Re: HyperCard for the iPad
It may be an excessively pessimistic point of view, but one doubts you'll get away with it long term. The problem Apple has is that applications and content are merging. Sooner or later, to continue its present policies, it is going to have to move to censorship of what we now call content, but what you guys have made into applications. I don't know how they will do it, how they will avoid all the technical obstacles, but its clear they will either extend control from programming languages and applications to content, or watch the whole policy go up in smoke. They will give it their best shot, to control content. It will be messy, and it will get worse before it gets better. I also agree with Richard, they will change a few years from now, and by then it will be too late. -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/HyperCard-for-the-iPad-tp2224439p2225850.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Peter, As regards your point of view, I agree. It may be an excessively pessimistic. Best, Jerry Daniels Create iPad web apps with Rodeo: http://rodeoapps.com On May 21, 2010, at 4:10 AM, Peter Alcibiades palcibiades-fi...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: It may be an excessively pessimistic point of view, but one doubts you'll get away with it long term. The problem Apple has is that applications and content are merging. Sooner or later, to continue its present policies, it is going to have to move to censorship of what we now call content, but what you guys have made into applications. I don't know how they will do it, how they will avoid all the technical obstacles, but its clear they will either extend control from programming languages and applications to content, or watch the whole policy go up in smoke. They will give it their best shot, to control content. It will be messy, and it will get worse before it gets better. I also agree with Richard, they will change a few years from now, and by then it will be too late. -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/HyperCard-for-the-iPad-tp2224439p2225850.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Been thinking about what inspired me more than anything to do the Rodeo project in the face of the Apple lock down and its psychological devastation. Here it is in one picture: http://jerrydaniels.com/brendans-action-formula Best, Jerry Daniels Create iPad web apps with Rodeo: http://rodeoapps.com On May 21, 2010, at 8:02 AM, Jerry Daniels jerry.dani...@me.com wrote: Peter, As regards your point of view, I agree. It may be an excessively pessimistic. Best, Jerry Daniels ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
HyperCard for the iPad
This has been troubling me. Steve jobs is reputed to have said: “Something like HyperCard on the iPad? Yes, but someone would have to create it” at the Apple’s shareholder meetinghttp://www.macworld.com/article/146739/2010/02/2010appleshareholdermtg.htmlsome time in early 2010. The closest source to this I can find is herehttp://www.macworld.com/article/146739/2010/02/2010appleshareholdermtg.html(the relevant section below is at the bottom of the article): As usual, there were also a number of off-beat comments and questions, ranging from suggestions that Apple invest in Tesla Motors (Jobs: “We were thinking of a toga party, actually”) to a request for a flagship Apple Store in Cupertino (“I’ll pass that on to our retail team”), to a suggestion that Apple partner with Nintendo (strategic alliances are hard, but possible if it’s worth it), to a desire for a simple programming language on the iPad (“Something like HyperCard on the iPad? Yes, but someone would have to create it”). Jobs declined to comment on the possibility of a Verizon-network iPhone. So it was a casual remark - not thought through maybe? I'd be tempted to be generous on this one - and figure that he meant what he said. If so it would be real interesting to ask on what legal and technical basis someone could do that. I don't think his answer would be along Rodeo lines - that is you'd have to create web app's. So perhaps it is worth asking along which lines a real HyperCard app could be made on the iPhone? How about a community drafted letter - one directed specifically at this question and to clarify his thinking on this? What would such a letter look like? Which is the best open platform out there to draft such a letter together and collect signatures? NB - I'd be tempted to think that one possible answer which would square the circle (with regard to Apples concerns with a middle layer lock in) - is if the HyperCard app on the iPhone was open source. Then there would be no lock-in against Apples interest as if they or any Apple developers wanted to improve and add platform specific features they would have the power to do that? That is surely part of the logic behind why JavaScript is OK. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
