Exfat partitions created in Linux cannot be read on Windows (7+) or Mac OS X
I'm trying to figure out where to look to see if this is a known bug in mkfs.exfat, and where to report it, if not. The Linux Questions thread, below, has all the relevant details. Does anyone on this list know where I should go to report any relevant bug to the maintainer of this software? I'm not subscribed to the list, so please remember to CC me in any replies. Thanks! http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?p=5518494 --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre mathieu...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com wrote: [...] So, now that we've gotten some matters of conduct out of the way (we have, haven't we?), does anyone care to suggest what to do about making the GUI(s) of Ubuntu more usable for those who aren't OK with the current offerings? Have you considered trying the other window manager that are available for installation? Between Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu which each install their own different window manager by default; and being able to install GNOME Shell (gnome-shell) to replace Unity (or gnome-session-fallback for a GNOME2-like look), there's a fair amount of choice. No matter which option you'll choose, there is bound to be some amount of change in the look and feel, since even GNOME is moving away from what you're used to seeing in 10.04 with the two panels. That will mean some amount of relearning, with a varying transition period depending on your choice. As far as I can tell, from an LTS to LTS upgrade perspective it's all a matter of choosing whether you want to spend increasing amounts of time figuring out how to get the same look you were used to, or spending a (relatively) finite amount of time relearning interface to familiarize yourself with new window manager of choice. That's true for all other distros at this point in time, the difference is that Ubuntu has chosen to go with Unity as the default window manager for Ubuntu Desktop installs (as opposed to Kubuntu or others). There's somewhat more to it than that. The major issue (among many other issues) is that the new GUIs don't do the things that used to be available on the old one (Gnome 2). Example: I can't add a good system monitor to Gnome 3 because the old gnome-system-monitor applet (being an applet at all, apparently) is incompatible with Gnome 3. There are Gnome Shell implementations that are buggy and incomplete, of course, but I see no good reason to use a buggy and incomplete anything if a fully-functional version has been available for years. Of course, that's just a minor example, and won't be relevant for everyone; but the overall principle is important: what used to work no longer works. This goes beyond simply learning to click the new places; it's a matter of missing functionality and bugs. Scott, you said that Canonical is railroading Ubuntu to use Unity. Is this 100% certain? Also, is it 100% certain that Unity *must* continue in the direction it's currently moving in? It seems to have been optimized for netbooks, and as such, lacks much of what desktop (and large laptop) users find essential and/or appropriate. Do you know if there will be a desktop-centric version in the foreseeable future? Has there been any discussion of it? Finally, would a petition with, say, 100,000 signatures (or whatever large number seems appropriate), delivered to Mark Shuttleworth, be enough to get some say in this? Thanks for your input, everybody. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
That said, if you can find specific things you are having problems with and make specific suggestions about how to solve the problems that are generally their direction, you've got a chance of being heard. Go back to what it was has no chance at all.https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss Scott, I appreciate your directness and honesty. For me, I think I'll move away from Ubuntu entirely until things get sorted out. I hope it won't be terribly long, though I note that it took several years to get the already-existing Gnome 2 fully usable. Maybe this will be different. In truth, if they can make Unity as good as Gnome 2 was (or better), and not terribly inconvenient or time-consuming to learn, I won't really care that it's not what I used to use. I'm just extremely frustrated with not having functionality that I've previously relied upon. (Dale, I sympathize with you strongly on this, as do many others.) If anyone can recommend a good, full-featured distribution that fills the same basic niche as Ubuntu, for use in the meantime, I'd be happy to hear your suggestions (as might others). (I might go with an RPM distro, since my Canon printer seems to hate DEB systems.) If I might recommend one final thing...can the essence of this discussion be somehow posted in an easy-to-find place on Ubuntu's various web pages and forums? It would be helpful to have an official notice that this is how it is, and it's not going back to how it was. It would save a lot of people (like me) a lot of trouble in trying to present ideas about what's unsatisfactory and needs changing, seeing as the direction of development apparently finds such input (concerning the GUI) unimportant at this time. As a policy, I find this quite unfortunate, but if that's just how it is, a simple warning would be nice. Thanks. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
What we had was a rant followed by another rant followed by... I do not know, I stopped in the middle of the second rant. ScootK was very right when referring to the delete option. ... But if I do not like something, and I want to _help_ change it, I need to put out a very clear statement of what I think is wrong *AND* why I think it is wrong. C., Judging by your statements, above, it's quite clear that you haven't read most of this thread, and thereby have no real idea as to what the tenor of (most of) this discussion has been. It's therefore counterproductive for you to make disparaging claims about the conduct of others, whose conduct you apparently haven't actually taken any notice of. Please read the previous posts before assuming you have anything worthwhile to say about them. Everyone else, I'm aware that this is the -discuss list, and in point of fact, I subscribed (and occasionally participated on) the -devel list for years until a faction of the developers decided (with some good reason) that they didn't want non-developers on that list, and restricted all emails from those without special permission. Even then, I occasionally made suggestions and (what I thought were) intelligent comments, only to be faced with a process of waiting for my every email to be moderated, then being summarily told that my input wasn't important to anyone there (in many cases). So, while, yes, this isn't the list that most devs give a hoot about, and, in fact, seem to regard more as dev-null than dev-discuss, there simply isn't a better place to voice such concerns, and I'm pretty sure that it's by design. (To be fair, some people had been obnoxious on the old -devel list, so some of this behavior is understandable, if not justified.) As for the title of the thread, and whether this discussion should, instead, be with canonical: I asked both of those things, already (re-read my emails if you don't believe me), and got either no response, or (implicit) confirmation that this was as good a place as any. If you had something to say back then, why didn't you say it? Scott's replies were informative, and I thought I responded sensibly to them; did I misunderstand? (Those whose previous comments fit into the description of behaviors in this message are encouraged to keep their mouths shut, for once.) I'm sorry that this email has a much more angry tone than usual (for me, anyway), but asinine double-speak and baseless accusations (see the first paragraph) really bother me, and I know it's not just a personal quirk that they do; one would be hard-pressed to find anyone who isn't at least a little bothered by such behavior. For what it's worth, I came into this discussion hoping to outline specific problems in the GUI design process and come to useful conclusions about how to fix it. It would seem that, while many of the people here are, indeed, worth talking to, there are enough who are certainly not, that such an effort is basically wasted. I'm sorry that this list is insufficiently tolerant/intelligent/wise to value what would, in other circles, be worthwhile conversation. Regretfully, --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
