Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
John Richard Moser spake thusly on 218814416 :: OK, I had issues with bittorrent recently. Changing my tune. Whew! For a moment there you had me thinking you believe BitTorrent was the greatest thing since sliced bread... -- Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com I've never used an OS I didn't (dis)like. ©2007 angrykeyboarder™ Elmer Fudd. All Wites Wesewved -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
Op dinsdag 06-11-2007 om 22:38 uur [tijdzone +], schreef Caroline Ford: They don't tell you they block it until you have it installed. Which means they broke the contract, and you don't have to stay with them for a year... -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
Nicolas Alvarez wrote: John Richard Moser escribió: Anthony Bryan wrote: Hi, Have you thought about using Metalinks for your ISO downloads? It's an XML format used by download apps, and contains the ways to get a file (mirrors/P2P) along with info for automatic error detection/recovery (checksums) and other stuff. Bittorrent. It makes things simpler for the user, since they don't have to manually try a bunch of servers that could be down, can use local mirrors first, and can repair downloads (very useful for large files like ISOs). Bittorrent. I usually get slow speeds on BitTorrent. I download via HTTP (using multiple mirrors) and then seed the torrent for the rest. OK, I had issues with bittorrent recently. Changing my tune. Yeah let's go for this. -- Bring back the Firefox plushy! http://digg.com/linux_unix/Is_the_Firefox_plush_gone_for_good https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=322367 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
On ti, 2007-11-06 at 17:12 -0500, Phillip Susi wrote: In my 12 years of extensive Internet use, and several years prior to that of using BBSes, I have NEVER had a download corrupted. It seems to me that the sophisticated error detection and correction measures in the underlying links are sufficient to prevent such errors. The error checking in the TCP/IP layer is usually sufficient, but not always. The checksum is short enough (32 bits, if I remember correctly) that errors can creep in. I have had it happen at least once to me. Unfortunately, the errors are more likely the more you download, and the more traffic there is -- meaning that at release time, for example, things are most likely to break, when people download huge ISO files. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
Caroline Ford wrote: Some ISPs block bittorrent of course. Vodafone UK is one of them. I had great problems downloading openoffice.org for windows as they *only* use bittorrent as a distribution mechanism. You should browbeat such an ISP, not cave in to their draconian will. Vigorously complain and if they do not stop, take your business elsewhere. Giving in and using http instead just encourages them to continue to think that they can screw you over any way they want. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
On 07/11/07 07:14, Phillip Susi wrote: Caroline Ford wrote: Some ISPs block bittorrent of course. Vodafone UK is one of them. I had great problems downloading openoffice.org for windows as they *only* use bittorrent as a distribution mechanism. You should browbeat such an ISP, not cave in to their draconian will. Vigorously complain and if they do not stop, take your business elsewhere. Giving in and using http instead just encourages them to continue to think that they can screw you over any way they want. While I understand what caused you to write this paragraph, perhaps you might consider a scenario where bittorrent is completely inappropriate. I am connected to the Internet via a 2-way vSat connection. This is an asymmetric connection, in my case 1024kBit/256kBit. If I were to use bittorrent to download something, my satellite uplink would quickly swamp my downlink at any share-rate, making the transfer absolutely horrendous. Bittorrent may well be useful in some environments, but not in all, nor is every ISP who restricts you trying to screw you over any way they want. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
Phillip Susi escribió: Anthony Bryan wrote: Hi, Have you thought about using Metalinks for your ISO downloads? It's an XML format used by download apps, and contains the ways to get a file (mirrors/P2P) along with info for automatic error detection/recovery (checksums) and other stuff. In my 12 years of extensive Internet use, and several years prior to that of using BBSes, I have NEVER had a download corrupted. It seems to me that the sophisticated error detection and correction measures in the underlying links are sufficient to prevent such errors. Hmm... For a reason Ubuntu provides the full-file checksums, and people are encouraged to check them. Wonder what that reason is? It makes things simpler for the user, since they don't have to manually try a bunch of servers that could be down, can use local mirrors first, and can repair downloads (very useful for large files like ISOs). Usually the link on the web site chooses a mirror for you. Which is usually completely overloaded on a release day. I have seen it happen on both releases this year, lots of people on the irc channel asking for a working mirror. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
