Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

[Alex Tweedly via use-livecode]

On 07/09/2021 23:01, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote:

Hi all.

There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the one part of 
Kevin’s announcement regarding the changes in licensing but nothing that I see 
on the other major part of the announcement — the new features coming in 
LiveCode 10.
Good idea for discussion - but we may be shooting in the dark, until 
either the DP or another sneak peek.

New Syntax in 10
Array Literals


Not sure I fully understand this one yet.
    put { "a": "b", "c":"d" } into tVar
seems clear - and is explained with an equivalent in existing code.

But
 put [1, 2, 3 ] into tVar2
isn't clear to me. If it was in Python it would be a list - but LC 
doesn't have 'lists'.


Is it equivalent to
   put true into tVar2[1]
   put true into tVar2[2]
   put true into tVar2[3]    ??

Or if not, then what is it equivalent to ?

But generally, I like the idea. Though it does just make me want to ask 
for more :-)


Why just constants ?

Why can't I say
    put { myvar: "first", anothervar: tWhatever } into tVar2   ?


Constant Expressions


About time. I trust you can actually do
   constant Kmin=100, kMax=200, kMid=(kmin+kmax)/2


Static Switch Optimization


Yes - good thing.I have a bunch of code (which I might not want to show 
in public), where this will make a significant difference. I was worried 
by the statement that "... recognises cases where all the cases are 
constant", but realised that you can always cover the other cases by 
putting them into a separate switch/if-then-else in the 'default' case.




Constant folding


I confess I assumed that was already there :-)

But I was disappointed to not see my two biggest 'constant' wishes

1. multi-line constants e.g. amongst other ways, Python's

put """line 1

line 2

line 3""" into tVar

2. global constants. Most compiled languages will allow an 'include' 
file which can specify constants, which you can then rely on to be 
defined properly (and the same) everywhere. So that's probably too much 
at odds with LC's model - but could be handled by 'protect' global 
variables (or, I'm sure, another 10 ways that Mark W. could think of).



Tail Expressions


I just don't understand this one, so no comment.


Anyway I am excited to see the first DP which is promised in the next couple of 
weeks.  My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of’ 
in terms of counting.  I say it means around 2 or 3ish.  She says it means 2. 
Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.  So in this 
case I am hoping she is right and I am wrong and we do get the new DP in a 
couple of weeks and not a few weeks. :-)


That sounds like a 'couple' discussion I wouldn't want to get in the 
middle of. Even worse than whether a sign on the freeway/motorway saying 
"xyz next exit" means the immediately coming exit (i.e. 'this exit' or 
'next exit'), or the following one. Caused me no end of trouble when I 
first moved to the US :-)


Alex.

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

[kee nethery via use-livecode]

Still looking for a way to do in-app payments for macOS App Store apps. 
Thanks for the list of all the new stuff.
Kee

> On Sep 7, 2021, at 3:01 PM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>  wrote:

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

[Bernard Devlin via use-livecode]

Hi Martin

I'm interested in the web assembly for HTML5.  I had actually written two
different apps which I would have done as HTML5 but the loading time alone
was just to slow. The increased loading speed alone should now make these
possible as HTML5. There are still a lot of other things that are difficult
to do with the current HTML5 deployment to make it anything like a
fat-client deployment. Still, for my purposes it can't even get off the
ground without the initial load speed improvement.

I am expecting the M1 build to bring about increased performance, but I
have no complaints with the current Rosetta speed on M1 (but the 10x faster
startup time of M1 Macs over Intel Macs could give us some idea of how much
of a speed increase we might see).

I like the array literals idea. That's something I've wanted for so, so
long.  And the constants built from expressions is a nice thing to have.
Having named rather than merely positional parameters for handlers would
also be something I'd like (Python does a few things right).  But these
things are basically syntactic sugar.

With Switch statements I always try to put the options in order of greatest
likelihood first, but that can't always make a difference if conditions
follow a more even distribution. Still, it's one less thing to have to
think about.

But I would hope there are even bigger things coming with version 10 than
these.

Regards, Bernard

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 11:03 PM Martin Koob via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the one
> part of Kevin’s announcement regarding the changes in licensing but nothing
> that I see on the other major part of the announcement — the new features
> coming in LiveCode 10.
>
>
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

[Scott Morrow via use-livecode]

Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
--
Scott Morrow

> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to 
> switch back to a mac...