Part of the problem you're having in this discussion is that Ubuntu developers don't develop Unity. It's a separate project within Canonical that operates much like any upstream does. The distribution developers have some influence and do, in some cases, contribute to it, but it's not primarily their work. If you're trying to reach the driving minds behind Unity, this isn't the right place. There is a mailing list, called unity-design or some similar title that might be better. Scott K That's very good to know; thanks, Scott. It's also heartening to hear that it's not the Ubuntu devs (for whom I generally have a lot of respect) who are pushing this madness forward, but people who are working directly for Canonical--rather than simply being directed by canonical. I apologize to any developers toward whom I've been unjustly been harsh. My previous criticisms of certain denizens of this list stand, but at least now it's clear that most of the Unity culprits are elsewhere. Thanks for the clarification. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
On the contrary, I found Michael's rant refreshing. Politically correct rants look like a lot of nitpicking over nothing. ... But of course a little We shouldn't do this, it's a bad idea just gets an enthusiastic push-back from strong-headed visionaries that think they're onto something. When the criticism starts coming in force and with sharp language, a threat to ration and reason is made--in other words: humans fear losing arguments in the same way they fear being punched in the face, and strong and vicious protest is threatening in that it makes being wrong particularly high impact. If the whole world is iffy but unenthused, they will swallow your crap and then complain--unenthusiastically--that it's not great. If you are being flamed and shouted at, then when the whole world doesn't turn around and realize how excellent your new ideas are--perhaps because they're not--you take a MAJOR social hit and suddenly nobody likes you, and as a bonus they also get it in their heads that anything you touch is a born disaster and probably will never come near you again. In other words, maybe you'll listen when people actually say what they mean instead of sucking all the emotional meaning out and presenting simple facts--facts which you may dispute with other simple facts. Facts are facts, whether they're true or false. Information is more than just facts: the emotional weight carries, and the presentation makes that. Do you honestly think Unity would have ever happened if Shuttleworth got called a pinhead whenever someone commented on the design proposal and subsequent betas? It would have been quickly abandoned as every single developer associated with the project ran for cover from the raining fire and brimstone. John, I can see that you make a good point; bad UI decisions would have been less likely to happen if at first they were savagely railed against, thereby causing the potential developers of those bad ideas to go elsewhere. The problem, as I see it, is that once the decisions have already had time and effort invested in them, it becomes a problem of, is all that work I did stupid/irrelevant? This, in addition to pressing the I can't be wrong! button, also presses the if I'm wrong, my work isn't valuable, so I'm not valuable button. This is, as I see it, the other side of the psychological coin that you aptly outlined above. Therefore, when a part of a person's sense of self worth is threatened by way of intense criticism, the normal response is to dig in and fight vehemently to protect the perceived value of one's work. Thus, no matter how bad an idea or system is, those who made it will be all the more stubborn if they feel like they can't concede gracefully. (Incidentally, this is similar to how [useless] bureaucracies become self-preserving.) So, while I'm, in fact, all *for *speaking bluntly, I also see the quandary that speaking too bluntly produces when being wrong (for the owners of a work) would mean that the months they spent on a particular project would all be for nothing, should they admit that they were actually wrong. As a side note, mentioning these psychological/social dynamics may well push the conversation further in that direction, but it would seem that it needs to be said (and under other circumstances, I wouldn't hesitate to aggravate everyone by saying them). Nobody likes to admit that their thought processes are irrational and/or emotional, since it means that on some level, they're being stupid by letting other things control any intelligence they might otherwise possess. This dynamic (all of the above, including what you've written) seems to have run rampant in the development of GUIs for the last year or so...but I hadn't exactly intended to expose this directly until you began doing so. (Now the beans are spilled...) Plus it's fun to read people speaking frankly, though if you spoke like a Franc I guess you'd have to use a lot more accents and apostrophes. Well said. ;-) --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: How to install Precise without getting screwed?
order. So, while the underlying technology got better, the useful, basic features that we all expect to just work (as they do in Windows and Mac OS X, which are the main competition to Ubuntu and Linux) have *repeatedly* gone by the wayside because it's somehow more appealing to re-write things than to polish them. I encourage those who still don't believe me to look for other examples, themselves, rather than fixating upon the ones I've given; productive conversation would suffer from arguments over inane details like these. Since the release of Warty Warthog in the early 2000s, the Ubuntu developers turned the quirky-and-barely-functional Gnome desktop into a darned good system for getting things done. With a couple years more polish, it could have been truly competitive with GUIs by Apple and Microsoft. But as soon as it had really come into its own--and before it became really good--folks decided to completely redesign a working system, producing the magnets-for-complaints we call Gnome 3 and Unity. (When you get rid of something that works, in favor of anything at all that's different, you WILL have complaints--some for good reason.) I don't at all doubt that those systems will one day be at least a little better than Gnome 2 ever was, but since in the meantime we have nothing but half-baked new systems and gutted old systems (i.e. Gnome classic and its oddly-more-faithful fork, MATE), the state of the Linux GUI has brought adoption back to a matter of just how much time a competent computer user wants to waste on learning something new, rather than sticking with a system that already works for him. For a lot of people, the question isn't even reasonable. Until this trend of fixing things that aren't broken (from the end user's perspective) by inventing shiny-yet-incomplete things, Linux will truly never garner a solid place in the desktop market. So, here's the thrust of my dissertation: Please, developers, stick with something that works until it's become something truly great; then when public demand requires it (or your foresee that requirement) make something new and better--but under no circumstances take away what we already use and love!! It feels like a betrayal of the user base (those who don't like the new system, at least--and you know there are plenty, if you read these mailing lists), and it puts users in the very awkward and problematic position of deciding to limp along with a broken system or just revert to a commercial offering. I personally have a somewhat fanatical love for Linux, but for me, anyway, no amount of fanaticism can compete with a gross lack of usability (for my purposes, of course). I beg you, the developers of this otherwise great OS and superior Linux distribution, to consider the awkward place you've put your (existing/potential) user base in, and allow us to install and use the FULLY-FUNCTIONAL version of what's previously worked for those of us who don't want the new system just yet. I know that I've been wordy and dissertated at length, so if you've read all the above, you have my sincere gratitude. Thanks. --Dane Mutters -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: can we find a solution to bug #820895 (show Process Name in log files) (imaginative solution/description presented)?