I agree and put my signature, but for iPad ! René Le 20 mai 2010 à 14:34, David Bovill a écrit : This has been troubling me. Steve jobs is reputed to have said: “Something like HyperCard on the iPad? Yes, but someone would have to create it” at the Apple’s shareholder meetinghttp://www.macworld.com/article/146739/2010/02/2010appleshareholdermtg.htmlsome time in early 2010. The closest source to this I can find is herehttp://www.macworld.com/article/146739/2010/02/2010appleshareholdermtg.html(the relevant section below is at the bottom of the article): As usual, there were also a number of off-beat comments and questions, ranging from suggestions that Apple invest in Tesla Motors (Jobs: “We were thinking of a toga party, actually”) to a request for a flagship Apple Store in Cupertino (“I’ll pass that on to our retail team”), to a suggestion that Apple partner with Nintendo (strategic alliances are hard, but possible if it’s worth it), to a desire for a simple programming language on the iPad (“Something like HyperCard on the iPad? Yes, but someone would have to create it”). Jobs declined to comment on the possibility of a Verizon-network iPhone. So it was a casual remark - not thought through maybe? I'd be tempted to be generous on this one - and figure that he meant what he said. If so it would be real interesting to ask on what legal and technical basis someone could do that. I don't think his answer would be along Rodeo lines - that is you'd have to create web app's. So perhaps it is worth asking along which lines a real HyperCard app could be made on the iPhone? How about a community drafted letter - one directed specifically at this question and to clarify his thinking on this? What would such a letter look like? Which is the best open platform out there to draft such a letter together and collect signatures? NB - I'd be tempted to think that one possible answer which would square the circle (with regard to Apples concerns with a middle layer lock in) - is if the HyperCard app on the iPhone was open source. Then there would be no lock-in against Apples interest as if they or any Apple developers wanted to improve and add platform specific features they would have the power to do that? That is surely part of the logic behind why JavaScript is OK. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
David Bovill wrote: So perhaps it is worth asking along which lines a real HyperCard app could be made on the iPhone? Jeanne DeVoto shared this link with the improve-rev list recently, a blog written by someone who used to work at Apple who applies the insights from his history there to this iPhone OS debacle: http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2010/05/apple-adobe-and-openness-lets-get-real.html The crux of his entry is: So the real situation around Flash is that Apple won't permit most other platforms on iPhone (no matter how innocuous they are) because it thinks they threaten its survival, while Adobe wants its platform on iPhone so it can set a de facto standard and make money from it. Neither company is really focused on protecting developers or users as its main goal; they are fighting over who gets to use developers to make money. I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Someone may do it, but given that Apple recently cited their mobile market share at only 16.1% it ain't gonna be anyone I know. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
totally agree. plus: totally fit for the iPhone/iPad. But we may see this someday. See this (sorta funny) blogpost http://www.tuaw.com/2010/05/18/when-jobs-says-no-we-hear-maybe-heres-why/ Le 20 mai 2010 à 16:36, Richard Gaskin a écrit : David Bovill wrote: So perhaps it is worth asking along which lines a real HyperCard app could be made on the iPhone? Jeanne DeVoto shared this link with the improve-rev list recently, a blog written by someone who used to work at Apple who applies the insights from his history there to this iPhone OS debacle: http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2010/05/apple-adobe-and-openness-lets-get-real.html The crux of his entry is: So the real situation around Flash is that Apple won't permit most other platforms on iPhone (no matter how innocuous they are) because it thinks they threaten its survival, while Adobe wants its platform on iPhone so it can set a de facto standard and make money from it. Neither company is really focused on protecting developers or users as its main goal; they are fighting over who gets to use developers to make money. I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Someone may do it, but given that Apple recently cited their mobile market share at only 16.1% it ain't gonna be anyone I know. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
MJ and I were just discussing the fact that the entire iPad itself is HyperCard-like. The original HyperCard, that is. Think about it...there are no windows, there's just a screen. It's got the Home stack and everything. It's fairly modal, also. Best, Jerry Daniels Use tRev's buy link during your 7 day free trial to get 20% off: http://reveditor.com/tag/shouldiswitch On May 20, 2010, at 9:53 AM, François Chaplais wrote: totally agree. plus: totally fit for the iPhone/iPad. But we may see this someday. See this (sorta funny) blogpost http://www.tuaw.com/2010/05/18/when-jobs-says-no-we-hear-maybe-heres-why/ Le 20 mai 2010 à 16:36, Richard Gaskin a écrit : David Bovill wrote: So perhaps it is worth asking along which lines a real HyperCard app could be made on the iPhone? Jeanne DeVoto shared this