date:20111113

Thomas Cameron thomas.cameron at camerontech.com writes:

 
 
 On 11/13/2011 01:15 AM, JB wrote:
  Hi,
  
  every Fedora release is going downhill ...
 
 Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical
 improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and
 more features and performance per release.

Yes, but at what cost to Fedora and its community ?
Read on.
 
  Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on
  its own ?
 
 And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where
 do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off?

Some from an independent Fedora devs, others from other distros by adoption of
those that are useful and not conflicting with its goals.
Read on.
 
  Linux distros:
  http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y
 
 Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's
 meaningless.

We have to rely on them in formulating trends, which are approximations
anyway.
 
  Fedora, Red Hat:
  http://www.google.com/trends?q=fedora%2C+redhatctab=0geo=alldate=allsort=0
 
 These trends are pretty meaningless. Less searches on a technology don't
 necessarily mean the technology is on the wane. It could very well be
 that people are more comfortable so they're not Googling as much. Or
 that they know to go straight to the most popular Fedora sites or the
 Red Hat portal.

Be careful in your interpretations.
Search engines are gold mines of data for which many companies are willing to
pay lots of money.
It is one of Google's main businesses, that is collecting, tabulating, and
interpreting, and selling it.

 
 Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year
 (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X
 increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth.

Yes, it is. But it is also a reflection of economic decline, financial crash,
IT crash that make free software attractive, even necessary for survival.

 Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
 indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
 down.

That does not mean much - what sticks, counts.
I downloaded F16, it gave me a big kernel dump with other errors - it is good
for my dev machine as a reference of what is going on, but not good beyond
that.

 Statistics cobbled together from dubious sources don't really concern
 me. They probably shouldn't concern you, either. You can manipulate the
 same data to prove almost anything you want.
 
 Remember, there are three kinds of lies - likes, damned lies, and
 statistics.
 
 [1] http://investors.redhat.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=355567

Well, one has to be somewhat sceptical, indeed.
Read on.

The ladies protest too much :-)

You can follow the users' frustrations with the state of recent Fedora
releases here on this and other lists.
 
Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse.
It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and
automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them
admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for
their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability,
adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too
disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community.

There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's
governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop
some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to
mention implementation stages.

SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly
designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and
inflexible for ad-hoc installed packages, with incomprehensible/non-intuitive
psedo-scientific naming convention for control labels, difficult to use and
judge by an average sysadmin and user (which mostly results in accepting
problem cases as valid exceptions, or filing Bugzilla reports which makes
the maintainer and RH services unavoidable).
Yes, the maintainers are doing good job, but within those faulty perimeters.

GNOME 3 is an example of how not to do it, also influenced by RH devs.
If you think that this is an example of how to influence the state of Linux
desktop, then you live in a strange world.
People (many volunteers) have worked on it for more than 10 years to convince
users (inclusive the critical business community) to give them a chance.
The good results achieved even caused M$ to list Linux desktop as a danger to
their desktop business in its SEC documents.
Guess what ? They removed it recently.
All they had to do is just wait for the enemy within ...

With regard to Systemd, it is the most recent example of non-UNIX-like (or
more like old M$-like) approach to software develoment. It is obvious by its
goals, design, and reaction to criticism - they are not

Re: chksystemd Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread suvayu ali

Hi,

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:34, T.C. Hollingsworth
tchollingswo...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 4:22 AM, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com wrote:
 404 on the rpm

 Fixed.  Sorry about that!


I can't seem to pipe the output or redirect it to a file. Try either
of those gives me this backtrace:

graphical.target
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 241, in module
main()
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 92, in main
list_deps(args.unit, targets)
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 180, in list_deps
print_deps(target, False)
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 203, in print_deps
print_dep(prefix, unit, True, by)
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 210, in print_dep
print_deps(unit, by, prefix=''.join(['│ ', prefix]), required=required)
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 195, in print_deps
print prefix,
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2502' in
position 0: ordinal not in range(128)


 -T.C.

Hope this helps.

