Re: [libreoffice-users] which docx format to recommend to MSO Word users?

[Joel Madero]

I always recommend older pre-OOXML formats (2003 Office formats, .doc, 
.xls, etc) because even Microsoft can't keep up with OOXML.



On 9/8/2016 8:53 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

Have been trying to determine what to suggest as preferred/ default file
save format for users stuck in MSO Word, wrt feature support and LO
cross compatibility:

.docx actually has two save file type options for the one extension in
MSO Word:
  - Word Document
  - Strict Open XML Document

I have been searching, reading Wikipedia on the format,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenXML
and as yet have not been able to find definite answers:

a) which is best for LO compatibility ?

b) are there any more/less features in one format or the other:
- in LO ?
- in Word ?


The strict format is an ISO standard and is younger, and may have some
issues on that basis:
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83571

But perhaps it is better anyway?

Thanks for any insight and links you can share,
Zenaan




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[libreoffice-users] which docx format to recommend to MSO Word users?

[Zenaan Harkness]

Have been trying to determine what to suggest as preferred/ default file
save format for users stuck in MSO Word, wrt feature support and LO
cross compatibility:

.docx actually has two save file type options for the one extension in
MSO Word:
 - Word Document
 - Strict Open XML Document

I have been searching, reading Wikipedia on the format,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenXML
and as yet have not been able to find definite answers:

a) which is best for LO compatibility ?

b) are there any more/less features in one format or the other:
   - in LO ?
   - in Word ?


The strict format is an ISO standard and is younger, and may have some
issues on that basis:
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83571

But perhaps it is better anyway?

Thanks for any insight and links you can share,
Zenaan

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 09/08/2016 01:28 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:

On September 8, 2016 06:59:16 PM Bo Siltberg wrote:


As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
error in a one-page document.

The image problems can hit any document, but they do seem to be related
to file size. Or, at least, the larger the file, the more likely the
problems are.

However, it is all very unclear, which is the main reason it is not
officially recognized as a bug (or, perhaps, a series of bugs).

Sometimes I have issues with graphics/photos within the text that are 
high resolution - i.e. 600 to 1200 dpi.  I have a laser printer that 
prints out at 1200 dpi so I tend to make sure that I have the 
graphics/photos are at that resolution and for the physical size on the 
printed paper - 4x6 inches at the maximum resolution for the printer 
that I will use to print a physical copy.  Exporting to PDF files are 
set for maximum of 600 dpi.  The same with my inkjet printers.


SO, that might be part of the file size issue.  Also I either set wrap 
for no-wrap or to wrap on the right of the image.



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[libreoffice-users] Re: Writing large or complex documents

[wiebe]

Philip Jackson wrote
> 109 pages (US Letter size pages)
> 70 illustrations (.png format black and white)
> 21k words
> 
> ...
> 
> Each image was anchored to paragraph (rather than character or page)
> with 'NoWrap'.  I didn't 'mess' with the image frame styles except for
> the captions.

I really start to believe that wrapping is the only thing involved when
re-paginating crashes (or stops unexpected).

In my Q test-document from scratch:
71 pages A4
ONLY 1 image (cloned several times)
19k words
doc. size < 50kB

Optimal page wrap is used and LO stops re-paginating during the process,
reproducible.

I don't think sticking to style sheets or using linked or embedded objects
are the real problem here. What you describe is a welcome alternative to
using "as character" anchoring while avoiding text wrapping. Welcome because
"no wrap" can be defined in all frame styles, making the work flow a lot
easier.

Couldn't resist to test this with a troublesome master document and it looks
good. The only drawback is that I noticed spontaneous resizing of bitmaps
which I did not notice when using "as character" placement.



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[libreoffice-users] cannot install libreoffice 5.2 error 2503 and 2502

[George Dikker]

please advise. Onward and upward.
George
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RE: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[toki]

Kracked Press wrote:

>I see the postings about the complexity of the documents, but I have not
seen any info about the size of the documents that are part of the
"writing large" statement.

Document length does not correlate with document complexity.

> But how many pages in the document would be considered as the low end for 
> "large
document"?

That depends upon the type of document.

When I did a cut and paste, the tables collapsed.

Words per document.

The first line is, with three exceptions, the number of words in the
document. The three exceptions are words per page.
Words are calculating using standard printing metrics.
The second line is the type of document.