Stop throwing around privacy like there is some big security flaw in Linux, there are tools that do what everyone wants, it seems to me that nobody is willing to even look or everybody is fed baby food, what is the point of being on Linux if you aren't going to use the terminal for what it's there for? Try searching for once. As someone whose spent a lot of time on distros like Slackware and Gentoo, as well as having used Ubuntu since Warty Warthog, I have a good bit of experience with the command line, including tools like Shorewall, plus writing some basic IPTables scripts; but I still would love to have a decent, comprehensive (within reason) GUI tool to deal with these issues. It's simply impractical to dig through my system's log files (by hand) every time I want to figure out what program is using my Internet connection without my permission. Yes, I can and do use the command line (including some minor BASH scripting); but sometimes the point of a good GUI tool isn't *exclusively* to allow *newbies* access to something, but also to provide seasoned users an *easier and more efficient way* of doing what they can already accomplish, given enough time and effort. Tools like Firestarter have, in my experience, proven rather hacky and inadequate. Furthermore, it's not always clear what ports need to be blocked, based on log files, alone; some programs use a large range of more-or-less random ports, and one may or may not want them to be able to do so; but documentation on such things isn't always as good as it aught to be, and Google (contrary to popular belief) doesn't actually know * everything*. AppArmor seems like a good start, but it's far from accessible to most users--unless they want to spend a lot of time figuring it out, which might not be practical in a given use case. The same goes for SELinux--perhaps doubly so. They're good systems, in principle, but not something that even a Linux power user can fiddle with and reliably avoid breaking (nearly) everything on his computer, unless he's spent far too much time studying how they work. A well-thought-out GUI tool, programmed by those who actually *do*understand these things will allow the otherwise perplexing and complex tasks required to enable/disable basic functionalities to be accomplished by checking a box, typing in an executable name, etc. I know that this sort of thing rubs the command-line enthusiast crowd the wrong way--I was up-in-arms when MS Windows ceased to be strictly a DOS-based application! (I even wrote a slam poem about it...)--but there's definitely something good to be said about making simple functionality into *simple* processes; and GUIs are typically very good at this. Let's just make sure that those who understand the CLI way of doing these things don't have to jump through hoops to do it (as has happened with MS Windows, Suse Linux, etc.), while allowing those who don't understand it to get the basics done, anyway. Thanks for reading. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ugly GRUB menu entries
Also, on my system (as well as many others), I end up with 2 lines for
Windows 7 (or Vista, when I was using that)--only one of which boots. One
is the system partition; one is the main partition. Fixing this by hand
wouldn't be such a big deal if one didn't have to write part of a shell
script to do it, though manually editing a config file isn't exactly
user-friendly in any case. I'm sure everybody from the GRUB team has
seen this before, but I wonder if this could be incorporated as a graphical
selection option--perhaps show the user a preview of the menu, then allow
them to say there are two entries; remove this one... Also, a check box
to remove (loader) might be nice.
from /etc/grub.d/30_os-prober
# Added to remove (loader) from Windows 7 entry
if [ $LONGNAME = Windows 7 (loader) ] [ ${DEVICE} = /dev/sdb1 ]
then LONGNAME=Windows 7
fi
# Added to remove duplicate Windows 7 entry
if [ ${DEVICE} = /dev/sdb2 ]; then
continue
fi
These lines remove (loader), as well as the duplicate entry.
Obviously, /dev/sdb1 won't be the correct device for all users, but I'm
thinking that if the GRUB menu noted which partition each Windows entry
went to, and kept a log in the Linux partition of which was last used, then
the user could be shown which one he/she used last, and choose which one to
remove, based on that.
Since this fix is well beyond the ability of a casual user (and required
me--who knows a fair bit of BASH--some time and Googling to figure
out--especially since it's not obvious where to put this stuff), it would
be really nice to make these lines into check box options after showing
the user a preview of the menu. Since the user likely won't know which
entry is the correct one until he/she tries to boot it, it would be best to
show this after a reboot (when the installation is done), and allow the
user to choose show this dialog at next boot, or don't show this dialog
at next boot--with the option to access the menu elsewhere if he/she
chooses the latter. This way, the user can deal with the problem as
he/she's ready to do so, without (1) being unable to find where to fix this
after the first boot; and (2) being annoyed that the dialog pops up at
every boot, after the user has decided to do nothing at all about it.
I'm no programmer, and have never written a blueprint or similar before
(and am wary about being told-off for doing it badly), so if anybody feels
up to formatting this in a pleasing way and posting it wherever such is
appropriate, I would be very grateful. :-) I think that this (if
implemented) would remove some of the ire I've noticed on the 'net about
the difficult-to-configure nature of GRUB2--at least where Windows Vista/7
entries are concerned. (Please note that it's not my intention to bash on
GRUB2; I just notice that some things are pretty confusing to those of us
who don't know its intricacies.)
Anyway, I hope this email proves useful to somebody. Have a nice day.
--Dane
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Re: Thinking about adding a Twitter stream to the Ubuntu install slideshow
I share this concern; our sysadmins had some visualisations of 11.10 installs hitting the Ubuntu geoip service around release time, and although I forget the numbers the spike was pretty huge. Given our scale, I'd say that the neighbourly thing to do is for Ubuntu installs to only touch Ubuntu network resources. However, that isn't to say that an Ubuntu service couldn't deal with fetching a set of per-language feeds of interesting content from somewhere else, and then multiplex those out to clients installing Ubuntu (which would also allow filtering, swapping in some entirely different feed later, etc.). Perhaps talk with the Canonical sysadmins about the practicalities of What if we were to have this feed on Twitter, but instead of pulling content directly from Twitter to the installer, copy it to an Ubuntu server first, and pull it from the Ubuntu server to the installer? This would eliminate the (potential) problem of being un-neighborly) to Twitter, without sacrificing the desired functionality, or the exposure of having this stream on such a popular site (for those who wish to see it via a web browser or similar). This would also allow Ubuntu to post this feed to just one place (Twitter), and have it propagate wherever it's needed without bombarding Twitter with installer traffic. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Post-natty changes to unity [Was: Re: Ubuntu Gnome 3.4]
Though I think Unity still needs a -lot- of work, I find it much more usable in Oneiric than it was in Natty. I used it for several months before switching to Gnome 3 in Oneiric, whereas I couldn't stand it for a day in Natty. (Keep up the good work.) I can't speak to whether there have been regressions, but I can speak to a marked improvement in overall usability. --Dane On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Bruno Girin brunogi...@gmail.com wrote: On 06/01/12 15:58, Evan Huus wrote: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 10:41 AM, James Haighjames.r.ha...@gmail.com wrote: I was a keen Unity fan when Natty came out. However, since Oneiric, Unity is the main reason why I'm still using Natty. I find that very interesting. My personal opinion (and the general majority opinion, as far as I can tell) is that the Oneiric changes to unity were clear improvements. I second that: I installed Oneiric beta on my new laptop rather than Natty because Unity in Natty was flaky with my hardware. Bruno -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.**ubuntu.comUbuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/** mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-**discusshttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Firefox Unbuntu 11.10 64 bit
