Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
The efficiency of the PC (oops! er, Mac) is practically without precedent since the days of the first chipped-flint hand axe, so it is hard to get a handle on what something like Revolution is worth. It feels to me that it is worth at least as much as the modest computer on which I run it. Together, the package can be had for under a grand and - given talent and luck - can be used to support a family. In the old days, a milk cow was the comparable capital investment, today perhaps a studio-quality musical instrument. I can't afford the MacroMedia packages, but I think they are more than worth it for someone like my son-in-law, who makes a very good living with them. Revolution is the Japanese motorcycle of development tools. I look out my window at the guys in pickup trucks trying to make a living plowing snow and pounding nails. A thousand bucks to set up your own contracting business? You gotta be kidding! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
From my reading of what Frank wrote it wasn't a case of charging on a delivery basis but allowing a cheaper entry to DreamCard, one that didn't allow delivery. ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version This to me would be like the 'Extended' evaluation mentioned for RealBasic, but without the hassle of applying for an extension, and no need to actually monitoring such extendsions. Get a free 30 day trial, buy a $20 use for personal use as long as you like, or start deploying to others for as little as $99. I am a hobbiest and from my perspective I am thankful Runrev are trying to cater to both ends of the market. I have been critical of Runrev's pricing strategy before and have not agreed with it, but they seem to be doing a good job because I have paid for license renewals over the years and have never let my license lapse. I must stress though that I have done so in small steps, and to me this is the key to Runrev extracting more and more money out of me. I started out free, went to Express, then DreamCard, and now Studio, which I have renewed. If Rev was ala ParcSystem, Enterprise option only, they'd have none of my money. They are currently extracting more money out of me than a Digitalk strategy because I have been basically evaluating Rev for the last 4 years, and when I've discovered a 'new' feature that I'd like to take advantage of, but can't because it is in a 'higher' edition, I've eventually concluded that I need to forked over the money. As far as Digitalk vs ParcPlace Systems, my quick Google search came up with: *ParcPlace-Digitalk Merger into ObjectShare* ParcPlace and Digitalk merge creating ObjectShare. Company implodes soon after. This appears to have occurred some time around 1984, although the time line didn't seem to clear. Now I have no clue, but maybe the problem was that Digitalk was too focused on the cheap end of the market and ParcPlace on the professional end of the market and the time came when each market was too small for either to survive. By the time they realized they needed to broaden their horizons, ie create a path for a hobbiest to get into smallTalk, then advance to an intermeiate user, and then possibly on to a professional, it was too late. I'm wondering if Dan has a feel for how many people got into scripting because of the FREE HyperCard that came with your Mac back in the late 80's. Sure you eventually had to buy the later editions (2.1 was free if I can remember, but after that if you wanted to create stacks you needed to buy the Developer Tool - about U$120 I think). I still remember the MUG I belonged too suddenly sending out floppies with public domain stacks. Then it was multiple floppies. There were stacks everywhere. I am still amazed at how many HyperCard refugees I see seeking a new life here. I thought I was slow at coming to grips with the fact that HyperCard is dead, but obviously some are still applying CPR;-) How many people got hooked on the Free HyperCard, discovered that they could do something useful with it, and then convinced themselves that they needed to buy the Developer Pack so they could take advantage of the larger feature set of the later editions. How many people made a living out of HyperCard based on their free introduction (not a 30 day trial, but unlimited use free). To conclude, if Runrev doesn't want to end up like Digitalk or ParcSystem then they obviously need a continually growing user base. To do that you can either convert them (professionals who are using a different IDE), create them (hobbiest, intermediate, professional), or better yet, do both. I tend towards the 'do both'. An expanded user base would have disadvantages, like I'd never be able to read all the posts on this list, but on the other hand I am occasionally concerned that this list appears to be a '3 ringed circus' - depending on the problem I can usually guess who will provide an answer. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Graphic Design Tools
on Fri, 25 Nov 2005 Frank R wrote: Anyone know what tool they use for graphic design... I would certainly *hope* people are aware of what tool(s) they use... ...and if not, anyone have any good suggestions for inexpensive, easy graphic design tools? Me, I use Photoshop. Wonderful toolbox. Easy? Yes -- you can start out just noodling around like it was a color version of MacPaint. And when you get beyond that point, Photoshop is right there with you, providing more tools and functions. Inexpensive? Perhaps. The full Photoshop application isn't, particularly (Adobe list price: USD $600), but Adobe also makes a junior grade version of the app -- Photoshop Elements -- which might well be able to do everything you need, and will only set you back USD $100 if you buy it from Adobe. In both cases, you can find significantly discounted copies (particularly if you don't need the latest-and-greatest version); a good place to start looking would be Google's Froogle shopping service. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Near completion of Color Pattern Toolkit: IDE, engine, and font problems (part two)
I thought it might be the issue. I stand corrected. Have you tried destroying the graphic stuff and recreating it? Doing garbage collection of sorts? Delete local arrays? cheers Xavier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wilhelm Sanke Sent: Friday, 25 November, 2005 22:54 To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: RE: Near completion of Color Pattern Toolkit: IDE, engine, and font problems (part two) Xavier, I just followed your suggestion to try to use graphics instead of fields - something I had also experimented with some time ago. I substituted the 2700 fields of test stack ScanTest2700 with graphics (and again want to mention that my present toolkit stack contains only *one* field now containing color information) The result for three passes with the scan button: Stack with graphics 2371, 7930, and 13565 milliseconds. Stack with fields 2667, 7611, 13109 milliseconds. I would say there are no statistically significant differences between the two stacks (we would have to continue to get a possible significance on the basis of more data). Cheers, Wilhelm http://www.sanke.org/MetaMedia ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I didn't mean charging per-copy distribution fees. I completely agree those schemes are not well received. All I meant was: - 0 to develop inside the IDE, without the ability to deploy anything - X to deploy anything, where X is the same number whether you deploy 1 or a million apps, to one customer or a million customers. This type of Learning Edition pricing is actually common - and well received. Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Not one major development tool has ever succeeded charging for runtime delivery. Not one. You buy a C++ compiler, you don't pay the compiler maker for each copy of your app. Companies that have tried runtime royalty deals over the years -- and there have been many, with a staggering array of ideas for the best way to structure the fees -- have abandoned their plan or gone out of business or both. And with so many free (open source and otherwise) compilers and IDEs out there, it would be suicide for anyone to try to charge per-copy distribution fees in today's market. On Nov 25, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Frank R wrote: But, the door opens to Much Greater revenue when you have scenarios like - 0$ to use the IDE idefinitely, and $X when you deploy your applications. You catch more long term fish that way. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Kay - well said - and, yes, you were the only one who Got the pricing I was referring to with: ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version Kay C Lan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From my reading of what Frank wrote it wasn't a case of charging on a delivery basis but allowing a cheaper entry to DreamCard, one that didn't allow delivery. ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version This to me would be like the 'Extended' evaluation mentioned for RealBasic, but without the hassle of applying for an extension, and no need to actually monitoring such extendsions. Get a free 30 day trial, buy a $20 use for personal use as long as you like, or start deploying to others for as little as $99. I am a hobbiest and from my perspective I am thankful Runrev are trying to cater to both ends of the market. I have been critical of Runrev's pricing strategy before and have not agreed with it, but they seem to be doing a good job because I have paid for license renewals over the years and have never let my license lapse. I must stress though that I have done so in small steps, and to me this is the key to Runrev extracting more and more money out of me. I started out free, went to Express, then DreamCard, and now Studio, which I have renewed. If Rev was ala ParcSystem, Enterprise option only, they'd have none of my money. They are currently extracting more money out of me than a Digitalk strategy because I have been basically evaluating Rev for the last 4 years, and when I've discovered a 'new' feature that I'd like to take advantage of, but can't because it is in a 'higher' edition, I've eventually concluded that I need to forked over the money. As far as Digitalk vs ParcPlace Systems, my quick Google search came up with: *ParcPlace-Digitalk Merger into ObjectShare* ParcPlace and Digitalk merge creating ObjectShare. Company implodes soon after. This appears to have occurred some time around 1984, although the time line didn't seem to clear. Now I have no clue, but maybe the problem was that Digitalk was too focused on the cheap end of the market and ParcPlace on the professional end of the market and the time came when each market was too small for either to survive. By the time they realized they needed to broaden their horizons, ie create a path for a hobbiest to get into smallTalk, then advance to an intermeiate user, and then possibly on to a professional, it was too late. I'm wondering if Dan has a feel for how many people got into scripting because of the FREE HyperCard that came with your Mac back in the late 80's. Sure you eventually had to buy the later editions (2.1 was free if I can remember, but after that if you wanted to create stacks you needed to buy the Developer Tool - about U$120 I think). I still remember the MUG I belonged too suddenly sending out floppies with public domain stacks. Then it was multiple floppies. There were stacks everywhere. I am still amazed at how many HyperCard refugees I see seeking a new life here. I thought I was slow at coming to grips with the fact that HyperCard is dead, but obviously some are still applying CPR;-) How many people got hooked on the Free HyperCard, discovered that they could do something useful with it, and then convinced themselves that they needed to buy the Developer Pack so they could take advantage of the larger feature set of the later editions. How many people made a living out of HyperCard based on their free introduction (not a 30 day trial, but unlimited use free). To conclude, if Runrev doesn't want to end up like Digitalk or ParcSystem then they obviously need a continually growing user base. To do that you can either convert them (professionals who are using a different IDE), create them (hobbiest, intermediate, professional), or better yet, do both. I tend towards the 'do both'. An expanded user base would have disadvantages, like I'd never be able to read all the posts on this list, but on the other hand I am occasionally concerned that this list appears to be a '3 ringed circus' - depending on the problem I can usually guess who will provide an answer. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Coker wrote: Revolution already *is* that later version with the advanced features. ;) I think most of the users consider Revolution to be Enterprise quality and is up to virtually any task that you can throw in it's direction. I know I do. Quick research: DreamCard: United States Dollars = 99.00 USD United Kingdom Pounds = 57.71 GBP Revolution: United States Dollars = 299.00 USD United Kingdom Pounds = 174.29 GBP That's not quite the actual pricing RunRev use. (I think you calculated the UK - GBP prices by currency conversion - obvious but not correct :-). The pricing is in fact: Dreamcard in the US: USD 99 rest of the world : GBP 69 or local equivalent Rev Studio in the US : USD 299 rest of the world : GBP 199 or local equivalent Not a huge difference today (though it was a bigger difference a year ago when the exchange rate was over 1.9) - but worth explaining for the sake of those who've just bought at the higher, actual price. For what it's worth (i.e. nothing) I think Rev's pricing is quite low - the only thing I think is too expensive is the per-platform add-on for Studio. I'd like to see it cost the same as a Dreamcard license. I can't see the support etc. costs for a second platform being high enough to require a cost of 2/3 of the initial cost. And a more aggressive price for additional platforms would make it unnecessary to consider using Studio on your main platform and Dreamcard on any secondary platform. -- Alex Tweedly http://www.tweedly.net -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 25/11/2005 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Scope Problem on Standalones