Anthony Bryan wrote: Hi, Have you thought about using Metalinks for your ISO downloads? It's an XML format used by download apps, and contains the ways to get a file (mirrors/P2P) along with info for automatic error detection/recovery (checksums) and other stuff. In my 12 years of extensive Internet use, and several years prior to that of using BBSes, I have NEVER had a download corrupted. It seems to me that the sophisticated error detection and correction measures in the underlying links are sufficient to prevent such errors. It makes things simpler for the user, since they don't have to manually try a bunch of servers that could be down, can use local mirrors first, and can repair downloads (very useful for large files like ISOs). Usually the link on the web site chooses a mirror for you. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
Caroline Ford wrote: On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 17:14 -0500, Phillip Susi wrote: Caroline Ford wrote: Some ISPs block bittorrent of course. Vodafone UK is one of them. I had great problems downloading openoffice.org for windows as they *only* use bittorrent as a distribution mechanism. You should browbeat such an ISP, not cave in to their draconian will. Vigorously complain and if they do not stop, take your business elsewhere. Giving in and using http instead just encourages them to continue to think that they can screw you over any way they want. We have 12 month contracts... They don't tell you they block it until you have it installed. It's not giving in, they really don't care. I'd imagine the UK doesn't have something like the SEC or BBB to tell them they're not allowed to false advertise or omit important details about provided service. Guess it's like Japan, where you can get F-Cups (cookies that advertise that 100% of the contained fat goes straight to your boobs). You'd choose MS Office over a program you can only get via bittorrent? Those were almost my choices Caroline -- Bring back the Firefox plushy! http://digg.com/linux_unix/Is_the_Firefox_plush_gone_for_good https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=322367 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
On 06/11/2007 Caroline Ford wrote: You'd choose MS Office over a program you can only get via bittorrent? Those were almost my choices I don't think you can download and use msoffice without either paying /or/ using a peer-to-peer network, so you're right, they're beating us on this side, since they offer two different ways to download the program :) Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
Anthony Bryan wrote: I usually get slow speeds on BitTorrent. I download via HTTP (using multiple mirrors) and then seed the torrent for the rest. As do I. There are several files that have left me stranded for so long that I ended up just using HTTP and discarding the nearly-complete torrent. That said, I prefer to use torrents and give something back. That isn't such an issue with Ubuntu, as the local mirror has near-unlimited bandwidth and commercial reasons why they want people to use them as much as possible. So for Ubuntu, I use direct HTTP. Given that the metalink files are XML, there seems no reason that I can see why they couldn't include bittorrent trackers. That would allow the bittorrent client in Ubuntu, for example, to test out the different trackers and use the best one(s). If speed dropped below a certain point, or a chunk wasn't in the bittorrent mesh, HTTP could be used to the extent necessary to top up the downloading. In order to implement this, Ubuntu would realistically need some sort of download manager. I was a big fan of GetRight when I used Windows. I would be happy if I loaded up Hardy and it had a sparkly new download manager, fully integrated with every desktop app that may download something (Firefox etc.) and handling metalinks and torrents (including metalink files with torrent info). Anything that isn't downloaded and displayed within the browser window is really the same from the user's point of view and the interface should probably be the same. I don't, however, expect the developers to divert resources from higher priorities to create one when the tools already integrated into U/Gobuntu already work. Aaron -- FSF Associate Member: 5632 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
To follow up on my original post, Agostino Russo (Wubi author) pushed for metalinks at UDS Boston and it sounds like they should hopefully be ready for Hardy: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-cdimage/+bug/140458/ On 11/5/07, Aaron Whitehouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony Bryan wrote: I usually get slow speeds on BitTorrent. I download via HTTP (using multiple mirrors) and then seed the torrent for the rest. As do I. There are several files that have left me stranded for so long that I ended up just using HTTP and discarding the nearly-complete torrent. That said, I prefer to use torrents and give something back. That isn't such an issue with Ubuntu, as the local mirror has near-unlimited bandwidth and commercial reasons why they want people to use them as much as possible. So for Ubuntu, I use direct HTTP. I do the same thing. I assume other people are trying to contribute like that as well. Given that the metalink files are XML, there seems no reason that I can see why they couldn't include bittorrent trackers. That would allow the bittorrent client in Ubuntu, for example, to test out the different trackers and use the best one(s). If speed dropped below a certain point, or a chunk wasn't in the bittorrent mesh, HTTP could be used to the extent