Gerry, I don't think this is the best place to post this question; the Ubuntu forums would be more appropriate. That said, it's almost certainly a plugin or extension that's going awry. Start Firefox and don't go to any pages that make it crash. Then, go to Tools Addons and disable every extension and plugin, except for the Flash one. If it doesn't crash, then you definitely have a problem with one of the other add-ons. Enable one at a time, restarting Firefox when it says you need to, and go back to a flash page. Be sure to set your startup page to something without Flash content. (Go to Edit Preferences General Tab and select the appropriate options.) Keep enabling one add-on at a time until something makes it freeze. When that happens, then the last one you enabled is the problem. Disable it again and keep enabling stuff one-at-a time, to make sure there's not more than one problematic add-on. You can contact me directly at dmutt...@gmail.com if you still have problems. (It's probably best to keep tech assistance questions off of the development lists.) Good luck! --Dane P.S. When you get it working, it would be good to post your solution to the Mint or Ubuntu forums, with [SOLVED] in the title. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:53 AM, gerry gerry.ne...@gmx.co.uk wrote: Can anyone let me know what is happening. Each time I start Firefox in Ubuntu 11.10 it will at some point freeze. I can recreate the problem easily by trying to run a flash video from You Tube or any embedded video. My version of Firefox is the latest from the updates. Now chrome is giving me the same problem :-( Looks like Flash is the culprit but no one seems to know the answer By the way Mint 11 32bit is fine Any pointers would be useful -- Regards Gerry -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/
FWIW, grub.cfg is deliberately in /boot, rather than putting an autogenerated file in /etc. (/boot/grub/menu.lst had its own problems, as a partly-autogenerated and partly-manually-maintained file - a scheme that might almost have been designed to create bugs.) Colin, I'd forgotten that the autogenerated GRUB 2 grub.cfg is in /boot, not /etc; I agree that this is less frustrating than if it had been in /etc. Quite frankly: there has been no discussion among Ubuntu developers about doing anything of the kind, and I seriously doubt that it would ever make it onto our to-do list which has more than enough on it already without making work for ourselves. The suggestion on this list of moving binaries to /usr/bin hasn't been made by Ubuntu developers. If it ever came up as a serious prospective Ubuntu development project, I would argue strongly against it on the grounds that the gains, if any, would be negligible compared to the work involved and the bugs that would be likely to be created. Simplifications here belong at higher levels. For example, the suggestion made somewhere in this thread that there's no good reason for Firefox to require the full path to an executable to open a resource seems like an excellent one. It should rarely be necessary to care about the full path to an executable at all, never mind attempting to consolidate them all into one directory. I admit that I'm quite glad to hear all this. :-) I, for one, would welcome Firefox and all others (where feasible) not requiring full paths to executables. I wonder if this is a Windows compatibility thing that isn't fully Linux-ized? I'm sure the bug that Chris kindly pointed-out has the full scoop. I can see how this issue would be better handled on a per-application basis, than on a distribution-wide one. Thanks for your comments. Cheers! --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/
I accidentally hit reply instead of reply-to-all. My message is below the
quote.
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Dane Mutters dmutt...@gmail.com wrote:
If you really care about end users and you think this is something that
need fixing, then the proper way to do it is to:
1. create a fake /usr/bin/ where all binaries are available without
breaking anything else. (this could be done by having a virtual filesystem
of some sort that automatically finds things for you, think autofs /etc/
auto.net
. So if you say: which bash it shows as /bin/bash if it hasn't been used
from /usr/bin/bash. and which bash will be /bin/bash and /usr/bin/bash if
somebody or some command called /usr/bin/bash as it would mount this for
you there). This would mean that all packages that install things to
/usr/bin would need to be installed elsewhere... which is really bad
2. write GUI tools that find binaries properly, think gnome-open but for
binaries. I guess similar to command-not-found in Ubuntu
3. hide the whole filesystem from end-users GUI programs (MacOS X does
this beautifully, if you open a terminal you can cd / and it takes you to
some /private hidden directory)
If it was me, I would do this actually:
1. hide all from users
2. install all packages to /opt/app/version/{bin,share,
lib}
3. symlink stuff from /opt/app/version/bin/* to /usr/bin/ if not already
there
And write a really good update-alternatives to manage /usr/bin/* symlinks
I'm glad you mentioned this, Luis. I know you weren't exactly advocating
such changes, but I think the implications of this bear discussing.
Another issue to mention, that I dearly hope has some positive hold in
minds of the Ubuntu community, already, is the hell of actually editing
configurations, hand-linking files, installing 3rd-party/manually-compiled
apps, etc. when you have a system that makes you deal with a shells game
of where things actually are. I, personally, HATE that. It's exactly why
I decided (years ago) that, despite the usefulness of YAST, and the
easiness of the GUI, I couldn't tolerate using Suse in the least. Whenever
I wanted to edit a configuration file by hand, I found that it was being
created by several other files--that themselves were created by some binary
GUI tool that I couldn't see into the guts of.
Making a semi-knowledgeable power user of Linux/Unix (such as I consider
myself to be) sort out a spaghetti of links and virtual filesystem junk
just to figure out where some file is, or where it's safe to make install
something into would be entirely unreasonable. One of the things I like
about most Linux distros is that you can look at the filesystem directly
and tweak things to your liking, so long as you've read some basic
documentation on what you intend to change. Yes, Mac OS X does a great job
of obscuring the filesystem hierarchy from typical users (which makes it
easier for the really computer-illiterate ones), but it's a pain to
actually get into the guts of. Heaven forbid you have to use a command
line to fix something...
I've seen a bit of this obscuring mentality creep into modern Linux
(including Ubuntu), in the form of auto-generated /etc/ stuff--which isn't
necessarily a bad thing, except when you can't easily change what's getting
generated (GRUB 2, anyone? I don't want to learn another dialect of a
scripting language to remove a single word from my boot-up screen...)--and
I truly cringe at the thought of dealing with this on a system-wide scale,
instead of just in a few spots in /etc/ and similar.
Yes, by dumping everything into /usr/bin, you might make binaries easier
to find for basically Linux-illiterate users who probably wouldn't know
what to do with the binaries once they found them. You would, however,
make things very difficult for any sysadmin, power-user, or person trying
to learn Linux's guts, as well as anybody else (who didn't design the
system or spend days/weeks reading about it...) who might actually have a
good reason to be mucking around in those areas (i.e. not be on his way to
screwing it all up through ignorance or recklessness)--that is, if things
are linked or otherwise obscured. Dumping all binaries into one place
poses its own problems, as are being discussed already; so I'll forbear
repeating what's already been said.
