Re: libc borked (and I stop testing)
Vincenzo Ciancia a écrit : A possible idea to improve the situation is to have a regression tag, and to mark high priority all regressions. Say what you want, but this is *exactly* the behaviour that one would expect from any software distributor: things works, you break it, I tell you as soon as I discover it, you fix it as soon as possible because the bug is in the change you just made, so your change has to be fixed. If you let the regression there for three years, you'll have hysterical raisins when you put your hands back on that code. +1 Would somebody that can set up new rules for Bug Squad, QA, Bug Control and so on teams add the tag regression in the list of tags to use, and shift policy so that every regression is marked as High priority? This would at least help to sum up what should really be fixed, because often these bugs are forgotten. Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: libc borked (and I stop testing)
I'm in the same boat as you Vincenzo. Kind of the last straw for myself also. Been trying for a while now to test and get fixes into Hardy so that the Thinkpad T61 whould work out of the box (pretty much perfectly). As this is they laptop I now use on a daily basis, and I was going to try and start average users on the same platform with Ubuntu. But there is an extreme problem with Ubuntu developers ignoring bugzilla and straight up breaking stuff. In all my bugzillas I try to include fixes, but even with fixes...no love. As of late there have been big regressions and it seems futile to file a bugzilla as it appears nobody is going to give it any attention. Lately Hardy has been so badly breaking, during a time when time where this shouldn't happen. I think Cory was dead on about libc though. How can this of all packages break now! I'm joining you to just going back to being a user for myself.. and stop having these lofty ideas that things can work perfectly. On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:03 AM, Vincenzo Ciancia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Il giorno mer, 12/03/2008 alle 23.20 -0400, Cory K. ha scritto: Thanx to the genius who let the libc update through and rendered 3 systems unbootable here. I look forward to your visit to my home to fix them. Frustrated and pissed, Cory K. Even though the tone of the mail is angry, it's really bad that things like this libc update happen - I personally don't understand how this is possible at all, if developers test their packages. A revert system after upgrade mode should be designed and implemented to the benefit of testers (unionfs plus a commit operation to the main filesystem seems to me like an implementable solution). Would not be efficient but would be a bit safer - you already have unionfs in the livecd so you have some expertise. I am sad to say that my hardy testing experience stops here - I wanted to make my experience as a free software user, and as a developer, available to ubuntu community as a form of payment for such a good distribution. Problem is not the libc bug by itself of course. If you want to know read below - but it's not necessary at all. Problem is that I should waste hours fixing the libc bug, and I am doing this just to let the world benefit from fixes I can already install and hack up locally on my pc. The balance between costs and benefits is dropping down too quick. Many regressions I've personally been trying to help sorting out have a fix, signaled by one of the testers (usually not me since I am not that smart, but I usually took the time to test the fix and reported) and the fix is not being applied, and developers are waiting for *users* to UVFE. I am more and more being convinced that testing new ubuntu is a complete waste of time for me. The main point that, to my eyes, the ubuntu upload-enabled community seems not to be understanding, is that one should try to re-use people's expertise. You can't ask a person that already can debug a kernel module to also learn to package debs and all the ubuntu burocracy. That's a problem of developers. If you have a clever user (I am *not* talking about me :) ) that provides a fix and explains how he/she got there, you can't ask for more. You are the developer, you have the expertise to fix bugs in ubuntu, the tester provided the fix, having the expertise to test it, why not joining forces? personal story follows, the main point of the e-mail is what you already read Next LTS won't have proper support for my tablet. I surrender. It's two years I have been waiting the day I can advice ubuntu to people who have the same laptop as mine, and still nobody cares. Next year I will have to return this laptop to university, and I'll perhaps buy a different tablet. With different problems. And I've never seen ubuntu working out of the box there - even though there always was a well-known and signaled to developers way to make it work. I've seen things stopping working, nobody cared in the world. For example, my sd card reader worked in edgy and will never work in any future ubuntu release. I opened a bug *during feisty beta* - it used to work in some feisty alpha but don't know which one, then it was marked as duplicate of another bug, which after months was fixed and was not a dupe of mine, I then had to reopen a new bug, and *nobody cared anymore*. Don't bull*hit on me. The problem I am pointing out is real. There is a regression from previous releases and nobody cares, because few users have it. But that's a regression. Ok, few users have it because the vaste majority of tablet users don't even consider the crazy idea of running that hacky linux on it. Accept this and if and when ubuntu will work on tablets really out of the box, you'll see how many users are affected by such regressions. I've followed bug reports, provided requested information, tried to
Re: libc borked (and I stop testing)
On Thursday 13 March 2008 08:03:32 Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno mer, 12/03/2008 alle 23.20 -0400, Cory K. ha scritto: Thanx to the genius who let the libc update through and rendered 3 systems unbootable here. I look forward to your visit to my home to fix them. Frustrated and pissed, Cory K. Even though the tone of the mail is angry, it's really bad that things like this libc update happen - I personally don't understand how this is possible at all, if developers test their packages. I've uploaded stuff that turned out to be broken. There are many possible reasons for this. It's not feasible to do full regression testing for every upload. Not just due to time, but because of the wide range of hardware used for Ubuntu. A revert system after upgrade mode should be designed and implemented to the benefit of testers (unionfs plus a commit operation to the main filesystem seems to me like an implementable solution). Would not be efficient but would be a bit safer - you already have unionfs in the livecd so you have some expertise. This is the sort of thing that should be proposed as a specification and decided on at UDS. It sounds like a nice idea. I'm not qualified to have an opinion on how feasible it is. I am sad to say that my hardy testing experience stops here - I wanted to make my experience as a free software user, and as a developer, available to ubuntu community as a form of payment for such a good distribution. Problem is not the libc bug by itself of course. If you want to know read below - but it's not necessary at all. Problem is that I should waste hours fixing the libc bug, and I am doing this just to let the world benefit from fixes I can already install and hack up locally on my pc. The balance between costs and benefits is dropping down too quick. Many regressions I've personally been trying to help sorting out have a fix, signaled by one of the testers (usually not me since I am not that smart, but I usually took the time to test the fix and reported) and the fix is not being applied, and developers are waiting for *users* to UVFE. I am more and more being convinced that testing new ubuntu is a complete waste of time for me. I've found just the opposite. I've found as I got more and more involved in first testing and then development I've been able to get more and more of my personal pain points dealt with. Also, keep in mind that most developers are volunteers. Volunteer work gets done on the basis of interest. If a user wants a problem solved, I've got neither the time nor interest in being their personal UVFe (now FFe) writer. I'm glad to help them figure out how to do it, but I'm fully busy working on the problems that I'm trying to solve. The main point that, to my eyes, the ubuntu upload-enabled community seems not to be understanding, is that one should try to re-use people's expertise. You can't ask a person that already can debug a kernel module to also learn to package debs and all the ubuntu burocracy. That's a problem of developers. If you have a clever user (I am *not* talking about me :) ) that provides a fix and explains how he/she got there, you can't ask for more. You are the developer, you have the expertise to fix bugs in ubuntu, the tester provided the fix, having the expertise to test it, why not joining forces? This is certainly ideal, but it's not like the developer is sitting around waiting for more to work on. What we need are more people working on all levels of the problem. It is a general case that we could use more people who know packaging working on packaging up available fixes. I think there have been some recent initiatives to encourage this. personal story follows, the main point of the e-mail is what you already read Next LTS won't have proper support for my tablet. I surrender. It's two years I have been waiting the day I can advice ubuntu to people who have the same laptop as mine, and still nobody cares. Next year I will have to return this laptop to university, and I'll perhaps buy a different tablet. With different problems. And I've never seen ubuntu working out of the box there - even though there always was a well-known and signaled to developers way to make it work. I've seen things stopping working, nobody cared in the world. For example, my sd card reader worked in edgy and will never work in any future ubuntu release. I opened a bug *during feisty beta* - it used to work in some feisty alpha but don't know which one, then it was marked as duplicate of another bug, which after months was fixed and was not a dupe of mine, I then had to reopen a new bug, and *nobody cared anymore*. Don't bull*hit on me. The problem I am pointing out is real. There is a regression from previous releases and nobody cares, because few users have it. But that's a regression. Ok, few users have it because the vaste majority of tablet users don't even