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

[matthias rebbe via use-livecode]

> Brand New Web Deployment Experience usingWeb Assembly (WASM)
>   - I have no idea what WASM is.  There have always been complaints about 
> web deployment in the past.  Do you think this will make a difference?
> 

https://www.qt.io/qt-examples-for-webassembly 


Overview of supported Browsers and roadmap
https://webassembly.org/roadmap/


See some samples  created with QT in action, you'll need at least Firefox 91 or 
Chrome 90 for this. 
https://www.qt.io/qt-examples-for-webassembly 







___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Standard Plan Pricing Confusion

[Bernard Devlin via use-livecode]

I haven't looked into it as I have nothing to do with education.  But
doesn't the University plan give you all 7 platforms + additional features
for about $950?

https://livecode.com/education-plans/


On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 9:50 PM Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The pricing for the standard plan looks confusing and inconsistent when
> first encountered. It’s also further complicated by the "add on" options.
>
> There are 2 add ons:
> email support
> Pro Package (Device Debugging, code optimization tool, the network layer
> (tsNet library), iOS accessory access, pdf library). The info box on this
> still references the Community and Indy licenses which supposedly don’t
> exist.
>
> Hopefully I have this figured out right. If I’m wrong it could reflect
> poorly on me or the plans ;-)
> Here’s the rounded-off pricing if you just buy deployment options. After
> the first platform you can substitute 1 of the 2 add on options for
> platform in each of these tiers.
>
> 1 platform = $300
> 2 platforms = $500 ($200 more)
> 3 platforms = $900 ($400 more)
> 4 platforms = $1000 ($100 more)
> 5 platforms = $1500 ($500 more)
> 6 platforms = $1800 ($300 more)
> All 7 platforms = $2000 ($200 more)
>
> Here’s the rounded off per platform/options pricing for each tier.
> This looks like it makes slightly more sense than when it’s listed the
> other way.
> 1 platform = $300
> 2 platforms = $250
> 3 platforms = $300
> 4 platforms = $250
> 5 platforms = $300
> 6 platforms = $300
> All 7 platforms + the 2 add ons = $222
>
> This issue was brought up previously by Sean Cole. Jacqueline Landman Gay
> suggested that it might be tied to the popularity of specific platforms.
>  Here’s how she explained it. "The way I figure it, each platform is $300.
> But since many of us build for the two major ones (Mac and Windows) you get
> a $100 discount for that bundle. After that it's $300 each except for
> 4 and 7 platforms, where there's also a discount.” Yes, apparently, but
> why?  The popular desktops/ mobile bundle? Why then are the add ons priced
> the same?  Is there really equivalent value there? Number 7 is obviously
> discounted for a buy everything tier. That’s OK, I guess.
>
> The problem with Jacqueline’s explanation is that it doesn’t matter which
> platforms or add ons you select, the same pricing pattern persists.  I can
> justify different prices for different platform deployments and different
> options, but this inconsistent pattern could be hard to explain to
> prospective users and business accountants to whom we have to justify
> purchases. Jacqueline may be right about the reasons but these are “hidden”
> bundle options based on an assumption of what the user is likely to want.
> It also can make some combinations that are probably much harder to
> justify/explain than others.
>
> While I can come up with some other explanations for this and a case could
> be made that it has a lot of flexibility, I wonder if a more transparent
> pricing/bundling/discount structure might be better.
>
> Any chance we can get some clarification on the rationale behind the
> pricing to help us with our purchasing requests?
>
>
> Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
> Instructional Designer, HSIT
> University at Buffalo
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

LiveCode 10 - what are your thoughts on the new features?

[Martin Koob via use-livecode]

Hi all.

There has been lots of discussion on the list and forums about the one part of 
Kevin’s announcement regarding the changes in licensing but nothing that I see 
on the other major part of the announcement — the new features coming in 
LiveCode 10.

> On Aug 31, 2021, at 12:53 PM, Kevin Miller CEO  wrote:
> 
> The Future
> 
> We do have exciting plans for the future! LiveCode 10 is about to go into the 
> test cycle, with substantial changes and improvements to Web, Media and 
> Camera enhancements, integration of mobile widgets, and some handy new 
> language features. You can read all about this here 
> .


https://livecode.com/livecode-10-sneak-peek/

The major features listed on the page above are:

Brand New Web Deployment Experience usingWeb Assembly (WASM)
- I have no idea what WASM is.  There have always been complaints about 
web deployment in the past.  Do you think this will make a difference?

M1 Architecture Support
- Looking forward to this.  I am chomping on the bit to buy a new 
MacBook Pro with M1 as soon as they come out this fall.  Look forward to giving 
LiveCode 10 a spin on it.