PS: I think this is a very useful utility, maybe its worthwhile
submitting this for inclusion?

-- 
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Open source is the future. It sets us free.
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Re: Preugrade Stalled?

2011-11-13 Thread Dave Cross

On 13 November 2011 10:50, Dave Cross dav...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm trying to upgrade my Dell desktop to F16 using preupgrade. I ran
 the download overnight and started the actual upgrade this morning. I
 started it running and wandered off for an hour and a half.

 When I came back it was at the examining storage devices stage. But
 the progress bar isn't moving. I've now watched it for an hour and it
 hasn't changed at all.

It seems I spoke too soon. When I returned to the system a couple of
hours later, it had moved on and was installing the packages.

Sorry for bothering you.

Dave...
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dconf-editor icon-manager

2011-11-13 Thread Alexander Volovics

If I understand it correctly after installing 
'gnome-shell-extension-icon-manager' and 'dconf-editor' it is possible 
to add/remove icons from the top-bar (Fed 16 + Gnome 3.2).

However I can find no documentation to explain how to do this except
/usr/share/doc/gnome-shell-extension-icon-manager-0/README which says:

. Edit key
  * top-bar: put icons that you want to remove from top-bar or move from
tray bar

But if I enter 'volume' for example it is not accepted with remark:
Error setting value: 0-6 unknown keyword.

At the bottom of the window I see Type:  as.
What is this type as and how do i enter it.

Alexander


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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread 夜神　岩男


 Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year
 (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X
 increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth.

 Yes, it is. But it is also a reflection of economic decline, financial crash,
 IT crash that make free software attractive, even necessary for survival.

Capitalism mimics nature: chaotic, violent, cannibalistic, and promotes 
progressive adaptation above all other things. This is not a sign of 
economic decline, but a shift to a better mode of operation. When the 
web is recognized to be something other than the OS/development platform 
it has been mistaken for of late it will not longer be a fad absorbing 
gobs of trash funding -- and that will not represent economic decline, 
but rather a structural correction within the market.

You won't be lamenting the decline of internal combustion engine makers 
when a new cleaner method of energy conversion is developed to replace 
current automobile engine -- because it is politically and socially 
unacceptable to lament such dirty things. IT is no different, just 
less politically charged in the eyes of the general population because 
they understand that they don't understand it well enough to have strong 
opinions on most points (whereas everyone is an expert in climatology 
and planetary cosmology). The IT market is massively overweight, 
overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices 
right now. Open source development for the most common of software 
system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing 
services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) = 
a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy 
about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the 
process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is 
scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating 
mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good 
business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on 
the part of IBM.

 Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
 indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
 down.

 That does not mean much - what sticks, counts.
 I downloaded F16, it gave me a big kernel dump with other errors - it is good
 for my dev machine as a reference of what is going on, but not good beyond
 that.

Fedora was never intended to be useful in any other way to you. That it 
in fact is far more useful than that in most use cases is a testament to 
how coherent the Fedora project really is, despite its pace of 
development. And that is pretty amazing considering we lack a common 
architectural goal or vision.

 Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse.
 It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and
 automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them
 admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for
 their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability,
 adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too
 disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community.

 There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's
 governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop
 some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to
 mention implementation stages.

I'm not on the board, but I'm an independent outsider. I don't like the 
state of systemd. I liked SysV because I know it well. Spending time 
reading the systemd-dev list has convinced me that systemd is actually a 
good idea, just not one that is fully implemented yet. Very importantly, 
it is also not suffering from the problems that Hurd only recently 
overcame on the project level. I expect great things from systemd -- 
within a year or so. Until then, RHEL or SL are fantastic stability 
options -- and Vine fits my wife's needs perfectly without being too 
different for me to manage for her.

 SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly
 designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and
 inflexible for ad-hoc installed packages, with incomprehensible/non-intuitive
 psedo-scientific naming convention for control labels, difficult to use and
 judge by an average sysadmin and user (which mostly results in accepting
 problem cases as valid exceptions, or filing Bugzilla reports which makes
 the maintainer and RH services unavoidable).

