, but perhaps there will be some better method that would be very friendly to all. At the present, though, it's pretty much decided that it is not. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Leandro: This looks nice but only works if you have a SYSTEM menu. UNR users don't and users who remove or move this menu (as I have on a notebook) will not see the notification indication. Walt -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno gio, 04/06/2009 alle 14.41 +, Matthew Paul Thomas ha scritto: yurx cherio: People had already been trying to find an effective icon for years, from one that looked like a cigarette packet (Ubuntu 5.04) to a red pinwheel (5.10) to an orange square (6.06, 6.10, 7.04, 7.10) to an SD card with a halo (Windows Vista) to a starburst (Ubuntu 8.04 and 8.10). If the icon should not indicate upgrades, but rather a generic urgent message then a red triangle with an eclamation mark would be more or less universal. E.g. interactions could be queued into such a triangle icon, and then clicking would bring a menu with all the pending interactions. I doubt anybody would not react to such a icon in the proper way, that is, clicking on it to see what the system wants from us; but it would avoid launching possibly heavy softwares unrequested. Vincenzo -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno mer, 03/06/2009 alle 19.36 +, mb_webguy ha scritto: This one, however, was -- in many users' opinions -- for the worse, and the response to negative user feedback on this issue has made it seem as if the developers are determinedly ignoring it. No the feedback has not been ignored. Some improvement has been added (e.g. the window starts minimised, even if it is not happening on my machine, so I am only trusting others here). Point is that the idea of opening interactive windows automatically is not considered bad by developers anymore for reasons that, even though explained other times, I don't understand. Perhaps it's me. V. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno mar, 02/06/2009 alle 15.30 +, braddock ha scritto:
What happened to the wide-spread usability principle that modal
dialogs
(aka, an unwanted update window) are BAD?
\begin{acid*}
It has been argued (in my opinion, very imprecisely) that no system can
go on without sometimes interrupting the user, be it a popup, a balloon
or anything else. The difference between a notification and a dialog is
clear to anybody but it seems that it must be not so clear when we speak
of the new ubuntu.
\end{acid*}
We never got a simple answer to your question. The principle is gone,
for good or bad it does not matter so much. In the name of the principle
of not crowding the notification area, one other principle is gone. It
has been said that ubuntu specific apps should be an example for all the
other apps. I wonder if this means that any app will start happily
popping up interactive popups. Perhaps we can implement a popup blocker
for the X window system :)
I personally still hate the update-notifier popup, it consumes cpu and I
see it only in rare moments because it pops under. Really, I am in front
of my beloved ubuntu but I hate a part of it.
I am using it instead of removing it to see if I get used, but it's not
happening.
V.
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Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Wed, 2009-06-03 at 13:55 +, Toralv wrote: I think it's rather communistic of those responsible for this change to impose their personal preference on everybody. Hrm. You don't seem to understand the concept of communism and are making the common mistake of calling what you characterize as a dictatorship as communism. But the discussion of that is OT for this thread. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
True. I believe the correct term would be fascism; but we are getting way off topic. FWIW, I noticed that the behavior of the update window seems to have changed since I first installed Jaunty. Instead of opening as a popup/popunder, it is opening minimized in my task panel. Though this is not as annoying as having the window get in my face every time it wants attention, it is still annoying, and to me seems to violate the principle of the reason for all this change to begin with. Now, instead of an innocuous icon sitting in my notification tray, I have a minimized window sitting on my task panel. They didn't really clean up the notification area; they just simply moved them somewhere else! -Original Message- On Wed, 2009-06-03 at 13:55 +, Toralv wrote: I think it's rather communistic of those responsible for this change to impose their personal preference on everybody. Hrm. You don't seem to understand the concept of communism and are making the common mistake of calling what you characterize as a dictatorship as communism. But the discussion of that is OT for this thread. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Mon, 2009-05-11 at 22:19 +, Ricardo Pérez López wrote: Interestingly, the client of the Canonical's recently released UbuntuOne service puts a persistent applet icon in the notification area: https://ubuntuone.com/support/installation/ Well, I don't see any evidence there one way or the other, but most certainly if one's own dogfood is not good enough for one to eat himself, one should not be asking others to eat it. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Jonathan Marsden wrote: I'm slightly bewildered that so many here apparently feel that bothering to read the Jaunty Release Notes and doing what they suggest, to restore the old approach, is impossibly difficult... or something? I'm pretty sure most of us are aware of how to bring back the old behavior - at least for the moment. The problem is, it is an unsupported hack. How long will that capability be there until it is taken away? How will executing that hack affect future updates, or the upgrade to Karmic when that comes around? Besides, this isn't about us. Most of us here can work our way around these petty niggles that annoy us. It's the new users - particularly those who have never seen the old behavior and therefore have nothing to which to compare the new behavior; who thinks the new behavior is too intrusive and in your face for their comfort and, having not seen the old behavior, think that's just how Ubuntu is. It is for these people that we are running this BS flag up the flagpole. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: mac_v: A notification that a window has popped up? You mean something like this screenshot? That's how Mac OS 9 did it a decade ago. Its main problem was that there was no direct way to get from the notification to the actual window, violating the principle of direct manipulation; and the same would be true of a Notify OSD bubble. That's why we say notification bubbles should be primarily for notifications that *don't* need an input response (with IMs skating on the edge of that category, because seeing an IM in a notification bubble sometimes makes it unnecessary to switch to the chat window). Now, how to present windows requesting attention when the window list isn't visible is an important issue, not just for updates but generally. The same is true for how to indicate windows that are minimized. If you have ideas about how to do those things, we'd be interested to read them on the Ayatana mailing list. That this bug report is filed under NULL doesn't mean anything like what you seem to think it does; this issue was recorded as needing an item in the Ubuntu release notes, that was done, and the people maintaining the release notes then had no interest in being spammed with further comments irrelevant to them, so they refiled it. ok... i think i misunderstood about the NULL tag. ideally for window attention notification a time repeated window preview as done by compiz would be nice, but the compiz window preview doesnt allow interactions with the preview, whereas Windows7 has copied the idea and allowed interactions[clicking on the preview brings the window to the front] notification i was mentioning for right now was something like the screenshot but notify-osd would be better looking, Also i dont understand what principle of direct manipulation u are mentioning? its only the notify-osd that specifies no interaction but the freedesktop specs allows actions/hyperlinks as listed here org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities http://www.galago-project.org/specs/notification/0.9/x408.html#command-get-capabilities so when there are provisions for interactons, leave the notify-osd as it is and add another notification system which allows actions, a notification system which only system process use for notification wich require actions... i'm not sure if u have noticed , i'v added a mockup with screenshots of a concept of notification tags, which could be used as persistent notifications to this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotificationDesignGuidelines/Comments since these can contain text and interactions update manager could use this to either open updates window by clicking on the notification /when the mouser over reveals the actions either a direct install or dismiss of the notification / or the notification can remain minimized until the user chooses to install... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
