Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[Virgil Arrington]

On 12/24/2017 05:42 PM, Girvin Herr wrote:
> Virgil,
> Your posting brought back a faint memory of that sidebar. I squashed 
> it long ago when it was first introduced and haven't seen it since. I 
> had to bring up AOO and check for it. You can squash it with the 
> little icon on the left margin of the sidebar. There are < and > icons 
> that expand or squash the sidebar respectively. Yes, when squashed 
> there is still a bit of wasted main window on the right side for these 
> icons, but that is the sacrifice for options.
> HTH.
> Girvin Herr
>

Thanks for the tip, but unfortunately, I need the sidebar because that 
is where the styles list resides, which I use extensively. My problem is 
that it resides with several other things (Properties, Gallery, and 
Navigator, although Navigator can still be placed by itself as a 
separate sidebar). When I load a new document, or even an existing 
document, the sidebar defaults to Properties, which I don't want. I want 
Styles, so I have to click on the Styles icon to get the sidebar list I 
want. If I could set the Styles list as the default sidebar, or if the 
sidebar would remember my last list for new documents, I would be happy. 
As it is, I have to take extra steps to get what I want.

As I type this, I realize what a whiner I am. Geeze, I have to click on 
an icon to get what I want. One click. On one icon. It takes less than a 
second.

How spoiled I have become in my use of technology.

Merry Christmas y'all.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[Girvin Herr]

On 12/23/2017 05:54 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:


On 12/23/2017 01:25 AM, Dave Barton wrote:

Even better if the day ever comes when we can have styles list undocked
from the sidebar, in the same way as Navigator.

Dave


Sort of like the way it was *before* the UI was improved.

A suggestion to developers:

I would be very slow to change a program's user interface. End users
learn a given interface and, over time, become very proficient with it
(I think back to my DOS days when I could make PC-Write sing and dance
with those Wordstar Ctrl-Key combinations). Then, someone comes along
and decides to improve the UI by moving everything around (including
moving the "Ctrl" away from its original position next to the "A" key).
Several years ago, MS did this when it introduced its Ribbon, which
forced end users to relearn their UI, which also meant *unlearning* many
of the methods by which they had previously grown very productive. I
think this is one reason Emacs and Vim are so popular with their
respective users; the interface remains consistent over the years.

One reason I like LibreOffice is because its developers seem to have
been very slow to make unnecessary changes to the UI. For that, I offer
a hearty thank you.

That said, I think the sidebar was at least incomplete in its
implementation, with no ability for the user to select the particular
sidebar he wanted as default (i.e., styles vs. properties.) I will
welcome a fix when it comes.

I seem to remember seeing the sidebar first on Apache OpenOffice and
thinking, "This is one reason I prefer LO." Then, on my next LO upgrade,
I saw the sidebar and was bummed. Did LO copy the sidebar from AOO, or
was it the other way around.

Virgil


Virgil,
Your posting brought back a faint memory of that sidebar. I squashed it 
long ago when it was first introduced and haven't seen it since. I had 
to bring up AOO and check for it. You can squash it with the little icon 
on the left margin of the sidebar. There are < and > icons that expand 
or squash the sidebar respectively. Yes, when squashed there is still a 
bit of wasted main window on the right side for these icons, but that is 
the sacrifice for options.

HTH.
Girvin Herr

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[Virgil Arrington]

On 12/23/2017 01:25 AM, Dave Barton wrote:
>
> Even better if the day ever comes when we can have styles list undocked
> from the sidebar, in the same way as Navigator.
>
> Dave
>

Sort of like the way it was *before* the UI was improved.

A suggestion to developers:

I would be very slow to change a program's user interface. End users 
learn a given interface and, over time, become very proficient with it 
(I think back to my DOS days when I could make PC-Write sing and dance 
with those Wordstar Ctrl-Key combinations). Then, someone comes along 
and decides to improve the UI by moving everything around (including 
moving the "Ctrl" away from its original position next to the "A" key). 
Several years ago, MS did this when it introduced its Ribbon, which 
forced end users to relearn their UI, which also meant *unlearning* many 
of the methods by which they had previously grown very productive. I 
think this is one reason Emacs and Vim are so popular with their 
respective users; the interface remains consistent over the years.

One reason I like LibreOffice is because its developers seem to have 
been very slow to make unnecessary changes to the UI. For that, I offer 
a hearty thank you.

That said, I think the sidebar was at least incomplete in its 
implementation, with no ability for the user to select the particular 
sidebar he wanted as default (i.e., styles vs. properties.) I will 
welcome a fix when it comes.