Have you ever configured Sendmail or tried to write a common coding 
specification for a web application which is supposed to run in Chrome, 
Firefox, Safari and IE? (Or just for starters tried to make sense of the 
new Firefox cycle or figure out what is going on in Chrome's hacked-up 
bundled libraries before the next version is already

Re: SystemD - F-16

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:15:00 -0700
Kevin Fenzi wrote:

 systemctl list-unit-files
 
 give you any of what you are looking for?

That tells me what units are available, not
what units are enabled to be started at boot.
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Re: dconf-editor icon-manager [solved]

2011-11-13 Thread Alexander Volovics

On 11/13/2011 02:53 PM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
 If I understand it correctly after installing
 'gnome-shell-extension-icon-manager' and 'dconf-editor' it is possible
 to add/remove icons from the top-bar (Fed 16 + Gnome 3.2).

 However I can find no documentation to explain how to do this except
 /usr/share/doc/gnome-shell-extension-icon-manager-0/README which says:

 . Edit key
* top-bar: put icons that you want to remove from top-bar or move from
  tray bar

 But if I enter 'volume' for example it is not accepted with remark:
 Error setting value: 0-6 unknown keyword.

 At the bottom of the window I see Type:  as.
 What is this type as and how do i enter it.

Sorry for the noise
Typing 'volume' instead of volume works.

Alexander
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Re: SystemD - F-16

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:41:14 +
mike cloaked wrote:

 Whilst we are on the subject can someone tell me what the systemd
 equivalent is for the command service iptables save ?

I always just run the iptables-save program directly and
redirect output to /etc/sysconfig/iptables if you really
want to save the state permanently and not just look at
it (I'm pretty sure that is all the rc script did with
the save command).
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Re: chksystemd Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread T.C. Hollingsworth

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 6:46 AM, suvayu ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote:
 I can't seem to pipe the output or redirect it to a file. Try either
 of those gives me this backtrace:

 graphical.target
 Traceback (most recent call last):
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 241, in module
    main()
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 92, in main
    list_deps(args.unit, targets)
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 180, in list_deps
    print_deps(target, False)
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 203, in print_deps
    print_dep(prefix, unit, True, by)
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 210, in print_dep
    print_deps(unit, by, prefix=''.join(['│ ', prefix]), required=required)
  File /usr/bin/chksystemd, line 195, in print_deps
    print prefix,
 UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2502' in
 position 0: ordinal not in range(128)

Yay for unicode bugs!  Fixed in chksystemd-2 (along with a brown paper
bag bug that made the reset action not work), which is now available
at http://tchol.org/chksystemd/


 Hope this helps.

 PS: I think this is a very useful utility, maybe its worthwhile
 submitting this for inclusion?

I definitely will once it's got some more testing.

-T.C.
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Re: Problems with DNS name server in Fedora 16

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:26:12 -0800 (PST)
Michael Hannon wrote:

 I don't understand why the resolver didn't fall through to the second
 nameserver, but it evidently did not.  After I put the nameservers in the
 order you suggest, everything seems to be working fine!

Because the multiple servers are only good for
the first server failing. Once the first server
says I know there isn't any such name defined,
it doesn't ask the 2nd server.
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Alan Cox

 Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical
 improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and
 more features and performance per release.

That's a politicians answer. It's completely ignoring the point raised.

It doesn't matter how many features a new release has if it doesn't even
run properly on lots of systems. Most of the features are also
irrelevant to most of the users. In F15 you could at least make the case
that Gnome3 was relevant to users even if some hated it and chunks of the
code were at best prototype state. (and I'd note the Phoronix survey data
suggests that Gnome 3 is rather more liked than some might think from
list traffic)

But clustering and directory services, like forcing LVM on hapless end
users are really irrelevant to most. LVM wasn't a big deal for those who
knew better - disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, and
its become vaguely relevant with crypto. All of this is painting the
fences and hanging bling on a core product which is getting a bit
wobblier every release

It's bloated
It picks bad user defaults
It ships a default desktop which burns CPU horribly

 And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where
 do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off?