Windows Player Media Foundation &
Windows Camera Media Foundation
- these two features are the ones that I am really waiting for.  My app 
records and plays video using the CameraControl and the Player respectively but 
the Mac version does so in .mp4 and the Windows version records and plays .wmv. 
 I had been researching different methods of converting from one format to the 
other when users shared their video projects over the web.  Then this was 
announced rendering that moot! This is a much better solution.  I am looking 
forward to giving the updated player and camera control a good workout on 
Windows.
-One question I have is whether a player can be part of a Web app with 
the new Web Deployment. To this point I don’t think you could but I have 
wondered if you could control an HTML5 video player elsewhere on the page 
outside of the LiveCode HTML5 web app.  Having video play directly in the Web 
app would be a much cleaner solution. I haven’t looked into this in a long time 
so once LC 10 is out I will do some more research on this.

Improved AcceleratedRendering on Mobile
- iOS and Android will be updated to use OpenGL3ES internally
- I haven’t developed for iOS or Android and don’t  know what OpenGL3ES 
is.  What do all you mobile developers think?

Mobile Widgets by LiveCode Factory
- now acquired by LiveCode Ltd. and will be integrated into LiveCode 10.
- again not currently developing for mobile but I understand getting 
native look, feel and performance has been an oft discussed topic. Hopefully 
this will resolve some of the issues LiveCode developers have had.

New Syntax in 10
Array Literals
Constant Expressions
Static Switch Optimization
Constant folding
Tail Expressions
- I am just reading them over trying to think of how having these might 
affect my code and my app.  Some promise speed improvements others flexibility 
in working with arrays and constants.  Does these make the language more 
complex or easier?

I am interested in what people have to say about these new features, especially 
in the areas I don’t have much experience in.

Anyway I am excited to see the first DP which is promised in the next couple of 
weeks.  My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about the term 'couple of’ 
in terms of counting.  I say it means around 2 or 3ish.  She says it means 2. 
Further she says if you wanted to say 3 or 4 you would say ‘a few’.  So in this 
case I am hoping she is right and I am wrong and we do get the new DP in a 
couple of weeks and not a few weeks. :-)

Martin Koob



___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

[Stephen Barncard via use-livecode]

Welcome back, Andre!

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:56 Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me
> to switch back to a mac...
>
> > On 7 Sep 2021, at 09:00, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought
> this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't
> occur to me that it was just speed.
> >
> > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed
> issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been
> affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that
> I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be
> fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to
> be something platform specific.
> >
> > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm
> whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems
> with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7.
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > On 03/09/2021 03:05, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
> >> Hi Lagi,
> >> I have the LC IDE running on a remote Windows Server with 1 core (2Ghz)
> and
> >> 2GB ram. It struggles at times but is still usable (truly amazingly).
> >> Otherwise, I run it on Windows through Parallels Desktop with VM 8 cores
> >> and 8GB on an 8core 32GB Macbook Pro. Saving a stack takes 15 times
> longer
> >> in Win compared to the same machine in macOS. Other than the slight lag
> and
> >> bugginess of the script editor this is the only slowness I see. Unicode
> >> slows down some procedures but that is not limited to the IDE.
> >> I hope you can work out what is slowing it down to treacle speeds for
> you.
> >> It sounds a bit odd to me.
> >> On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 00:16, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running
> on a
> >>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs like
> >>> treacle.
> >>> <<
> >>>
> >>> As I don't recognize this experience can you put a video of your
> experience
> >>> on the cloud?  I don't run on hardware anything like as beefy as you
> have.
> >>> The only machine I've got where LC is slow is one where Windows itself
> is
> >>> really slow (a 4yo laptop).  On my two Apple machines (M1 and Intel,
> the
> >>> latter is 5yo) it is not "like treacle", neither is it slow on my i5
> >>> Windows machine.
> >>>
> >>> It's a bit hard for LC Ltd to identify and fix something if it's only
> found
> >>> in some odd cases.
> >>>
> >>> Regards, Bernard
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
>  Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install
>  something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in
> the
>  way
>  so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out.
> 
>   You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an
> extension,
>  and by the time they answer
>  you get cheesed off and remove the  program.
> 
>  The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6
> months
>  (whichever comes first).
> 
>  This stops the clever  SOD who decides to keep it running without
> exiting
>  for 6 months but it times out anyway.
>  Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing"
> twice
> >>> so
>  it will last 30 days.
> 
>  This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it
> without
>  rushing.
> 
>  The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal
>  customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps
> those
>  who want to give it a good try.
> 
>  You can also put a  nag screen  at the start of any executable with
> an OK
>  button  link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a
>  brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?).
> 
>  But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running
> >>> on a
>  16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs
> like
>  treacle.
> 
>  If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in
> >>> less
>  than 30 minutes.
> 
>  You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away"
> >>> to
>  schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen.
> 
>  It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost -
> and
>  some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a
>  student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid
> 

Standard Plan Pricing Confusion

[Timothy Bleiler via use-livecode]

The pricing for the standard plan looks confusing and inconsistent when first 
encountered. It’s also further complicated by the "add on" options.