So, if the Ubuntu developers really do want to simplify the filesystem
structure, please do it TRANSPARENTLY, so that those people who really want
to see the insides of their installation can do so sensibly, without having
to sort out where things ACTUALLY are, independent of where they LOOK like
they are. I honestly don't know whether putting everything into /usr/bin
is a good idea (that's something for those more knowledgeable than myself
to work out--though I'm inclined to be against it). I just hope that
whatever is decided upon won't make my life tougher by obscuring,
autogenerating
Re: Ubuntu should move all binaries to /usr/bin/
I don't know if the original poster has since learned this, but I think it's worth noting several things, in case the person coming over from Windows hasn't figured it out. (If this is a non-issue, please disregard this email.) 1) Linux/Unix executables don't have a .exe extension. Typically, they don't have any extension at all, and can conceivably have every extension imaginable (including common ones like .sh for scripts). If you're looking for an executable, forget looking for its extension. Try using the find command to look for executable files, or if you know the one you want, already, use the which command, as above. 2) You almost certainly don't need to find that file. As mentioned above, if it's not in your PATH setting, then something is broken. This is pretty rare. If you need to execute a command--from a terminal or from an open with dialogue, just type the command (in the appropriate dialogue box, as needed). If you want to open a PDF, and the GUI hasn't figured out how to do that, type acroread, evince, or whatever you have installed into the box. 3) rant +1 about Windows having an absurdly hard-to-use filesystem, where finding binaries/executables is concerned. Once you learn Linux, you'll bless its build-in filesystem, and probably find little/no need to mess with it. For that matter, +1 to all the stuff about /bin, /sbin, /usr/local/bin, /usr/local/sbin, /opt, etc. having useful, specific purposes. Sure, it bugs me when some program insists on installing someplace I don't think makes sense. Usually it'll let me change it upon install, if it's from a script, but if not, I can still put it into the PATH if it's not already there, and after that it doesn't matter! So long as the uninstall functionality works for a given program (which it REALLY, REALLY should...), and the executable structure of the program is remotely sensible (looking at you, OpenOffice, Mozilla, etc.), it's all gravy, so far as I'm concerned. Proprietary programs are the more problematic culprits, anyway, and there's not much a distribution can do about them, so far as I'm aware. /rant 4) I've never liked Fedora, anyway. :-p I'm sure the real gurus here know a lot more about the specifics than I do, so have at it! --Dane On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 3:16 AM, Colin Watson cjwat...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 02:40:31AM +0800, John McCabe-Dansted wrote: We could even enhance which to look in obvious places off the path (perhaps locatedb?) and print the output on stderr if we really wanted to. Please don't - 'which' is used in scripts and needs to preserve its current behaviour. Any extra behaviour should be added to a different/new program. -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@ubuntu.com] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: User education on first boot post install
This seems to be a really good idea. I'm not a programmer, but if somebody implements it, it'll make a lot of users happy. On Wed, 2010-06-23 at 12:21 +0200, Gareth McCumskey wrote: Hi there guys, This is my first mail to this list so forgive me if this has already been asked or discussed. I was wondering if there was anything in the works that would provide a first time user of Ubuntu some kind of guided tour style and/or information resource, that can be cancelled of course if not needed, but would provide someone with no experience of Ubuntu some basic information on the key differences of Ubuntu vs other OS's (specifically Windows). Differences such as not needing to go to websites to download and install software but rather use a repository, what currently installed applications can do specific jobs, how the menu system works, etc. This thought came about from reading a live blog entry on ZDnet about someone trying to get into Ubuntu for the first time, and it struck me that 90% of the problems he experienced was caused simply by a lack of education that could have been given to him in his first 10 - 15 minutes after booting into Ubuntu. If there is an existing group looking at getting this done, please feel free to point me to it, otherwise I'd be interested to know what the best way might be for me to look at getting something like this started. Regards Gareth McCumskey -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Message Filter Problem
Which version of Evolution are you using, and what are your filter rules? How did you go about creating them? I've messed around with filters a fair bit, and might be able to help. --Dane On Tue, 2010-07-06 at 10:57 +0200, Kai Mast wrote: Hey, is anyone else haveing problems with the Message Filters in Evolution? It often doesn't detect messages from Mailinglists for me. Just wondering if I am the only one experiencing this. It's really annoying for me to sort them by hand... greetings, Kai -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: ntfs-3g - mount defaults
I'm glad you brought this up, Milan. I have been dealing with annoyances from this issue for several years now. (More reply text is in-line.) On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 01:28 +0200, Milan Niznansky wrote: Hi all, presently, default mount options for ntfs-3g are: ... gid=46,umask=007 ... This has (common user) usability consequences: 1) it disables silent option 2) it activates default_permissions option See http://www.tuxera.com/community/ntfs-3g-manual/ When a user attempts to copy files from ext filesystem to NTFS mounted with this option, he is very likely to be greeted with a huge ammount of ntfs-3g error messages as the silent behavior is suppressed. When user then searches for the problem, most solutions navigate him to create and configure .NTFS-3G/UserMapper. Getting that file right is several levels beyond getting /etc/fstab right manually for a casual user... I would suggest both gid and umask options be removed for desktop releases. I believe that this would be preferable to the current options, both for the reasons mentioned, and also because on a typical Desktop system (at least in my experience), having to deal with permissions on NTFS filesystems from Linux is really a pain at times, and seems entirely unnecessary. From the tuxera.com link above: By default, files and directories are owned by the effective user and group of the mounting process and everybody has full read, write, execution and directory browsing permissions. You can also assign permissions to a single user by using the uid and/or the gid options together with the umask, or fmask and dmask options. Doing so, Windows users have full access to the files created by ntfs-3g. It seems that this would make sharing and dual booting less of a hassle. User mapping is of limited use for basic dual-boot filesharing and requires extensive maintenance for correct operation. Also, the preferred way to create UserMapper is from within Windows which is by no means intuitive. Hopefully, I am not duplicating this. Regards, Milan --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: SRWare Iron: Chromium without the data-mining
accidently hit reply instead of sending to the list...whoops... I think some of you would be interested in reading this page that (allegedly) documents some of the (allegedly) somewhat shady beginnings of Iron: http://neugierig.org/software/chromium/notes/2009/12/iron.html If this information is correct, then I heavily question that Iron is a worthwhile project/fork at all, as opposed to being a way to garner publicity and money from fear mongering and (amusingly enough) Google advertisements on their web page. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Remove OO Draw from the default install
On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 09:49 -0400, Michael Robinson wrote: This is my first time posting to a mailing list in years, so someone let me know if I messed up. :) I've found Dia to be useful for diagrams. It's a lot like Visio (the flowchart program in MS Office). I took a look at Dia in the Ubuntu Software Center. While it looks well-adapted for diagramming schematics and such, I'm not sure how it would do with flow charts and the like. Any thoughts on that? --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Accounting Program
On Sat, 2010-03-06 at 11:44 -0800, Brian Vaughan wrote: On Sat, 2010-03-06 at 10:19 -0500, Martin Owens wrote: But I've seen QuickBooks, it looks really badly designed (from a UI perspective) so I'm intending on making something better than QuickBooks. Much better. You'd be doing everyone a great service if you did. In my experience, QuickBooks has the worst user interface of any consumer-oriented application I've ever encountered. And as far as I know, not only is there no native Linux equivalent, there's no proprietary OS equivalent either. So, users are stuck with an awful application. I just wanted to chime in and say, more power to you! I've been looking for some good Linux accounting software for years... Cheers! --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Fsck stops at boot, how to debug?