Perhaps the Red Hat engineers could QA their new technologies a bit
more before including them ?

I don't buy the big problem claim here. Several other releases have
been a bit wobbly especially out of the box first release. Nor do a few
crash reports in themselves form a statistically valid sample.

I do think that as has happened a couple of times before now it's time
Fedora spent a release or two being more conservative on new toys and
fixing the ones it already has.

  Linux distros:
  http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y
 
 Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's
 meaningless.

Ah the cult of Gnome defence - insert fingers in ears and keep shouting
loudly We can't hear you, we can't hear you, anything we don't agree
with is biased

(to be fair I note you point to some sensible stats further down)

 Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year
 (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X
 increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth.

RHEL is IMHO a good product, with well thought out services around it,
but it's not Fedora, and I really don't want to think how 'we've
redesigned all your init scripts and broken compatibility' would go down
in a meeting with a major banking client. I suspect 'The door is that
way, Sir, goodbye and tell the Oracle salesman to come in as you leave'

 Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
 indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
 down.

Be careful that downloads are a lagging indicator of success. They go up
after you get it right not as, and they go down after you get it wrong,
not as...

Alan
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/13/2011 08:00 PM, Alan Cox wrote:

 Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
 indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
 down.
 
 Be careful that downloads are a lagging indicator of success. They go up
 after you get it right not as, and they go down after you get it wrong,
 not as...

Those are *not* just statistics on downloads.

Rahul
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Bruno Wolff III

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +,
  JB jb.1234a...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 every Fedora release is going downhill ...

If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going downhill.

If you are referring to mindshare amoung people that use linux, that
seems likely to be true. Ubuntu and Mint seem to be pretty popular now.

 Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on
 its own ?

I don't see how that could help. Fedora needs more contributors, not less.
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Re: SystemD - F-16

On 11/13/2011 04:42 PM, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:

 
 Unfortunately, chkconfig itself doesn't translate to systemd well.
 However, this thread got me thinking that there is a need for a
 chkconfig-like tool for systemd.  So, I wrote one:
 
 http://tchol.org/chksystemd/

Perhaps patches to systemctl to implement additional command line
arguments would be more useful than teaching everyone to use two
different tools.

Rahul
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Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread mike cloaked

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 04:42 PM, T.C. Hollingsworth wrote:


 Unfortunately, chkconfig itself doesn't translate to systemd well.
 However, this thread got me thinking that there is a need for a
 chkconfig-like tool for systemd.  So, I wrote one:

 http://tchol.org/chksystemd/

 Perhaps patches to systemctl to implement additional command line
 arguments would be more useful than teaching everyone to use two
 different tools.

Yes - if systemctl is ultimately the only daemon control command then
everything that is needed should be included, once all sysV stuff has
gone from =f17?

I would like to see something in systemctl to achieve what used to be
done with service iptables save - as another poster already said one
can manually do:
iptables-save  /etc/sysconfig/iptables

Most daemon controls were done with either of service or chkconfig
- would be nice to have it all within systemctl.

So why not just have this from systemctl using something like
systemctl save iptables.service ?

-- 
mike c
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Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread Andre Costa

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:22, Tom Horsley horsley1...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:41:14 +
 mike cloaked wrote:

  Whilst we are on the subject can someone tell me what the systemd
  equivalent is for the command service iptables save ?

 I always just run the iptables-save program directly and
 redirect output to /etc/sysconfig/iptables if you really
 want to save the state permanently and not just look at
 it (I'm pretty sure that is all the rc script did with
 the save command).
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I've always been a RedHat/Fedora user, but I have to use Ubuntu at work. At
first I was completely lost with apt-get, but then someone pointed me to
this page [
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromLinux/RedHatEnterpriseLinuxAndFedora]
and it made a whole lot of difference to me as a newcomer. Maybe if there
was a similar documentation explaining to old dogs (myself included) how
to do SysV tasks the systemd way, transition would be easier. I know the
information is probably already on all the manpages somehow, but I'm
talking explicitly about something along the if you wanna do this
sysv-cmd, use this systemd-cmd way.