There are 2 add ons:
email support
Pro Package (Device Debugging, code optimization tool, the network layer (tsNet 
library), iOS accessory access, pdf library). The info box on this still 
references the Community and Indy licenses which supposedly don’t exist.

Hopefully I have this figured out right. If I’m wrong it could reflect poorly 
on me or the plans ;-) 
Here’s the rounded-off pricing if you just buy deployment options. After the 
first platform you can substitute 1 of the 2 add on options for platform in 
each of these tiers. 

1 platform = $300
2 platforms = $500 ($200 more)
3 platforms = $900 ($400 more)
4 platforms = $1000 ($100 more)
5 platforms = $1500 ($500 more)
6 platforms = $1800 ($300 more)
All 7 platforms = $2000 ($200 more)

Here’s the rounded off per platform/options pricing for each tier. 
This looks like it makes slightly more sense than when it’s listed the other 
way.
1 platform = $300
2 platforms = $250
3 platforms = $300
4 platforms = $250
5 platforms = $300
6 platforms = $300
All 7 platforms + the 2 add ons = $222

This issue was brought up previously by Sean Cole. Jacqueline Landman Gay 
suggested that it might be tied to the popularity of specific platforms.   
Here’s how she explained it. "The way I figure it, each platform is $300. But 
since many of us build for the two major ones (Mac and Windows) you get a $100 
discount for that bundle. After that it's $300 each except for 
4 and 7 platforms, where there's also a discount.” Yes, apparently, but why?  
The popular desktops/ mobile bundle? Why then are the add ons priced the same?  
Is there really equivalent value there? Number 7 is obviously discounted for a 
buy everything tier. That’s OK, I guess.

The problem with Jacqueline’s explanation is that it doesn’t matter which 
platforms or add ons you select, the same pricing pattern persists.  I can 
justify different prices for different platform deployments and different 
options, but this inconsistent pattern could be hard to explain to prospective 
users and business accountants to whom we have to justify purchases. Jacqueline 
may be right about the reasons but these are “hidden” bundle options based on 
an assumption of what the user is likely to want. It also can make some 
combinations that are probably much harder to justify/explain than others. 

While I can come up with some other explanations for this and a case could be 
made that it has a lot of flexibility, I wonder if a more transparent 
pricing/bundling/discount structure might be better.

Any chance we can get some clarification on the rationale behind the pricing to 
help us with our purchasing requests? 


Tim Bleiler, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer, HSIT
University at Buffalo

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Yes, and this is really disconcerting. Not sure how many Mac vs. PC devs there 
are for LC, but I suspect it's weighed heavily towards Mac. I think in 
retrospect, it may have been better to retain UTF-8 as an option, that is be 
able to select unicode or not in an app. But I suspect that would be a lot of 
bloat in the IDE. 

Bob S


> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:55 , Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to 
> switch back to a mac...
> 
>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 09:00, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought this 
>> might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't occur 
>> to me that it was just speed.
>> 
>> I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed issue 
>> with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been 
>> affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that 
>> I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be 
>> fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to 
>> be something platform specific.
>> 
>> Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm 
>> whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems 
>> with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7.
>> 
>> Ben


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it caused me to 
switch back to a mac...