If you are unable to complete fsck on that partition from the live CD, you may have a bad hard drive (bad sectors, etc.). To test for that, boot onto a live CD, open a Terminal, and use this command: sudo badblocks -svb 4096 /dev/sda This will test the integrity of hard drive /dev/sda. Please note that even 1 bad sector means that the hard drive is bad (I can elaborate on this if necessary) and needs replacement. --Dane P. S. I've been a computer repair technician for many years. If you have further questions, you can email me directly. P. P. S. I accidentally hit the reply button instead of the reply to all button, at first. Sorry if you get two copies of this email. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Markus Hitter m...@jump-ing.de wrote: Am 05.02.2010 um 09:42 schrieb David MENTRE: The regular fsck that occurs at the boot of my Ubuntu Karmic x86_64 machine is stopping (once at 83%, once at 90%). The disk is inactive (led off). I can reboot the machine through Ctrl+Alt+Del. How can I debug such a situation? Boot off a live CD (or another partition) and do the fsck manually. If it still insists to fsck at boot time, hit the Esc key, this should abort checking. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Advanced?
On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 18:18 +0100, Dave Walker wrote: Dane Mutters wrote: SNIP Just an example that I was arguing with yesterday: /etc/resolv.conf. It's auto-generated by NetworkManager. I like NM; don't get me wrong, but if you need to change the DNS (or other) settings from the command prompt, it's really a pain. --Dane Hi Dane, Whilst i appreciate that is just an example, that particular issue can be overcome with, appending: prepend domain-name-servers $SOME_DNS_SERVER,$DNS_SERVER_2; to: /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf Then you have two DNS servers,at the top of /etc/resolv.conf Kind Regards, Dave Walker Thanks for the reply, Dave. That information will surely be useful in the future. :-D Might it be good to have a commented-out line in the generated /etc/resolv.conf stating something to that effect? I think it would be a good general rule to do this with any editable file in /etc/ (Editable Text Configuration...) that would normally be clobbered by such a thing after an edit. Any thoughts on that? --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu Advanced?
skripts, that generate configurationfiles, for everything they see and keep it forever - better tested (community is there to help, some unixers would like easy-to-maintain systems for ther families too) But it is already tested a lot and it is easy to maintain for families, there are lot of stories about grandma using Ubuntu floating around. - A centralized configuration that is under /etc/ and not too often changed by scripts, only if that is explicitly necessary. It is already done, as a basic principle of Debian and therefore Ubuntu too. And a bit more tidied-up configuration-tools that really use /etc/ like the admin does. Yes, I agree, some nice guis for some uncovered system settings would be nice. Ubuntu was so nice and tidy, because of its debian-flavour in the beginnig and now its too much affected by many skript-features, that make your life hard. Just an example that I was arguing with yesterday: /etc/resolv.conf. It's auto-generated by NetworkManager. I like NM; don't get me wrong, but if you need to change the DNS (or other) settings from the command prompt, it's really a pain. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Jaunty 64-bit and NVIDIA -- Any ideas?
On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 08:01 +0200, Davyd McColl wrote: Good day Thanks for your response. Suspecting that there could be a problem with the card itself (rather inconveniently coincidental, since I just bought a new mobo, psu and ram after a power surge (as far as I can ascertain) killed my PSU and I wasn't sure exactly what was dead, and just wanted to cover my bases; also, as noted in the OP, I reloaded, going from 32bit Jaunty to 64bit -- that seemed like the most likely culprit since 2D was working fine and 3D worked for a while), I bought an XFX GTX260 -- I've wanted to upgrade for the last year or so anyways... No problems now. (: I still find it odd that 2D worked flawlessly and 3D worked for a short amount of time -- about 5 seconds for glxgears and anywhere from 5 minutes to a few hours for GL screensavers... But perhaps there was a circuit in the 3D parts (I'm no electronic engineer!) which was damaged and just needed to warm up a little through usage to become blatantly broken. I'm going to give the card to someone else to test -- will report back. If the card works fine for someone else, then I really don't know how how to proceed with debugging this. I would have to assume that if the card isn't faulty elsewhere, then someone else may encounter the same issue. I'm still annoyed by the nvidia flicker on my laptop -- but apparently that's a long-standing issue (allegedly the quick black flicker is from the onboard gpu changing power usage / clock levels). To answer all posed questions (because it would be rude not to (: ). Some answers are from memory, so please bear with me: 1) glxinfo showed the usual large amount of stuff -- with the gl extensions supplied by NVIDIA 2) Yes, the NVIDIA closed driver was not only installed, but in use -- lsmod confirmed this (I also started to wonder...) 3) I did have compiz-fusion enabled. Never had the problem before, but I do believe I tried disabling compiz and still found simple apps like glxgears to cause lockup. See the wierdness? Compiz-fusion worked fine (with all its GL interaction), but something with a little more demand wreaked havoc) 4) Yes, totally up-to-date. Compulsively so (: -d Bummer about not getting to troubleshoot it further, but I'm glad you got it worked out! (Happy gaming!) :-) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Jaunty 64-bit and NVIDIA -- Any ideas?