C. Cooke wrote: Paulo J. S. Silva : About updates in the indicator applet: I've been working on a proof-of- concept that does just that. It currently implements indicator messages for updates and needing to reboot. You can find it at http://earth.gkhs.net/ccooke/indicator/ Note that this is only intended to be a proof of concept to see how useful update messages in the indicator are. C.Cooke, looks good , but the updates available are just too much info, rather just splitting the info into X number of security updates are available and X number of softwares updates would be better. the detailed updates info would however show up when the main update window is brought up... also i feel that the indicator applet should have a dynamic changing icon so that the program icon of the application demanding attention is displayed rather than the common envelope icon for all the apps... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: bdoe: If you are still having this problem, I suggest subscribing to the http://www.ubuntu.com/usn feed, and then reporting a bug the next time a package you have installed shows up there without Update Manager opening within a day. We'd take that very seriously. I'm absolutely certain now that the window did pop as it was supposed to, but I had dismissed it without seeing what it was. This goes back to one of my major complaints about this new notification method: Once dismissed, the window was gone for good, and I had no further reminders of the updates. The window popped again for me today, with new updates. This time, I heeded it. Unfortunately, I had to stop everything I was doing so that I could service the update window - this in lieu of dismissing the window again and forgetting about the updates. I stand by my assertion that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the old method of popping an icon in the notification tray, and would like to see it re-implemented. If needed, have the icon pop along with an accompanying OSD-notification that New Updates are Ready to Install, flash the icon until the OSD goes away, then leave the icon persistent until the updates are installed. I don't see how this could have ever been considered broken to begin with. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 16:12 +, scar wrote: open the update manager on all desktops at least Oh yeah, that's much better. Annoying * $number_of_desktops. Talk about getting right in somebody's face. Surely it's obvious by now that this was a very ill-thought out decision. I've said it before but I will repeat, if there is a better implementation of this idea down the road, then that's fine. Show it to us when it's done and stop inflicting half-baked, annoying ideas on the general user-base. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Uwe Schilling wrote: Well, it need not be a ticker, it need not be animated,Or it could be animated by default and there is an option to turn off the animation. Or the ticker is moving through just once and then stays still until the mouse hovers over it, or ... I basically just wanted to suggest the title bar of all windows as a place where notifications could take place. @Uwe, how often do people look at the title bar? NEVER i hardly ever notice it... people usually notice the content of the window, not the titlebar. so it wouldnt serve the purpose of being noticed would it? even if it was in a different color the chances are that it would never get noticed. and a scrolling/animated ticker would be distracting/irritating... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: bdoe: If there are security updates waiting in the archive and Update Manager doesn't open within a day, please report a separate bug about that. However -- and I apologize in advance if this affects your sleep -- it has never been true that if there's no icon up there indicating important security updates, then my system is truly secure. A vulnerability may be found and exploited by bad guys before being found by good guys; once it is identified by good guys, it may be hours before it is fixed in a way that the developers are confident won't break anything else; after that, Launchpad may take up to an hour to rebuild the fixed package (depending on the complexity of the package); after that, there may sometimes be an embargo of hours or days agreed with other OS vendors; after it is released from embargo, it will be between 0 and 60 minutes before the new package is published in the Ubuntu archive; and after that, it will be between 0 and 24 hours until your computer next checks for security updates. This is all true regardless of whether that last step involves a notification area icon or the updates window itself. I can't file a bug report on something I don't know exists. Like I stated, I may well have simply closed the window in a fit of desktop-cleaning, without realizing what the window was. I will probably never know, because once the window is closed, there is no further indication that I need to update my system unless I manually invoke Update Manager or another security update comes along (assuming I don't once again dismiss the window after it pops up and annoys me). With the notification icon (aka. old behavior), there is nothing I can do to dismiss the icon short of updating my system; nor would I have any reason to dismiss the icon prematurely, since it is completely unobtrusive. As for your point about my system never being truly secure: I understand that. I was being facetious. but the FOSS community has generally been far more responsive to discovering and patching security flaws than certain monoliths (*cough*Microsoft*cough*) who have gone on record for leaving major security flaws unaddressed for about nine months or so ( /http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/01/internet_explorer_unsafe_for_2.html)/... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 17:00 +, Richard Thomas wrote: Also I would like to point out that if you make use of virtual desktops feature I have 9 desktops It very very easy to miss the pop up as on my machine it shows on desktop one while i tend work on other desktops and have firefox open on full screen on desktop one. just totally missing the popup till i click shutdown and i briefly show as X closes Sarcasm alert... No, no, no. The popup should pop up onto every desktop/screen you have, and your ipod and iphone, and television while you are right in the middle of The Young and the Restless. Get with the program son. Sorry. Just thought this thread needed a bit of humour. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/5/1 Richard Thomas xpd...@gmail.com: Also I would like to point out that if you make use of virtual desktops feature I have 9 desktops It very very easy to miss the pop up as on my machine it shows on desktop one while i tend work on other desktops and have firefox open on full screen on desktop one. just totally missing the popup till i click shutdown and i briefly show as X closes Luckily your system isn't prone to security issues when it's switched off :) -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 17:56 +, mac_v wrote: +1 .but the only thing would be to drop beneath in a few seconds * only when the user is working * but *remain persistent until the users returns to the system* and starts to work. That seems a good idea. However, there are a couple use cases where it would be wrong to have it on top but the user would not seem to be working. Watching a full screen video, for example. Perhaps If screen is locked, stay on top until screen is unlocked, then apply default behaviour, stay on top for time T. This is a cleaner use case, I think, fewer what-ifs and exceptions to manage. but i think this would probably not be possible at present, right? probably Karmic? Not even, then, I would think, unless and until those doing the design and coding come to believe that another approach is required. also whats up with no actions in the notify-osd, rather than using the fall back alerts, why not use a good looking notify-osd with actions , when required! My apologies, I don't follow. Do you mean have a button on the semi-transparent notify widget Do Action A? If so, yes, I agree. There should likely be three: Do Action A, Dismiss (notification never returns), Snooze (notification returns sometime later; a default time could be displayed). -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 +1 this is a very nice idea. Also I like to state AGAIN: Why is choice such a big problem for you design people, if you want to remove the icons from the notificaion area by default, ok go ahead. But then give people who do like it the option to bring those icons back somehow!!! James Iry wrote: I want to chime in that the popup behavior is completely irritating. It also doesn't solve the problem it purports to solve regarding users ignoring important updates. When it pops up in the middle of some important task I just cuss and click the close button at which point the update will likely be forgotten until the next time it pops up and I close it, cussing again. Pop under isn't a solution either since things that happen in the background by definition are going to be unnoticed. A completely reasonable solution would be to re-add the notification icon but animate it subtly (a slow flash, bounce, periodic rotation, whatever) for important security updates. That would be far less intrusive than a pop-up but still hard to miss accidentally. The animation could continue until the user acknowledges it in some way (install now, install later, go away). If the user chooses install later the icon could remain until installed but could be non-animated. This would be a persistent low grade reminder that the user still needs to take action. The icon could also reanimate after some number of days of inattention. This should all be integrated with OSD notifications an important security update is available. Similar text should be used as a tool tip for the icon. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJJ+hWJAAoJEC3c23gFjIjfwDcP+wT9F1YYLF+mtMwmaPkhi8/Z bM3/UE+8WP8l7Vh0pfNSW1/juRbV7iwCNXcCC8roVsmWgMx9MnQxkAIuo1443LCz cbdXszUw8Wx5gPriJBXz+HTj6bzAtweqvU2E2CyY5d9Dfyo3xpYV7r8/H3naCcK9 Wl1epKRmFkS/KZ+2eFHZYE2tYTeSBvQJrWGkCS6UN267EzpgOhStKvv1zh/p9YTG EZ4P2EPk4sNUL11XMdFoThPTIu8FTPuV+TAqfcXECeveA7JfNbhoeEnlqZ+hfsEb iMUj/dqWLflQaOXm6SDrle2XDNxmRAJ2hiwLM3SazYHkdGnwMu+8j/04xm2IdLH2 1kuxa7FR5VQJf+meBJENNFzBVjNm/nxLLazuGmCow41PIbnNyrrFXxzvFD2vDFAJ 4fgIlf9OGMIWOrND/qA6mF/0PgpiXSX4a1dl1Jnnpzilj8L3lvMqOjg7g95n+uND 9bo+DOjVfK92KBH9Pgqe6LcYMgK3STjZWBJ/BG59OcZnwM87FMycjJJ18+3WDqUx prXZPyKlADe+RgufnjeD6VWq+Fhls3c7eGrl7h4iPPQ/KpAIwRLQGkQWRkNRHCo/ MW6m0XuL7WkpkLU3PhT6Sx14B2nxjKLgAJsGv9qiNYyIbuS1ZRvPymgH/uoCwHDb NsHO5wfjDt+6qAq0TzPv =mRcl -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Peter Whittaker wrote: Watching a full screen video, for example. i dont think that full screen video/any video are a problem, since gnome-screen saver recognizes when videos are playing, something similar probably could be worked in for detection. but the real problem will be with flash firefox videos, gnome-screen saver doesnt recognize them yet.! but even then,it wont be a bother as much as the screensaver taking up the whole screen! Not even, then, I would think, unless and until those doing the design and coding come to believe that another approach is required. i think they DO realize that the present method isnt perfect[well thats what Matthew accepts], they just havent realized a better solution... why dont u mock up something for the UDS / ayatana discussions? maybe people might agree this time. Do you mean have a button on the semi-transparent notify widget Do Action A? If so, yes, I agree. There should likely be three: Do Action A, Dismiss (notification never returns), Snooze (notification returns sometime later; a default time could be displayed). yeah, in the notify-osd wiki, it says no action buttons allowed,and that in cases where actions buttons are to be used, fall back alerts are to be used, WHY? that is a good looking notification system, why not use it with color coding to notify important stuff like, updates? that is one of the reasons update notifier cannot be done with notify-osd... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/30 Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com: Matt Wheeler, LanoxxthShaddow: We removed the icon because we're trying to reduce the number of items in the notification area, and update- notifier was an easy one to start with because Notify OSD forced us to solve the 'Click the icon'? What icon? problem anyway. And I would reiterate my point that I think that decision was wrong. Regardless of whether you have the update-manager window opening automatically, I think the notification icon should remain. I think (like many others that have commented) that a persistent notification is important. As I've said, I'm now more happy with the idea of a self-opening update-manager having seen it work for someone else (although I was at the same guy's house earlier today and noticed he was annoyed that it had popped up while he was trying to work, it will probably still have the end result that he installs his updates more quickly). If the notification icon appeared at the same time as the window, and remained there until the updates were installed, he would be more likely to remember to install his updates (they were not new today) when he finished working, rather than just forgetting. I know you will probably say 'the notification icon should not be there', but I disagree, I think this if anything is one thing that *does* have a right to be in the notification area. It is a *notification* of the state of the system. -- Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.comwrote: John Clemens: The issue of trying to guess when is the best time to interrupt people is a tricky problem for notifications in general. As getut pointed out, you're conflating interruption with notification. Notifications, like an icon appearing in the notification area and a transient bubble saying hey, you have updates is not an interruption. Notifications can happen at any time, you don't need to guess the best time. This is how they work in Intrepid. Interruptions are opening full blown applications that require user interaction without the user requesting them. You have chosen to interrupt people, which is where I think you're wrong. There is another way... Unfortunately, never is not a viable choice for a mass-market OS on an Internet-connected computer. If you have specific suggestions of heuristics we could use to choose more appropriate times, we'd be delighted to hear them. You're presenting a false choice. Noone is saying you shouldn't notify users of updates. A persistent notification of updates are available is EXACTLY what we want... like we had in intrepid. I can not suggest any heuristics for you, because it's impossible for update manager to know when would be a good time to update. The only entity that has that information is the user, so stop trying to make a decision for them. You're only guessing, and most of the time you're wrong. I design software all the time, and the first thing you look at when looking at an architecture diagram is find out if each part has enough knowledge to make the decision it needs to make. You need two pieces of information to install updates: 1) that updates are available, and 2) when would be a good time to install them. Update manager can only know number 1, the user is the only one who knows number 2. The proper thing to do in this case is tell the user there are updates available, and let them choose when to install them. The update manager notification method in intrepid understood these truths and acted accordingly. You would argue that opening update manager is a persistent notification, and I would disagree. It's a transient interruption. I've kept the jaunty way running on my box for a few days.. and I hate it. People, myself included, close the update window because we're annoyed at being interrupted, without installing updates. Once closed, there is no persistent reminder. In Intrepid, I got a small 20x20 icon that was a constant but unobtrusive reminder. In jaunty I get interrupted with at random intervals (random because of 'security updates', some of which I don't need). Improve the icon if you want, update the verbiage in the notification and tooltip; but don't guess randomly and then throw your arms up in the air when the user closes a random window that showed up and winds up not installing updates, only to repeat the process 7 days later. Please, please reconsider. -- John Clemens cle...@gmail.com -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 15:49 +, getut wrote: The issue of trying to guess when is the best time to interrupt people MPT... never IS a perfectly valid answer to INTERRUPTING a user. +1, mod parent up, etc. At the risk of seeming like I am in love with my own ideas, this was why I proposed the semi transparent, always present, one window down notification widget. It would appear from the top right for system notifications (you should upgrade) and the bottom right for user notifications (you have an IM, email, etc.). The notification would appear above the current window (unless operating fullscreen) but would NOT have focus, then drop beneath after a few seconds. When than window is closed or minimized, the notification would be there, then drop down one again. Repeat as necessary. When all windows are closed/minimized, it would be there, without focus. It would say click here to learn more or something like. Or even click here to take action. It would also always have two other buttons: Snooze and dismiss. To me, this is as good as the persistent icon, since it is persistent, but better since it is always there, until the user takes action. It is better than the current approach, because it is always there, and because it differentiates between system and user notifications. Being semi-transparent and dropping away automatically make it more ignorable. Being present until action is taken make it not-ignorable, but in a far less obnoxious way than popups. Other system notifications (volume changes, network connection changes, etc.) would be ephemeral: Appear, then disappear. No action is required, but sometimes the reminder is nice. There would be defaults for what system and what is user, and these would be determined by the community. Administrators would able to modify the system list (for a machine or group of machines). Users would be able to modify the user list for their account. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Peter Whittaker wrote: On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 15:49 +, getut wrote: The issue of trying to guess when is the best time to interrupt people MPT... never IS a perfectly valid answer to INTERRUPTING a user. +1, mod parent up, etc. At the risk of seeming like I am in love with my own ideas, this was why I proposed the semi transparent, always present, one window down notification widget. It would appear from the top right for system notifications (you should upgrade) and the bottom right for user notifications (you have an IM, email, etc.). The notification would appear above the current window (unless operating fullscreen) but would NOT have focus, then drop beneath after a few seconds. When than window is closed or minimized, the notification would be there, then drop down one again. Repeat as necessary. When all windows are closed/minimized, it would be there, without focus. It would say click here to learn more or something like. Or even click here to take action. It would also always have two other buttons: Snooze and dismiss. To me, this is as good as the persistent icon, since it is persistent, but better since it is always there, until the user takes action. It is better than the current approach, because it is always there, and because it differentiates between system and user notifications. Being semi-transparent and dropping away automatically make it more ignorable. Being present until action is taken make it not-ignorable, but in a far less obnoxious way than popups. Other system notifications (volume changes, network connection changes, etc.) would be ephemeral: Appear, then disappear. No action is required, but sometimes the reminder is nice. There would be defaults for what system and what is user, and these would be determined by the community. Administrators would able to modify the system list (for a machine or group of machines). Users would be able to modify the user list for their account. +1 .but the only thing would be to drop beneath in a few seconds * only when the user is working * but *remain persistent until the users returns to the system* and starts to work . @ Peter but i think this would probably not be possible at present, right ? probably Karmic? also whats up with no actions in the notify-osd, rather than using the fall back alerts, why not use a good looking notify-osd with actions , when required! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Self appointed benevolent dictator for life ;) Torben wrote: It is sad to see, but I think this will not be the last big dissapointment. Sure you can't satisfy all users at any time, but what is claimed to be leadership here is the kind of spirit I wouldn't expect from a linux distribution called Ubuntu. The next big hit will probably be the replacement of Rhythmbox through Banshee (Mono) for Karmic, I bet there won't be a lot of public discussions around, they will just do it like they brought that notify-madness in. Don't get me wrong here, I don't want to open another Mono discussion here, it is just that Ubuntu shouldn't ignore and disregard big parts of it's user base on topics people have strong feelings about. This regression and how (late) it came silently to Jaunty made a lot of people feel like noone here cares about the community, leadership more like dictatorship. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Jamin W. Collins: By gratuitously difficult I meant you had to (1) notice the icon, (2) recall that orange starburst = updates available (possibly assisted by a notification bubble, if you happened to look during the time the bubble was visible), (3) click on it (the panel icon, not the bubble!), and (4) click a button in a separate window. With the behavior I designed, you needed to (1) click the button in the window. With the 9.04 behavior you need to (1) notice the minimized window, (2) unminimize it, and (3) click the button in the window. That's not nearly as good, but it's still easier than the 8.10 behavior, because the window switcher button is (usually much) larger than the icon was. Uwe Schilling, Thomas Nardone: As I have already explained several times, this is far from the only time programs need to open windows unprompted; and conversely, even with a browser blocking popup windows, a determined Web site author can still open popup windows or things that look like windows. Therefore, trying to distinguish real prompts from fake ones by whether they open manually or automatically is dangerously wrong. Better defence mechanisms include making Web windows more obviously non-native (with help from both the browser and the Ubuntu theme), and more informative handling of downloaded executables (Windows Vista and especially Mac OS X do a much better job of that than Ubuntu does). pingou67: The old behavior was, and is, unacceptable with the introduction of Notify OSD. Click on the icon? What icon? Imre Gergely: An option like that would be meaningless to most humans, as you'd discover if you tried to mock it up. Keith Buel: We aim for the point where you wouldn't need to tell your parents *anything* about keeping the computer up to date -- it would be self-explanatory. The icon didn't meet that standard, and never could without disrupting your work like Windows does. The updates window may not meet that standard yet, but we'll fine-tune the design until it does. hurga, James Dowden: You guys are adorable. Noel J. Bergman: I have seen no evidence, in this bug report or anywhere else, of the simple need for a form of persistent notification for software updates. The closest to this I've seen is a problem where alpha testers tried to report crasher bugs on out-of-date packages and were rejected, but apport could be smarter about inviting you to update, and it's not as if Ubuntu is short of bug reports anyway. slithy: You have been misled. There is no other method of handling notifications for updates planned. wait for it... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I was initially opposed to this change as a default, but having spoken to a friend who upgraded to Jaunty just after the release I am much happier about the idea of testing it on 'the masses'. My friend, who is quite technical (works in the IT department in a school), said he preferred the new system because before he would just ignore the orange icon (even though he knew what it meant). Is there a reliable way to meter how people respond to updates, compared to how they did in 8.10, so we can know with reasonable certainty that the new system gets more people upgrading? -- Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Jamin W. Collins: By gratuitously difficult I meant you had to (1) notice the icon, (2) recall that orange starburst = updates available (possibly assisted by a notification bubble, if you happened to look during the time the bubble was visible), (3) click on it (the panel icon, not the bubble!), and (4) click a button in a separate window. With the behavior I designed, you needed to (1) click the button in the window. With the 9.04 behavior you need to (1) notice the minimized window, (2) unminimize it, and (3) click the button in the window. That's not nearly as good, but it's still easier than the 8.10 behavior, because the window switcher button is (usually much) larger than the icon was. Matthew this shows just how biased u are towards the behavior u designed u forgot that the new method also needs a recall + an additional step of wondering when did i open the update window, so the count is _5_ steps for the new system even if u want to count it as 4[recall is definitely a step for new windows] why replace a system ,which u urself acknowledge as not nearly as good ,for the existing working method which involves the same number of steps? if u are not making it easier then why change? the present design DOES NOT make it in anyway shorter or easier, its just ur bias which makes it seem so. a good design should NOT exist only from ones own point of view , but also an unbiased view from all sides... Uwe Schilling, Thomas Nardone: As I have already explained several times, this is far from the only time programs need to open windows unprompted; and conversely, even with a browser blocking popup windows, a determined Web site author can still open popup windows or things that look like windows. Therefore, trying to distinguish real prompts from fake ones by whether they open manually or automatically is dangerously wrong. Better defence mechanisms include making Web windows more obviously non-native (with help from both the browser and the Ubuntu theme), and more informative handling of downloaded executables (Windows Vista and especially Mac OS X do a much better job of that than Ubuntu does). so rather than making it hard u are making it easier for the malicious guys, by creating such security holes ? and telling other softwares to be better at their job for the holes u create? The updates window may not meet that standard yet, but we'll fine-tune the design until it does. why didnt u wait till the design meets the standard? this is like serving uncooked food and saying it would be better when it is fully cooked, what we are saying is why wasnt it fully cooked before being force fed[made a part for the ubuntu-desktop]? I have seen no evidence, in this bug report or anywhere else, of the simple need for a form of persistent notification for software updates. u want an example? the graphics card for my laptop has now changed from fglrx to Ati drivers and i'v been having several abrupt X-session shutdowns even in this completed OS, but this is not a security issue in the real sense, but when i get the updates for this driver i wouldnt be notified until a week later , but what if i get disrupted in the middle of an important work and loose all the work? i'v already had several X restarts several times, but since i NOW save my work regularly i dont loose data as i did initially... guess u are waiting for an evidence to debunk 'your design'... the design is a disaster waiting to happen! atleast for me... another example:just a few days ago firefox released security updates back to back in a couple of days,since it was a security updateit was notified immediately, but for regular updates the interval is 7 days,when an update is done sometimes it might not work well for everyone, only on the release the devs might know about this and correct it immediately, so when u have set the default for 7 days the user has to wait for another update which might have been available the very next day? u could have set the pop-ups to show up ONLY when the user hasnt updated for a considerable amount of time. from ur explanations it just shows ur passion to defend your new design behavior, but the problem is that not once do u acknowledge the design flaws others point out, and consider that it would be looked into, this is what the whole bug report is about the devs are just being close minded to their design and not thinking from a general point of view, and not seriously considering the valid problems several users have raised... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: I have seen no evidence, in this bug report or anywhere else, of the simple need for a form of persistent notification for software updates. have u considered that these update windows WONT GET NOTICED, when the user is working in other windows and only noticed the new window after all other windows are closed? at the end of the day, when all work is done and when the user is about to shutdown, he notices the update for a huge update[since 7 days of wait], which he could have done while he was working. but now he has to wait for the update to complete before he leaves or if he chooses not to update, he will only be reminded of the update next week, or he has to remember that he needs to update on the next boot? so that adds another 3 - 4 steps[ MEMORIZE to update the system in the morning] to the new design pls dont be close minded while designing! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Stanislaw Pitucha wrote: 2. (in case of us) Think - did I forget to close it after the last upgrade, or was I waiting for package list update to finish, or is it notifying me about new upgrades so i'm not the only one this happened to me when i got the firefox security update! when previously i had done a manual update a couple of hours earlier without a notification of some sort its always a *magical experience* . -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matt Wheeler wrote: My friend, who is quite technical (works in the IT department in a school), said he preferred the new system because before he would just ignore the orange icon (even though he knew what it meant). quite technical but doesnt update? wow! and works in the IT department! i wonder what he really teaches? wait till system has problems then its good to understand and analyze? maybe good for learning all the problems one can get into when proper updates are not done... this would have sounded better if it was a non technical person ignoring updates, but this IT person know the risks he runs into by not updating regularly -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