> On 7 Sep 2021, at 09:00, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought this 
> might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't occur 
> to me that it was just speed.
> 
> I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed issue 
> with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been 
> affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that 
> I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be 
> fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to be 
> something platform specific.
> 
> Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm 
> whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems 
> with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7.
> 
> Ben
> 
> On 03/09/2021 03:05, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode wrote:
>> Hi Lagi,
>> I have the LC IDE running on a remote Windows Server with 1 core (2Ghz) and
>> 2GB ram. It struggles at times but is still usable (truly amazingly).
>> Otherwise, I run it on Windows through Parallels Desktop with VM 8 cores
>> and 8GB on an 8core 32GB Macbook Pro. Saving a stack takes 15 times longer
>> in Win compared to the same machine in macOS. Other than the slight lag and
>> bugginess of the script editor this is the only slowness I see. Unicode
>> slows down some procedures but that is not limited to the IDE.
>> I hope you can work out what is slowing it down to treacle speeds for you.
>> It sounds a bit odd to me.
>> On Fri, 3 Sept 2021 at 00:16, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running on a
>>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs like
>>> treacle.
>>> <<
>>> 
>>> As I don't recognize this experience can you put a video of your experience
>>> on the cloud?  I don't run on hardware anything like as beefy as you have.
>>> The only machine I've got where LC is slow is one where Windows itself is
>>> really slow (a 4yo laptop).  On my two Apple machines (M1 and Intel, the
>>> latter is 5yo) it is not "like treacle", neither is it slow on my i5
>>> Windows machine.
>>> 
>>> It's a bit hard for LC Ltd to identify and fix something if it's only found
>>> in some odd cases.
>>> 
>>> Regards, Bernard
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
 Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install
 something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the
 way
 so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out.
 
  You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension,
 and by the time they answer
 you get cheesed off and remove the  program.
 
 The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months
 (whichever comes first).
 
 This stops the clever  SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting
 for 6 months but it times out anyway.
 Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice
>>> so
 it will last 30 days.
 
 This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without
 rushing.
 
 The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal
 customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those
 who want to give it a good try.
 
 You can also put a  nag screen  at the start of any executable with an OK
 button  link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a
 brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?).
 
 But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running
>>> on a
 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs like
 treacle.
 
 If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in
>>> less
 than 30 minutes.
 
 You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away"
>>> to
 schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen.
 
 It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and
 some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a
 student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid
>>> idea
 of the lot so far)
 
 
 Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky,
 stupid and not workable suggestions?.
 
 Lagi
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
 use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
> We *are* 

Re: LiveCode community edition is gone

[kee nethery via use-livecode]

> On Sep 2, 2021, at 1:48 PM, Mark Smith via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> HI Kee,
> 
> You do know the schools license gives you complete access to all 7 platforms 
> and permanent standalones for $25 a seat per year and the apps are 
> non-expiring?

Did not know that. 
Kee



___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

I hv never had slowdowns with the IDE or else in Windows 10.
But my system has 32 Gb internal RAM and I use only NVMe. Fastest i7 too. No 
problems.
Its all about hardware when u develop software.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Erik Beugelaar

From: use-livecode  on behalf of Bernard 
Devlin via use-livecode 
Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2021 7:08:09 PM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Cc: Bernard Devlin 
Subject: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Without knowing anything other than "the IDE is like treacle"  I loaded
various stacks in Windows to see what the complaint could possibly be about.
8 seconds for IDE to start - no treacle on opening stacks
8 seconds to open Dictionary - no treacle on searching Dictionary (given
it's loading 1000 pages of lightning-fast searchable text, I think 8
seconds isn't too bad).  I generally open it once and don't shut it until I
close LC.

So I created a new stack and pasted 8000 lines of text into the Script
Editor.  Typing in the Editor then became treacley (but not on OS X).
Switching off Edit/Options/live errors removed any speed degradation on
typing.  Assuming I've correctly identified where the issue is, the issue
is not the IDE, the issue is doing something specific with large scripts
inside the Script Editor.  That may well be the issue that Mark Waddingham
was discussing about sorting text.  The Script editor doesn't slow down
with 100s of lines.

As for general weirdness with Windows. When Windows "anti-virus" scam kicks
in every day, my laptop stops working (even trying to switch between apps
is treacley).  This is something MS have made almost impossible to disable
(I haven't found a way), and I can't set the priority low. I just have to
leave the laptop for an hour and go to do something else.  Someone trying
to save a file during this scan is likely to experience slow file saves.
I've also seen Windows Update taking large amounts of RAM.  These things
are less noticeable on my Windows desktop.

Regards, Bernard

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 5:15 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> It's worse than the unicode text issue. Saving stacks is from my setup 7
> to 8 times slower in Windows than on a Mac, and I have tried numerous
> Windows configurations from bare metal to VMWare servers running on a
> robust host. In discussions in the past, it seems there isn't a lot
> Livecode can do about it. The issues are with Windows itself. At least that
> was the upshot of the discussions.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Sep 3, 2021, at 06:56 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought
> this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't
> occur to me that it was just speed.
> >
> > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed
> issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been
> affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that
> I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be
> fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to
> be something platform specific.
> >
> > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm
> whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems
> with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7.
> >
> > Ben
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

[Bernard Devlin via use-livecode]

Without knowing anything other than "the IDE is like treacle"  I loaded
various stacks in Windows to see what the complaint could possibly be about.
8 seconds for IDE to start - no treacle on opening stacks
8 seconds to open Dictionary - no treacle on searching Dictionary (given
it's loading 1000 pages of lightning-fast searchable text, I think 8
seconds isn't too bad).  I generally open it once and don't shut it until I
close LC.