On Mon, 2009-05-25 at 07:59 +0200, Davyd McColl wrote: Good day I've used Ubuntu for quite some time (years), following upgrade cycles on 32-bit and staying clear of 64-bit just because a lot of people have reported having a hard time of it. I recently installed 64-bit Jaunty on my laptop (HP Pavillion dv9352 with NVIDIA 7600 go graphics) and it worked so swimmingly that I decided to finally do a clean 64-bit install on my desktop instead of just dist-upgrade'ing to Jaunty as I would have normally done. Things have been good for a while -- but the problems have started as soon as I've required 3D applications to work. It started when I switched from Blank Screen to the BlinkBox screensaver. I came back to my machine to find it locked up after a while. This process was repeatable. Suspecting gnome-screensaver, I uninstalled and installed xscreensaver instead -- no change. And other 3D screensavers (like Bouncing Cow) cause the same issue. When I was playin Diablo II via WINE last night, I got a lockup after about 20 min play. All system temps are well within normal operating ranges -- the hardware doesn't seem to be the problem. ALT-SYSRQ keys still work, so the kernel is still alive. Suspecting graphics, I've downgraded from the 180 driver to the 173 -- same effect. The older 96 (iirc) driver doesn't seem to allow compiz, but does seem to suck just as much -- glxgears brought the system to a standstill, with occassional response from the mouse cursor -- but nothing else. I must also note here that glxgears quite reliably reproduces the system lockup for the 173 and 180 drivers. My next recourse is to try the beta (185) drivers from NVIDIA. I would have already but the download I left going overnight apparently broke somehow: the installer is complaining about a checksum mismatch -- so I'm re-downloading. What I want to know is: is this common for 64-bit systems (to have dodgy proprietary (ie, NVIDIA / ATI) drivers)? I've seen a lot of posts online about similar issues but they range right from Warty days -- has this always been an issue? Should I have rather just stuck with 32-bit? And does anyone know of aything other than trying the beta drivers which I can give a bash? I'm not a hectic gamer, but I do like to play something now and then (doom, quake, diablo, serious sam, etc), and it sucks that I'm unable to use a simple GL screensaver. Any ideas are appreciated. -d Hi, Davyd. I've been playing around with a few different motherboards at work, and have found that some of the ones with built-in 3d accelerated graphics behave oddly when the 3D drivers are installed. (Some of them will exhibit the behavior you've described, even though they're up to spec for running a given application.) That being said, perhaps you could post (or attach) the output of this command? (Omit the '$'--as you probably know, it's part of the command prompt.) $ glxinfo Also, please post or attach your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file, and the output of the command, 'lsmod | grep nvidia'. I'm interested in knowing whether the nVidia driver is actually being used, or if it's installed but disabled for some reason. Do you have Desktop effects (compiz-fusion) enabled? Try turning them off; perhaps the problem lies in compiz, not in the driver. I take it you've gotten all the system updates via the Update Manager? If not, it might be a good thing to do. I may not be a devel, but at least I can help troubleshoot. :-) --Dane Mutters -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: What do you think about the signal:noise ratio? Survey results
will do a better job of avoiding misdirected messages. - Andrew 4) I also agree that there should be more on-topic, polite, reasonable, and useful discussion taking place here. Maybe there should be less kicking of deceased equestrians, but I think it's worth noting that pretty much everybody has a different idea of when to declare the horse dead, so let's not belabor the issue of when to stop the discussion of a topic; that can be very offensive to somebody who still has something to say, and is not just repeating himself. Perhaps having better guidelines, or maybe better-phrased, requests for input would help this. I say requests for input because that's essentially what I think the devs (and others involved in improving Ubuntu) should be writing up in such a guidance document or FAQ, as opposed to focusing on what *not* to post. Generally, people will get the idea of what not to post simply by not seeing certain things mentioned at all in what *to* post. This should improve the constructive, positive atmosphere in this list rather than beating down those who have posted inappropriately in the past. We want to solicit useful input here, not scare off potential posters by telling them not to be evil people. :-D All-in-all, I think that this list has produced some very good things. I recall automatic downloading of media codecs, for example, being a direct result of things posted by users (including myself) in either this list or Ubuntu-devel. The easy inclusion of proprietary drivers, the process of cleaning up the sound system via Pulse Audio, and other improvements can be traced directly back to threads on lists to which users post, and devs listen and collaborate with them. Please keep hope in this list. It definitely needs some improvement, but it's certainly not something that anybody currently subscribed to it ought to abandon. OK, so my email wasn't short, but I hope it helps. Have a good one, everybody. --Dane Mutters -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea? - no.
On Sun, 2009-02-15 at 15:50 -0500, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: On Sunday 15 February 2009 12:24:32 pm Dylan McCall wrote: Re: SysRQ not working. Try it in a virtual terminal and see if that works (something harmless, like Alt SysRQ M). For starters, the SysRQ / Print Screen key becomes SysRQ when Alt is being pressed. Don't you mean when Fn is being pressed? Laptop users usually have to hit Alt+Fn+SysRq+letter Mike Jones started a bug report with some useful information on this issue. (I don't know if you saw that email; this thread is massive...) I just want to point anybody who's interested to this link, in case you have any ideas as to what's going on or how to fix it. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/329644 Thanks. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fake login screens
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 20:37 -0500, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: On Saturday 14 February 2009 8:31:17 pm Mike Jones wrote: But I've tried Alt+SysRq+K on many different computer systems I have access to. It doesn't seem to do anything. Could you please explain what I'm doing wrong? Or help me find out if I should file a bug report? File a bug, then. Does your SysRq key work at all? I have the same problem. Since I've been reading this thread, I've found that Alt+SysRq+K does nothing in GNOME or at the GDM screen (other than attempt to take a screenshot), but works fine in a virtual terminal (F1-F6). (I too use the proprietary nvidia driver from Restricted Modules, but my VTs work fine...) Mike, please let me know if/when you file a bug; I'd be interested in posting any info that the devs might find useful in fixing this. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Fwd: Is disabling ctrl-alt-backspace really such a good idea?
I've been following this discussion, and it seems that some people have been wanting some poll results. This might be of interest: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1040988 --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: poor performance hard disk IDE
I don't remember if I mentioned it on this list, but I submitted a bug (pertaining to Hardy) that at least SEEMS very similar to this a while ago. It has yet to be looked at. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/220349 I managed to find a workaround by way of recompiling the kernel and blacklisting a module. Perhaps somebody will find this useful. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: poor performance hard disk IDE
Stefano, I'm currently using this workaround with kernel 2.6.26.5, downloaded from www.kernel.org, and compiled/installed using The Old-Fashioned Debian Way ( https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile ). Attached is my most recent config file (compressed). --Dane On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 10:35 +0100, Stefano Doni wrote: Thanks Dane, is this workaround valid with stock kernels? Can other developers comment on this? I would not consider compiling my own kernel to be a solution for me, I firmly believe it is better to use the stock Ubuntu one. Thanks! 2008/10/28 Dane Mutters [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't remember if I mentioned it on this list, but I submitted a bug (pertaining to Hardy) that at least SEEMS very similar to this a while ago. It has yet to be looked at. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/220349 I managed to find a workaround by way of recompiling the kernel and blacklisting a module. Perhaps somebody will find this useful. --Dane config-2.6.26.5.tar.bz2 Description: application/bzip-compressed-tar -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: poor performance hard disk IDE
Stefano, Agreed. I only used the one from kernel.org because I wanted to try out a newer kernel. I did not, however, have to do any patching to use the workaround. I don't see why it wouldn't work with a stock Ubuntu kernel. --Dane On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 11:15 +0100, Stefano Doni wrote: Thanks Dave for your willingness, but I think it is definitely better to fix this into Ubuntu stock kernel, so that other user will benefit from it! 2008/10/28 Dane Mutters [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stefano, I'm currently using this workaround with kernel 2.6.26.5, downloaded from www.kernel.org, and compiled/installed using The Old-Fashioned Debian Way ( https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile ). Attached is my most recent config file (compressed). --Dane On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 10:35 +0100, Stefano Doni wrote: Thanks Dane, is this workaround valid with stock kernels? Can other developers comment on this? I would not consider compiling my own kernel to be a solution for me, I firmly believe it is better to use the stock Ubuntu one. Thanks! 2008/10/28 Dane Mutters [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't remember if I mentioned it on this list, but I submitted a bug (pertaining to Hardy) that at least SEEMS very similar to this a while ago. It has yet to be looked at. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/220349 I managed to find a workaround by way of recompiling the kernel and blacklisting a module. Perhaps somebody will find this useful. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Call for testing empathy
You're uploading the wrong file; you want empathy_..._source.changes. -- - mdz Thanks! I'll give that a shot. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 LTS released
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 14:35 +0100, (``-_-´´) -- Fernando wrote: Olá Mark e a todos. On Thursday 24 April 2008 14:02:52 Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Ubuntu Announcements wrote: The Ubuntu team is pleased to announce Ubuntu 8.04 LTS (Long-Term Support) on desktop and server, continuing Ubuntu's tradition of integrating the latest and greatest open source technologies into a high-quality, easy-to-use Linux distribution. Congratulations all on a phenomenal development cycle. From planning to release this has been both our most significant, and our best executed, release ever. I hope everyone will take the opportunity to celebrate at a release party or wherever you find yourself this evening! Mark It went great I'm already in final plans for our Ubuntu Hardy Install Fest next Saturday. A big THANK YOU to all Dev, and the rest of the Ubuntu/FOSS comunity. Congratulations, everybody! This is an awesome release! I've been enjoying using it since the Beta. Thanks for all your work! --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Evolution spam filter not working?