necessary to top up the downloading. Yes, that's one of the features of metalinks, you can include a URL to a torrent now. Still working out some of the implementation details for including torrent info like trackers etc in the XML. In order to implement this, Ubuntu would realistically need some sort of download manager. I was a big fan of GetRight when I used Windows. I would be happy if I loaded up Hardy and it had a sparkly new download manager, fully integrated with every desktop app that may download something (Firefox etc.) and handling metalinks and torrents (including metalink files with torrent info). Anything that isn't downloaded and displayed within the browser window is really the same from the user's point of view and the interface should probably be the same. I don't, however, expect the developers to divert resources from higher priorities to create one when the tools already integrated into U/Gobuntu already work. I don't know of any maintained ready GTK download managers. Celerius is one that's in progress that eventually will support everything you've mentioned. You can find it at http://celerius.tuxfamily.org/ GetRight is great and supports this now but it's Windows only. Free Download Manager, another metalink/torrent client, is GPLv3 now, but Windows only as well. -- (( Anthony Bryan ... Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ] )) Easier, More Reliable, Self Healing Downloads -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
On 11/4/07, John Richard Moser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anthony Bryan wrote: Hi, Have you thought about using Metalinks for your ISO downloads? It's an XML format used by download apps, and contains the ways to get a file (mirrors/P2P) along with info for automatic error detection/recovery (checksums) and other stuff. Bittorrent. It makes things simpler for the user, since they don't have to manually try a bunch of servers that could be down, can use local mirrors first, and can repair downloads (very useful for large files like ISOs). Bittorrent. It's not an either/or situation :) They are used together. Metalink is focused on describing the content and how to get it, the download client can use ftp, http, torrent, or other p2p to get the files. If you've been following the thread, you've realized that bittorrent isn't possible or preferable to everyone in every situation. There are always going to be some people downloading ISOs from ftp/http mirrors, and those people would definitely be better off using a metalink for the higher availability/reliability and automatic error correction. -- (( Anthony Bryan ... Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ] )) Easier, More Reliable, Self Healing Downloads -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
On Sun, 2007-11-04 at 23:50 -0500, John Richard Moser wrote: Anthony Bryan wrote: Hi, Have you thought about using Metalinks for your ISO downloads? It's an XML format used by download apps, and contains the ways to get a file (mirrors/P2P) along with info for automatic error detection/recovery (checksums) and other stuff. Bittorrent. Some ISPs block bittorrent of course. Vodafone UK is one of them. I had great problems downloading openoffice.org for windows as they *only* use bittorrent as a distribution mechanism. Someone thankfully pointed me in the direction of a novell (I think) version which was available to download normally. Caroline -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Easier and more reliable ISO downloads, with error correction
Hi, Have you thought about using Metalinks for your ISO downloads? It's an XML format used by download apps, and contains the ways to get a file (mirrors/P2P) along with info for automatic error detection/recovery (checksums) and other stuff. It makes things simpler for the user, since they don't have to manually try a bunch of servers that could be down, can use local mirrors first, and can repair downloads (very useful for large files like ISOs). About 15 download managers P2P apps support it so far, including aria2 (in the Ubuntu repos), DownThemAll! (Firefox extension), KGet2 (part of KDE4), and popular DMs on Windows and OS X like GetRight, Free Download Manager, Orbit, wxDownload Fast, Speed Download, and TheWorld web browser. Wubi, the Ubuntu Windows installer, Ubuntu Greece and Indonesia use them as well. Over 20 other distros use Metalink, along with OpenOffice.org, cURL, and LugRadio. Metalinks for Ubuntu 7.10 are at http://www.metalinker.org/samples/ubuntu/ Here's part of what one looks like: file name=ubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso osLinux-x86/os size729608192/size verification hash type=md5d2334dbba7313e9abc8c7c072d2af09c/hash /verification resources url type=http location=ro preference=90 http://ftp.iasi.roedu.net/mirrors/ubuntulinux.org/releases/.pool/ubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso /url url type=http location=jp preference=100 http://ftp.yz.yamagata-u.ac.jp/pub/linux/ubuntu/releases/.pool/ubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso /url url type=http location=us preference=90 http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/ubuntu/.pool/ubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso /url /resources /file PS - Great work on Gutsy, it's very nice :) -- (( Anthony Bryan ... Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ] )) Easier, More Reliable, Self Healing Downloads -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