link with the improve-rev list recently, a blog written by someone who used to work at Apple who applies the insights from his history there to this iPhone OS debacle: http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2010/05/apple-adobe-and-openness-lets-get-real.html The crux of his entry is: So the real situation around Flash is that Apple won't permit most other platforms on iPhone (no matter how innocuous they are) because it thinks they threaten its survival, while Adobe wants its platform on iPhone so it can set a de facto standard and make money from it. Neither company is really focused on protecting developers or users as its main goal; they are fighting over who gets to use developers to make money. I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/ iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Someone may do it, but given that Apple recently cited their mobile market share at only 16.1% it ain't gonna be anyone I know. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Jerry Daniels wrote: MJ and I were just discussing the fact that the entire iPad itself is HyperCard-like. The original HyperCard, that is. Think about it...there are no windows, there's just a screen. It's got the Home stack and everything. It's fairly modal, also. GMTA: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv?pid=1271027459.853063 :) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Richard Gaskin wrote: I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Kevin offered to do exactly that, and was still refused. It's in his blog post. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
now, when RevMobile runs on the future android devices, we'll take over the world and jobs will fired from apple and found a company called NeXTAgaIN just to ship some products called NextPad Turbo NextPhoneCube and be bought by Apple when His Steveness will be again CEO, rinse, repeat On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 12:46 PM, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.comwrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Kevin offered to do exactly that, and was still refused. It's in his blog post. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
On 20 May 2010 16:46, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Kevin offered to do exactly that, and was still refused. It's in his blog post. Yes he did - and I don't agree it is about exclusivity - it is about not being locked into the lower common denominator. It is about the apps being better on the iPad than they are on anything else - and the danger is that the opposite would happen over time - as it has before with Apple based software. This still leaves space for open environments though - as an open environment would not be outside of Apples control in the same way. There may be other ways? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
On 20 May 2010 16:57, Andre Garzia an...@andregarzia.com wrote: now, when RevMobile runs on the future android devices, we'll take over the world and jobs will fired from apple and found a company called NeXTAgaIN just to ship some products called NextPad Turbo NextPhoneCube and be bought by Apple when His Steveness will be again CEO, rinse, repeat Can you put that in revTalk? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
David Bovill wrote: On 20 May 2010 16:46, J. Landman Gay jacque at hyperactivesw.com wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Kevin offered to do exactly that, and was still refused. It's in his blog post. What Kevin wrote there is: In order to support our active and growing revMobile customer base, we submitted an in-depth proposal to Apple that we create an iPhone-only product that uses native Cocoa objects, supports 100% of their API, works perfectly with multitasking and battery life, but uses a variant of the revTalk language to use these objects and APIs, and then translates those into native code. So I see where his pitch was for an iPhone-specific version of the engine, but in my reading it's unclear whether that necessarily precludes making a similar engine for other platforms. Blowing off the other 83.9% of the mobile market (Apple says they have only 16.1%) just to appease His Steveness would have been suicidal, so if that was the intent we can all be glad the proposal was rejected. The beauty of the Rev engine is that it liberates us from the whims of any single OS vendor. OSes come and go, but if it stays true to its mandate there will always be Rev. Yes he did - and I don't agree it is about exclusivity - it is about not being locked into the lower common denominator. It is about the apps being better on the iPad than they are on anything else - and the danger is that the opposite would happen over time - as it has before with Apple based software. Whether it's apps or app features, the goal is the same: exclusivity for iPhone OS. Steve seems worried that Apple can't deliver an unquestionably superior experience on their own, and can only differentiate itself from other mobile offerings by arbitrarily raising development costs high enough that developers will have to choose between his mobile OS and the rest of the world. Big gamble. After all, it's not like the rest of the desktop OSes