I seem to remember seeing the sidebar first on Apache OpenOffice and 
thinking, "This is one reason I prefer LO." Then, on my next LO upgrade, 
I saw the sidebar and was bummed. Did LO copy the sidebar from AOO, or 
was it the other way around.

Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[Girvin Herr]

On 12/23/2017 10:26 AM, John Jason Jordan wrote:


At this point I should also add that there has long been a bug with
floating toolbars on all Linux installations that I know of - that is,
if you have a toolbar floating it defeats the normal focus actions of
the Linux X-windows GUI. An example would make this more clear. Let us
suppose that I have only one Writer document window open on the screen.
While working on it I discover that I need to use another program, e.g.,
Firefox, so I switch to a Firefox window, leaving the Writer document
on the screen. The Firefox window will come up on top of the Writer
document, as it should, but when I later minimize the Firefox window I
see the Writer document is now completely visible again, but focus has
not been restored to it. And that means that clicking on its icon in the
Xfce panel will not minimize it until I click on the window to restore
its focus. Also, when I later restore a Writer document window quite
often the floating formatting toolbar fails to appear. I can go into
View > Toolbars and I see that it is still checked, but to get it back I
have to un-check it, then re-check it. And when I restore a document to
the screen by clicking on it in the Xfce panel it comes up on the
screen, but again without focus. I wish there was a hotkey to open the
Formatting toolbar, like F11 for the Styles toolbar, but I can't find
one. I tried to create one, but I failed.

I have lived with this bug since forever, with all versions on OO and
now LO. I was hoping that this would have finally been fixed in the new
LO 5.4, but it remains unchanged. And a few years ago I asked on one of
these lists and after much discussion I tracked the problem down to my
floating toolbars, that is, if none of my floating toolbars are on the
screen the document window takes focus as it should, like all other
application windows. Also, the problem is specific to each individual
document window, e.g., as I write this I have three Writer documents
open, I closed the floating toolbars on one of them and that window then
took focus properly, but I left the toolbars on the other two
documents and they still did not take focus properly.



Greetings,
I, too, use xfce4 and this window focus problem might not be an LO 
issue. I use several other apps and have experienced this frustrating 
focus problem with them too. I usually don't notice it until after I 
type some text and discover the text is not showing up in the window I 
expected. It would be an interesting datapoint if someone in this forum 
who uses KDE or another Linux desktop would confirm or deny they 
experience it with those desktops.


Girvin Herr


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[John Jason Jordan]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 07:08:20 -0700 (MST)
V Stuart Foote  dijo:

>Dave Barton-3 wrote
>> On 22.12.2017 03:07, Virgil Arrington wrote:
>> ...
>> Even better if the day ever comes when we can have styles list
>> undocked from the sidebar, in the same way as Navigator.
>
>That is  tdf#85905
>   /Allow
>undocking of Sidebar decks/, which would allow each of type of Sidebar
>deck to be detached and handled in its own frame (docked or undocked).
>
>Meanwhile, check out the "new" View -> Toolbars -> Formatting (Styles)
>toolbar as a "styles" focused alternative to the default Formatting
>toolbar.

Thanks to all for the comments. 

This saga started for me because an Xubuntu update installed Firefox
57, which broke the Zotero add-ons. After several hours of struggling
I finally discovered that the only solution was to install the new
standalone Zotero; which works well except it is not as convenient as
having the Zotero add-on in Firefox. However, while the standalone
Zoter works for adding an entry in my database with Firefox, the Zotero
toolbar in Writer still did not work. More hours of struggling later I
discovered that I needed a new LO extension for Zotero. But the new
extension wouldn't install because it required LO 5.0 or later. After
even more struggling I decided that the only solution was to add a PPA
to my repository list in my Xubuntu 14.04, and then install LO 5.4. But
LO 5.4 severely messed up my user interface, and now I am trying to get
things back to the way I want them. I hope to high heaven that I am
close to the end of this trial.

I should add that I only use Writer and Impress, and I use Impress only
for opening .ppt files provided to me by others. My use of Calc, Base
and Draw is rare. I do use tables a lot in my writing, but I do so only
in Writer. Because my work in LO is writing text documents I want as
much vertical screen area as possible, so I want no toolbars at the top
of the document window. Instead, because the area to the left and right
of my widescreen monitor is unused, I like my toolbars floating out
there. And the toolbars that I need are just Formatting (which I have
heavily customized) and Styles; and Zotero only when the document will
need citations. I need other functions less frequently so the top menu
(File Edit View ...) is adequate for me.