0-100
FictionFactor Micro-fiction
0-7,500
SF Short Story
100-1,000
FictionFactor Flash fiction
250
Words per page for fiction
400
Words per page for academia
832
Words per page, single spaced
1,000
F100 Short Article
1,000-1,500
Length of a ten minute sermon
1,000-2,500
F1000 Medium Article
1,000-7,500
FictionFactor Short story
2,500 – 8,000
F1000 Long Article
4,000-7,000
Kindle candy
8,000-15,000
F1000 Maximum Length Article
17,500-40,000
SF Novella
20,000-30,000
Middle Grade Essay
20,000-50,000
FictionFactor Novella
40,000-50,000
Upper Middle Grade Essay
40,000-60,000
SF Novel from 1960s
40,000-80,000
SF Novel from 1970s
45,000-50,000
How To books
50,000
Comprehensive Report
50,000-110,000
FictionFactor Novel
55,000-90,000
Young Adult Fiction
60,000-70,000
Length of a mystery
64,531
Amazon: median length of all books
7,500-17,500
SF Novelette
7,500-20,000
FictionFactor Novelette
70,000-115,000
Adult Fiction
8
Young Adult SF Novel 2010
90,000-120,000
SF Novel 2015
100,000
PhD Dissertation
100,000
Number of good words that writer writes per year
100,000-115,000
Science Fiction Novel 2010
110,000–10,000,000
Epic Fiction
200,000
Biography
240,000
Short Mega-novel
300,000
Number of words a writer writes per year
100
Average length mega-novel

As such, if you treat software documentation as a "How-To" manual, the
target is roughly 50,000 words.

The caveat is how the target audience is, and why the documentation is
being written.

> that included graphics/photos and other options that makes the document 
> complex one,

Graphics, tables, charts, and illustrations make for complex documents.

>SO, is there any consensus on where is the line drawn for this document
is a large one and this other is not?

Pages per Document

The first line is the number of pages in the document.
The second line is the type of document.
The third line is where that document is used/found.(Document Aim)

1
Cover Letter
Article submission, job application, etc
1
Press Release
Brief information for a broad audience
1
Editorial Preface
Short summary of an issue
1
General Article
Education of the wider public
2
Curriculum Vitae
Career summary
3
IGAS Short
Double spaced short Report
5
Patent
Protection of technical innovation
10
Research Article
Presentation of primary, original results
10
IGAS Standard
Double spaced report
10
Number of pages of a short story
Short Story
15
Training report
Education
15
HAWU Report
Double spaced report
20
Review Article
Review of Knowledge in a domain
20
Expert Report
Analysis of Knowledge
25
IGAS Long Report
Double Spaced report
30
Industrial Report
Research & Development
100
Book
Education
200
Thesis
Research

> Does anyone know any "official"reference about this?

For those two tables, I didn't write down my sources. I started
collecting the information, purely for my own use and benefit.
In theory, I could locate the sources, using either _Google Search_ or
_Google Scholar_.

> that was required to use by writers to be taken as a "professional" in 
> whatever field of study. 

Virtually every field of study has its own style manual. _The Chicago
Manual of Style_ is the usual fallback, for style manuals
developed in, or for the United States. Usually, but not always, the
style manual will state which edition is to be followed.
When a specific edition is not provided, editors get into big fights.

>not know what the new standards are or what is considered a large document and 
>not a "normal sized" one.

The working assumption of current technical documentation manuals, is
that the content will be presented online.
As such, page length is ignored.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

This whole thing has the feel on none linear functions gone out-of-order 
wrong.


That is to say, there are two or more functions that can apply to 
organize placement of images within a document.


Initially, they start at the same time, within the tolerance of the 
processor/motherboard. The more they function, the more they get out of 
sync until it can't complete in the way we wish, but do complete as a 
process.


Some get less failure and others get more.

What is the order of priority and how does it restart on failure? Does 
one wait before doing another?


Any thoughts?



On 9/8/2016 12:59 PM, Bo Siltberg wrote:

I too have that book on the reading list, it's been there for too long now..

As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
error in a one-page document.

Otherwise I guess a document can be as large as it need to be and still be
manageable. There is for example a difference in need between a book
written from top to bottom and a large technical specification which is
updated here and there and that contains internal references back and
forth. It was quite some time since I evaluated the master document
function, maybe it has evolved now to handle navigation and references
better than in the past?


2016-09-08 16:51 GMT+02:00 Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster <
webmas...@krackedpress.com>:


On 09/07/2016 11:02 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:


On September 8, 2016 01:40:46 AM Wiebe van der Worp wrote:





You might also want to take the time to download my book (which is free)
and ready the chapter on frames. It represents my best thinking on this
problem, offering two different approaches, neither of which is
completely satisfactory:

http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/download-buy/

On the whole, the table solution is the most flexible, but having lots
of tables does increase the file size.

Thanks fro the reminder of the book link.

I downloaded it and forgot about it.  I have not had a chance to do more
than a fast look through.

Thanks for your work on this book, as well.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Bruce Byfield]

On September 8, 2016 06:59:16 PM Bo Siltberg wrote:

>As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
>(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
>error in a one-page document.