getut wrote: Can anyone give a definite answer on how long the gconf command to revert to old behavior will be supported going forward? AFAIK, the gconf method is currently not *supported*. It does work but it is not a *supported* option. So, I believe we have our answer. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/29 mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com: Matt Wheeler wrote: My friend, who is quite technical (works in the IT department in a school), said he preferred the new system because before he would just ignore the orange icon (even though he knew what it meant). quite technical but doesnt update? wow! and works in the IT department! He doesn't teach, but that is irrelevant, and confirms my point. If even IT staff are ignoring updates unless they are prompted by a window opening, how many normal users are doing the same? I actually don't like the windows popping up, but I am quite happy setting the gconf key to revert to the old behaviour. If the changes mean more people will keep their system up to date then I think it is a good thing. Actually I think that keeping the orange/red notification icon *as well* as making the window pop up could be a good default, as it would satisfy the desire to have a persistent notification, as well as being a more obvious prompt that something needs to be done. In fact, if an icon in the update-manager window matches the notification icon that would serve to demostrate what the icon in the notification area is for, as well as helping to confirm that this window is trustworthy (notification icon appears at the same time as the window, clicking on the icon focuses the window). -- Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Apr 29, 2009 10:10am, Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org wrote He doesn't teach, but that is irrelevant, and confirms my point. If even IT staff are ignoring updates unless they are prompted by a window opening, how many normal users are doing the same? Unlike mac_v, I will not disparage your IT friend for not installing updates immediately. Sometimes there are valid reasons not to install updates. That updated kernel that contains a security fix for a filesystem I don't use, may actually break my wireless card, or my scsi controller. That new version of open office may break a plugin I'm using. It's happened in the past. In fact, good IT people will often test updates on a test machine before installing on their own systems. This goes for every OS, not just Ubuntu. Remember, almost all updates include new features (potential bugs) as well as bug fixes. Ubuntu can't test everything in your environment, just like Apple or MS can't. Using your logic above, would you prefer to have the entire screen gray out and the update manager pop up and be the only thing you can do? That would force people to update, even your IT friend... but is that a good thing? no. If that's what you want, then you should just install all updates automatically without asking the user. I know it's not what I want... Perhaps it's not a good time to install updates. Like you're at a friend's place with metered internet and don't want to run up their bill, or you're on a cell phone connection, or you're not even on a network at the time. Or your significant other is using your computer when the window comes up, they close it and forget to tell you about it. Instead of having a persistent, small icon in the corner of your screen telling you there are updates when you're ready, you have to maximize the update manager and then close it, and then remember to update at some other time because there's no reminder. See my earlier posts in this thread for use cases like the above which were never addressed. This change forces Ubuntu to make a lot of assumptions about my life and my usage. It's impossible for Ubuntu to know when would be a good time for me to update, therefore opening the update manager at random intervals is annoying, nagging, confusing and counterproductive. And that's without getting into the argument over whether auto-launching full, interactive applications without the user requesting them is good UI design or not. This is not an attack on the developers who do a wonderful job. I even understand the overall goal, although I think it's misguided. I simply think this change is wrong and makes Ubuntu more confusing, not less, and as someone who wants Ubuntu to be the best it can be I'd like to see it reverted. I am concerned that there is a bit of bunker mentality with the developers, which given some of the virtiol on this board is not completely unexpected, and I would encourage them to reconsider. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: mac_v: As I explained in the very text you quoted, we are not creating such security holes: that problem already exists, regardless of Update Manager. As for your food analogy, you are confusing perfect with better. We switched to Notify OSD, with the necessary Update Manager changes, even though it wasn't perfect, because it was already better than the alternative. You make a good point about critical non-security updates (e.g. fixes to graphic driver crashes) vs. security updates, and that's something I'll discuss with other Ubuntu developers as part of the AppCenter work. Perhaps we could have critical and major tiers of updates, instead of security and non-security. @Matthew Paul Thomas, 1the security holes i'm referring to is *user acceptance * to the appearance of pop-ups, if there are no pop-ups by any app then the user will be concerned when any app open a pop-up but since now that u are creating a pop-up acceptance behavior , the user will not be alarmed by a malicious pop-up. this is how non-technical users get tricked. this is really a security issue. 2the food analogy was because u had proposed options to choose the daily display of updates but this option is not available. when will that option be available? 3also, looks like the App Centre idea has been around since 2005, any ideas when that might be implemented? -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
hurga wrote: manager window means, so nothing gained. Put the issue up for a vote, where the majority of ubuntu users can vote and don't decide over peoples head. @hurga http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19283/ this voting has already been going on regarding this notifier at brainstorm... and mostly everyone wants to have the icon back -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
There was one dev that came here and stated (and to which I agree) that if the devs kept listening to everyones complaints Ubuntu wouldn't have changed since 4.10. There are those that are truly resistant to change and constantly badger devs because they didn't get what they wanted. On that note, I think people are trying to bash these devs in, like their the unlikely participants in a whack-a-dev game. I'm not totally liking that theres no persistent notification of updates (through an Icon or whatever), but like all ubuntu releases there are changes that people have to get used to. It sometimes feels like theres people who think they're the only one that matters when opinions about changes are made, not thinking about all the other users who _may_ like this feature. Although it appears as if I'm on the side of a lot of people on here, I really wish the personal attacks on devs would stop. It's just not right. ~Brian Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. --Wernher Von Braun The second law of thermodynamics: If you think things are in a mess now, JUST WAIT!! On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:30 AM, getut rtklu...@ngkceramics.com wrote: Although I do agree that some of the comments are a bit harsh, I also fear that if enough people do not squawk, and squawk loudly, this will be dropped. Many of the devs have come on here and shrugged this off with the statement, You have a way to get the old functionality back so what is the big deal. How long will the ability to get the old functionality back remain if no one squawks? If no one squawks, will the gconf hack still work in the next release or two? The big deal is that the old functionality wasn't broken. Why change it. If we squawk loudly enough can we get the ludicrous idea of a POPUP or POPUNDER crushed under a train where it belongs and go back to the nice unobtrusive but persistent notification? I don't care if a popup or popunder comes up and does my entire days work for me automatically. If I didn't open the window, it shouldn't be there. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber of the bug. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