At this point I should also add that there has long been a bug with
floating toolbars on all Linux installations that I know of - that is,
if you have a toolbar floating it defeats the normal focus actions of
the Linux X-windows GUI. An example would make this more clear. Let us
suppose that I have only one Writer document window open on the screen.
While working on it I discover that I need to use another program, e.g.,
Firefox, so I switch to a Firefox window, leaving the Writer document
on the screen. The Firefox window will come up on top of the Writer
document, as it should, but when I later minimize the Firefox window I
see the Writer document is now completely visible again, but focus has
not been restored to it. And that means that clicking on its icon in the
Xfce panel will not minimize it until I click on the window to restore
its focus. Also, when I later restore a Writer document window quite
often the floating formatting toolbar fails to appear. I can go into
View > Toolbars and I see that it is still checked, but to get it back I
have to un-check it, then re-check it. And when I restore a document to
the screen by clicking on it in the Xfce panel it comes up on the
screen, but again without focus. I wish there was a hotkey to open the
Formatting toolbar, like F11 for the Styles toolbar, but I can't find
one. I tried to create one, but I failed.

I have lived with this bug since forever, with all versions on OO and
now LO. I was hoping that this would have finally been fixed in the new
LO 5.4, but it remains unchanged. And a few years ago I asked on one of
these lists and after much discussion I tracked the problem down to my
floating toolbars, that is, if none of my floating toolbars are on the
screen the document window takes focus as it should, like all other
application windows. Also, the problem is specific to each individual
document window, e.g., as I write this I have three Writer documents
open, I closed the floating toolbars on one of them and that window then
took focus properly, but I left the toolbars on the other two
documents and they still did not take focus properly.

I read the bug report in the link provided by Dave Barton above. It was
interesting, but provided no solution. However, having read it I
concluded that perhaps future development will provide a fix so I can
get rid of the sidebar. For now I conclude that I am just stuck with it.

I also checked out the new Styles (Formatting) toolbar, but it does not
replace the real styles toolbar - no buttons to change from paragraph
styles to text styles, etc. I also 

[libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[V Stuart Foote]

Dave Barton-3 wrote
> On 22.12.2017 03:07, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> ...
> Even better if the day ever comes when we can have styles list undocked
> from the sidebar, in the same way as Navigator.

That is  tdf#85905
   /Allow
undocking of Sidebar decks/, which would allow each of type of Sidebar deck
to be detached and handled in its own frame (docked or undocked).

Meanwhile, check out the "new" View -> Toolbars -> Formatting (Styles)
toolbar as a "styles" focused alternative to the default Formatting toolbar.
   



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[Dave Barton]

On 22.12.2017 03:07, Virgil Arrington wrote:
> On 12/21/2017 04:00 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote:
>> Either case you can select the Styles and Formatting content panel--and
>> at the 6.0.0 beta2 build the selected Sidebar deck will reopen when the
>> module opens.
>>
>>
> Yay!
>
> I've hated the Sidebar deck ever since it was introduced. I had 
> previously had my styles list docked to the side all by itself, but with 
> with Sidebar deck, I have had to navigate through other layers of stuff 
> I never use to get to my styles list.
>
> In fact, by defaulting to the Properties sidebar, the program encourages 
> direct formatting rather than styles-based formatting.
>
> I'll be thrilled when I can choose to have it default to the styles list.
>
> Virgil

+1000

Even better if the day ever comes when we can have styles list undocked
from the sidebar, in the same way as Navigator.

Dave



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[Virgil Arrington]

On 12/21/2017 04:00 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote:
> Either case you can select the Styles and Formatting content panel--and
> at the 6.0.0 beta2 build the selected Sidebar deck will reopen when the
> module opens.
>
>
Yay!

I've hated the Sidebar deck ever since it was introduced. I had 
previously had my styles list docked to the side all by itself, but with 
with Sidebar deck, I have had to navigate through other layers of stuff 
I never use to get to my styles list.

In fact, by defaulting to the Properties sidebar, the program encourages 
direct formatting rather than styles-based formatting.

I'll be thrilled when I can choose to have it default to the styles list.

Virgil

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Fixing 5.0 appearance

[V Stuart Foote]

There was never a "Styles" toolbar--just the "Formatting" toolbar which
remains and can be undocked and floating.

The "Styles and Formatting" dialog has been pinned into the Sidebar deck
where it is one of numerous content panels accessed via a Tab Bar.  The
Sidebar deck can be undocked and floating, or docked to either side of the
UI. Either case you can select the Styles and Formatting content panel--and
at the 6.0.0 beta2 build the selected Sidebar deck will reopen when the
module opens.

Unfortunately through 5.4.4 the Sidebar deck will open to the Properties
content panels, but toolbars and Sidebar deck will be as placed.




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