I have an application that is comprised on a number of stacks. The top level stack is built into a Standalone and it calls other stacks (.rev files) via start using and go stack commands. When in the IDE the folder stucture is like this: BaseFolder/StartUp.rev -- just contains a splash screen BaseFolder/Runtime/Stacks/StackA.rev BaseFolder/Runtime/Stacks/StackB.rev BaseFolder/Runtime/Stacks/StackC.rev StartUp.rev figures out the correct path (by using the filename of this stack property) and does a goto StackA.rev. StackA in turn does a go to StackB.rev. This all works fine under the IDE. When runnig as a standalone the folder structure is like this: MacOSX/myApp.app -- bundle MacOSX/myApp.app/Contents/MacOS/MyApp (real applicaiton) MacOSX/myApp.app/Contents/MacOS/Runtime/Stacks/StackA.rev MacOSX/myApp.app/Contents/MacOS/Runtime/Stacks/StackB.rev MacOSX/myApp.app/Contents/MacOS/Runtime/Stacks/StackC.rev I can't see why your soution doesn't work, but here is what I do in similar circumstances: In the preOpenStack handler on card 1 of stack StackA: on preOpenStack put applicationFolder(the short name of this stack) into tFolder set the defaultfolder to tFolder start using stack StackA end preOpenStack function applicationFolder pStack if pStack is empty then put the short name of this stack into pStack put the effective filename of stack pStack into tFull put empty into tFolder set the itemdel to / repeat for each item i in tFull if i contains .app or i contains .rev then exit repeat put i / after tFolder end repeat return tFolder end applicationFolder This function is stripped down to work only with OS X. If you want a cross-platform equivalent, let me know. HTH, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Scope Problem on Standalones
David- Friday, November 25, 2005, 5:34:28 AM, you wrote: set itemDelimiter to :/ I'm surprised this works at all... -- As I said, It was just typeo, the real script compiles and works fine in the IDE. All the Best Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Before I start my complaint about pricing, let me at least say that I applaud the company for having a $99 price point for Dreamcard. It at least opens the doors for more people to explore this intriguing tool. On the other hand, the pricing needs to go even further. In my 20 years in the world of software, I can't tell you how many companies I have observed shoot themselves in the foot by having a great product but pricing it out of reach for the masses. The pricing that has Built companies has been - price it low to draw people in, get the revenue later with advanced features and with deployment licensing costs. I would rather they charged twice as much but fixed all remaining IDE bugs and produce fixes quickly for other bugs when they come up. Turbo Pascal was sold in huge quantities because it was a $49 product that many could afford. The same was true with the Initial pricing of many MS products. This company should offer DreamCard free - but, for free, Without the ability to deploy an app. The apps could only be run inside the IDE. This would give more people more than 30 days to race through the product, and it would defer collecting revenue until someone actually baked something of Value - that could be sold. At that point, the programmer has an easy time paying the bucks for a development license. I'm going to finish evaluating this, and I'm going to start my project, but I won't be done in 30 days, and my journey will probably end there. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't afford to lay out for tools anymore until I Know I'm going to get across the finish line with something of value to sell. This product needs to shoot for Volume. That means - further aggressive pricing. Before they do that they need to get all the bugs out of it, IMO, if they went for massive volume now, the product would not get a very good reception. All the Best Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I'm a high school teacher and support my family single-income-style. I pay for my software/hardware out of pocket [not even tax credit.] I'm also the world's cheapest man; to wit we have had marital difficulties because I will not let love stand in the way of conserving cash. The background is to let you know you can buy this software and sleep well because the world's cheapest man did it without batting an eye. He even upgraded once or twice without wincing [but he did wait until the last minute]. Now the world's cheapest man can justify his extravagence to his wife because one or two of his creations have brought in enough cash to compensate it. But the real reason you will put that money down is because this product will deliver what you need in the least painful way. Don't need to declare variables as strings or integers. Don't need to use all those dots. You can change the code ON THE FLY and ON ANY PLATFORM. Most of all, the software thinks like a human thinks. e.g. Want the time of day? - put the time Want the word your user has clicked? - put the clicktext Want the first word that pops into my head? - put the first word in TomsHead. [assuming it's a valid container!] Want to know what I think? -ask What do you think with Rev's a great buy. ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Oh, Happy Day! Judy On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Ken Ray wrote: This was the same philosophy espoused by Scott Raney, when he was selling MetaCard for $999 and nothing else... of course, that was until RunRev picked it up... :-) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Where do I put icons?
I've got a bunch of 64 x 64 icons (myIcon.ico) that I need in a project. Where to I put them so they are accessible like the RR standard icons? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Where do I put icons?
Hi Preston, I've got a bunch of 64 x 64 icons (myIcon.ico) that I need in a project. Where to I put them so they are accessible like the RR standard icons? sorry, but Rev does not support the ICO format. You will have to convert them to GIF, PNG or JPG format to be able to use them. The term icon in Rev might be a bit misleading since it only means images (of any size!) displayed inside of buttons :-) Regards Klaus Major [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.major-k.de ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
The Old Chestnut - Again
So, at least part of my Beef about the end of the 'FREE' 10-lines-of-code may be partly justified . . . see Frank R's points/moans. I also understand the arguments put forward by Richard Gaskin and Co. I also know that working with the old RR 2 'Free' version can get extremely frustrating - and the only way out of this (short of giving up) is to acquire a liceense. Might it not be an idea to break RR up into modules: not as daft as it seems - 1. A really extremely basic version of RR for FREE . . . 2. Add on modules at various prices based on how valuable their perceived capabilities are. The BASIC FREE version could be crippled to the old 10-line setting, The first module could be one that removes that limitation, Other modules would allow PRINTING, SOUND, NETWORKING, INTERNET ACCESS, DATABASE INTERFACING and so on . . . For instance, in my own case - I need SOUND and PRINTING for the tyoe of work I concentrate on; but I am a modest sort of chap making modest sums. But the Princes of the Church and Co. would pay more for more advanced capabilities that their work required. sincerely, Richmond __ See Mathewson's software at: http://members.maclaunch.com/richmond/default.html ___ --- The Think Different Store http://www.thinkdifferentstore.com/ For All Your Mac Gear --- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:12 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Personally, I think Rev is priced too low. Sh... don't talk that too loud, I am trying to sum some money to buy a new license and pounds are expensive ;-) Cheers andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years
Excellent suggestions Sarah. Your right, I need to start simple and work toward the complex. Between reading about all of the exciting stuff people are doing with Rev and my own overactive imaginations its difficult to buckle down and start with Hello World : ) Thanks Todd -- Todd Higgins [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:28 AM, Sarah Reichelt wrote: With no formal programming experience and no Hypercard background its been slow going for me. As a technologist I am very comfortable using computers, I can make servers bend to my will for most functions, but when it comes to creating something from nothing I am stifled. I feel like I cannot get off the ground floor with anything - Applescript, PERL, bash, Revolution, and I think the reason is because I'm rushing it. My advice would be to find a SIMPLE project that you can see some value in but that is not too demanding. Write it and then start to improve it. Some people like to work by laying out the interface completely before starting any scripting. I tend to work by adding a few controls, scripting them and then adding more. It just depends which makes you feel more comfortable. For example, a lot of people start with a simple address book. Just write a stack with one entry per card that stores names and addresses. Then add a search routine. Next add reporting, so you can print a list of phone numbers. Then perhaps you want to be able to click a button and email a person in your list. If your database is getting big, you may want to explore different data storage mechanisms, perhaps even going to an external database like Valentina or MySQL. Now work out how to make it into a standalone. If you work your way through this progression, I am sure you will have a much better understanding of Rev's and your capabilities. Then you might want to go on to something more complex e.g. heavy database management, or some utility to integrate with your servers. Don't start off trying to integrate a multi-user external database with TCP sockets and C++ externals. All those things can be done, but they are not easy. Your need to get to know how Rev works normally: stacks cards, button, fields - basic stuff - before you start to work with the more esoteric parts of the system. As a starting point, I highly recommend that you have a look at the Scripting conference stacks. They start with very basic stuff and build on that. And remember, there are a lot of very experienced people on this list, so no matter what problems you encounter, ask and someone will be sure to help. HTH, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I am one of those free HC to paid HC to paid SC crossgrade to paid Rev enterprise crossgrade to paid Studio downgrade to paid DC to paid DC upgrade. My gosh, I have owned one of every license! Personal circumstances kept me from ever using the first Enterprise license, and I would never have purchased it for $1K. I first purchased it at $300 with an early SC crossgrade promotion. I dare say that I would never have gotten going with RR if they had not changed their pricing policy. I think they have the right basic set of products/prices now. A bit of tweaking might make a few more people happy. If someone can not afford even the $100 for DC, let them use the $1K MC that is now free, then buy DC or studio if they want the latest IDE and features. The price of DC is right. The price of Studio is right. The price of Enterprise is right. Having the full spectrum is right. Get a great hobby product with little personalized support from RR for low cost --on par with the entry level consumer products of major companies like Adobe. Want expensive professional support, pay for a professional license. Totally fair! I am a happy camper, and very happy with RR product policy. However, I must point out that without this list RR would likely die. This list is the life blood that makes it possible for them to sell any cost product without impossible support problems. Value of this list --Priceless! I don't want this to be taken the wrong way (it is not meant to slight any of the truly appreciated professionals on this list), but if I were a professional programmer that was happy to pay $1K initially and upgrade my support every year (because it saved me money in my business), I would frown on RR offering a lower cost version to hobbyists. My reasons would be selfish --I don't want RR to get distracted with another market segment and possibly lesson their focus and support of my needs, or worse go out of business because they misjudged the other market. However, I don't think this is the likely case. I think that they are more likely to stay in business with the current model --it is the model being used by the most successful companies today. They are growing (I assume) slowly as the product matures. At some point I expect this model is going to propel them forward into a larger company that can offer better general support and product bug fixes (I think bugs cost more to fix than adding minor new features), while continuing to support the professionals needs. I expect to continue upgrading my DC every year and perhaps upgrade my Studio if I find I need to make a stand alone (which I have never needed to do). My needs are met by DC for now, but I want to support RR so that they continue to fix bugs and add useful features. My two cents. Dennis On Nov 26, 2005, at 5:03 AM, Kay C Lan wrote: I am a hobbiest and from my perspective I am thankful Runrev are trying to cater to both ends of the market. I have been critical of Runrev's pricing strategy before and have not agreed with it, but they seem to be doing a good job because I have paid for license renewals over the years and have never let my license lapse. I must stress though that I have done so in small steps, and to me this is the key to Runrev extracting more and more money out of me. I started out free, went to Express, then DreamCard, and now Studio, which I have renewed. If Rev was ala ParcSystem, Enterprise option only, they'd have none of my money. They are currently extracting more money out of me than a Digitalk strategy because I have been basically evaluating Rev for the last 4 years, and when I've discovered a 'new' feature that I'd like to take advantage of, but can't because it is in a 'higher' edition, I've eventually concluded that I need to forked over the money... I'm wondering if Dan has a feel for how many people got into scripting because of the FREE HyperCard that came with your Mac back in the late 80's. Sure you eventually had to buy the later editions (2.1 was free if I can remember, but after that if you wanted to create stacks you needed to buy the Developer Tool - about U$120 I think). I still remember the MUG I belonged too suddenly sending out floppies with public domain stacks. Then it was multiple floppies. There were stacks everywhere. I am still amazed at how many HyperCard refugees I see seeking a new life here. I thought I was slow at coming to grips with the fact that HyperCard is dead, but obviously some are still applying CPR;-) How many people got hooked on the Free HyperCard, discovered that they could do something useful with it, and then convinced themselves that they needed to buy the Developer Pack so they could take advantage of the larger feature set of the later editions. How many people made a living out of HyperCard based on their free introduction (not a 30