So I created a new stack and pasted 8000 lines of text into the Script
Editor.  Typing in the Editor then became treacley (but not on OS X).
Switching off Edit/Options/live errors removed any speed degradation on
typing.  Assuming I've correctly identified where the issue is, the issue
is not the IDE, the issue is doing something specific with large scripts
inside the Script Editor.  That may well be the issue that Mark Waddingham
was discussing about sorting text.  The Script editor doesn't slow down
with 100s of lines.

As for general weirdness with Windows. When Windows "anti-virus" scam kicks
in every day, my laptop stops working (even trying to switch between apps
is treacley).  This is something MS have made almost impossible to disable
(I haven't found a way), and I can't set the priority low. I just have to
leave the laptop for an hour and go to do something else.  Someone trying
to save a file during this scan is likely to experience slow file saves.
I've also seen Windows Update taking large amounts of RAM.  These things
are less noticeable on my Windows desktop.

Regards, Bernard

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 5:15 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> It's worse than the unicode text issue. Saving stacks is from my setup 7
> to 8 times slower in Windows than on a Mac, and I have tried numerous
> Windows configurations from bare metal to VMWare servers running on a
> robust host. In discussions in the past, it seems there isn't a lot
> Livecode can do about it. The issues are with Windows itself. At least that
> was the upshot of the discussions.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Sep 3, 2021, at 06:56 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought
> this might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't
> occur to me that it was just speed.
> >
> > I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed
> issue with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been
> affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that
> I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be
> fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to
> be something platform specific.
> >
> > Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm
> whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems
> with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7.
> >
> > Ben
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Two words: Unicode. 

Bob S


> On Sep 2, 2021, at 15:20 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sorry it's worse than I thought.It's 10th generation with 4 cores and 8
> logical processors.
> 
> Appleworks was blazingly fast on my 64K 1Mhz Apple 2  and so was Borland
> Turbo Pascal on my Microsoft Z80 card on said machine - software is going
> backwards speed wise.
> 
> Lagi
> 
> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 23:00, Tom Glod via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> Lagi,
>> 
>> I wrote to Kevin earlier and gave the exact same advice. those exact 2
>> points needing to be addressed.
>> 
>> Give long trial, fix the most obvious IDE issues ASAP.
>> 
>> Without those two things how is any new developer going to join the
>> platform?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 5:34 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Trials of 14 days or even 30 days are a waste of time. I can install
>>> something and use it for a couple of days - then life / work gets in the
>>> way
>>> so It sits on the computer for 31 days and then times out.
>>> 
>>> You then have to waste your time and the companies to get an extension,
>>> and by the time they answer
>>> you get cheesed off and remove the  program.
>>> 
>>> The BEST trial is the one that lasts for 30 actual executions or 6 months
>>> (whichever comes first).
>>> 
>>> This stops the clever  SOD who decides to keep it running without exiting
>>> for 6 months but it times out anyway.
>>> Even better if he keeps it on for 2 days it counts as "executing" twice
>> so
>>> it will last 30 days.
>>> 
>>> This means I have 30 days over a 6 month period to really test it without
>>> rushing.
>>> 
>>> The people who would game the system are the people who won't be loyal
>>> customer anyway, so not giving a worthwhile trial period handicaps those
>>> who want to give it a good try.
>>> 
>>> You can also put a  nag screen  at the start of any executable with an OK
>>> button  link to a special discounted price - free marketing (what a
>>> brilliant Idea, why didn't I think of it?).
>>> 
>>> But the best way of selling it is to FIX the bloody IDE - I am running
>> on a
>>> 16G 1 year Old 8th Generation CoreI7  processor and it  STILL runs like
>>> treacle.
>>> 
>>> If I downloaded it today as a new person it would be off my machine in
>> less
>>> than 30 minutes.
>>> 
>>> You could also use this as your "marketing" system by "giving it away"
>> to
>>> schools for nothing and without the trial period but the nag screen.
>>> 
>>> It can then be used by the students to learn programming at no cost - and
>>> some of the students parent might pony up for a paid for version at a
>>> student price (with no expiring standalones of cours - the most stupid
>> idea
>>> of the lot so far)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Anyway Kevin, have I/we wastedour time again putting out these cranky,
>>> stupid and not workable suggestions?.
>>> 
>>> Lagi
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 2 Sept 2021 at 15:55, Kevin Miller via use-livecode <
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>>> 
 We *are* considering the length of the trial actively, we may well
>> give a
 longer trial a shot at some point.
 