Just my $0.02.

Regards,

Andre
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Bruno Wolff III

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:45:34 +,
  JB jb.1234a...@gmail.com wrote:
 Some from an independent Fedora devs, others from other distros by adoption of
 those that are useful and not conflicting with its goals.

That is unlikely to happen. More likely the fork would just die.
 
 Fedora is unstable, release by release, progressively worse.

I am not seeing this. I am seeing a lot of change between releases, but the
stability within releases hasn't changed much. Most of the instability I
have seen over the last few years (once a version is released, rawhide tends
to have other issues) has been due to regressions in the upstream kernel.

 It is becoming a dump place for projects that are pushed by RH and
 automatically sanctioned by its subordinates here at Fedora (some of them
 admit to be torn between job loyalty and doubts), without consideration for
 their sometimes questionable goals, quality, effects on system stability,
 adherence to UNIX principles, lacking adequate testing, in short too
 disruptive even to pre-conditioned Fedora community.

Fedora is supposed to be a place to test out new technologies. Prerelease
testing for Fedora has improved for recent releases. I will agree that
there has been a lot of user facing change in the last few releases.
(Things like gnome 3 and systemd.)

 There is a lack of independent users representation in Fedora project's
 governing bodies who should and would be able to be more critical and stop
 some of this damage even before it enters the actual development, not to
 mention implementation stages.

I disagree there. Independent users do get elected to the board and FESCO.
And even for the Redhat employees, many of those were independent
contributors to Fedora who were hired by Redhat so that they could put
more time into Fedora. While this also gives Redhat more influence over
them, as far as I can observe most are acting pretty much as they did
before getting hired.

 SELinux is a static, straightjacket-like security control system, badly
 designed with its requirement for off-line system re-labeling, ineffective and

You can normally relabel online. You can relabel files unless you are
running in a more strict mode than the default. There can be interactions
with running processes, but within a release this normally isn't a problem.

 GNOME 3 is an example of how not to do it, also influenced by RH devs.

Maybe. But given gnome 3. it made sense to replace Gnome 2 in Fedora with
Gnome 3 given the goals of the Fedora project. Whether or not it should
be the featured desktop or whether the various supported desktops
should be showcased on a more equal footing is an area where there should
be discussion from time to time.

 The good results achieved even caused M$ to list Linux desktop as a danger to
 their desktop business in its SEC documents.
 Guess what ? They removed it recently.

That probably had more to do with being convicted of abusing their monopoly
position and with the requirement for monitoring ending.

 With regard to Systemd, it is the most recent example of non-UNIX-like (or
 more like old M$-like) approach to software develoment. It is obvious by its
 goals, design, and reaction to criticism - they are not of UNIX mind ...
 Linux API to be a new standard, over POSIX. Screw up everybody else ...

People haven't liked the init system for ages. That's why systemd is only
the latest of several attempts to improve it.

 There are still ca. 300 packages that are not converted from SysV/LSB to it by
 their maintainers who resist or do not see a reason for the progress despite
 all threats.

This is more likely due to contributors being overstretched, than actual
opposition to systed in the mahority of these cases.
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Mike Wohlgemuth

On 11/13/2011 09:30 AM, Alan Cox wrote:
 That's a politicians answer. It's completely ignoring the point raised.



With all due respect, the original poster appeared not to have much of a 
point.  Statements like

every Fedora release is going downhill ... Time for Fedora to decouple 
from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on its own ?

are all but content free.  Other than the fact that the poster is 
dissatisfied, I have no other information with which to judge whether or 
not I have any common ground with them.  The poster proposes rather 
vague but drastic changes without any information about how those 
changes would help the situation in any way.  There are also better 
forums than the users list to propose changes to Fedora governance.  All 
in all, treating the post as a troll seems remarkably reasonable.