James Dowden wrote: I had thought this was just a bug in the beta version, but I did not know which package to report it against. Now I've read this and I am totally outraged by this deliberate regression. As for Mark Shuttleworth's ludicrous assumption that only coding experts want the previous default behavior, it shows a distinct need to get out more. I am not a coder, and I'm not a particular fan of pasting half- understood unsupported (talk about brazenness!) commands into a terminal, but I do want a system that works. This sort of half-baked dogfood belongs in some PPA so that it can be properly criticized, not in a release. Then we could have had the discussions about the Settings button on Update Manager not doing what it says and so on in a proper way. Instead of devs coming on here and arrogantly marking things as Invalid and Won't Fix, they should pause for a moment and realize that they have abused process to create a mess. The correct response would be to apologize to the users and issue the old version as a security fix (after all, it delays vital updates!), whilst restarting the development process after a more community-oriented fashion. If such an apology is not forthcoming, we should concluded that the devs concerned's injection of code that sabotages functionality is malicious, that is to say a virus rather than a bug, and we should seek to have their write access to the repos withdrawn. @James... a bit too harsh there pal... i'm one among the users who are vocal here , against the new change, but asking the devs for an apology, is way out there!!! i'm sure the devs wanted to improve the OS, but maybe this just wasnt a good move, but atleast we have the gconf options. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 21:38 +, mac_v wrote: a bit too harsh there pal... Harsh? Perhaps. But given the comparative levels of user frustration and development intransigence, the frustration is understandable. asking the devs for an apology, is way out there!!! Absolutely not. At this point, I'm starting to think that a contrite mea culpa is the only way forward. People make mistakes. Most of the time, admitting and accepting and moving on is the best approach. But sometimes, when an error is upheld for so long by the errant party, well, the errant party should apologize. Up to this point, I've tried to confine my responses to pointing out the obvious flaws in the Jaunty approach, to proposing alternatives, and to suggesting how the process for introducing these changes could have perhaps been improved. Not because of any inner saintliness, but because I've spat vinegar a time or two and I've learned the hard way how much it gets done. But the development team response from SABDFL on down has been so poor in this area that I'm starting to think vitriol is all we have left. So, yeah, I think we, the Ubuntu community deserve an apology for how this was introduced, for how it was clung too dogmatically in the face of so much opposition of such quality, and for simple intransigence. I don't think asking for apology is off base at all. pww -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno ven, 24/04/2009 alle 09.43 +, hurga ha scritto: Revert this, and whoever signed off on that change should be spanked, hard. I would not want _these persons_ to be spanked. In any case ubuntu developers have done an extremely good job across the years. Dapper was nothing more than a toy, if compared to other distributions. A toy with an idea. Now I am _entirely_ against this change, but I understand that they have reasons for that. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Just to give my two cents on the subject: I'm in favour of keeping the notification icon for a simple reason. Someone (I don't remember if Mark or someone else) mentioned, from what I got, that the notification area has been used by applications, and to avoid confusion we should remove it from there. So, the problem is not the area itself, it's the applications! The notification area is there to give notifications, if the applications are using it too much then (using this argument) the applications should be using something else, not the notifications. This is the same as changing your address because you are receiving too much junk mail. My suggestion (and I know this isn't something to be decided in a couple of days) is to keep two areas, one for applications that run in background and want to hide from the window list, like pidgin, network manager, skype, power manager, bittorrent, etc. (citing the list in my desktop right now), and another area for notifications, like updates, new mail, or whatever else needs my attention at some point in the near future (I liked the patient notifications mentioned before). If someone wants to keep both together, just put both areas in the same place. But I'm in favour of an option to keep the notification icon, so that everyone can choose the behaviour. If you think usability dictates the use of a pop-under window, keep this option default, but I'm used to that, as is a lot of people around, and I'd love to keep it there. And this is the behaviour that people migrating from some other major OSs are used to. Well, that's my opinion. I didn't read all the two hundred and something comments on the subject (I over-read the eighty first and been following the last couple of days), but I think this could be considered. -- Jonatan Schroeder, MSc. Teaching Assistant, PhD Student UBC - Computer Science jona...@cs.ubc.ca - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~jonatan The box said: Requires MS Windows or better, then I installed GNU/Linux! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
I believe Roshan was talking about the notificaion area: I cannot imagine why getting rid of an updates _notification_ in a _notification area_ was reasonable. This is very annoying. Maybe you should read his post again. Jonathan Davies wrote: Roshan: That is a separate issue - see bug #356152 for more details. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stanislaw Pitucha wrote: Yeah... affects me too. why doesnt canonical add a voting system where the users can vote for a feature... the new notification system is good, but poorly planned... the *devs could have held off the app push atleast until the update manager had options as proposed* in the Notify-osd wiki... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknsLC0ACgkQ8QR4RbuR48CHlQCfVrknW3p0dhBSygoJIuGMAHQc ekAAn0Igj5Vv/D8ju1PtdU2IAgsiYti6 =Uu7C -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/20 mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com: why doesnt canonical add a voting system where the users can vote for a feature... http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ Just because something is popular, doesn't make it right. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/20 mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com: why doesnt canonical add a voting system where the users can vote for a feature... http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ Just because something is popular, doesn't make it right. I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Alan Pope wrote: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ Just because something is popular, doesn't make it right. @alan i'v know about brain storm... but its for new ideas and implementation... i suggest for voting already implemented new features... i understand that popular doesnt mean right... * but right or wrong doesnt have to be forced down peoples throats * ... this new feature is not fully functional as proposed in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#Update%20Manager without the settings available, * the user has no control over the updates* , its just the default 1 week display for the updates other than security updates... the whole problem is the incomplete implementation of a good idea... wouldnt it have been better to leave the update manager alone until u could have made the settings available? notify-osd as a whole is incomplete, but to break the update settings for the notify-osd is what the users dont understand... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
xpd259 wrote: a simple notification bubble been shown every x min is more then enough to notify a user to update with out intruding on the users desktop +1 ^ this is a lovely idea... xpd i hope u can add this to the notify-osd comments section -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
s/everybody/a vocal minority/ Regarding the number of duplicates and comments, I don't believe it's a vocal minority. And regarding all the opposition, maybe a kind of survey would be nice to be sure the feature is benefic to Ubuntu users or not. At least I find it's premature to enable this behaviour for Jaunty, the few feedback is negative and no positive feedback has been reported as far as I know... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/20 Philippe Escarbassière phil_...@club-internet.fr: I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... s/everybody/a vocal minority/ -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
+1 please do a survey or make a poll available for users to vote. There are currently about 20 bugs with (from what I see) the majority of the people complaining about it. This is not a minor thing. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno lun, 20/04/2009 alle 09.27 +, Alan Pope ha scritto: I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... s/everybody/a vocal minority/ This comment is anti-scientific. Either you invent a survey and convince users (ubuntu or launchpad users, and it makes a difference already) to take it, or you stick with the only numbers that we have now. V. -- It is also important to note that hedgehogs do not actually hurt each other when they get close to one another. Actually, when living in groups, hedgehogs often sleep close to each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog%27s_dilemma -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
xpd259 wrote: a simple notification bubble been shown every x min is more then enough to notify a user to update with out intruding on the users desktop @Matthew Paul Thomas , Alan Pope consider this idea instead of the pop-under... i understand this is not immediately possible, but hope u could consider it into future development... u have a nice notification system, so rather than using the pop-under, use the notify-osd for the update notification... u guys already have a proposal for the actions keys in the notify-osd for situations where it is absolutely required, so just have a single button for the user to choose update now , and making the notify-osd stay longer for these update notification... so they end up being less intrusive than the pop-under windows and atleast have an option for the reminder , x mins , which users can choose from... i think is might be a good idea for consideration... -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alan Pope wrote: 2009/4/20 Philippe EscarbassiÚre phil_...@club-internet.fr: I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... s/everybody/a vocal minority/ yeah maybe we are the minority who think that they can improve this linux flavor , but signing up for an account , and submitting/commenting on a bug report... rather than *the will be majority * of people who * would dump Ubuntu * for some other linux flavor , if the devs continue to have such an attitude... why have the comments section for the 'vocal minority' ? and just not cut the comment[vocal] section out which make the minority less of a bother to devs...! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAknsYOgACgkQ8QR4RbuR48Dk0QCgmxINZfCKa3+Xm1bIbA+EvhW6 kUgAnRQpIxiFycdY3JHfu7t6UDFLjwN+ =Ul3n -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Alan Pope wrote: 2009/4/20 Philippe EscarbassiÚre phil_...@club-internet.fr: I'm not sure building a feature everybody dislikes is better... s/everybody/a vocal minority/ yeah maybe we are the minority who think that they can improve this linux flavor , but signing up for an account , and submitting/commenting on a bug report... rather than *the will be majority * of people who * would dump Ubuntu * for some other linux flavor , if the devs continue to have such an attitude... why have the comments section for the 'vocal minority' ? and just not cut the comment[vocal] section out which make the minority less of a bother to devs...! -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno lun, 20/04/2009 alle 14.37 +, xpd259 ha scritto: simple answer .. unofficial answer but here is a poll http://www.doodle.com/h7shad47ffgpxpyq Am I reading Mark Shuttleworth voting for the old-style notification? Perhaps a poll with launchpad authentication would be better... v. -- It is also important to note that hedgehogs do not actually hurt each other when they get close to one another. Actually, when living in groups, hedgehogs often sleep close to each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog%27s_dilemma -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
@Jonathan I didn't speak about developers. I'm a developer myself and I try not to bash other developers and respect their work. But I listen to users feedback too. In this case, even if 221 votes are not a proof (plus other forum posts and wiki comments), it's clearly an indication this new behavior is not welcome to everybody. That's why I find this change premature. And some other constructive comments posted here are very good argument against it too. Now, since it's too late to revert a default gconf value, let's see how this feature/bug will be accepted by Ubuntu community and, if it's clearly rejected, let's hope next bug reports like this one will be taken more seriously. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
2009/4/20 xpd259 xpd...@gmail.com simple answer .. unofficial answer but here is a poll http://www.doodle.com/h7shad47ffgpxpyq Well, it's conclusive, obviously - 25 people have voted in favour of the old system so far, including Bill Gates, The Real Slim Shady and the Big Bird off of Sesame Street, versus only 2 people for the new style notification. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno lun, 20/04/2009 alle 14.37 +, xpd259 ha scritto: simple answer .. unofficial answer but here is a poll http://www.doodle.com/h7shad47ffgpxpyq Am I reading Mark Shuttleworth voting for the old-style notification? Perhaps a poll with launchpad authentication would be better... v. Brainstorm would be preferable here... Therer are already two ideas: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19283/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/18460/ Second one is my failed attempt at making a preemptive strike. Also wish to add my voice to the negative side here. The only good reason to go through with this is if it would indeed increase security, and make people more likely to install updates. I don't see this step helping that... A random window lying around (since it's opened in the background) will be closed, since this is not a normal way to notify people of updates. People are used to either focused dialogs, notification icons, or notification bubbles for this kind of information. And if people have to re-learn to be able to handle this behaviour as it is intended, then it has obviously failed. If we really wanted to take a step on security we would enable automatic security updates by default... This, is in my opinion an uneccesary step, which annoys without actaully acheiving what is intended. But then again I am writing here, so it doesn't really count. - Arand -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:01 +, Philippe Escarbassière wrote: @Jonathan I didn't speak about developers. I'm a developer myself and I try not to bash other developers and respect their work. But I listen to users feedback too. I wasn't picking you out in particular, I'm just hoping to avoid a bunch of stupid Ubuntu devs stuff. However, I think it's worth noting that Ubuntu developers do listen a lot to user feedback. The problem is that listen doesn't always mean do whatever a user wants. I've been trying to play it fairly neutral here, but perhaps it's worthwhile to say a few personal things. I was an early vocal critic of notify-osd, Dx team, etc. I had a few discussions with mpt on IRC about update-notifier/update-manager specifically. I called up the Ubuntu Community Manager and let him know what I thought and echoed a lot of the general sentiment on this bug report. The conversation was fruitful I think and I was told that much was being done to address the community feedback. In response to a lot of user and developer feedback quite a few changes are planned for Karmic Koala. One of the biggest problems I had with what happened in Jaunty is that notify-osd was landed so late in the development release cycle that very little in the way of corrections or polish could be done. However, Mark and several others felt that it was important to get the work that had been done out to users for testing and feedback. We'll just have to see how it works out. In this case, even if 221 votes are not a proof (plus other forum posts and wiki comments), it's clearly an indication this new behavior is not welcome to everybody. That's why I find this change premature. And some other constructive comments posted here are very good argument against it too. Yes, it is clear it isn't welcome by everybody, and unfortunately that is a fairly common occurrence in a project this large with as diverse a user population as we have. We have numerous examples (NetworkManager being one that seems sort of similar) where a consensus can take a very long time to achieve, if ever (there are still replace NM with wicd polls on the forums). I honestly think notify-osd was premature for Jaunty and wish it was put off until Karmic as a default. But that decision isn't up to me, and that's probably a good thing :-) There are a lot of good comments on the bug report, which is why I'm trying to direct people towards better places to put those constructive comments. Now, since it's too late to revert a default gconf value, let's see how this feature/bug will be accepted by Ubuntu community and, if it's clearly rejected, let's hope next bug reports like this one will be taken more seriously. I agree that we'll just have to wait and see, but I do firmly believe that these bug reports *are* taken seriously. I know many of the people involved, mpt, Mark, tedg, pitti, etc. and I can tell you that they very much take constructive comments seriously and are very interested in the user experience. I don't always agree with their decisions/implementations but I'm very confident in their skill and desire to make Ubuntu the best it can be. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 15:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Philippe, if we made only changes that were welcome to everybody, we wouldn't have changed anything since Ubuntu 4.10. s/everybody/most people/ or s/everybody/majority of users/ as I think the original intention of everybody was meant to be and I think your assertion is wrong. Trying to be absolutely literal with people's wording is not helping anyone. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Tue, 2009-04-14 at 09:26 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ami_nakata: Not only is it an implementation detail whether an automatically-opening window is from a newly-running application or an already-running application, it's an implementation detail whether *any* window is from a newly-running application or an already-running application. I think the point here is not to try to draw lines in the sand about who/what is opening windows but why they are being opened. A window that opens because I did something or because it's relevant to an application I am using is expected and non-intrusive. A window that opens that has nothing to do with what I am doing at the moment presumes that what it wants done is more important than what I am doing because it feels like it can interrupt *my* time to deal with it. That's just rude. To analogize to a real life situation... I may be with a group of people discussing something and it's perfectly fine for any one of those people to start talking and offer opinion on the conversation -- that is not interruption, but it is absolutely not alright for somebody to come interrupt the group to tell us about his family vacation last summer. It would be alright for somebody to come interrupt us to tell us the building we are in is on fire, but IMHO, update notification is not analogous to the building is burning down. That's why it belongs off to the side, as an unobtrusive icon I can notice and take action, when it's convenient for me. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
A few suggestions i'd like to add, -maybe they should popunder, then if the X is clicked push it to the messaging menu -the user then controls priority (its popped under as a high priority item), then if nothings done (an X (close) is clicked) it lowers in priority to the messaging menu -maybe high priority items that get closed (or not acted upon), can request a different color dot on the indicator applet, (or at least a more noticable change to the icon) Just a few suggestions that takes into account both sides of this issue, please disect this as you see fit. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Peter Whittaker wrote: On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 19:55 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: I think it's important that we not treat the OS specially, Mark, thanks for your comments. I think this one area where there is considerable disagreement: The OS is different - when the computer needs to tell me something, I probably shouldn't ignore it. Think firealarm. Yes, that's true. But there are some apps that have fire alarms too - imagine, for example, an app which monitors your RAID array and alerts you to failures and issues. My point is that we should have clear guidelines about what constitutes each mode of operation, and we should follow those as rigorously with the OS as we would hope apps do, as well. As soon as we make exceptions for ourself we are weakening our argument, a bit like politicians who give themselves raises and take their expenses out of the public eye at the same time as they are ridiculing bankers for their pay. I *think* we're in agreement here :-) Mark -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Il giorno gio, 09/04/2009 alle 07.38 +, Mark Shuttleworth ha scritto: My point is that we should have clear guidelines about what constitutes each mode of operation, and we should follow those as rigorously with the OS as we would hope apps do, as well. I dreamed of clear guidelines for the notification area for a long time. I have strong arguments in favour of modification to the behaviour chosen for jaunty; anyway I appreciate the fact that the window will be minimised. I would be happy if a bit more discussion, with use cases, and maybe numbers, would be done for jaunty+1, including the community. Not all of us have the time to try to become a developer, but all of us are very fond of our distribution and would like to see it in perfect shape. What would be the place to participate in the design of the notification-area related changes? Vincenzo -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 08:38 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Peter Whittaker wrote: The OS is different - when the computer needs to tell me something, I probably shouldn't ignore it. Think firealarm. Yes, that's true. But there are some apps that have fire alarms too - imagine, for example, an app which monitors your RAID array and alerts you to failures and issues. Ah! Now you are thinking like a technologist and not a user, differentiating between the OS and applications based on whether they are kernel or user space, as opposed to what they actually do! From the perspective of many - I would think most - users, something that monitors RAID - or monitors anything about the state of the computer for that matter - is not an application, it's part of the computer. In that view, applications are things users start to get the computer to do what they want to do: email, IM, edit video, etc. My point is that we should have clear guidelines about what constitutes each mode of operation, and we should follow those as rigorously with the OS as we would hope apps do, as well. If you read my comments on the wiki page, you'll see I make clear distinctions between system and user notifications: Let's apply that distinction consistently. A user notification is a doorbell, it appears in the user notification area, near where the user keeps their stuff. A system notification is a firealarm and appears in the system notification area, where other systemy things are. Both use the same underlying technologies - API calls that bring up bubbles - but the presentation is different: firealarms and doorbells are presented differently and both are different from normal apps. As soon as we make exceptions for ourself we are weakening our argument And foolish consistency makes a poorer system. Think back to the lack of PageUp/PageDown under OpenStep on the Next boxes, because Steve Jobs held the view it was a screen, not a page. So arrow keys giving you a line at a time were the only way to scroll. Jobs was being 100% consistent in his view, and missing the point that ScreenUp/ScreenDown would have been handy. I *think* we're in agreement here :-) Actually, not so much. Hence all of the on-going debate on this. It's one thing to see a design, another to see the implementation. Some of us saw the design and said cool. Many of us saw the implementation and said Whoa, not cool. -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Peter Whittaker wrote: If you read my comments on the wiki page, you'll see I make clear distinctions between system and user notifications: Let's apply that distinction consistently. A user notification is a doorbell, it appears in the user notification area, near where the user keeps their stuff. A system notification is a firealarm and appears in the system notification area, where other systemy things are. So, a user notification is something like John emailed you, and a system notification is something like Your network disappeared? Mark -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: What would be the place to participate in the design of the notification-area related changes? Join the Ayatana team mailing list on Launchpad! Mark -- [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 332945] Re: [Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 11:41 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Peter Whittaker wrote: If you read my comments on the wiki page, you'll see I make clear distinctions between system and user notifications: Let's apply that distinction consistently. A user notification is a doorbell, it appears in the user notification area, near where the user keeps their stuff. A system notification is a firealarm and appears in the system notification area, where other systemy things are. So, a user notification is something like John emailed you, and a system notification is something like Your network disappeared? Yes, exactly. They are different events, different types of events, and need to be handled differently. If I ignore the doorbell, chances are I've missed a friend or a chance to donate to a worthy cause; chances are I'll have another chance at either/both. If I ignore a firealarm, well, it's not the sort of thing you do more than once, is it? So John emailed you appears ephemerally in the user notification area (mentally, I'm viewing this as bottom-right, where the bubble fades up from the bottom, stopping with its bottom edge attached to the bottom bar). Your network disappeared appears in the system notification area, using the same mechanism (my little mental picture is bubble fading down from the top right, stopping with its bottom edge attached to the top bar). If necessary, they can decorated with something akin to traffic signals (yellow triangles for suspicious conditions, red octagons for serious conditions, etc., though I would like this to be configurable). Generally, user notifications are ephemeral, allowing us to ignore them; the one obvious exception is a user-triggered reminder, that is, a reminder of a ToDo, meeting, etc., entered by the user. (Preference allows the user to make buddy or email notifications, etc., persistent if they want, and all user notifications are user configurable.) System notifications fall into three classes: The always ephemeral, the always persistent, and the ephemeral-but-may-signal-a-problem. Your battery is about to die, save your work is persistent (using the model I described previously - appear, then sink beneath the focused window, reappearing as focus rises). Important updates are available is also persistent. Always ephemeral would include Your battery is fully charged, you are now connected to network N, etc. Trickier are ephemeral-but-may-signal-a-problem: You are now disconnected from the network may or may not be a problem. Chances are, you undocked your laptop. But if you aren't on a laptop, chances are this is a problem. I'm of at least two minds as to how to resolve this. My first - and distinctly inelegant - inclination is to periodically remind the user (You've been disconnected for 90 minutes, is everything OK), perhaps even making the notification persistent after a time, but this would be disturbing to the laptop user who has deliberately gone off-line. My second - and preferred - inclination is an ephemeral bubble to draw attention coupled with a persistent NetworkManager icon showing current network state. I say preferred because it is fairly easy to do (since it is what happens now - no more work required) and because it is relatively elegant. (The only reasonable improvement I can see is to not raise the bubble until the machine is being used interactively, e.g., when the screen is unlocked, in order to ensure the bubble is displayed when it makes sense to do so - when it can be attended to.) My third - and downright potentially Rube Goldbergian - is to apply some sort of heuristics to determine how likely it is that the network disappearing was intended. If the machine is being used and it is a latop, then chances are the user undocked; if the machine is not being used, then maybe the user undocked, but that's not a safe assumption; if the machine isn't a laptop, then chances are it's a problem - the user may have deliberately unplugged the network, but that in itself likely signals an unusual, so having to dismiss a persistent dialog won't be too unwelcome. And I don't know if the data exists to allow intelligent heuristics. All of the ephemeral-but-may-signal-a-problem will have to be use-cased (hmm, Calvin was right, verbing weirds language) to determine appropriate defaults and appropriate heuristics. What do we do if we get any of these wrong, as we surely will? We discuss. We figure out default policies for all three cases, apply them as best we can, likely succeeding more than we fail thanks to the 80/20 rule, and we debate the rest as a community and come to consensus. Like we most often do. Having said that, all system notifications start off with a default system policy that can be changed by an admin (but not by a user). Quick comments re a few other points. I am adamantly opposed to popups in the user space, as should be obvious from earlier comments - unrequested popups are simply unwelcome and