Re: This is what REALLY SUCKS about whingeing
On 11/24/2005 at 05:04 PM, Thomas McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This definitely sounds like a user error. If you have more than one menu group it will create confusion. If the group fgttryiolk is in the place menu then it was because you 'the user' created it first, Rev certainly did not create it or put it in your stack. Rev gets blamed for things like this all of the time. I have seen this behavior frequently -- yes frequently -- in the OS X version(s) of Rev since way back. Oddly though, the situation where a stack, group, or object strangely gets named some crazy name like fgttryiolk can hardly be written off as completely user error because I never see this happen in the Win2K/XP version of Rev. I don't want to anger the MacOS fans on this list, but there are anomalies like this that do not show themselves in Win or Lin systems. What probably happened was that you were trying to figure out what was wrong and either copied or created a menu group and while it was still selected accidentally typed in the name field, then deleted this background group from that particular card but it was still in the stack. Then you created a new group and had two menu groups and were trying to fix the one but the other one was still there. Yes, these accidents tend to happen... especially when it LOOKS LIKE you are naming the correct object, group, or stack. I don't know if it is MacOS or the RevIDE implementation in MacOS that is at fault, but it happens alot, and you don't realize it until afterwards because the object inspector indicated that you were naming the selected object but it was something else completely. The best approach is always to create a sample stack and put a menu into it to see if it works and that you understand what you are doing in that stack then try and figure out what you did wrong in the broken stack. Don't feel bad though, I certainly blame Rev first and then the Gods of programming before I grudgingly look at myself as the culprit. Most times if I post here others will point this out quickly and then I go OHH, sorry it was me after all. The only problem is that the thread looks like Rev is the problem but in reality it was me all along. LOL The gods of programming must work at Apple then. Next time it would be better not to put what REALLY SUCKS about Rev in the subject line when after all it more than likely and in this case was your mistake. More appropriately, the subject could have been what REALLY SUCKS about Rev --- ON OS X. Don't get me wrong. The MacOS is a cool and wonderful thing, but there is a certain quirkiness that often is simply overlooked by its many FANaticS (RunRev Team included). ;-) Roger Eller [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: This is what REALLY SUCKS about whingeing
On Nov 26, 2005, at 10:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The MacOS is a cool and wonderful thing, but there is a certain quirkiness that often is simply overlooked by its many FANaticS (RunRev Team included). ;-) I resemble that remark ;-))) M Just lightening things up a bit, lest anyone think I took serious affront at the comment. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Player use
Ok, why can I play a MIDI file using a player copied to a window, but I can't play a MIDI file using the play command. Using the play command, I get a nice screech, leading me to believe it is interpreting the MIDI file as an audio file of some form. ? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Small Print Problem
Having a small problem with my print script shown below. Will appreciate any help. Using a scrolling window stack. Rev 2.5.1, OS 10.3.9, Paper size 8.5x11 The top 232 pixels of the card contains numerous flds ,etc followed by fld Listfield. Fld Listfield can contain up to 47 lines for one page. The first page prints fine. Using .88 as printScale, the textsize of ListField is between 9 and 10. Subsequent pages, containing only the text of ListField, use revPrintText but the printed text size is the initial size of 10. Since I don't know how to emulate a printScale in revPrintText, I change the textSize of ListField to 9. This works fine but the text appearance is a little smaller than the first page. I would like subsequent pages to be scaled like the first page. Any thoughts will be appreciated. on mouseUp lock screen set the vScroll of group Checks of this stack to 0 --zero set the backgroundcolor of this card to White set the printMargins to 36,36,0,0 --ltrb set the height of this stack to 800 set the backSize of group Checks to 630,800 set the printScale to .88 put the num of lines of fld ListField into numLines if numLines = 47 then -- up to one page open printing with dialog print this card from 0,20 to 630,800 close printing set the height of this stack to 488 --reset to initial setting set the backSize of group Checks of this stack to 648,483 --reset to initial setting end if if numLines 47 then --prints first page and rest of fld ListField open printing with dialog -- test 11/25 print this card from 0,20 to 630,800 -- as above set the textSize of fld ListField to 9 revShowPrintDialog false,false --so dialogs doesn't show up --test 11/25 revPrintText (line 48 to numLines of fld ListField),,,the long name of fld ListField set the textSize of fld ListField to 10 --reset to initial size set the height of this stack to 488 set the backSize of group Checks of this stack to 648,483 end if end mouseUp Regards ... Bob [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Player use
Frank R wrote: Ok, why can I play a MIDI file using a player copied to a window, but I can't play a MIDI file using the play command. Using the play command, I get a nice screech, leading me to believe it is interpreting the MIDI file as an audio file of some form. If the player is working for you why not use that? -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Player use
Cuz: 1. It didn't make sense, and I'm trying to learn the product 2. The play command makes it easy to play a segment of the file, which I need to do 3. I need to start the player programmatically, and while I see messages to send to the player, I don't see a way to start it yet. Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank R wrote: Ok, why can I play a MIDI file using a player copied to a window, but I can't play a MIDI file using the play command. Using the play command, I get a nice screech, leading me to believe it is interpreting the MIDI file as an audio file of some form. If the player is working for you why not use that? -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 25, 2005, at 11:12 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: RealBASIC Standard $99 RealBASIC Pro $399 Macromedia Flash: $699 Macromedia Director: $1,199 (per platform) I decided a while back not to get involved with tool politics in this forum (it has caused ill-will in the past), but just to be fair – the latest versions of Macromedia Director can compile applications for both platforms it supports (Mac Windows) with a single platform license, much the way Flash, and RealBasic are listed above. -- Troy RPSystems, Ltd. http://www.rpsystems.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Player use
Frank R wrote: Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the player is working for you why not use that? 1. It didn't make sense, and I'm trying to learn the product The play command is an old interface to the system's video and audio playback. While not officially depricated, it doesn't offer nearly the flexibility of the player object. I may be wrong on this, but I believe the play command is limited in the variety of formats it can play. Technically speaking, a MIDI files isn't an audio file per se, but merely instructions to create an audio experience dynamically. It may be that the play command simple doesn't handle the MIDI format. I never use the play command, so I'm sure one of the readers here with more experience with it can chime in with details, but I do use the player object regularly and can help you get going with that newer, more flexible interface. 2. The play command makes it easy to play a segment of the file, which I need to do Player objects have a startTime and endTime property, and a playSelection property which governs whether the startTime and endTime are honored. To play a specific segment of a file: set the playSelection of player 1 to true set the startTime of player 1 to 500 set the endTime of player 1 to 1000 3. I need to start the player programmatically, and while I see messages to send to the player, I don't see a way to start it yet. start player 1 And the player can be stopped with: stop player 1 -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Player use
Frank R wrote: Ok, why can I play a MIDI file using a player copied to a window, but I can't play a MIDI file using the play command. Using the play command, I get a nice screech, leading me to believe it is interpreting the MIDI file as an audio file of some form. Right. Player objects use QuickTime to interpret and process the audio. Since QT supports MIDI, it plays correctly. You also have more control over playback when using a player object. The play command works with only a subset of audio formats and plays the files directly. In general, you can use the play command with .au, .aif, and .wav files as long as they have NO compression (and I haven't had great luck with .wav in any case.) If at all possible, a player object is the prefered method, and for the case of MIDI it is the only method. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: This is what REALLY SUCKS about whingeing
hmm, well i havnt seen this flavor of oddness, but the few weird 'how did that happen???' things with groups have all happened on the Windows side for me and I do most of my development on the Mac side. Since this is usually after a lot of development time, its hard to say exactly what caused it all, its almost always unreproducable, so most likely just a screwup somewhere along the way. I think some of this is summed up by some stuff just does happen, whether its a bug, file corruption or a user goof or just doing things in such an order that a strange event happens (yes this is a bug, but not a real one since all extreme permutations/combinations cant ever be tested/accounted for). I find that the total quantity of these in MC and Rev while developing all sorts of apps to be very low compared to all other systems i have used over the last 25 years on macs or pcs. I have also never gotten myself painted into a corner with Rev or MC and always found a solution or at worst a work around. I have watched many friends and coworkers get painted into some very, very nasty corners in the past with many of the other big systems out there! Expecting no strangeness to happen in complicated systems like this is just asking way, way too much, IMHO. Yes its frustrating when you hit a snag, but a deep breath, some elbow grease, and post/replies from this list has always gotten around this for me with MC/Rev. It would be great in a perfect world that this would never be needed, but living in the real world i find that MC/Rev has made my life sooo much better than the alternatives I have worked with, that i can put up with a few oddities once and great while. cheers, Jeffrey Reynolds On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/24/2005 at 05:04 PM, Thomas McGrath III [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This definitely sounds like a user error. If you have more than one menu group it will create confusion. If the group fgttryiolk is in the place menu then it was because you 'the user' created it first, Rev certainly did not create it or put it in your stack. Rev gets blamed for things like this all of the time. I have seen this behavior frequently -- yes frequently -- in the OS X version(s) of Rev since way back. Oddly though, the situation where a stack, group, or object strangely gets named some crazy name like fgttryiolk can hardly be written off as completely user error because I never see this happen in the Win2K/XP version of Rev. I don't want to anger the MacOS fans on this list, but there are anomalies like this that do not show themselves in Win or Lin systems. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Question on Radio Buttons