Thanks
Mike



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Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread stan

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:17:41 -0500
Tom Horsley horsley1...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:15:00 -0700
 Kevin Fenzi wrote:
 
  systemctl list-unit-files
  
  give you any of what you are looking for?
 
 That tells me what units are available, not
 what units are enabled to be started at boot.

How about 
systemctl -a -t service | less
and if you want only active services
systemctl -a -t service | grep -e  active  | less
or inactive similarly
systemctl -a -t service | grep -e  inactive  | less
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Thomas Cameron
thomas.came...@camerontech.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 01:15 AM, JB wrote:
 Hi,

 every Fedora release is going downhill ...

 Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical
 improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and
 more features and performance per release.

You are both correct but you are looking at the result from different
perspectives. Many technical improvements do happen and they are
admired by those who *later* use them in an enterprise distribution.
At the same time many of those same improvements are despised by
direct users of Fedora. Bringing value to the enterprise and bringing
value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things.

This disconnect I see almost every day within the Fedora community
which has large groups of people from both camps. I've said it before
and I am going to say it again now - any definition of the target
audience of Fedora that doesn't include enterprise users is wrong as
it is clear to everyone looking that enterprise users are certainly an
important part of the target audience. Enterprise users need to
understand Fedora isn't just for them and Fedora users need to
understand Fedora isn't just for them either. It is a
corporate/community project, both parts of that relationship have a
stake and both need to see benefits and progress that affect them in
positive ways for the relationship to be sustained.

 Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on
 its own ?

 And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where
 do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off?

While I am not agreeing with the suggested split, the Red Hat
developers won't stop working upstream as they do now if Fedora
doesn't exist as it does today. Red Hat's contributions of new
technologies really aren't Fedora specific. Those happen upstream and
are included in Fedora and other distributions as those distributions
choose. Trying to make them Fedora specific isn't a good way to make
contributions of new technologies.

 Linux distros:
 http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y

 Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's
 meaningless.

 Fedora, Red Hat:
 http://www.google.com/trends?q=fedora%2C+redhatctab=0geo=alldate=allsort=0

 These trends are pretty meaningless. Less searches on a technology don't
 necessarily mean the technology is on the wane. It could very well be
 that people are more comfortable so they're not Googling as much. Or
 that they know to go straight to the most popular Fedora sites or the
 Red Hat portal.

One thing that is meaningful is that the Fedora Project has many
people who believe Fedora is becoming less relevant to its defined
target audience. And those who believe this aren't just end users of
Fedora.

 Red Hat as a company is poised to be a billion dollar company this year
 (FY12). The FY 2006 earnings were $278.3 million.[1] That's a 4X
 increase in just 6 years. That's *amazing* growth.

What does this have to do with Fedora or the relationship between Red
Hat and Fedora?

 Look at things like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, which
 indicate that downloads and torrents are going up with each release, not
 down.

Maybe look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy_statistics to see
that downloads and torrents are not going up with each release. While
these statistics don't really concern me one way or the other, we do
have periods of growth and decline that is evident in the available
statistics.

John
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Re: Problems with DNS name server in Fedora 16

2011-11-13 Thread Joe Zeff

On 11/13/2011 12:26 AM, Michael Hannon wrote:
 Another good suggestion.  I had forgotten about the immutable
 attribute.  I've
 set it now.  (It's a safe bet that in six months or so I'll be sending a
 note
 to the list, whining about how I can't edit resolv.conf ;-)

Suggestion: take off the immutable bit, now, add a comment saying that 
it's immutable (and why) then re-run chatter +i so that next time you 
need to edit it, you'll have a reminder inside the file.
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Re: chksystemd Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread suvayu ali

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 15:22, T.C. Hollingsworth
tchollingswo...@gmail.com wrote:
 UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2502' in
 position 0: ordinal not in range(128)

 Yay for unicode bugs!  Fixed in chksystemd-2 (along with a brown paper
 bag bug that made the reset action not work), which is now available
 at http://tchol.org/chksystemd/


Great, works nicely now.


