Re: non-breaking snakes

[Philippe Verdy]

This is the same thing as:

.
:

*
===
/
-
TTT

You can use any characters (punctuation, symbols, even letters) or graphics
aligned in a row to create such fillers But isolately these characters have
their own meaning, independantly of their "snake" usage. The vine symbol is
not special. It also maps to "leaders" dots used in TOCs or input forms.

That's why I suggest that this usage being only a matter of style for
graphically representing (with known fonts and layouts) a "snake", which
may still be represented by a format control where they are authorized for
insertion by line justification, instead of just whitespaces.

Then a stylesheet, specific to a page layout, will do the rest, specifying
the graphics or characters to use for these insertions, without having the
document to specify a specific number of signs. In a plain-text format with
unspecified layout, it should not even be visible.

2016-05-07 7:35 GMT+02:00 Leo Broukhis :

> Also, or rather foremost, to U+2766 ❦ FLORAL HEART
>
> ❦ - what does the (almost) connecting vine remind me of? Hmmm...
>
> Leo
>
>
> 2016-05-06 21:54 GMT-07:00 António Martins-Tuválkin :
>
>> On 2016.05.04 07:54, Julian Bradfield wrote:
>>
>> See http://xkcd.com/1676/
>>> (making sure to look at the mouse-over text)
>>>
>>
>> The new snake character needs to have in its remarks field see-also links
>> to these:
>>
>> U+115F HANGUL CHOSEONG FILLER
>> U+1160 HANGUL JUNGSEONG FILLER
>> U+3164 HANGUL FILLER : chaeum
>> U+A8F9 DEVANAGARI GAP FILLER
>> U+FFA0 HALFWIDTH HANGUL FILLER (decomp.: U+3164)
>> U+10AF6 MANICHAEAN PUNCTUATION LINE FILLER
>>
>> --  .
>> António MARTINS-Tuválkin   |  ()|
>>    ||
>> PT-1500-124 LisboaNão me invejo de quem tem |
>> PT-2695-010 Bobadela LRS  carros, parelhas e montes |
>> +351 934 821 700, +351 212 463 477só me invejo de quem bebe |
>> facebook.com/profile.php?id=744658416 a água em todas as fontes |
>> -
>> De sable uma fonte e bordadura escaqueada de jalde e goles por timbre
>> bandeira por mote o 1º verso acima e por grito de guerra "Mi rajtas!"
>> -
>>
>
>

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Leo Broukhis]

Also, or rather foremost, to U+2766 ❦ FLORAL HEART

❦ - what does the (almost) connecting vine remind me of? Hmmm...

Leo


2016-05-06 21:54 GMT-07:00 António Martins-Tuválkin :

> On 2016.05.04 07:54, Julian Bradfield wrote:
>
> See http://xkcd.com/1676/
>> (making sure to look at the mouse-over text)
>>
>
> The new snake character needs to have in its remarks field see-also links
> to these:
>
> U+115F HANGUL CHOSEONG FILLER
> U+1160 HANGUL JUNGSEONG FILLER
> U+3164 HANGUL FILLER : chaeum
> U+A8F9 DEVANAGARI GAP FILLER
> U+FFA0 HALFWIDTH HANGUL FILLER (decomp.: U+3164)
> U+10AF6 MANICHAEAN PUNCTUATION LINE FILLER
>
> --  .
> António MARTINS-Tuválkin   |  ()|
>    ||
> PT-1500-124 LisboaNão me invejo de quem tem |
> PT-2695-010 Bobadela LRS  carros, parelhas e montes |
> +351 934 821 700, +351 212 463 477só me invejo de quem bebe |
> facebook.com/profile.php?id=744658416 a água em todas as fontes |
> -
> De sable uma fonte e bordadura escaqueada de jalde e goles por timbre
> bandeira por mote o 1º verso acima e por grito de guerra "Mi rajtas!"
> -
>

Re: non-breaking snakes

[António Martins-Tuválkin]

On 2016.05.04 07:54, Julian Bradfield wrote:


See http://xkcd.com/1676/
(making sure to look at the mouse-over text)


The new snake character needs to have in its remarks field see-also 
links to these:


U+115F HANGUL CHOSEONG FILLER
U+1160 HANGUL JUNGSEONG FILLER
U+3164 HANGUL FILLER : chaeum
U+A8F9 DEVANAGARI GAP FILLER
U+FFA0 HALFWIDTH HANGUL FILLER (decomp.: U+3164)
U+10AF6 MANICHAEAN PUNCTUATION LINE FILLER

--  .
António MARTINS-Tuválkin   |  ()|
   ||
PT-1500-124 LisboaNão me invejo de quem tem |
PT-2695-010 Bobadela LRS  carros, parelhas e montes |
+351 934 821 700, +351 212 463 477só me invejo de quem bebe |
facebook.com/profile.php?id=744658416 a água em todas as fontes |
-
De sable uma fonte e bordadura escaqueada de jalde e goles por timbre
bandeira por mote o 1º verso acima e por grito de guerra "Mi rajtas!"
-

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Philippe Verdy]

My opjion is that the choice of graphics for these fillers is just a matter
of style. A single filler (format control) would be enough to encode
(simplying later the text handling in order to ignore them for plain text
searches or collation). These fillers are only made for specific text
layouts with specific fonts at specific sizes, the number of actual
symbols/graphics you would need is unpredictable in all other cases.

The format control would only be used to mark where these fillers are
safely insertable automatically (just like SHY marks).

The situation however would be different if these marks are also used as
bases for holding diacritics (this is the case of the Arabic Tatweel). But
using CGJ (or some other control with combining class 0) is generally
enough to mark their separation from the base letter to which they would
normally attach. The diacritic will be positioned relative to this
zero-width CGJ, above or below.

But CGJ itself is not freely "extensible" in width for line justification.
So the encoding would be  if you want all
diacritics to remain attached located to the start side of the filler. If
the diacritics should come at the end side of the filler, they would be
encoded as . In summary that FILLER would be just
another form for CGJ, except that it is extensible like whitespaces for
line justification purpose. Also the FILLER would not necessarily hold
diacritics and could be used alone, even without letters on either sides of
it.

The Arabic Tatweel is behaving mosly like CGJ (diacritics are normally
rendered on the start side of the filler, but there are some cases where
the Arabic diacritics are centered on the filler: it behaves more like a
normal letter for rendering, even if it's ignorable for plain-text
searches, and may not be rendered at all if there's no need to justify
lines or diacritics may still fit around the base letter before it or even
in its normal position with that base letter).





2016-05-06 17:21 GMT+02:00 Marcel Schneider :

> On Wed, 4 May 2016 08:27:55 +0100, Richard Wordingham  wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 4 May 2016 07:54:48 +0100 (BST)
> > Julian Bradfield  wrote:
> >
> > > See
> > > http://xkcd.com/1676/
> > > (making sure to look at the mouse-over text)
> >
> > I though kashida (TATWEEL) was a precedent not to be followed. The
> > issue of course, is that chained snakes do not reflow well, just as
> > filler text doesn't.
>
>
> On Wed, 4 May 2016 13:15:08 +0200, Philippe Verdy  wrote:
>
> > Those "snakes" do exist in Arabic for justification purpose (they are
> > formatting controls insertable between pairs of joined letters and
> possibly
> > used as base holders for diacritics).
> >
> > […]
>
>
> On Wed, 4 May 2016 09:59:04 -0300, Leonardo Boiko  wrote:
>
> > 2016-05-04 4:14 GMT-03:00 Shriramana Sharma :
> > > Isn't there some Japanese orthography feature that already does
> > > something like this?
> >
> > […] In fact, most kinds of Japanese calligraphy prize
> > variation in line length, not uniformity. […]
>
>
> On Wed, 04 May 2016 07:29:20 -0700, Doug Ewell  wrote:
>
> > 1F40D FE0F
> >
> > The VS just makes extra, extra sure that it’s emoji.
>
>
> Hmm… I guess the principle of diversity should then
> allow for other long animals too: various caterpillars,
> squirrel running on a branch…
>
> More seriously, if animal pictographs are downgraded
> to mere line-fillers, Iʼm not sure whether the text style
> variation selector U+FE0E would not be a good choice.
>
> Why not tackle it the other way around: standardize
> sequences of U+2012..U+2015, U+2E3A with some of
> the other ~250 variation selectors to make them look
> like extensible vegetal or animal ornaments. Or simply
> chain the VSes with repeated U+002D.
>
> If there were a vote, Iʼd prefer word-break in scripts
> that allow for, in case justification is really required
> (to make a hieratic look); or in scripts that cannot break
> words, as Hebrew, using the letter extension mechanisms.
>
> As of letter spacing, abusing it for justifiction purposes
> is current in some languages but is not semantically neutral
> —TUS recalls—in others that may be very close geographically.
> What helps making a proper layout on one side of the Rhine,
> is yelling on the other.
>
> So yes, then abusing emoji is the lesser evil   :)
>
> Marcel
>
>

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Marcel Schneider]

On Wed, 4 May 2016 08:27:55 +0100, Richard Wordingham  wrote:

> On Wed, 4 May 2016 07:54:48 +0100 (BST)
> Julian Bradfield  wrote:
> 
> > See
> > http://xkcd.com/1676/
> > (making sure to look at the mouse-over text)
> 
> I though kashida (TATWEEL) was a precedent not to be followed. The
> issue of course, is that chained snakes do not reflow well, just as
> filler text doesn't.


On Wed, 4 May 2016 13:15:08 +0200, Philippe Verdy  wrote:

> Those "snakes" do exist in Arabic for justification purpose (they are
> formatting controls insertable between pairs of joined letters and possibly
> used as base holders for diacritics).
> 
> […]


On Wed, 4 May 2016 09:59:04 -0300, Leonardo Boiko  wrote:

> 2016-05-04 4:14 GMT-03:00 Shriramana Sharma :
> > Isn't there some Japanese orthography feature that already does
> > something like this? 
> 
> […] In fact, most kinds of Japanese calligraphy prize
> variation in line length, not uniformity. […]


On Wed, 04 May 2016 07:29:20 -0700, Doug Ewell  wrote:

> 1F40D FE0F
> 
> The VS just makes extra, extra sure that it’s emoji.


Hmm… I guess the principle of diversity should then 
allow for other long animals too: various caterpillars, 
squirrel running on a branch…

More seriously, if animal pictographs are downgraded 
to mere line-fillers, Iʼm not sure whether the text style 
variation selector U+FE0E would not be a good choice.

Why not tackle it the other way around: standardize 
sequences of U+2012..U+2015, U+2E3A with some of 
the other ~250 variation selectors to make them look 
like extensible vegetal or animal ornaments. Or simply 
chain the VSes with repeated U+002D.

If there were a vote, Iʼd prefer word-break in scripts 
that allow for, in case justification is really required 
(to make a hieratic look); or in scripts that cannot break 
words, as Hebrew, using the letter extension mechanisms. 

As of letter spacing, abusing it for justifiction purposes 
is current in some languages but is not semantically neutral
—TUS recalls—in others that may be very close geographically. 
What helps making a proper layout on one side of the Rhine, 
is yelling on the other.

So yes, then abusing emoji is the lesser evil   :)

Marcel

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Doug Ewell]

1F40D FE0F

The VS just makes extra, extra sure that it’s emoji.

--
Doug Ewell | http://ewellic.org | Thornton, CO 

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Leonardo Boiko]

2016-05-04 4:14 GMT-03:00 Shriramana Sharma :
> Isn't there some Japanese orthography feature that already does
> something like this?

Japanese (and Chinese) vertical calligraphy can do arbitrary-length
stretching of lines (like the Arabic kashida under discussion, and
like most cursive scripts in the world, I guess). Notice e.g. the long
lines here: https://www.instagram.com/seiichirou_uemura/ . The
hiragana letter し、 in particular, often becomes a long vertical line.

However, traditionally this is used for æsthetic rhythm, not for
justification.  In fact, most kinds of Japanese calligraphy prize
variation in line length, not uniformity. And when uniformity is
sought (e.g. certain sutras), they don't use stretched lines, but just
fill a grid with non-cursive, block (kaisho) characters.

I'm not aware of similar features for typography. Because the script
doesn't separate words, justification is comparatively simple–you just
break lines mid-word, mostly wherever (with a few restrictions to
avoid hanging punctuation and so on.)

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Philippe Verdy]

Those "snakes" do exist in Arabic for justification purpose (they are
formatting controls insertable between pairs of joined letters and possibly
used as base holders for diacritics).

Otherwise they are just normal "filler" (punctuation-like symbols like
leader dots, otherwise "crap text").

The Arabic tatweel is very smart (better than extending the only spacing
that applies only between words and better than breaking words with
interletter spacing or changing the shape of letters, or packing letters to
remove their normal spacing gap and creating collisions).

Technically such "tatweel" also exist in Latin with its cursive form (with
joined letters), and possibly as well in cursive forms of Greek and
Cyrillic. But they are still not encoded at all (as formatting controls),
even if they could also be used as base holders for some left-side or
right-side diacritics.

2016-05-04 9:07 GMT+02:00 Mark Davis ☕️ :

> Very nice!
>
> Mark
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Julian Bradfield  > wrote:
>
>> See
>> http://xkcd.com/1676/
>> (making sure to look at the mouse-over text)
>>
>> --
>> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
>> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>>
>>
>

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Simon Cozens]

On 04/05/2016 17:07, Mark Davis ☕️ wrote:
> Very nice!

The SILE typesetting engine now implements full support for this new
justification strategy. Please see http://www.sile-typesetter.org/

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Khaled Hosny]

That sounds more like traditional Tibetan justification than kashida:
http://rishida.net/scripts/tibetan/#justification

On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 09:23:04AM +0200, Mark Davis ☕️ wrote:
> Arabic has tatweel/kashida for justification; rather similar in principle.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashida
> 
> Mark
> 
> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Shriramana Sharma  wrote:
> 
> > Isn't there some Japanese orthography feature that already does
> > something like this?
> >
> > --
> > Shriramana Sharma ஶ்ரீரமணஶர்மா श्रीरमणशर्मा
> >

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Richard Wordingham]

On Wed,  4 May 2016 07:54:48 +0100 (BST)
Julian Bradfield  wrote:

> See
> http://xkcd.com/1676/
> (making sure to look at the mouse-over text)

I though kashida (TATWEEL) was a precedent not to be followed.  The
issue of course, is that chained snakes do not reflow well, just as
filler text doesn't. 

Richard.

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Mark Davis ☕️]

Arabic has tatweel/kashida for justification; rather similar in principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashida

Mark

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Shriramana Sharma  wrote:

> Isn't there some Japanese orthography feature that already does
> something like this?
>
> --
> Shriramana Sharma ஶ்ரீரமணஶர்மா श्रीरमणशर्मा
>

RE: non-breaking snakes

[Tex Texin]

Non-breaking snake is English for Kashida right?

-Original Message-
From: Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Julian Bradfield
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 11:55 PM
To: unicode@unicode.org
Subject: non-breaking snakes

See
http://xkcd.com/1676/
(making sure to look at the mouse-over text)

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with 
registration number SC005336.

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Shriramana Sharma]

Isn't there some Japanese orthography feature that already does
something like this?

-- 
Shriramana Sharma ஶ்ரீரமணஶர்மா श्रीरमणशर्मा

Re: non-breaking snakes

[Mark Davis ☕️]

Very nice!

Mark

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Julian Bradfield 
wrote:

> See
> http://xkcd.com/1676/
> (making sure to look at the mouse-over text)
>
> --
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>

non-breaking snakes

[Julian Bradfield]

See
http://xkcd.com/1676/
(making sure to look at the mouse-over text)

-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.