don't have overlapping windows, and it's not like other mobile OSes don't have accelerometers, GPS, and multitouch. If Steve can't come up with compelling differentiators, it's not Kevin's or any developer's fault. Yet its developers who are being asked to pay the price for Apple's need to differentiate: either double your development costs with two code bases, or lower your revenue by deploying only to iPhone OS. There is indeed a radical revolution afoot, but not of the sort the lay press is enamored of with their talk of The End of The Computer with some sort of replacement being more specialized devices like iPad. The real revolution is the ever-increasing commoditization of operating systems. There, I said it. Operating systems are becoming ever more similar to one another, and there's nothing any of them can do to slow that down. It's as natural, pervasive, and unstoppable as the migration from AppleTalk to TCP/IP. If this makes Steve uneasy he's missing the point of what Apple does: Apple's OS X isn't the only OS with deeply integrated search, or the only one with good multitasking, or even the only one with the strength of having Unix at its core. What Apple brings to the table is that they make BOTH the OS and the hardware, and therefore have an unmatched harmony between the two. I think that's worth paying for. Indeed, I'm typing this on a Mac. If Steve thinks he needs to push hard on developers to differentiate Apple products, he's missing the point. There are less expensive ways to communicate the value Apple delivers than forcing developers to move to Android. Hopefully he'll find a way to communicate that, and lighten up a bit on developers. In the meantime I'm happily writing my single-code-base apps for Mac, Win, and Linux, and look forward to Android, Maemo, WinMobile, and anyone else who joins the Rev revolution. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
RunRev's recent proposed approach would have forced RevMobile to be iPhone/iPad only. That isn't the issue. Bob On May 20, 2010, at 7:36 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Someone may do it, but given that Apple recently cited their mobile market share at only 16.1% it ain't gonna be anyone I know. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Apple's OS X isn't the only OS with deeply integrated search, or the only one with good multitasking, or even the only one with the strength of having Unix at its core. No the best OS in terms of integrated search, multitasking and having some unix features at its core is Haiku. Nothing beats BFS queries. -- http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
I agree with Bob here Richard. On 20 May 2010 19:00, Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com wrote: RunRev's recent proposed approach would have forced RevMobile to be iPhone/iPad only. That isn't the issue. It is not exclusivity that is being asked for. It does not matter that Rev was offered for one platform or many. It does not matter that the same game are developed for iPhone and other platforms - exclusivity is not at all the issue. The issue is control. Control to ensure that the lockin does not migrate to any software platform that is offering pan-platform middleware - whether that be Adobe or RunRev. The fear is that cross platform development incentivises prioritising the lowest common development, and the largest installed user base - which by most accounts will soon be Android. Apple thinks it has an edge by competing on the basis of design quality and constant innovation in the hardware and OS - which it needs to trickle down to developers. If a tool maker does not implement the latest features fast enough then the cutting edge products are dragged down waiting for the tool makers to implement features, which they are only motivated to do when the market is big enough. So the fear, which is justified IMO, is in lock-in to proprietary middle ware that Apple does not and cannot control. The question I am asking is are there not other ways to square the circle - and would open source be one of those ways? If it were then you might expect some of those iPhone platforms that export modifiable / open source code to be accepted some time soon. Are there other ways in which a HyperCard like app can be created which does not involve lock-in out side of Apples control? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Yes, mostly agree with this. The link quotes earlier says: I was working at Apple when this process happened, and I can tell you that it was searing. Apple had invested countless hours and dollars marketing those products as prominent reasons to buy Macs, and then we saw that investment turned against us when the apps were made available on Windows. You see the mentality - and I say this as a former Mac user, sometimes accused of being a Mac Fanatic in the day. The problem is they are under this fatal illusion that what you do is invent a must have app, keep it to your platform, and then force people who do not want your platform on its merits, to buy it so as to get your must have apps. What you then find is this tension between app and platform. Filemaker, for instance, says that we could sell a ton of this if we can do a Windows version. The hardware people probably say today, we could sell a ton more hardware if only we could put Windows on it. The OS people say that they could sell a whole bunch more if only they could allow it to run on third party hardware. Someplace in Cupertino there is Politbureau sayinging no, life is as it was in 1985 Alas, it is not. -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/HyperCard-for-the-iPad-tp2224439p2225138.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