Hello Phil Davis, I do not have access to it now but two more questions. The question names are still active when all the buttons are set up as a group (I imagine I must have to set then up before they are a group)? Why doesn't answer gQuestion1 return a value when used in a button? Thank you and Happy Holidays All best Always Fred From: Phil Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: Re: Question on Radio Buttons Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:38:39 -0800 Hi Fred - If you just want to put the into the global, try this: on mouseUp -- in the radio button group global gQuestion1 put the hilitedButtonName of me into gQuestion1 end mouseUp Then your original 'button script' below should work fine. If you want to score each answer as you go, you could do this: - set the name of each radio button to either correct or wrong - set the label of each button to its answer text - make your script do this: on mouseUp -- in the radio button group global gQuestion1 put the hilitedButtonName of me cr \ the label of the target into gQuestion1 end mouseUp This would put a 2-line response into gQuestion1. - line 1 = 'correct' or 'wrong' - line 2 = the answer they selected There are also other ways to accomplish this or just about anything else you want to do. Food for thought... Phil Davis Fred Giannetto wrote: Hello, I am trying to store the response from a radio button group in a global variable. I have went throught the board and every remedy I try does not return a value. I have one multiple choice group and one button that I am using to try to answer the result (so I can see if it is processing) I have tried two different approaches Radio Button Group on mouseup --put the hiliteButtonName of me into gTest --put the hiliteButtonID of me into gTest if the target is B then put Correct into gQuestion1 else put Wrong into gQuestion1 end mouseup Button Script on mouseUp global gQuestion1 --global gTest --answer gTest answer gQuestion1 end mouseUp For some reason I can not seem to grasp this concept. Thank you All best Always Fred ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Well-said, Preston! I'm adding this to my quotation list for my positive reminders of why I do what I do. On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:04 AM, Preston Shea wrote: A thousand bucks to set up your own contracting business? You gotta be kidding! ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I honestly do not believe that a single small company -- and RunRev is small -- can do a great job of serving both the professional programming market and the hobbyist/Inventive User market. The needs, expectations, demands, support requirements, feature sets, documentation needs, training level and a host of other factors are just too vastly different between them. I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank. Can you give us an example or two of where this pricing is common among development tools? I see feature-crippled and time-limited evaluation licensing all the time, but I can't honestly think of a single development tool that has a free learning edition that you upgrade to so you can deploy apps. Also, with an environment like Rev, the distinction between deploy as a standalone and deploy as a stack is badly blurred by the fact that: (a) anyone with a RunRev tool (and in your scenario that would include anyone who wanted to download it) can run any stack anyone else creates, at least conceptually; and (b) there are at least two free players available that would allow the owner of a 0-cost learning edition to distribute (and presumably therefore sell) products that run in either the IDE or the players without paying a dime for the tool. That is a good way to sink the tool company. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:35 AM, Frank R wrote: This type of Learning Edition pricing is actually common - and well received. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank... Supplementing my last post with a response to this On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:41 AM, Frank R wrote: ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version This would require RunRev to institute another level of copy protection or code protection so that something I write in my copy of Dreamcard wouldn't run in either the free player or in someone else's Dreamcard environment. All so that a few people who don't want to part with a hundred bucks can learn the tool? Nope. Has to be a more economically efficient and sustainable way to accomplish what you want. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
There's no such thing as bug-free software. And the company has recently begun doing a fantastic job of squashing bugs, so they get the message that they need to be more bug-free. On Nov 26, 2005, at 4:03 AM, David Burgun wrote: Before they do that they need to get all the bugs out of it, ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Old Chestnut - Again
As someone who has been playing in the software universe for far, far too long, I can tell you that: (a) your basic idea is attractive and workable (b) it is an economic disaster for the publisher Why? Because of something called SKUs. That stands for Stock Keeping Unit and it's the number by which wholesalers, distributors and retailers identify a specific product uniquely for inventory tracking and sales monitoring purposes. There is a fundamental business principle that says the more SKUs you try to put into the channel of distribution, the greater will be the resistance to your entire line. Large companies can overcome that resistance. Small companies are hard-pressed to do so. On Nov 26, 2005, at 6:13 AM, Mathewson wrote: Might it not be an idea to break RR up into modules: ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 26 Nov 2005, at 21:01, Dan Shafer wrote: I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. I'd second that. What I would love to see is RunRev let go substantially of the professional coders end of the market, by adopting an innovative open content strategy, and reaping the benefits of being able to package the features developed in the professional market for the Inventive User (nice term). Scott Raney tried to do it the other way round - licensing the core engine / code to developers who could then produce IDE's like RunRev have done. I think this was a good idea too - but the time was not quite right. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dennis A well-thought-out and appreciated post. But, as with others who have offered this viewpoint, I am compelled to ask you to provide even one example of a development tool company following the strategy you describe below that you say is being used by the most successful companies today. And I'll expand on that a bit. Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. When I think of successful software companies in the desktop universe, I think of: Microsoft Adobe Macromedia (about to be swallowed by Adobe if that hasn't been finalized yet) Apple (partly) Real Maybe Oracle (which is a dev tools vendor in large part, but not much on the desktop) Adobe doesn't have a low-cost entry version of Acrobat or inDesign. A trial version, yes, but when it expires you pay through the nose to keep using it. Same with Macromedia. Apple supports low- and high-end users in a couple of its strategic markets, but with two separate products, not a low-cost version of the high-priced one. Real has a free player but if you want to start creating Real media streams you're gonna pay a bundle. So where are these software companies that are following this two- market strategy successfully? To the contrary, I think the secret to a successful company -- in any sphere -- is focus. Do what you do well and let others do the stuff you don't do well. If RunRev had a couple hundred people, *maybe* they could figure out how to serve both markets with great success. Short of that, I am unconvinced. On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:52 AM, Dennis Brown wrote: I think that they are more likely to stay in business with the current model --it is the model being used by the most successful companies today. They are growing (I assume) slowly as the product matures. At some point I expect this model is going to propel them forward into a larger company that can offer better general support and product bug fixes (I think bugs cost more to fix than adding minor new features), while continuing to support the professionals needs. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: This is what REALLY SUCKS about whingeing
Roger Interestingly, I have *never* encounhtered most of the anomalies mentioned in this thread and I program in Rev exclusively on OS X. Yeah, I'm a MacBigot and I may just be blissfully unaware of these issues. But I've written hundreds of small code snippets for books and articles and more than a dozen commercial-grade apps, to say nothing of a larger number of small utilities, test stacks, demos, proofs-of-concept, etc., and I just don't have the experience with OS X that you report here. On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't get me wrong. The MacOS is a cool and wonderful thing, but there is a certain quirkiness that often is simply overlooked by its many FANaticS (RunRev Team included). ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Old Chestnut - Again
On 26 Nov 2005, at 21:14, Dan Shafer wrote: As someone who has been playing in the software universe for far, far too long, I can tell you that: (a) your basic idea is attractive and workable (b) it is an economic disaster for the publisher Why? Because of something called SKUs. That stands for Stock Keeping Unit and it's the number by which wholesalers, distributors and retailers identify a specific product uniquely for inventory tracking and sales monitoring purposes. There is a fundamental business principle that says the more SKUs you try to put into the channel of distribution, the greater will be the resistance to your entire line. Large companies can overcome that resistance. Small companies are hard-pressed to do so. This is very true - with one qualification: If the price of adding an extra item (and maintaining it) to your inventory falls below a certain threshold the economics get substantially reversed. Amazon is a case-study here. Most publishers make 80% or more of their money from the big sellers making virtually all of the rest of their inventory useless in terms of a hard bottom- line. This goes for music and video too. However recent analysis of Amazon sales has shown that they manage to generate a substantial part of their profits from the bottom end of their stock (in terms of sales) - from memory some 30%. This is because of the very low cost to them of adding (and maintaining) new SKU's to their inventory - this combined with their reseller programme greatly facilitated by the REST based web services which allow just about anybody to offer selections of Amazon books for sale on their own custom sites. No-one has managed to do this with software components yet. My view is that due to the technology and community involved in the Revolution environment - RunRev are uniquely placed to pull such a trick off. Whether anyone agrees with me on that is another question. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Old Chestnut - Again
David... Good response. I agree that new markets can turn into wonderful exceptions. On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:34 PM, David Bovill wrote: No-one has managed to do this with software components yet. My view is that due to the technology and community involved in the Revolution environment - RunRev are uniquely placed to pull such a trick off. Whether anyone agrees with me on that is another question. I have given up on this dream. In the 70's and 80's, several companies tried -- with true object-oriented platforms such as Smalltalk and Java -- to create viable third-party marketplaces for software components, to no avail. I think it's an unattainable objective, for reasons that are far too complex to go into on this forum. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan, this is an innocent question, not intended to provoke or contradict, but where do you think Rev is currently falling down with regard to either pro developers or inventive users? As a hobbyist/inventive user (an excellent phrase, btw), I feel very well served by Rev, though perhaps others may not. Mark On 26 Nov 2005, at 20:01, Dan Shafer wrote: I honestly do not believe that a single small company -- and RunRev is small -- can do a great job of serving both the professional programming market and the hobbyist/Inventive User market. The needs, expectations, demands, support requirements, feature sets, documentation needs, training level and a host of other factors are just too vastly different between them. I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan Shafer wrote: Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. Agreed 100%. If a tool has any potential to appeal to pros, I believe there's sufficient evidence to support the view that focusing on the pro market will ultimately benefit both pros and hobbyists more than focusing on the latter. Pros need pro tools, and even hobbysts aspire to professional-looking results. A strategy that appeals to the high end will appeal to both. If a company is large enough to fully invest the necessary resources for two completely different markets (large enough to operate effectively as two separate companies), a two-pronged approach may have merit. But in our world with inherent limitations, that's a tough thing to do. Consider DreamCard: to fulfill its mission it really needs a very different UI from Rev, but as it is it's essentially the same product without the standalone builder. DreamCard's been around for years -- if there are plans to further differentiate it history evidently supports the view that resources are insufficient to pull that off. To the degree this is a result of focusing on the pro product maybe that's not so bad. My perspective is admittedly skewed, being dependent on the pro product to manage the three businesses in which I'm CTO: I'd hate to see any slowdown of bug fixes or feature enhancements in the engine to make a prettier entry-level tool. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Old Chestnut - Again