The image problems can hit any document, but they do seem to be related 
to file size. Or, at least, the larger the file, the more likely the 
problems are.

However, it is all very unclear, which is the main reason it is not 
officially recognized as a bug (or, perhaps, a series of bugs).

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604.421.7189 (Pacific time)
Writer of "Designing with LibreOffice"
http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Bo Siltberg]

I too have that book on the reading list, it's been there for too long now..

As I show in the other thread, the image problem does not seem to be
(solely) related to "large" documents as I could reproduce one kind of
error in a one-page document.

Otherwise I guess a document can be as large as it need to be and still be
manageable. There is for example a difference in need between a book
written from top to bottom and a large technical specification which is
updated here and there and that contains internal references back and
forth. It was quite some time since I evaluated the master document
function, maybe it has evolved now to handle navigation and references
better than in the past?


2016-09-08 16:51 GMT+02:00 Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster <
webmas...@krackedpress.com>:

>
> On 09/07/2016 11:02 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:
>
>> On September 8, 2016 01:40:46 AM Wiebe van der Worp wrote:
>>
> 
>
>> You might also want to take the time to download my book (which is free)
>> and ready the chapter on frames. It represents my best thinking on this
>> problem, offering two different approaches, neither of which is
>> completely satisfactory:
>>
>> http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/download-buy/
>>
>> On the whole, the table solution is the most flexible, but having lots
>> of tables does increase the file size.
>>
>> Thanks fro the reminder of the book link.
>
> I downloaded it and forgot about it.  I have not had a chance to do more
> than a fast look through.
>
> Thanks for your work on this book, as well.
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 09/07/2016 11:02 PM, Bruce Byfield wrote:

On September 8, 2016 01:40:46 AM Wiebe van der Worp wrote:



You might also want to take the time to download my book (which is free)
and ready the chapter on frames. It represents my best thinking on this
problem, offering two different approaches, neither of which is
completely satisfactory:

http://designingwithlibreoffice.com/download-buy/

On the whole, the table solution is the most flexible, but having lots
of tables does increase the file size.


Thanks fro the reminder of the book link.

I downloaded it and forgot about it.  I have not had a chance to do more 
than a fast look through.


Thanks for your work on this book, as well.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writing large or complex documents

[Philip Jackson]

On 07/09/16 22:16, Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:
> For those of us who work with 30 or 40 pages in a document file, plus
> maybe some complex formatting options used, we may consider 40 pages as
> a large document, while others may consider documents need 100 or more
> pages to be a considered large one.
> 
> SO, is there any consensus on where is the line drawn for this document
> is a large one and this other is not?  Does anyone know any "official"
> reference about this?

FWIW on the 'large document' topic. I recently wrote a 'large' (ish ?)
document using LO Writer :

109 pages (US Letter size pages)
70 illustrations (.png format black and white)
21k words

The images were all linked rather than embedded because they too evolved
during the writing process and embedding gets the updates included.

Each image was anchored to paragraph (rather than character or page)
with 'NoWrap'.  I didn't 'mess' with the image frame styles except for
the captions.

Text was all formatted using styles I created to suit my needs.

During the writing / formatting process, the only difficulty I had from
time to time was adjusting the sizes of the images. I didn't find the
graphics position and size boxes in the right hand bar to be very reliable.

I kept the whole document as one single file and loading time was never
a problem. Whenever I added or modified an image, I used File > Reload
which was pretty rapid.

I had a TOC and general index in the file, developed with LO Writer tools.

I flattened all the image links prior to exporting to pdf. Overall the
LO Writer process was pretty good.

Philip


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Internal Bookmarks

[fudmer rieley]

does this solution.. require that all subsequent entries 
made to footnotes must follow the field tabbed sequence?
if not, how does LO distinguish between a field entry and 
and a text entry.. 




On Thu, 9/8/16, Regina Henschel  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Internal Bookmarks
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Date: Thursday, September 8, 2016, 5:10 AM
 
 Hi Jonathan,
 
 Jonathan Allen schrieb:
 > Dear List,
 >
 > A document I am writing needs to have
 internal references in its footnotes
 >
 and I really need to be able to keep these automatically
 up-to-date with
 > the page numbers. 
 They would look this (here ascii-fied):
 >
 >     [176]
 6.4.2 Session Highlights, 47
 >
 > I expect to provide the section number and
 title, but the page number '47'
 >
 in the example above ought to track from the text itself.
 
 Do not write anything
 manually; use "Fields".
 
 >
 > How can I plant the
 marker in the original text and then reference it
 > in the footnote?
 
 There exists a lot of predefined markers, and
 therefore you seldom need 
 to set bookmarks
 manually.
 
 After you have
 used Insert -> Footnote/Endnote your Cursor is in the 
 footnote area. Now use Insert -> Field ->
 More Fields... -> tab "Cross 
 references". In your case you need the
 Type "Headings".
 