David Bovill wrote: I agree with Bob here Richard. On 20 May 2010 19:00, Bob Sneidar bobs at twft.com wrote: RunRev's recent proposed approach would have forced RevMobile to be iPhone/iPad only. That isn't the issue. It is not exclusivity that is being asked for. It does not matter that Rev was offered for one platform or many. It does not matter that the same game are developed for iPhone and other platforms - exclusivity is not at all the issue. The issue is control. Control to ensure that the lockin does not migrate to any software platform that is offering pan-platform middleware - whether that be Adobe or RunRev. The fear is that cross platform development incentivises prioritising the lowest common development, and the largest installed user base - which by most accounts will soon be Android. Apple thinks it has an edge by competing on the basis of design quality and constant innovation in the hardware and OS - which it needs to trickle down to developers. If a tool maker does not implement the latest features fast enough then the cutting edge products are dragged down waiting for the tool makers to implement features, which they are only motivated to do when the market is big enough. So the fear, which is justified IMO, is in lock-in to proprietary middle ware that Apple does not and cannot control. It seems this post got lost in the shuffle: http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/140366.html Not every app needs coverflow. What most of the world needs is well supported by most OSes. That's what we do here with Rev: make a lot of people happy delivering the features they need, regardless which OS they use. And that's what we'll be doing with mobile OSes too. I agree it's unfortunate that Steve is locking iPhone customers out of the thousands of vertical-market apps that the rest of the world will enjoy, but if Kevin can't convince him to play ball I don't imagine I could either. Steve is free to be Steve, and I'm free to choose profitable deployment options. ;) I'll step out on a limb to predict that within three years Steve will get over himself and lighten up on this unprecedented restriction. But I'll go further to suggest that by then it'll be too late to help him. The question I am asking is are there not other ways to square the circle - and would open source be one of those ways? If it were then you might expect some of those iPhone platforms that export modifiable / open source code to be accepted some time soon. Are there other ways in which a HyperCard like app can be created which does not involve lock-in out side of Apples control? Sure: deploy to Android. :) On iPhone OS, apparently you're allowed to use runtime-interpreted instructions only if you name your app Bento, Numbers, or GameSalad. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
On 20/05/2010 22:10, Peter Alcibiades wrote: snip Someplace in Cupertino there is Politbureau sayinging no, life is as it was in 1985 Alas, it is not. No, it isn't 1985; but in North Korea it is somewhere round about 1950; in China it is a real case of mixed calendars, and in Venezuela they are trying Back to the future. The fact that this happens in socking great companies as well does not surprise me in the slightest. They shot Stalin and Beria; only to replace him with Khruschev; who, while looking plausible was the man who supervised the slave labourers (political dissidents) building the Moscow Metro, and used to whip his pistol out and shoot people who flagged. Hitler saved somebody the bother; the West had a jolly show trial and shot a lot of totalitarian types; but let Spain go on its foul way under Franco until he died. So; as Apple seems very much a top-down sort of organisation, replacing Steve Jobs would only mean finding another of the same. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Be fair, these are not *general purpose* interpreters. There are many calculator apps, if you want to go this way. On iPhone OS, apparently you're allowed to use runtime-interpreted instructions only if you name your app Bento, Numbers, or GameSalad. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
François Chaplais wrote: Be fair, these are not *general purpose* interpreters. There are many calculator apps, if you want to go this way. On iPhone OS, apparently you're allowed to use runtime-interpreted instructions only if you name your app Bento, Numbers, or GameSalad. True, and if SDK 4 had specifically excluded only Turing-complete languages these exceptions would be more easily understood. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