 Kind regards,
 
 Kevin
 
 Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
 LiveCode: Develop Yourself
 
 On 02/09/2021, 15:51, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola via
 use-livecode" >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
True, true.
 
There could be a small group of programmers that pass a stack
>> around
 but you would not be able to convince/teach a civilian to install a
 programming IDE and explain how to run the stack along with any other
 supporting files, SW or plug-ins... Mobile would be a non-starter. I
>>> would
 not dismiss this out-of-hand. A 90 day free IDE could also be an
>> option.
 
Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
 
 
-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com]
>> On
 Behalf Of Kevin Miller via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2021 10:31 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Kevin Miller; Michael Kristensen
Subject: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition
 
Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Unfortunately with a free
 non-app building version, everyone who needs to run an app can just
 download that.
 
Kind regards,
 
Kevin
 
Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself
 
On 02/09/2021, 14:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Michael
>> Kristensen
 via use-livecode" >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
 
Hi there
 
I suggest that there could be a Non-Appbuilding 

Re: Text encoding: summary of results and times.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

This makes sense to me (I think) because if I am not mistaken, UTF16 is 
Unicode, and UTF8 is simple ASCII. The slowdown from 6.7 to 7.0 was precicely 
the support for Unicode text. Someone will correct me if I am wrong about this. 
As a hobbyist, I try and stay away from localization issues. But I am 
interested in the idea that all text incoming should be text decoded and 
outgoing the inverse. (Did I get that right??) 

Bob S


> On Sep 3, 2021, at 17:29 , Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I went back and re-did the tests, checking on the results.
> 
> The file *is* UTF8, so I need to textDecode() it; if I don't, the result are 
> simply wrong, and so the times are irrelevant.
> 
> 1. Once it has been textDecoded(), i.e. is in internal format, and I run my 
> algorithm it gets the correct results, taking 115.1 seconds.
> 
> 2. BUT, if just before the algorithm is run, I do a textEncode(tStr, "UTF8") 
> , it gets the correct results (identical to the above), but in only 3.3 
> seconds.
> 
> The code, in a zip file containing the test stack, SpellCheck Library, and 
> the 'bible' and "war" sample textfiles, can be downloaded from
> 
> https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/SpellLib.gz
> 
> if anyone wants to look at it.
> 
> Alex.
> 
> 
> 
> On 03/09/2021 13:38, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>> On 03/09/2021 11:07, David V Glasgow via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>>> Alex states that put textEncode(tWHoleText, "UTF8") into tWholeText speeds 
>>> replace up, but David B says LC internal format is UTF16.  Doesn’t the 8 vs 
>>> 16 difference matter?  Or matters less than other encodings?
>> 
>> I would regard that timing comparison with much suspicion. I was 
>> textEncoding() it inappropriately - I had just read it in from a file, so I 
>> *should* have been textDecoding() it. Therefore it is unclear whether the 
>> times I was seeing then are meaningful.
>> 
>> Alex.
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

It's worse than the unicode text issue. Saving stacks is from my setup 7 to 8 
times slower in Windows than on a Mac, and I have tried numerous Windows 
configurations from bare metal to VMWare servers running on a robust host. In 
discussions in the past, it seems there isn't a lot Livecode can do about it. 
The issues are with Windows itself. At least that was the upshot of the 
discussions. 

Bob S


> On Sep 3, 2021, at 06:56 , Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was wondering this too: when Lagi mentioned 'fix the IDE' I thought this 
> might be a reference to some of a number of usabiity snags - it didn't occur 
> to me that it was just speed.
> 
> I develop on a nine-year old MacBook and have never noticed a speed issue 
> with the IDE. I wonder if it's possible that the Windows IDE has been 
> affected by the same issue to do with manipulating quantities of text that 
> I've been talking about on the list, which Mark W has suggested might be 
> fixed in a release very shortly? (Seems unlikely!) But definitely seems to be 
> something platform specific.
> 
> Lagi, if you're still able to access a 6.7 installer, could you confirm 
> whether the IDE under 6.7 has the same problem on your set up? The problems 
> with speed on Windows that I'm seeing came in after 6.7.
> 
> Ben


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

[Heather Laine via use-livecode]

Folks,

Thank you for all your input on this subject. I think everyone has now had an 
opportunity to express opinions, discuss, and understand the changes. As Kevin 
has said previously, if you have constructive ideas on how to improve our new 
model, please do send them to him direct. Naturally people here have strong 
feelings about LiveCode and the direction it should take in the future. I would 
beg that we remain polite, helpful and constructive in expressing such 
opinions. 