On Fri, 2008-04-11 at 22:35 +0200, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: Has anybody managed to get the bogofilter plugin for Evolution work in Hardy? For me, Evolution reports that learning spams works fine, everything is present (plugin and binaries), spamassasin is disabled, junk filtering is enabled, but spams don't get caught. I wonder about this because I did never have it working in precedent versions either, and I don't know if this is worth a bug. Maybe just clearing my user configuration would solve it - upgrading is often cause of trouble. Cheers I've run into the same problem. I've followed the advice in numerous forums, and while it will filter junk on command, it won't do it automatically. I wonder if this is a problem with the software (as opposed to the user :-). --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: regular fsck runs are too disturbing
On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 08:03 -0700, Neal McBurnett wrote: You're right - a deeper analysis is needed. And this issue has at least one official blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/prompt-for-fsck-on-shutdown https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutoFsckspec You can try AutoFsck: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutoFsck Autofsck looks like it would do the trick, IMHO. It would eliminate the nastiness of a 10+ minute boot time, and still go a long way to protect against filesystem corruption. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: regular fsck runs are too disturbing
On Sun, 2007-12-02 at 22:55 +, (=?utf-8?q?=60=60-=5F-=C2=B4=C2=B4?=) -- Fernando wrote: On Monday 22 October 2007 01:51:03 Dane Mutters wrote: I think that there is an occasional need to check the file system for errors, but I think that it might work better as an optional, but highly recommended thing. Here's another case in point: I have been working to set up an Ubuntu-based Asterisk phone server at my workplace. For this application, having to wait even 1 minute for the system to reboot (if necessary) is barely tolerable, but if it ever has to be restarted for any reason, and then insists on spending the next 5 minutes doing a fsck, thus rendering the business phone-less, that would surely make my employers very frustrated. I'm sure this has already been discussed, but I wish to add my opinion to that of others who believe that a better solution is needed. Surely, fsck is a really good idea, but for certain uses of Ubuntu, it's really not practical. I'm sure that something else can be devised. Keep up the good work. --Dane Dane , you can manually bypass this by using tune2fs, and disable the fsck on your server. While I personally know how to use tune2fs to this effect, not everybody else does. Also, it's rather easy to forget to set this. I don't know if there is a better solution that running it at boot (I realize that it's a bad idea to run fsck on a mounted drive), but it would be nice to at least be able to cancel the check (assuming there's not another solution that can run on a mounted FS). --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Is it possible to give the user the option to cancel forkbombs?
I thought you might find this helpful. (I brought this issue up with
the Slackware folks once, and they told me basically this.)
http://wiki.craz1.homelinux.com/index.php/Linux:Security:Forkbomb
I was also told that the ability to spawn such rampant forks/processes
is controlled by default in Debian. Is this the case?
Here is an LQ thread where I brought it up:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-security-4/how-can-i-prevent-forkbombs-338560/
I would like to see something done about this, with Ubuntu as popular as
it is, even as a server in some cases. Is there a way that in the
future, one could simply download a package or click a box or something
and have a limit set, like the links suggest? That would make things
just that much more convenient for system administrators (and might
help them/us to remember to set these limits, too...).
Thanks.
-Dane
On Fri, 2007-11-16 at 23:04 -0800, Martin Olsson wrote:
Sorry about that, I checked the has security impact checkbox and that
marked it as private by default. This is a very well known problem
though so keeping secret certainly does not make sense. I have manually
removed the private flag now.
The content of the bug report was as follows:
-
Repro steps:
1. Install gutsy gibbon (or probably any ubuntu)
2. Start a gnome terminal
3. Run this command:
:(){ :|: };:
4. Ubuntu starts to work furiously, after less than a second terminal
gets flooded with low resources message, and within a few seconds the
whole machine breaks down complete to the point where no a single pixel
is updated and the mouse cannot be moved at all. It's not possible to
escape to a ALT-Fn console terminal and CTRL-ALT-DEL does not work.
Okay, so this is not as bad as winnuke.exe because it's not remote but I
just did it on my shared hosting co and their server went down. And I
mean seriously, there should be a way for a user to abort stuff that
hogs resources this type of complete breakdown is NEVER acceptible. I
had to power of the machine and my file system got royally screwed (long
fsck etc).
Some of you might say this is like the oldest trick in the book, yada
yada yada...
Martin
Alan Cox wrote:
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:51:27 -0800
Martin Olsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear kernel hackers,
This is a message from below 0x7FFF. Please look at this bug (it's
not a new concept but still):
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/163185
It seems to want people to register to view it. I guess Ubuntu should fix
launchpad then we can see the bug report
Alan
-
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Re: regular fsck runs are too disturbing
I think that there is an occasional need to check the file system for errors, but I think that it might work better as an optional, but highly recommended thing. Here's another case in point: I have been working to set up an Ubuntu-based Asterisk phone server at my workplace. For this application, having to wait even 1 minute for the system to reboot (if necessary) is barely tolerable, but if it ever has to be restarted for any reason, and then insists on spending the next 5 minutes doing a fsck, thus rendering the business phone-less, that would surely make my employers very frustrated. I'm sure this has already been discussed, but I wish to add my opinion to that of others who believe that a better solution is needed. Surely, fsck is a really good idea, but for certain uses of Ubuntu, it's really not practical. I'm sure that something else can be devised. Keep up the good work. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
You devs rock. Thanks for your work.
I'm writing in response to some recent emails on this list that may have had a discouraging effect on the developers and other community members. While Some constructive criticism is needed, I would like to remind people that the developers are essentially volunteers who put a LOT of hard work into making a really great Linux distribution. So, the essence of what I'd like to say is that the Ubuntu devs (and those who contribute in any to the Ubuntu distro) are awesome and deserve a lot of respect. You've done wonders for making this (IMHO) the best distribution out there. Thanks for your work. I look forward with great anticipation to installing Gusty on my box. --Dane -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