Dan Shafer wrote: On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:34 PM, David Bovill wrote: No-one has managed to do this with software components yet. My view is that due to the technology and community involved in the Revolution environment - RunRev are uniquely placed to pull such a trick off. Whether anyone agrees with me on that is another question. I have given up on this dream. In the 70's and 80's, several companies tried -- with true object-oriented platforms such as Smalltalk and Java -- to create viable third-party marketplaces for software components, to no avail. I think it's an unattainable objective, for reasons that are far too complex to go into on this forum. There is one exception: components for Microsoft's Visual Basic. As of five years ago the aftermarket for VB was estimated at more than $400 million. Of course, anyone intimately familiar with Microsoft can describe the underhanded shennanigans Microsoft pulled to get that market going (oh, the stories I've heard). Among companies operating in any above-board fashion, there are indeed few examples. Once upon a time Fourth World was the leading externals distributor for SuperCard -- even before SuperCard's troubles under Allegiant, selling components is just not an easy business to be in. It's a low-margin, high-support proposition. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 26 Nov 2005, at 22:03, Mark Smith wrote: Dan, this is an innocent question, not intended to provoke or contradict, but where do you think Rev is currently falling down with regard to either pro developers or inventive users? Hard one to answer as RunRev do do a VERY good job at trying to serve both ends of the market - no better deal fi you cater for both cross platform. However from my personal perspective I'd note the following: 1) Lack of the large number of professional grade commercial plugins or open source libraries available compared to other platforms (this seems to be changing slowly). 2) Slowly deteriorating *nix support (hopefully to be remedied soon). 3) Lack of open source strategy - not helping with contracts or to fix 2) and 3) above. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Bovill wrote: 1) Lack of the large number of professional grade commercial plugins or open source libraries available compared to other platforms (this seems to be changing slowly). They're out there, just poorly cataloged. RunRev currently only lists components they resell, and the DMOZ index contains only a slender subset of what's available: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/ 2) Slowly deteriorating *nix support (hopefully to be remedied soon). Relative to ROI, I can't argue with them there. How many folks on this list are using IRIX? 3) Lack of open source strategy - not helping with contracts or to fix 2) and 3) above. I hope I never see the day when RunRev takes resources away from product development to start hiring lawyers to do legal consulting. RunRev's license seems very clear to me, and I don't expect them to assist me with negotiating my own contracts with my clients. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: The Old Chestnut - Again
On 26 Nov 2005, at 22:02, Dan Shafer wrote: I have given up on this dream. In the 70's and 80's, several companies tried -- with true object-oriented platforms such as Smalltalk and Java -- to create viable third-party marketplaces for software components, to no avail. I know what you mean. I remain an optimist, partly because I never remotely thought the previous efforts would work, and partly because a number of things have moved on: 1) Open source cryptography and built upon this online eCommerce 2) Social software and an understanding of how to build shared communities of value. 3) Greatly simplified, robust and easy to deploy and maintain components that developers can both use - and some are willing to pay for (web services form part of that admittedly new equation, Revolution could fill another part). ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Bovill wrote: What I would love to see is RunRev let go substantially of the professional coders end of the market, by adopting an innovative open content strategy Letting go of users able and willing to pay top dollar to pursue a customer self-qualified as less willing to pay seems risky at best. I would wholeheartedly support a move by RunRev to spin off the pro product to someone else if they find themselves too encumbered with other considerations to handle it effectively. At the moment, however, they seem to be doing fine, well worth my clients paying $500 annually for renewal -- free money, year after year, like clockwork. It costs far more to acquire five new DreamCard customers than it does to simply renew an Enterprise license. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: This is what REALLY SUCKS about whingeing
I agree Dan... I have never had any of these issues come up for me. Tom On Nov 26, 2005, at 3:27 PM, Dan Shafer wrote: Roger Interestingly, I have *never* encounhtered most of the anomalies mentioned in this thread and I program in Rev exclusively on OS X. Yeah, I'm a MacBigot and I may just be blissfully unaware of these issues. But I've written hundreds of small code snippets for books and articles and more than a dozen commercial-grade apps, to say nothing of a larger number of small utilities, test stacks, demos, proofs-of-concept, etc., and I just don't have the experience with OS X that you report here. On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't get me wrong. The MacOS is a cool and wonderful thing, but there is a certain quirkiness that often is simply overlooked by its many FANaticS (RunRev Team included). ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 26 Nov 2005, at 22:18, Richard Gaskin wrote: David Bovill wrote: 1) Lack of the large number of professional grade commercial plugins or open source libraries available compared to other platforms (this seems to be changing slowly). They're out there, just poorly cataloged. RunRev currently only lists components they resell, and the DMOZ index contains only a slender subset of what's available: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/ But nothing even close to what you get if you compare it to Java (largely due to the careful open source strategy), and dare I say Director? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: This is what REALLY SUCKS about whingeing
Jeffrey Reynolds wrote: I think some of this is summed up by some stuff just does happen, whether its a bug, file corruption or a user goof or just doing things in such an order that a strange event happens Fortunately you can rule out file corruption for 99% of the cases where it's suspected: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2003-June/017928.html http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2002-December/010842.html http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2002-December/010776.html Reducing the range of possible causes of a problem will help you discover the true cause more quickly. Corruption is not impossible with any file format, but for the reasons described in those posts it's exremely rare with Rev, certainly orders of magnitude more frequent in any other xTalk or even FileMaker Pro. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Bovill wrote: On 26 Nov 2005, at 22:18, Richard Gaskin wrote: David Bovill wrote: 1) Lack of the large number of professional grade commercial plugins or open source libraries available compared to other platforms (this seems to be changing slowly). They're out there, just poorly cataloged. RunRev currently only lists components they resell, and the DMOZ index contains only a slender subset of what's available: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/ But nothing even close to what you get if you compare it to Java (largely due to the careful open source strategy), and dare I say Director? Maye having million-dollar marketing budgets helped. ;) As for Director, while there are a great many components there is no longer a single third-party source for them. Gray Matter used to be that source, but they closed their doors many years ago, and today only Macromedia themselves can afford to be the central repository. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
This morning was the last of 16 installments of the Scripting Conferences organized by Jacque Gay with the help of RunRev and more than a dozen scripting experts (and one slacker who did the session on the Message Hierarchy g). I can only imagine how much work it takes to pull off a project like that, but we can all see the excellent results firsthand: http://support.runrev.com/scriptingconferences/ On that page you can downkload 16 stacks covering a great many details on the most important aspects of learning and using Transcript. Whether you're just getting started learning Rev, or are a seasoned pro looking to brush up on some aspects of the language you haven't yet mastered, there's something there for everyone. Hats off and three cheers for Jacque and the contributors who put those together! It was a tremendous effort, and one that will benefit the community for years to come. Thank you, Jacque, for having the vision and perseverence to pull that off, and the attention to detail to do it so well. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Graphic Design Tools
Us cheap-jacks use GIMP: takes a while to get used to - but it is worth the work; and, fac it, the price is fantastic! I use GIMP on Mac OS X and Ubuntu Linux. GIMP is now available for MAC OS X without having to fool around with X11. sincerely, Richmond __ See Mathewson's software at: http://members.maclaunch.com/richmond/default.html ___ --- The Think Different Store http://www.thinkdifferentstore.com/ For All Your Mac Gear --- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
For some time I have been toying with the idea that software should be sold on an income-weighted pricing scheme. If Richard can afford to pay more for Rev than Andre, it is in large part because he lives and earns in USA rather than Brazil. I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:12 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Personally, I think Rev is priced too low. And Andre replied: Sh... don't talk that too loud, I am trying to sum some money to buy a new license and pounds are expensive ;-) Regards, Michael ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Michael Lew wrote: For some time I have been toying with the idea that software should be sold on an income-weighted pricing scheme. If Richard can afford to pay more for Rev than Andre, it is in large part because he lives and earns in USA rather than Brazil. I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... I don't currently make money from writing software - I make utilities for my own use. But if I did sell software I don't think I'd be interested in getting paid 3rd world wages (no offense intended - just don't know another way to say it) and paying U.S. rates for my housing, food etc. If you're rich and don't care, you can give your software away. I'm sure many of the pros on this list who make money programming, program because they like doing so. I'm sure the RunRev people love what they do. But we all have bills to pay too. When someone sets a price on a piece of software, I get to decide if that's worth my money. I don't figure it's their job to make sure I can afford it - they don't owe me a thing (which is the attitude that socialism breeds IMHO, sorry to digress into politics!). Certainly it's noble to want to see everyone have access to good software. But having directed a local soup kitchen for 6 years, I can tell you there are people in the U.S. who are desperately poor. Who would administrate a system that would charge based on income? I think I would always be VERY poor when I went to make my purchases! Marty Knapp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan Shafer wrote: But, as with others who have offered this viewpoint, I am compelled to ask you to provide even one example of a development tool company following the strategy you describe below that you say is being used by the most successful companies today. And I'll expand on that a bit. Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. I think I'd count Adobe - Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. I think they're both variants of the same basic product - you might even want to call Elements a cut-down, crippled version of Photoshop - but it seems to me like they are basically the same product / same code base. So where are these software companies that are following this two- market strategy successfully? To the contrary, I think the secret to a successful company -- in any sphere -- is focus. Do what you do well and let others do the stuff you don't do well. If RunRev had a couple hundred people, *maybe* they could figure out how to serve both markets with great success. Short of that, I am unconvinced. If they could figure this out, maybe they *could* have a couple of hundred people :-) -- Alex Tweedly http://www.tweedly.net -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 25/11/2005 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Borland. I can't swear they still do it to this day, but in recent years, they were doing Learning Editions that had lots of function, but you couldn't legally sell apps built with it. But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Peace! :) Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank. Can you give us an example or two of where this pricing is common among development tools? I see feature-crippled and time-limited evaluation licensing all the time, but I can't honestly think of a single development tool that has a free learning edition that you upgrade to so you can deploy apps. Also, with an environment like Rev, the distinction between deploy as a standalone and deploy as a stack is badly blurred by the fact that: (a) anyone with a RunRev tool (and in your scenario that would include anyone who wanted to download it) can run any stack anyone else creates, at least conceptually; and (b) there are at least two free players available that would allow the owner of a 0-cost learning edition to distribute (and presumably therefore sell) products that run in either the IDE or the players without paying a dime for the tool. That is a good way to sink the tool company. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:35 AM, Frank R wrote: This type of Learning Edition pricing is actually common - and well received. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Graphic Design Tools
?? Not according to http://www.gimp.org/macintosh/ Where'd you see it? Charles Hartman On Nov 26, 2005, at 4:52 PM, Mathewson wrote: GIMP is now available for MAC OS X without having to fool around with X11. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
On 11/27/05, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This morning was the last of 16 installments of the Scripting Conferences organized by Jacque Gay with the help of RunRev and more than a dozen scripting experts (and one slacker who did the session on the Message Hierarchy g). I can only imagine how much work it takes to pull off a project like that, but we can all see the excellent results firsthand: http://support.runrev.com/scriptingconferences/ On that page you can downkload 16 stacks covering a great many details on the most important aspects of learning and using Transcript. Whether you're just getting started learning Rev, or are a seasoned pro looking to brush up on some aspects of the language you haven't yet mastered, there's something there for everyone. Hats off and three cheers for Jacque and the contributors who put those together! It was a tremendous effort, and one that will benefit the community for years to come. Thank you, Jacque, for having the vision and perseverence to pull that off, and the attention to detail to do it so well. I heartily agree with Richard's comments. Many thanks congratulations to Jacque. They were fun to do as well, with Jacque's wonderful template stack and her kind words of wisdom encouragement. Cheers, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 25, 2005, at 8:04 PM, Michael Lew wrote: For some time I have been toying with the idea that software should be sold on an income-weighted pricing scheme. If Richard can afford to pay more for Rev than Andre, it is in large part because he lives and earns in USA rather than Brazil. I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... That's very hard. my incomme is lower than the US Standard, but RunRev expenses are higher than Brazilian expenses I cannot expect to pay with discount when they spend that much money developing the thing. It's not that hard to pay for Rev, specially Studio. Couple contract works get that going, the hard part is bootstrap your enterprize. If you don't have a development enviroment then acquiring the contract works is somewhat hard, but after you get that initial steps going... it's not that hard. so I think Rev is more expensive for those building their own tools than it is for those doing contract work... andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Use Ms Windows DLL
Hello, can someone help me to understand how to use a Windows DLL in RunRev? I cannot find the exact function to load a library and use the functions contained inside. :-( Thank you! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Graphic Design Tools
I stated in a previous post that the current Mac OS X version of the GIMP does not require X11. I was wrong - and I am sorry if this gave anyone false hope! Notwithstanding this, I find the GIMP is an excellent graphic design tool. There was (2001) a native Cocoa version of GIMP - but it was commercial and never got beyond version 0.1 sincerely, Richmond __ See Mathewson's software at: http://members.maclaunch.com/richmond/default.html ___ --- The Think Different Store http://www.thinkdifferentstore.com/ For All Your Mac Gear --- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
On 11/26/05 3:56 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hats off and three cheers for Jacque and the contributors who put those together! Hear hear! It was a tremendous effort, and one that will benefit the community for years to come. I could not agree more. Thank you, Jacque, for having the vision and perseverence to pull that off, and the attention to detail to do it so well. Indeed, and a personal thank you for chasing us all down and getting us to get our stacks in... :-) Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
There was an error connecting to the database
Does anyone know how to trouble shoot there was an error connecting to the
database? I must have an automatic database connection somewhere that I
don't use which is set-up wrong. Is there some kind of debugger message that
I can set to turn on before everything else that would then put in the
message box where this database connection is that it is trying?
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fax: (787) 809-8426
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Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 27/11/2005, at 9:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... I don't currently make money from writing software - I make utilities for my own use. But if I did sell software I don't think I'd be interested in getting paid 3rd world wages (no offense intended - just don't know another way to say it) and paying U.S. rates for my housing, food etc. Making your software available at locally-affordable rates should not influence your ability to charge appropriate amounts in your country. Locally-affordable would be higher in the USA than in Brazil, and higher in Brazil than in Zaire. If you're rich and don't care, you can give your software away. I'm sure many of the pros on this list who make money programming, program because they like doing so. I'm sure the RunRev people love what they do. But we all have bills to pay too. When someone sets a price on a piece of software, I get to decide if that's worth my money. You've missed the point. If you only use a US-centric view of economic values then you leave out most of the people alive. What is offensive about asking a locally-affordable price for a product that has no cost for reproduction once produced? I don't figure it's their job to make sure I can afford it - they don't owe me a thing (which is the attitude that socialism breeds IMHO, sorry to digress into politics!). Given how we have gotten to the current world financial model, it would be more likely that we owe them than they owe us! Remember that the unequal distribution of wealth has come from the unequal distribution of power, not the unequal distribution of worth. It serves the ruling minority interests to equate means and success with moral worth, but we should be able to see beyond it. Certainly it's noble to want to see everyone have access to good software. But having directed a local soup kitchen for 6 years, I can tell you there are people in the U.S. who are desperately poor. Who would administrate a system that would charge based on income? I think I would always be VERY poor when I went to make my purchases! Marty Knapp I hope that you are kidding about that last comment, or at least exaggerating to illustrate a possible abuse of the proposed system. At the moment, in your country and mine, the very wealthy pay very little tax. The inevitability of abuse and loopholes should not be taken as a reason not to attempt to improve something. Regards, ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan, I know you qualified that as *development* tool, but I am just thinking *tool*. I don't look at Dream Card differently than Elements, or a low end CAD tool, or an outliner... All are consumer tools to me. I look at the utility of each to me to solve one type of problem. Being a hobbyist, I use a lot of different tools, but not at the same time. In fact, the reason I buy a tool is because I have just one project that I need the tool for. I might use Rev like crazy for a few months, then not use it at all for a year, then back at it again. I also have a lot of woodworking tools. I buy the lowest cost tool that will do a reasonable job, then If I wear it out, or find it is the most used tool, I will replace it with a professional grade one. If I were to go for the professional grade software, or wood working tool in everything I have, I would have to spend $100K in tools and if it were all software tools, $30K/year in upgrades --that isn't going to happen! However, If I really got into Rev and was going to generate income with it, I would upgrade to a Professional version --just as I would with any other tool that warranted it. I see examples of the multi price point tool products from successful companies everywhere. When I buy a table saw, darned if they don't all have a similar user interface. Expectations also change with the size of the investment. If my cheap $100 saw (which lacks some features of the expensive one and comes with a short warranty) breaks, I try to fix it, or junk it. Whereas, if my expensive saw breaks, the manufacture better damn sure get their asses in gear and get this tool fixed now --and they do! In the case of RR, I think they are taking the right approach. They primarily listen to and support the professional customers --exactly right, that gives them focus. They maintain one interface and code base across their products --essential for limiting the incremental work involved in the lower priced products, since the company is too small to support multiple efforts. Since Rev is complex to fully learn all the features, Hobby programmers that grow into professionals, do not have to start over in the learning curve. I just can't think of a better planned way of doing this with the size that RR is now. Being the type of customer that (if I weren't retired) could potentially turn Pro, I can speak from how I view these products. I view the RR product line in a favorable light, but Transcript is rich and complex. The biggest roadblock I see is making the documentation into something that captures the wisdom of this list that can be searched with only a concept of the problem to be solved instead of what the solution is called by someone else. It is too big a project for RR to tackle. It can only be done by this list. But that is another thread on another list. BTW, in the early 70's I was a freelance consultant for early Intel 8008 based product developers. I wrote an 8008 emulator for a minicomputer that I designed, and ran Intel's development tools on it. I could turn around compiles 10 times faster than my customers using Intel's native development tools. I provided hardware or software consulting. The thrust of my consulting was to provide initial solutions, then provide the training to the customer's engineers to take over the project as soon as possible (I had my own products to develop, but needed to generate additional cash from consulting). So my perspective does span a broader range than just the inventive hobbyist. Dennis On Nov 26, 2005, at 3:24 PM, Dan Shafer wrote: Dennis A well-thought-out and appreciated post. But, as with others who have offered this viewpoint, I am compelled to ask you to provide even one example of a development tool company following the strategy you describe below that you say is being used by the most successful companies today. And I'll expand on that a bit. Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. When I think of successful software companies in the desktop universe, I think of: Microsoft Adobe Macromedia (about to be swallowed by Adobe if that hasn't been finalized yet) Apple (partly) Real Maybe Oracle (which is a dev tools vendor in large part, but not much on the desktop) Adobe doesn't have a low-cost entry version of Acrobat or inDesign. A trial version, yes, but when it expires you pay through the nose to keep using it. Same with Macromedia. Apple supports low- and high-end users in a couple of its strategic markets, but with two separate products, not a low-cost version of the high-priced one. Real has a free player but if you want to start creating Real media streams you're gonna
Re: Player use
Recently,Frank R wrote: Ok, why can I play a MIDI file using a player copied to a window, but I can't play a MIDI file using the play command. Using the play command, I get a nice screech, leading me to believe it is interpreting the MIDI file as an audio file of some form. I believe this is because Rev cannot *natively* play MIDI. You must either use a player, which utilizes the system's bulit-in media technology (default is QuickTime, but can also be WMP on Windows if QT is not available). Or you must use an external. Rev's play command is intended for a small set of audio formats, including WAV. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 2:40:06 PM, you wrote: Borland. I can't swear they still do it to this day, but in recent years, they were doing Learning Editions that had lots of function, but you couldn't legally sell apps built with it. Borland makes their 5.0 compiler freely available to do with what you want, but that's rather like saying you can use MetaCard today without the rev IDE. But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Not so. This topic comes up once a year or so, and I think it's a good discussion to have, just to get it done again. I've got my own ideas of how I'd run things if I were in charge, and fortunately for all concerned I'm not the CEO of runrev, so nobody has to deal with them. My hat's off to Kevin and crew for keeping things rolling, and I'm glad that the headaches are theirs to deal with and not mine. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 25, 2005, at 7:45 PM, Michael Lew wrote: At the moment, in your country and mine, the very wealthy pay very little tax. The top 1% earners in the US pay 34% of the taxes. The top 5% earners in the US pay 54% of the taxes. The top 50% earners in the US pay 97% of the taxes. If a wealthy person here is not paying much tax, it means they are likely going to not be wealthy much longer. Dennis ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
Richard- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 1:56:10 PM, you wrote: Hats off and three cheers for Jacque and the contributors who put those together! Indeed. Jacque made it easy and fun to put together the conferences and provided the needed support along the way, in addition to archiving the conference logs and making them available. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
on Sat, 26 Nov 2005 Dan Shafer wrote: Can you give us an example or two of where this pricing is common among development tools? I see feature-crippled and time-limited evaluation licensing all the time, but I can't honestly think of a single development tool that has a free learning edition that you upgrade to so you can deploy apps. Hi Dan, Does Maya Personal Learning Edition qualify in this category of development tool? http://www.alias.com/glb/eng/products-services/product_details.jsp?productId=193 Maya Personal Learning Edition is a complete tool for the complex Maya Animation System, but uses an special file format that could not be opened in the Professional Versions of Maya. Could RunRev create a special stack file format that do not open in the full versions of DreamCard or Revolution? I think that the answer is yes... Could this make happy many people? al Visit my site: http://www.geocities.com/capellan2000/ __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
Richard- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 1:56:10 PM, you wrote: This morning was the last of 16 installments of the Scripting Conferences organized by Jacque Gay with the help of RunRev and more than a dozen scripting experts (and one slacker who did the session on the Message Hierarchy g). ...and my thanks to Alex Tweedly for cluing me in to the joys of messageChunk(). I've been seriously neglecting that function. I want to point out, though, now that I've been fiddling with it, that the use of the (?.) function in regex is a *necessity* for parsing text this way. It isn't listed in the documentation for the regex commands, but it's what gets you past the linefeeds. if messageChunk(someText, (?.)BODY(.+)/BODY, tStart, tEnd) then -- do something with the text here end if -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
On 11/26/05 8:04 PM, Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 1:56:10 PM, you wrote: This morning was the last of 16 installments of the Scripting Conferences organized by Jacque Gay with the help of RunRev and more than a dozen scripting experts (and one slacker who did the session on the Message Hierarchy g). ...and my thanks to Alex Tweedly for cluing me in to the joys of messageChunk(). I've been seriously neglecting that function. I think you meant matchChunk... but you're right - it's a wonderful function. I want to point out, though, now that I've been fiddling with it, that the use of the (?.) function in regex is a *necessity* for parsing text this way. It isn't listed in the documentation for the regex commands, but it's what gets you past the linefeeds. Really? I'd been using (?s) - do you know if it does the same thing? Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
[OT] Handling Returned Virus Mail
Sorry to put this OT subject on the list but I'm hoping to solicit some of the more knowledgeable minds out there... Over the last week I've been inundated (yet again) with a tidal wave of bounced virus email messages. Of course I did not initiate any of the original messages -- I'm receiving the bounced attempts and server notices as a result of virus propagation. My ISP has spam filters and virus blocking which is fine for general incoming email, and I use client-side filters as well, but the problem is having to deal with messages that are being returned to me because viruses messages are spoofing my domain. I've written about 2 dozen rules on my end (Entourage) to weed out the bogus email but with a recent outbreak I've received almost 7,000 messages in just the last week. These bounced messages are clogging my server and I need to stay on email duty daily to clear them out. Any suggestions on how to combat this problem? Thanks Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I wasn't referring to the free and old C++ available. Recently, they had Learning Editions of All their current development tools - Delphi, C++, Kylix, Java. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 2:40:06 PM, you wrote: Borland. I can't swear they still do it to this day, but in recent years, they were doing Learning Editions that had lots of function, but you couldn't legally sell apps built with it. Borland makes their 5.0 compiler freely available to do with what you want, but that's rather like saying you can use MetaCard today without the rev IDE. But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Not so. This topic comes up once a year or so, and I think it's a good discussion to have, just to get it done again. I've got my own ideas of how I'd run things if I were in charge, and fortunately for all concerned I'm not the CEO of runrev, so nobody has to deal with them. My hat's off to Kevin and crew for keeping things rolling, and I'm glad that the headaches are theirs to deal with and not mine. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
if messageChunk(someText, (?.)BODY(.+)/BODY, tStart, tEnd) then -- do something with the text here end if ...and, of course, that should be (?s) instead of (?.) -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. I would have to say MM Flash is positioned at the beginner and very advanced users. -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Richard Gaskin wrote: Gray Matter used to be that source, but they closed their doors many years ago, and today only Macromedia themselves can afford to be the central repository. Yeah, and the guy that ran Gray Matter was a crook. Took a bunch of money from us, and others. Turns out he's now wanted in many states. I was at a conference he was giving a talk at, and the police came and escorted him to jail. Couldn't stop from smiling. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
It would be interesting to see some statistics from the company re: regular, paying customers and per license type. Perhaps the reality is counter-intuitive, but to what extent does Rev have an in with the big programming companies? It seems a conundrum. It would seem that the company has already tapped all the low-hanging fruit of the HC/SC/hobbyist crowd, yet at the same time does not seem poised to make big inroads in the programming community at large. Judy On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Richard Gaskin wrote: It costs far more to acquire five new DreamCard customers than it does to simply renew an Enterprise license. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Graphic Design Tools
Hmmm, but for really simple stuff (and the ability to translate from and two ~75 or more graphic file formats), there's nothing like the shareware program GraphicConverter: http://www.lemkesoft.de Love it... It's no Photoshop, but if you don't quite need Photoshop and, in any event, can't afford it... Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 7:13:30 PM, you wrote: I wasn't referring to the free and old C++ available. Recently, they had Learning Editions of All their current development tools - Delphi, C++, Kylix, Java. Well, let's see... C++ Builder *30-day trial* version 6 is dated March 2002 The Kylix *trial* versions are dated from mid-2002 (version 3) The JBuilder versions are current but only run for 30 days Delphi Personal is not downloadable but is available through select publications, as is Borland C++ Builder Personal. ...or you can purchase Delphi starting at $1090 on up to $3490. C++ Builder lists for $927 (pro) and $2117 (enterprise) Entry level JBuilder is $499 Maybe you were thinking of Microsoft? They offered a Learning Edition of VB at the student pricing of $50. Then end-of-lifed the product. Mind you, I like Borland's compilers. But the Turbo Pascal days, or even the Turbo C days, are behind them now. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
Richard Gaskin wrote: Thank you, Jacque, for having the vision and perseverence to pull that off, and the attention to detail to do it so well. What a kind thing to say, thanks so much. Ditto to Ken, Sarah, and Mark. It's true that the conferences were a major effort, but it was something I believed in very strongly and I wanted to do it. There was a need for a set of beginner tutorials and it was something I could help with. But none of it could have happened without the authors who worked so hard on their stacks and materials. We had a truly inspired set of knowledgeable people and everyone gave it their finest effort. So kudos to all of you too -- because we would have had nothing without you. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Good question, Mark. I'm not sure RunRev is falling down with respect to either market at this point because neither market has yet reched the point where its demands pose a problem. If you run through Bugzilla and this list I think you'd find that the vast majority of current users are inventive users (glad you like that phrase; I invented it back in the HyperCard heyday) and that among newcomers to Rev out of that audience there's generally a significant amount of initial confusion and consternation that only dissipates with some extensive exposure to the product. Until recently, I suspect most new Rev users were HyperRefugees, but I have a sense that in the recent past -- say the last six months or so -- that has started to shift and more Inventive Users who are discovering Rev without an HC background are coming into the mix. As that happens, there will be even greater pressure on RunRev to find new ways of introducing these people to the concepts and uses of Rev. I have always felt that RunRev ought to focus pretty exclusively on the Inventive User market and I've not only expounded that idea here, I've laid it out in some detail. I do not claim that I think this is a present issue, but I have a sense that it is going to become one as the market expands. On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:03 PM, Mark Smith wrote: Dan, this is an innocent question, not intended to provoke or contradict, but where do you think Rev is currently falling down with regard to either pro developers or inventive users? ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Richard On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Pros need pro tools, and even hobbysts aspire to professional- looking results. A strategy that appeals to the high end will appeal to both. Ultimately, that's probably true. It's another way of saying Inventive Users eventually become more like pros. But Inventive Users (hobbyists in your parlance) need hand-holding of a different type and depth at the beginning of their experience with Rev and that's where the problems arise. To the degree this is a result of focusing on the pro product maybe that's not so bad. My perspective is admittedly skewed, being dependent on the pro product to manage the three businesses in which I'm CTO: I'd hate to see any slowdown of bug fixes or feature enhancements in the engine to make a prettier entry-level tool. And you just put your finger on another problem for RunRev, didn't you? :-) I maintain that without a significant improvement in the out-of-the- box experience for DC, the company will never reach broad enough appeal to reach critical mass among the Inventive User marketplace. But it's clear to both of us that if they divert resources to that task, development of the pro version will undoubtedly suffer at least delays. That's precisely the trade-off that they will ultimately have to make. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
You put your finger on it for me, Richard. I developed a detailed strategy for doing just this for another company (one that's no longer in business, not because they adopted my proposal) and have shared that with RunRev privately. There is a model I believe would work but it requires RunRev to focus *its* efforts 100% on the Inventive User market while both leveraging and honoring the pro developer base. On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: I would wholeheartedly support a move by RunRev to spin off the pro product to someone else if they find themselves too encumbered with other considerations to handle it effectively. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Kudos to Jacque for the Script Conferences