I think everything that needs to be said has now been said. I believe it is now 
time to return to the purpose of this list, supporting each other in using 
LiveCode. 

Warmest regards to all,

Heather

Your friendly local listmom.

Heather Laine
Customer Services Manager
LiveCode Ltd
www.livecode.com



> On 7 Sep 2021, at 08:33, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:13 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Another company's software I used for visual Foxpro and Delphi over the
>> years was
>> 
>> https://www.chilkatsoft.com/
>> 
>> Look at all the languages they support and livecode isn't on there [...]
>> VB.NET, VB6, VBScript, Xbase++, xHarbour, Xojo
>> 
>> The question is why Livecode isn't there?
>> 
>> Lagi
>> 
> 
> The question is: have YOU lobbied chilkat to build an interface for
> Livecode?  I did. I got no reply.
> 
> But when I bought my chilkat license (some years before I lobbied them)
> something went wrong with the payment (my bank cancelled the payment as
> "suspicious").  I got the vilest email from a company I've ever had,
> accusing me of fraud and telling me how the developer would get his own
> back.  His response is seared into my memory (I excused his awful behaviour
> by telling myself "hmm he must have had a significant number of people
> ripping him off with this software"). Despite his vile email, I arranged
> for payment with a different credit card. But when I didn't get a response
> from him re Livecode I decided I'd been too nice in excusing his bad
> behaviour.  By contrast, every email I've ever sent to LC Ltd has resulted
> in a prompt and courteous reply.
> 
> Perhaps if you spent as much time lobbying Chilkat as you spend denigrating
> LC Ltd you might find LC among the software supported by Chilkat?  I doubt
> the developer of Chilkat would allow you on his forum to repeatedly
> denigrate him and his software, criticising his company for supporting
> Filemaker than implementing something you want.
> 
> Once again, if "the opensource community", supposedly "the largest
> demographic", are not at least using their time to lobby e.g. Chilkat to
> provide a Livecode interface, then are they beneficial or are they just a
> drain?  To date the only Livecode user we know who spent time to lobby
> Chilkat is also one of those who is not a free-loader but one who has been
> a license-payer for decades.  What are the scores/hundreds of freeloaders
> doing with their time?
> 
> Regards, Bernard
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition

[Bernard Devlin via use-livecode]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:13 AM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> Another company's software I used for visual Foxpro and Delphi over the
> years was
>
> https://www.chilkatsoft.com/
>
> Look at all the languages they support and livecode isn't on there [...]
> VB.NET, VB6, VBScript, Xbase++, xHarbour, Xojo
>
> The question is why Livecode isn't there?
>
> Lagi
>

The question is: have YOU lobbied chilkat to build an interface for
Livecode?  I did. I got no reply.

But when I bought my chilkat license (some years before I lobbied them)
something went wrong with the payment (my bank cancelled the payment as
"suspicious").  I got the vilest email from a company I've ever had,
accusing me of fraud and telling me how the developer would get his own
back.  His response is seared into my memory (I excused his awful behaviour
by telling myself "hmm he must have had a significant number of people
ripping him off with this software"). Despite his vile email, I arranged
for payment with a different credit card. But when I didn't get a response
from him re Livecode I decided I'd been too nice in excusing his bad
behaviour.  By contrast, every email I've ever sent to LC Ltd has resulted
in a prompt and courteous reply.

Perhaps if you spent as much time lobbying Chilkat as you spend denigrating
LC Ltd you might find LC among the software supported by Chilkat?  I doubt
the developer of Chilkat would allow you on his forum to repeatedly
denigrate him and his software, criticising his company for supporting
Filemaker than implementing something you want.

Once again, if "the opensource community", supposedly "the largest
demographic", are not at least using their time to lobby e.g. Chilkat to
provide a Livecode interface, then are they beneficial or are they just a
drain?  To date the only Livecode user we know who spent time to lobby
Chilkat is also one of those who is not a free-loader but one who has been
a license-payer for decades.  What are the scores/hundreds of freeloaders
doing with their time?

Regards, Bernard
___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode