Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü
- Original Message - From: Michael Everson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Andries [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: David Starner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:35 AM Subject: [Very-OT] Re: ü snip Garçon in Oxford English Dictionary but garconnière (bachelor's housing) in my Webster's New Lexicon (no cedilla, grave accent). Webster's Third New International (1961): garçon Supplement (n.d.): garçonnière. Oxford New Dictionary of English (2001): garçon, garçonnière. New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, January 1997, on CD-ROM has: garçon, garconnière. How's that for consistency? Of course, given the evidence above, they may have revised that by now. Mike.
Re: RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
At 21:11 -0500 2002-01-23, Patrick Andries wrote: In the first edition of this dictionary it was said that in many compounds whose second element begins with h the h is silent unless the accent falls on the syllable that it begins; thus philhellenic and philharmonic should not sound the h; in nihilism also it should be silent. Here too the speak-as-you-spell movement has been at work, and though the COD [Concise Oxford Dictionary] does not favour the pronunciation of the h in these words, Not so, at least not in the ninth edition, 1998. it is in fact often heard I wouldn't say I'd ever heard these words without the h. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü
A 08:13 2002-01-23 -0500, John Cowan a écrit : Middle French spelling is very unphonemic. This is the so-called aspirated h, which still blocks liaison even though it is quite silent now. [Alain] Not only quite, but absolutely mute, one must not be so shy. We use the word aspirated to distinguish them from all other mute h's just because the h has an effect on pronunciation, but the h itself is never pronounced in French. Example of aspirated h (they are exceptional anyway) in French : « des héros » (which means « [some, many] heroes »)... pronounced « day 'ayro » (which distinguishes the words from « des zéros » (« dayzayro »), which means « [some, many] zeroes ». Alain LaBonté Québec
RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
A 16:18 2002-01-23 -0800, Yves Arrouye a écrit : Obviously (I advocate in French changing the spelling of common foreign words so that there would be more consistency). Le ouiquende? That would be pronounced wikãd... To respect the English pronunciation you would have to write it ouiquennde, which would still be a very odd spelling in French... The end sound is really not French in itself... France's Académie française is good at that: they recently invented cédérom (CD-ROM; gets used because it's quite okay), and mèl (mail, for e-mail; nobody uses it except to make fun of it). [Alain] Mel is a horrible and hypocritical abbreviation of Messagerie électronique recommended in the French government. It is recommended not to use it as a noun. However some people in France used to say email and now say mel in spite of the recommendation not to pronounce the abbreviation. Québec invented the (French-sounding) word courriel (for courrier électronique)... It is more and more used in France too. For one, I must also confess that I personally write the word cédérom (the sounds no not shock a French speaker and the spelling either -- wile email pronounced ee-mail [iméle or imèle] in French, is horribly schizophrenic) although the word will probably disappear over time [regardless of its spelling], as well as the word microsillon (33 RPM records)... Using generic names (such as disque for CD-ROM, relatively technology-independent), was a good evolution in languages (we use one word for all tables, it distracts to change words just because the shape changes, if the intent is to describe a function). It seems that nowadays we put more and more accent on technology, on how things are made, rather than on their destination (functionality). It is perhaps a sociological fact that I find interesting to notice. Alain LaBonté Québec
Re: [Very-OT] Re:
Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language lists only (filʹ här mänʹ ik). Best regards, James Kass. - Original Message - From: Michael Everson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü At 11:54 -0600 2002-01-23, David Starner wrote: On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 10:52:57AM -0500, Patrick Andries wrote: By the way, I pronounce the h in philharmonic. I believe this is not what my Webster and my Fowler's Modern English Usage recommend. My dialect is my dialect. A Pronouncing Dictionary of American English (Kenyon Knott) have it as an accepted variant. The American Heritage Dictionary gives it first, with the h-less one second. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü
A 00:35 2002-01-23 +, Michael Everson a écrit : At 18:30 -0500 2002-01-22, Patrick Andries wrote: Obviously (I advocate in French changing the spelling of common foreign words so that there would be more consistency). Le ouiquende? That would be pronounced wikãd... To respect the English pronunciation you would have to write it ouiquennde, which would still be a very odd spelling in French... The end sound is really not French in itself... Alain LaBonté Québec
Re: Re: [Very-OT] Re:
James Kass wrote: Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language lists only (filʹ här mänʹ ik). Best regards, James Kass. Well, well, I dare say, these rebel dialects will never cease to amaze me. BTW, are those two a's really identical? My colonial dictionary (Webster's New Lexicon) writes: ( I hope IPA will be properly displayed) ˌfilɘrmɒˈnik (well it puts a acute accent below the i and then above it), ˌfilhɑrmɒˈnik I see that Microsoft seems also to be peddling this sole dialectal pronunciation through its Encarta Encyclopaedia (online). Regretable. On the other hand, my Great-British Collins dictionary properly renders ˌfɪlɑ:ˈmɒnɪk. There is still a glimmer of light, I mean a beacon, in this cacophony. Patrick Answers off list, please.
RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
Obviously (I advocate in French changing the spelling of common foreign words so that there would be more consistency). Le ouiquende? That would be pronounced wikãd... To respect the English pronunciation you would have to write it ouiquennde, which would still be a very odd spelling in French... The end sound is really not French in itself... France's Académie française is good at that: they recently invented cédérom (CD-ROM; gets used because it's quite okay), and mèl (mail, for e-mail; nobody uses it except to make fun of it). YA
Re: RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
Yves Arrouye wrote: France's Académie française is good at that: they recently invented cédérom (CD-ROM; gets used because it's quite okay), and mèl (mail, for e-mail; nobody uses it except to make fun of it). Mél (which I oppose) was never proposed as a word but as an abbreviation for messagerie électronique (we are told as tél is one for téléphone on business cards). Le symbole : Mél., pour « messagerie électronique », peut figurer devant l'adresse électronique sur un document (papier à lettres ou carte de visite, par exemple), tout comme Tél. devant le numéro de téléphone. « Mél. » NE doit PAS être employé comme substantif. And strictly speaking the Academy only approved this abreviation and did not proposed it, the Ministry of Culture did. http://www.culture.fr/culture/dglf/dispositif-enrichissement.htm http://www.culture.fr/culture/dglf/dispositif-enrichissement.htm In Québec, one usually reads, hears and sees courriel (courrier+él ectronique). The steps of the main metro station of Montréal were some time ago painted in purple and yellow with Yahoo! Courriel painted on them. I won't deny that from time to time, one will not have to suffer a Hexagonal mail... Patrick Andries --- http://hapax.iquebec.com In the first edition of this dictionary it was said that in many compounds whose second element begins with h the h is silent unless the accent falls on the syllable that it begins; thus philhellenic and philharmonic should not sound the h; in nihilism also it should be silent. Here too the speak-as-you-spell movement has been at work, and though the COD [Concise Oxford Dictionary] does not favour the pronunciation of the h in these words, it is in fact often heard, and some modern modern dictionaries give it. See a, an, I, honorarium, hotel [also references to old silent h pronunciations in herb, hospital, humble, humour] and wh [hw sound [re]gaining ground under the influence of the speak-as-you-spell movement in England] (Fowler's Modern English Usage, 2nd ed., 1965)
RE: RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
http://www.culture.fr/culture/dglf/dispositif-enrichissement.htm http://www.culture.fr/culture/dglf/dispositif-enrichissement.htm Thanks for the pointer. Though I can't fine the exact sentence re: the substantive use I found mél referred to as a symbol for messagerie électronique. I like courriel a lot. Nice. YA
Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü
In a message dated 2002-01-23 13:32:39 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language lists only (fil' här män' ik). BTW, are those two a's really identical? They are in my dialect, a mixture of Southern California and Great Lakes, but not in some others. For example, they would be different in British RP. By the way... (desperate attempt to get this thread back on-topic) - the first is U+10402 (or U+1042A) - the second is U+10409 (or U+10431) The biggest problem I had learning the Deseret Alphabet was figuring out the difference between these two vowels, especially they're the same to me. Now I decide on the basis of how I think the vowels would be pronounced in RP, so philharmonic is spelled: 10441 1042E 1044A 10438 1042A 10449 1044B 10431 1044C 1042E 1043F (Yes, I pronounce both the h and the r.) -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California