Here, here! Bravo! Well-done and badly needed. On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Thank you, Jacque, for having the vision and perseverence to pull that off, and the attention to detail to do it so well. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Handling Returned Virus Mail
Scott Rossi wrote: Over the last week I've been inundated (yet again) with a tidal wave of bounced virus email messages. Of course I did not initiate any of the original messages -- I'm receiving the bounced attempts and server notices as a result of virus propagation. I am routinely inundated with these. Two weeks ago I accumulated 8 megs of bounced mail in 24 hours. Another rarely-used mailbox gets about ten of these a day. Any suggestions on how to combat this problem? There's no way to stop it, of course. If you have spam filter control on your server, you can direct them to dev/null based on the subject, filtering on returned mail and mail returned. The down side is that if you really do write to someone and it bounces, you'll never know. What I do is filter on those two strings within my email program (rather than on the server,) directing them to a junk folder, and then scan through them occasionally to make sure they aren't from anyone I recognize. It's a pain no matter how you deal with it though. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Handling Returned Virus Mail
From: Scott Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Handling Returned Virus Mail Over the last week I've been inundated (yet again) with a tidal wave of bounced virus email messages. Of course I did not initiate any of the original messages -- I'm receiving the bounced attempts and server notices as a result of virus propagation. Any suggestions on how to combat this problem? Just set your filter to intercept any returned emails, and delete them from the server without downloading. If you aren't sending them out in the first place, why would you want to read the bogus bounce notices anyway? Jerry ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
That's a wonderful sentiment and a princely idea, Michael. But it would pose a serious administrative nightmare, particularly for software downloaded over the Net where you can't even know where the buyer resides! I have on more than one occasion made one of my products available to someone who emailed me privately and said they needed or wanted it but just couldn't afford it. Maybe if there were a clearing-house of some sort for Third World software needs, some kind of plan could be put into place. But as others have said here in different ways -- and as you well know -- the total cost involved in providing software to a customer is often much larger than the initial fee. Support costs can kill you. And if your customers don't speak English as a primary language and are working on dialup systems at best, support could turn into a real sink hole. On Nov 25, 2005, at 2:04 PM, Michael Lew wrote: I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I agree, Alex, but they remain two separate products. Last I checked, you can't buy Elements and then get credit for an upgrade to Photoshop. In that way, they are similar to Apple's iMovie-Final Cut Pro and GarageBand-Logic Pro product mixes. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:35 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: I think I'd count Adobe - Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. I think they're both variants of the same basic product - you might even want to call Elements a cut-down, crippled version of Photoshop - but it seems to me like they are basically the same product / same code base. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank... On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Frank R wrote: But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Why? This kind of dialog is helpful and meaningful and for a lot of us who develop in Rev, this is the only place we can discuss such topics! ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: [OT] Handling Returned Virus Mail
Scott And I thought mac users were not affected by window viruses ;) We get 80K viruses or spam hits a day at work... and the percentage of spam hits is alluring! Virii are not negligent either... Here's a few rules: Virii: Attachments, JavaScripts Not sent to you from address doesn't match the originators server domain or topsite url Attachments: (exe, zip, rar, doc, vbs, wmi, etc...) SPAM: Not sent to you from address doesn't match the originators server domain or topsite url Title words do not match dictionary and some are obfuscated alphanumerics Title words match spam dictionary (pharmacy, p1-lls, v1a-gra etc... Now, people send jokes to their friends via the cc field (so spammers don't catch the list full of new email addresses thanks to the careless jokers or gullible chain letters responders)... What kind of server is this? On Behalf Of Jerry Muelver From: Scott Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Handling Returned Virus Mail Over the last week I've been inundated (yet again) with a tidal wave of bounced virus email messages. Of course I did not initiate any of the original messages -- I'm receiving the bounced attempts and server notices as a result of virus propagation. Any suggestions on how to combat this problem? Just set your filter to intercept any returned emails, and delete them from the server without downloading. If you aren't sending them out in the first place, why would you want to read the bogus bounce notices anyway? Jerry ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Trying to change the subject ... :) ... Docs / Videos / Speed Of Thought book
As the author of the work in question, I'm probably not entirely objective, but my *hope* is that my book is a lot more like an O'Reilly title than it is a walkthrough of the IDE. In fact, it doesn't even include an IDE walk-through. OTOH, it is certainly not for the experienced professional Rev coder, but rather for beginning to intermediate developers. In fact, I've had this question come up a few times so tonight I uploaded the Preface to my main Rev site as a free download. You can read the Preface and get an idea who I wrote the book for and what it includes. http://www.revolutionpros.com Click on My Stuff. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Frank R wrote: Do you have the Speed Of Thought book? I'm an advanced developer - who's an obvious beginner with this tool. Is that book for me? I'm looking for an O'Reilly-type book for Dreamcard, not a hold-my-hand-while-we-walk-through-the- IDE-with-lots-of-pretty-screen-shots-and-cute-jokes book. Which one is Speed Of Thought? ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Chipp I would have agreed until the last two revs. I am not personally acquainted with the situation, but several friends of mine who teach and study multimedia development at our local university have complained bitterly to me in the past year about how MM has made development in Flash all but inaccessible to folks who don't grok scripting. I'm not sure how they've managed to do this -- or if it's just a perception -- but it's hurt them in this university curriculum. OTOH, that group is now investigating Rev, so all is not lost! On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:22 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. I would have to say MM Flash is positioned at the beginner and very advanced users. -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Really? Man, I knew that guy when he was at Macromedia. I can't remember his name off hand, but that's a startling story. Dan On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: Gray Matter used to be that source, but they closed their doors many years ago, and today only Macromedia themselves can afford to be the central repository. Yeah, and the guy that ran Gray Matter was a crook. Took a bunch of money from us, and others. Turns out he's now wanted in many states. I was at a conference he was giving a talk at, and the police came and escorted him to jail. Couldn't stop from smiling. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Graphic Design Tools
Judy Wow. Would you believe this? I've owned a GraphicConverter license for years and I never knew it could create or modify graphics. All I've ever used it for is converting from one format to another! ::Sound of open palm smiting forehead:: I just opened it and I actually think I could learn to use it to do all the graphic stuff I've always said I didn't know how to do. I owe you a Latte (or other non-alcoholic drink of your choice) next time you're in Monterey (who knows when THAT might be, hmm?). ;-) On Nov 26, 2005, at 9:49 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Hmmm, but for really simple stuff (and the ability to translate from and two ~75 or more graphic file formats), there's nothing like the shareware program GraphicConverter: http://www.lemkesoft.de Love it... It's no Photoshop, but if you don't quite need Photoshop and, in any event, can't afford it... Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan Shafer wrote: I maintain that without a significant improvement in the out-of-the- box experience for DC, the company will never reach broad enough appeal to reach critical mass among the Inventive User marketplace. One can hope. Another reason the readers of this list are glad I have no control over the product: I feel Rev is too valuable to share too broadly, a strategic competitive advantage I would prefer to keep among my clients and my friends' clients. Tarting it all over town for just $99 gives too much away. ;) -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan Shafer wrote regarding Flash: I would have agreed until the last two revs. I am not personally acquainted with the situation, but several friends of mine who teach and study multimedia development at our local university have complained bitterly to me in the past year about how MM has made development in Flash all but inaccessible to folks who don't grok scripting. I'm not sure how they've managed to do this -- or if it's just a perception -- but it's hurt them in this university curriculum. And yet while those inventive users suffer, there were never enough of them to keep Adobe LiveMotion alive. As Scott Rossi can attest and I'll toss in a hearty Amen!, LiveMotion was truly Flash for the rest of us. Everyone who ever spent more than 20 minutes with both agreed that LiveMotion was far more accessible. Borrowing the best of After Effects' award-winning timeline, LiveMotion made simple and immediate sense out of so many things that were insanely arcane in Flash. It didn't offer the full range of dynamic programming capabilities as Flash had, but LiveMotion made short work of animations and basic interactivity, certainly enough to handle much of what Flash is commonly used for. But at the end of the day, Adobe couldn't find enough users who didn't prefer the more professionally-oriented Flash to justify keeping LiveMotion alive. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Graphic Design Tools
I too still cherish my Lemke CD - I should frame it! Best shareware out there for graphics... For the story, thanks to GraphickConverter I translated some thousands of images from my mac to my PC, including icons or to ico format. PowerFull Tool - paint tools where not as nice as Adobe's bigger program but for the price and footprint, nothing came close to it! For PCs, I recommend ACDSee - ultrafast browser, powerful catalog and nice editor. Photoshop still rules... cheers X -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Shafer Sent: Sunday, 27 November, 2005 08:25 To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Graphic Design Tools Judy Wow. Would you believe this? I've owned a GraphicConverter license for years and I never knew it could create or modify graphics. All I've ever used it for is converting from one format to another! ::Sound of open palm smiting forehead:: I just opened it and I actually think I could learn to use it to do all the graphic stuff I've always said I didn't know how to do. I owe you a Latte (or other non-alcoholic drink of your choice) next time you're in Monterey (who knows when THAT might be, hmm?). ;-) On Nov 26, 2005, at 9:49 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Hmmm, but for really simple stuff (and the ability to translate from and two ~75 or more graphic file formats), there's nothing like the shareware program GraphicConverter: http://www.lemkesoft.de Love it... It's no Photoshop, but if you don't quite need Photoshop and, in any event, can't afford it... Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
OT - My Views on Rev Marketing
The current thread on how Rev should be priced and marketed led to several people -- one here on the list and a few others in private communication -- asking me for my views on the subject because I mentioned I had studied this kind of market several years ago for a defunct client. Rather than burden this list with that lengthy report, I've posted it at my Revolution site for those who are sufficiently masochistic to want to read what I said more than four years ago on the subject. http://www.revolutionpros.com Click on Views If you want to discuss it further, rather than clutter up this list, please feel free to go to http://www.eclecticity.com (my blog) and post a response to my pointer post there. I now return you to your regularly unscheduled programming. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
