Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Making Canonical's/Ubuntu's contributions more visible
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 4:36 AM, Przemysław Kulczycki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now let's get to the point. One of the often accusations against Ubuntu is that it only takes from other projects (Debian, Red Hat, Novell/Suse...) and doesn't give back anything. Ubuntu should make it more visible for others to see what does it contribute to upstream/floss community. Good. I hope something will be done about it ASAP. Reading all those comments about Ubuntu not contributing anything is really irritating. Let's start a wiki page at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/Content/UbuntuContributions As the content on this page matures I'll sync it over to the main ubuntu website. -- Matthew Nuzum newz2000 on freenode -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Incomplete with no response 30 days
HggdH wrote: We also discussed what the solution should be. ScottK is going to mail the ubuntu-devel-discuss with the proposal that we came up with. If that is accepted then the changes will be announced here. I am not quite sure I understand. So the proposal will be discussed by developers without input from triagers? Frankly, I do not agree. Since I think this will start another heavy discussion, I am also copying ubuntu-devel-discuss here. But, certainly, alienating bug-squad is not right. ..hggdh.. Whoever said that the bug triagers could not contribute to -devel-discuss? For that matter, whoever said that they do not do so already? But, again, i'd point out what Reinhart has eloquently said: I'm sorry, but I may have misunderstood something. I thought the point of the bugsquad team was to make the live of developers easier and not more complicated. Clearly these bugs cause misunderstanding on the bugsquad team. I therefore thing these type of bugs need to be discussed with the developers who have to work with them (which basically means all developers). Since you cannot expect all developers to read this mailing list, I'd suggest starting that discussion on ubuntu-devel. There seems to be an attitude of screw the developers, we are the mighty bug squad, and can do what we like here. But really, isn't the job of the bug squad to get bugs into a good state of triage, so they can be dealt with by the developers? Does it not make sense, therefore, to listen to what the developers want the bug squad to do to the bugs, in a general sense, and then for the bug squad to go away and deal with the specifics? I don't think the bug squad should have the right to say we will make the rules, everyone else must follow them, as, while there are many bug squad people (yes, developers are still bug squad too), the bug squad does not put real bugs (ie, not invalid, etc) in a final state, so someone always has to come after them, and touch the bugs afterwards. This is not the case for developers. For those who are interested in getting the bugs into a final, finished state, in the bug squad, you may want to look at becoming developers yourselves. Just my AUD $0.02, from another fellow member of the bug squad and developer Hobbsee signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Incomplete with no response 30 days
Le dimanche 25 mai 2008 à 18:33 +1000, Sarah Hobbs a écrit : snip There seems to be an attitude of screw the developers, we are the mighty bug squad, and can do what we like here. The contrary can be true as well, but that's absolutely not the point here. ;-) But really, isn't the job of the bug squad to get bugs into a good state of triage, so they can be dealt with by the developers? Does it not make sense, therefore, to listen to what the developers want the bug squad to do to the bugs, in a general sense, and then for the bug squad to go away and deal with the specifics? I don't think the bug squad should have the right to say we will make the rules, everyone else must follow them, as, while there are many bug squad people (yes, developers are still bug squad too), the bug squad does not put real bugs (ie, not invalid, etc) in a final state, so someone always has to come after them, and touch the bugs afterwards. This is not the case for developers. I don't see the need here to oppose bug triager and developers here - yes, developers are members of the bug squad too, and the only aim of all these groups is to make Ubuntu work right. For this we need rule the best cooperation between all classes of contributors. And bug triagers are a really diverse group, from which you cannot expect to master every Ubuntu trick. The bug squad is not here to serve developers, but precisely to get needed information so that bugs are made useful to them. Developers also should make the life of bug triagers easier since their own work depends on the bug squad efficiency. As Henrik Nilsen Omma summed it up [1], there's just a need to find better conventions in order to make special bugs (sync requests...) conform to the general convention. No need to hurt anyone here: developers could simply use Confirmed instead of Incomplete when waiting for more information that *they will get by themselves*, and not from any user; Triaged and In progress are still here for more advanced states. And surely assigning bugs when somebody is taking care of a bug, even if no work is going on would help, since other developers that may want to work on the bug will know what kind of special tricks are involved. Hope we can find a common rule 1: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-bugsquad/2008-May/000854.html -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Should default keyboard be based on location?
Am 24.05.2008 um 22:20 schrieb Evan: While living in Germany might point towards the use of a german- layout keyboard, any decision really depends on what percent of German users actually use german-layout keyboards. Calculate with some 99%. Every PC offered comes with a german keyboard by default and only few vendors allow to change to an english layout. This holds true for even smaller markets like german- speaking switzerland. However, it is my guess that the standard US-English layout is common enough that it makes sense to leave this as-is. The reason, germans don't scream is, characters are almost the same on the german vs. the english keyboard. Punctuation ()§$ is totally different, though and then, there are umlauts ... many people can't type their name on a english layout correctly. Hope that helps, Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Incomplete with no response 30 days
On Sun, 2008-05-25 at 18:33 +1000, Sarah Hobbs wrote: Whoever said that the bug triagers could not contribute to -devel-discuss? For that matter, whoever said that they do not do so already? You got me. I do not know who said that. I know, though, that I am trying to keep triagers in the discussion. There seems to be an attitude of screw the developers, we are the mighty bug squad, and can do what we like here. Sarah, please do not put in my mouth what I did *not* say. I do not know what other problems you have been having, but I am sure I *never* said such a stupidity. Let me re-state what I said: I am not quite sure I understand. So the proposal will be discussed by developers without input from triagers? But really, isn't the job of the bug squad to get bugs into a good state of triage, so they can be dealt with by the developers? Indeed. This is what we all want. Does it not make sense, therefore, to listen to what the developers want the bug squad to do to the bugs, in a general sense, and then for the bug squad to go away and deal with the specifics? No. It does not. It does make sense for *BOTH* developers and bug-squadders to discuss and reach a consensus. We do not impose on YOU how to develop, you should not impose on us how to triage. But we can reach a consensus. And the triagers will not go away, no matter how much you would like them to. I don't think the bug squad should have the right to say we will make the rules, everyone else must follow them, as, while there are many bug squad people (yes, developers are still bug squad too), the bug squad does not put real bugs (ie, not invalid, etc) in a final state, so someone always has to come after them, and touch the bugs afterwards. This is not the case for developers. Again, I never said that -- YOU say it. What I said is I see no sense on having a discussion on how to triage done exclusively in the devel-discuss, and then presenting the triagers on what has been decided. There is a mailing list devoted to triaging. I see no problem in having the discussion in devel-discuss *and* on bugsquad (even if this means duplication): all affected areas will be able to immediately participate. But I still fail to understand why the discussion would be restricted to devel-discuss, a forum for developers, not for triagers. For those who are interested in getting the bugs into a final, finished state, in the bug squad, you may want to look at becoming developers yourselves. OK. So now I find that it is not the mighty triagers, but the mighty developers? Just my AUD $0.02, from another fellow member of the bug squad and developer Ditto here, from someone who has done both development and triaging/support for some quite long years. I am not as ignorant as you may think. It is a pity that this discussion escalated so fast to the makings of a flame war. ..hggdh.. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Incomplete with no response 30 days
HggdH wrote: No. It does not. It does make sense for *BOTH* developers and bug-squadders to discuss and reach a consensus. We do not impose on YOU how to develop, you should not impose on us how to triage. Telling you how to triage? No. Finding a way of saying you do not need to waste your time on these bugs, because these have special procedures and different definitions of things, and feel free to focus on other bugs - I guess you could interpret that as telling you how to triage, at a stretch. On the other hand, isn't it better for you guys that way, so you end up with a higher final count of bugs that are looked at in a given time period? Doesn't that make the bug squad more effective? It is a pity that this discussion escalated so fast to the makings of a flame war. I would hope that could be avoided. As a general note, I was not putting words into your mouth - I was commenting more on what some of the general perceptions seem to be, from within the bug squad. Unfortunately, the last 'consensus' I saw was a wiki revert (which, I now see has been added back, with a great section of 'draft' around it), and when attempting to discuss the ways forward with some high members of the bug squad, some MOTUs effectively got responses of we don't approve of using the bug tracker for workflow bugs, as they're not real bugs, so you guys have to figure out a way of making it work the way you guys want it to, without us changing, because there are more triagers than developers, so it's more feasible for you guys to change your workflow than us. I would hope that a mailing list is more effective than the irc-based discussions were. It being on both mailing lists, so both groups of people see it, should help with that. Needless to say, I'll hearby assume that the above comments some of the developers got from the bug squad are *not* the norm - and from these mails, it would appear that there is a reasonable chance of mediation, rather than the earlier vibes coming from certain members of the bug squad team. Hobbsee signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Should default keyboard be based on location?
Yannick Gingras wrote: Hi, I just installed Kubuntu Hardy. I selected my location, Montreal, and only a few clicks later I had to pick a keyboard which defaulted to US. Since it knows where I live at this point, shouldn't the installer default to Canadian layout? Hmmm, well, I'm Canadian, but I have and have always had a US English keyboard. I think in this specific case, the Canadian layout may only be relevant for Quebec (i.e. English/French keyboards). I may be wrong, but I've never used anything but a US English keyboard in Toronto. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Should default keyboard be based on location?
Blaise Alleyne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm, well, I'm Canadian, but I have and have always had a US English keyboard. I think in this specific case, the Canadian layout may only be relevant for Quebec (i.e. English/French keyboards). I may be wrong, but I've never used anything but a US English keyboard in Toronto. That is indeed a more of a problem in Québec since it's impossible to type French with the US layout. Many keyboards are sold with the US layout printed on but people configure their computer to use the Canadian layout (aka Qc, not the same as Canadian-multilingual). I'm typing this on a keyboard with the US layout printed on that I configured as Canadian. As Markus pointed out, most people can't write their name with the US layout. -- Yannick Gingras -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