 In the part "Selection" select the
 heading for which you will enter a 
 reference. In the part "Insert reference
 to" you can select what 
 information of
 the referenced heading will be shown. In your case you 
 need to insert the reference three times, each
 with a different 
 information. First use
 "Number" to get "6.4.2", second use
 "Reference" 
 to get "Sessions
 Highlights", and third use "Page" to get
 "47".
 
 All will
 update automatically, if you made changes in the text, for
 
 example change the wording of the heading
 or insert/delete text parts 
 which will
 affect the number or page.
 
 Kind regards
 Regina
 
 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Internal Bookmarks

[Jonathan Allen]

Regina,

> After you have used Insert -> Footnote/Endnote your Cursor is in the
> footnote area. Now use Insert -> Field -> More Fields... -> tab
> "Cross references". In your case you need the Type "Headings".
> 
> In the part "Selection" select the heading for which you will enter
> a reference. In the part "Insert reference to" you can select what
> information of the referenced heading will be shown. In your case
> you need to insert the reference three times, each with a different
> information. First use "Number" to get "6.4.2", second use
> "Reference" to get "Sessions Highlights", and third use "Page" to
> get "47".

That is amazing - just about everything I need and with less effort than
I imagined.  Thank you so much for the explanation.

Jonathan

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Internal Bookmarks

[Jonathan Allen]

Brian,

> If you prefer not to use Heading paragraph styles or you need to
> refer to some other sort of object, you can simply place a bookmark
> (Insert | Bookmark...) at the target item. Then "Bookmarks" is
> another option under Type in the Fields dialogue.

This will be very useful too, as some of the text is some way (and pages)
from the latest section heading and there may well be tables as well.

Jonathan

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Internal Bookmarks

[Brian Barker]

At 09:29 08/09/2016 +0100, Jonathan Allen wrote:
A document I am writing needs to have internal references in its 
footnotes and I really need to be able to keep these automatically 
up-to-date with the page numbers. They would look this (here ascii-fied):


[176] 6.4.2 Session Highlights, 47

I expect to provide the section number and title, but the page 
number '47' in the example above ought to track from the text 
itself. How can I plant the marker in the original text and then 
reference it in the footnote?


I'm no expert, but I think this is how to do this:

If the reference is to a "section number and title", the title will 
presumably have appeared where it does with one of the Heading 
paragraph styles. If so:

o In the footnote, go to Insert | Fields > | Other... | Cross-references.
o Under Type, select Headings.
o Under Selection, select the relevant heading.
o Under "Insert reference to", select Page.
o Insert.
o Close.

If you prefer not to use Heading paragraph styles or you need to 
refer to some other sort of object, you can simply place a bookmark 
(Insert | Bookmark...) at the target item. Then "Bookmarks" is 
another option under Type in the Fields dialogue.


You may need to use Tools | Update | Update All to see the result of 
changes in pagination immediately, but documents will always open refreshed.


I trust this helps.

Brian Barker


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Internal Bookmarks

[Regina Henschel]

Hi Jonathan,

Jonathan Allen schrieb:

Dear List,

A document I am writing needs to have internal references in its footnotes
and I really need to be able to keep these automatically up-to-date with
the page numbers.  They would look this (here ascii-fied):

[176] 6.4.2 Session Highlights, 47

I expect to provide the section number and title, but the page number '47'
in the example above ought to track from the text itself.


Do not write anything manually; use "Fields".



How can I plant the marker in the original text and then reference it
in the footnote?


There exists a lot of predefined markers, and therefore you seldom need 
to set bookmarks manually.


After you have used Insert -> Footnote/Endnote your Cursor is in the 
footnote area. Now use Insert -> Field -> More Fields... -> tab "Cross 
references". In your case you need the Type "Headings".


In the part "Selection" select the heading for which you will enter a 
reference. In the part "Insert reference to" you can select what 
information of the referenced heading will be shown. In your case you 
need to insert the reference three times, each with a different 
information. First use "Number" to get "6.4.2", second use "Reference" 
to get "Sessions Highlights", and third use "Page" to get "47".


All will update automatically, if you made changes in the text, for 
example change the wording of the heading or insert/delete text parts 
which will affect the number or page.


Kind regards
Regina


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[libreoffice-users] Internal Bookmarks

[Jonathan Allen]

Dear List,

A document I am writing needs to have internal references in its footnotes
and I really need to be able to keep these automatically up-to-date with
the page numbers.  They would look this (here ascii-fied):

   [176] 6.4.2 Session Highlights, 47

I expect to provide the section number and title, but the page number '47'
in the example above ought to track from the text itself.

How can I plant the marker in the original text and then reference it
in the footnote?

Jonathan

-- 
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