On 20 May 2010, at 16:46, J. Landman Gay wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: I believe Apple would allow a HyperCard-like app for the iPhone/ iPad only if they could have complete assurances it would be available EXCLUSIVELY for iPhone OS. Kevin offered to do exactly that, and was still refused. It's in his blog post. Important distinction - Runrev offered to do a *dev environment* that would build exclusively for the iPhone/iPad. At no point has Runrev (to my knowledge) offered to build something equivalent to Hypercard *ON* the iPad. Probably because it would immediately fall foul of 'no interpreted code' and would be a end-user product in the first place. At the moment the only way I can see a Hypercard equivalent on the iPad would be if it then used Webkit as a VM, so in effect it's output would be HTML/JS/CSS. Which would then make it rather hard to transfer stacks to other people. Jerry's eventual plan for an iPad front-end to edit Rodeo apps online is about the closest I've heard of from anyone, on this list or anywhere else. Ian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
On 20 May 2010, at 18:08, Richard Gaskin wrote: Blowing off the other 83.9% of the mobile market (Apple says they have only 16.1%) just to appease His Steveness would have been suicidal, so if that was the intent we can all be glad the proposal was rejected. 16% of the market that make up half the mobile web traffic and (at least back in January) an estimated 97% of all mobile app sales. http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/apples-app-store-said-to-have-99-4-percent-of-all-mobile-app-sa/ I've not managed to find estimates that are more recent, but that's a scary ratio for anyone hoping to make money from Android apps as an alternative to the iPhone/iPad. :-( Ian ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Ian Wood wrote: On 20 May 2010, at 18:08, Richard Gaskin wrote: Blowing off the other 83.9% of the mobile market (Apple says they have only 16.1%) just to appease His Steveness would have been suicidal, so if that was the intent we can all be glad the proposal was rejected. 16% of the market that make up half the mobile web traffic and (at least back in January) an estimated 97% of all mobile app sales. http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/apples-app-store-said-to-have-99-4-percent-of-all-mobile-app-sa/ I've not managed to find estimates that are more recent, but that's a scary ratio for anyone hoping to make money from Android apps as an alternative to the iPhone/iPad. :-( The night is young. :) That same Gartner report also notes: 82% of downloads will be free apps this year http://www.dailytech.com/Gartner+Predicts+62B+in+Mobile+App+Sales+for+2010/article17444.htm Other Gartner reports: Gartner: Android outsold iPhone in the US http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/05/19/gartner.sees.android.passing.iphone.worldwide.soon/ Android to overtake iPhone in 2012 - analyst Symbian still on top, but BlackBerry down http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/10/09/android_2012_gartner/ That said, if there's a case to be made that RunRev is on a fool's errand chasing the mobile market and should instead focus on their desktop product, I wouldn't be disappointed. Most of my own mobile plans revolve around JavaScript, and aside from the top 100 apps in Apple's AppStore my desktop apps make far more than the other 200,000 iPhone apps out there, as I noted here on the 4th: http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/139105.html Computers will be around for a while. In fact, a desktop computer is listed as one of the system requirements for the iPad. This new emerging mobile market offers many worthwhile opportunities to compliment deployment across many different computing devices. So much change is in the air I wouldn't bet the farm on any one device from any one manufacturer. The night is young -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: HyperCard for the iPad
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/apples-app-store-said-to-ha ve-99-4-percent-of-all-mobile-app-sa/ I've not managed to find estimates that are more recent, but that's a scary ratio for anyone hoping to make money from Android apps as an alternative to the iPhone/iPad. :-( Still seems room for bogus assumptions here. I havent had a conversation yet with iPhone users who also buy stuff (there are plenty who simply do not buy anything) that hasn't included them lamenting all the useless crap available on the App Store. There are also, I believe a lot of apps which are basically a type of reader for web content, like CNN Mobile - at best something that would be a desktop widget. Im sure all the staff picks and even some actual best sellers are quite good, but I don't believe they represent the bulk of what's available. The more I hear about 200K+ apps, the more I think its 99% limited value and 1% gems (and I have to admit, Ive seen some cool apps the the iPhone). I suspect there will be a crap value on Android, and its possible a large portion of their current 50K+ apps are crap too. But I think someone needs to put a pin in value expectation party hog of 200K apps (or 50K+ apps for that matter). A sort of comparision - I have worked closely with eGames in the past. eGames is the biggest value games producer in the US, based on titles - the biggest supplier of rack jobs. You can buy a disk pack of their stuff for $10 and get something like 500 casual games. I am certain the number of titles they produce entirely dwarfs the likes of Apple and Microsoft. But those numbers do not mean eGames as a software company represents greater value in the software market than Apple or Microsoft. Were I to deploy on Android, I don't think Id be focusing on how many crap apps I can push out there. Instead, Id produce a few apps that have great singular value and uniqueness that I can then market over the hundreds of crap apps that are out there. Think about interesting IP like Plants vs Zombies or Spore, where you are selling sizzle. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Ian, Not surprisingly, I happen to agree with you. I would go so far as to say Rodeo is what people like the original HyperCard team would have done today. Thanks to the kick starters and a modest upsurge in tRev purchases, we have made enough progress on Rodeo to get something in people's hand sooner than we originally thought. We now have a desktop app for the Mac that formats our new LIST code, and sends it to the Rodeo server where it's quickly made into simple (for now) web pages that look great on the iPad. The Mac editor also has a nice preview pane so you can see the fruits of your labor as you code. And don't forget, you can edit your code on the iPad as well as on your Mac. At this point, the iPad is much better suited for tweaking Rodeo apps. I have to say that the LIST scripts are super simple to write, as the iPad target has narrowed the task at hand. We're having fun with this. As exciting as the technology is, I'm even more excited by the career value this will have for thousands of educators, custom developers and even small teams or classes of developers. We are headed for simple, mobile cloud-based development AND deployment for the rest of us. Since the Rodeo team is situated on opposite sides of the globe, we're building in development/test environments and code check-in/out from the get-go. Lone developers, teams and class rooms alike are going to love going to the Rodeo! Rodeo developers who want to share or distribute their apps are all set with several nice options via the web, email, Twitter and some SMS systems. Best, Jerry Daniels Create iPad web apps with Rodeo: http://rodeoapps.com On May 20, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Ian Wood revl...@azurevision.co.uk wrote: Jerry's eventual plan for an iPad front-end to edit Rodeo apps online is about the closest I've heard of from anyone, on this list or anywhere else. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Recently, Jerry Daniels wrote: We now have a desktop app for the Mac that formats our new LIST code, and sends it to the Rodeo server where it's quickly made into simple (for now) web pages that look great on the iPad. The Mac editor also has a nice preview pane so you can see the fruits of your labor as you code. Maybe I misunderstood some information I read somewhere (not sure if it was a post or one of your videos) but I thought you mentioned something about final iPad apps being delivered as binaries (executables). Is this your (eventual) plan or did I imagine this and Rodeo apps will operate as Web pages? Thanks for the clarification -- after seeing a number of posts here, I think this would be useful for other folks to know besides myself, who suffers from memory loss. Best Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, UX Design ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: HyperCard for the iPad
Hey, Scott! Happy to clarify. Gods willing, we will eventually have an app in the app store that is essentially a browser shell that runs Rodeo web apps. We can then roll anyone else's web pages into an app for them for submission to the app store. Apps with open-ended, unpredictable content are not well received by the app store police, however...so it might have to be an app-app, if you follow me. Clearer? Short term, we're not trying to boil the ocean with our efforts. We just want to get people coding in Rodeo as quickly as we can, even if it's only to create simple apps. Thus my current emphasis on using the web browser on the iPad to deliver Rodeo apps. Best, Jerry Daniels Create iPad web apps with Rodeo: http://rodeoapps.com On May 20, 2010, at 8:01 PM, Scott Rossi sc...@tactilemedia.com wrote: Recently, Jerry Daniels wrote: We now have a desktop app for the Mac that formats our new LIST code, and sends it to the Rodeo server where it's quickly made into simple (for now) web pages that look great on the iPad. The Mac editor also has a nice preview pane so you can see the fruits of your labor as you code. Maybe I misunderstood some information I read somewhere (not sure if it was a post or one of your videos) but I thought you mentioned something about final iPad apps being delivered as binaries (executables). Is this your (eventual) plan or did I imagine this and Rodeo apps will operate as Web pages? Thanks for the clarification -- after seeing a number of posts here, I think this would be useful for other folks to know besides myself, who suffers from memory loss. Best Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, UX Design ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