 Hope this helps.

 PS: I think this is a very useful utility, maybe its worthwhile
 submitting this for inclusion?

 I definitely will once it's got some more testing.

Looking forward to it. Thanks a lot for this nice contribution. :)

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Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Ralf Corsepius

On 11/13/2011 03:45 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +,
JBjb.1234a...@gmail.com  wrote:

 every Fedora release is going downhill ...

 If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going downhill.

Well, having spent most of this weekend with installing F16, I don't 
sense any change in quality. Some issues have been resolved, others been 
ignored, new ones have been added. As with all previous releases, some 
of the novelties Fedora is infamous for are not working smoothly.

Finally, yes, I have to agree, in comparison to F15 (which I consider 
the worst Fedora ever) I sense some quality improvements.

 If you are referring to mindshare amoung people that use linux, that
 seems likely to be true. Ubuntu and Mint seem to be pretty popular now.

Right, to the public, Fedora has become a freak's niche.

 Time for Fedora to decouple from RH and become quality UNIX-like distro on
 its own ?

 I don't see how that could help. Fedora needs more contributors, not less.
That's one possible conclusion.

However, if you follow the OP's rationale, one logical conclusion would 
be Fedora needs less RH.

Another conclusion would be: Fedora should contain less experimental SW.

Ralf

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[F15] no windows borders in Xfce

2011-11-13 Thread mike lan

Hello  every one

in XFCe, I get no window borders , I have no way to minimize or maximize or
close  a window.


thanks .
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Re: SystemD - F-16

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:34:59 -0700
stan wrote:

 How about 
 systemctl -a -t service | less
 and if you want only active services
 systemctl -a -t service | grep -e  active  | less
 or inactive similarly
 systemctl -a -t service | grep -e  inactive  | less

Still not the same, a service might be set to start
at boot and fail for some reason and no longer be
active, but it is still configured to start at boot.

I suspect the new tool pointed at in another branch of
this thread is what I'll want to use, but I haven't
gotten a chance to try it yet.
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Re: [F15] no windows borders in Xfce

2011-11-13 Thread Leonardo Silveira

Look at this:
http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=5455

try to run on a console 

xfwm4 --replace

hope it helps

Em Dom, 2011-11-13 às 16:26 +, mike lan escreveu: 
 Hello  every one
 
 in XFCe, I get no window borders , I have no way to minimize or
 maximize or close  a window.
 
 
 thanks . 
 


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Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread Kevin Fenzi

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:17:41 -0500
Tom Horsley horsley1...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:15:00 -0700
 Kevin Fenzi wrote:
 
  systemctl list-unit-files
  
  give you any of what you are looking for?
 
 That tells me what units are available, not
 what units are enabled to be started at boot.

sorry, I meant: 

systemctl list-unit-files | grep enabled

kevin


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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Sam Varshavchik


Ralf Corsepius writes:


On 11/13/2011 03:45 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +,
JBjb.1234a...@gmail.com  wrote:

 every Fedora release is going downhill ...

 If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going downhill.

Well, having spent most of this weekend with installing F16, I don't
sense any change in quality.


It depends on where you're standing. If you follow the well-trodden path, of  
always doing a fresh install, not upgrading, and always taking the default  
filesystem layout, and only importing /home from the previous version,  
you'll be fine.


But dare to venture off the beaten path, and, it's getting ugly. And I'm not  
talking about anything weird. Even something as innocent as having  
everything on raid1, will result in an upgrade to F16 (or even installing it  
fresh, btw) ending up as an unbootable brick. Having listed that as a known  
issue, is not an answer. Anaconda, in recent releases, have become advanced  
enough so even generally non-sophisticated users, with only a minimum of  
technical know-how, can build mdraid arrays. But those users are going to be  
screwed if they dare to go with F16, and the steps for remediation are well  
beyond what I'd expect them to have.


It can be argued whether or not Fedora is losing mindshare, or not, but  
stuff like that is not helpful.


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Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread Fedora User

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:34:59 -0700
stan gr...@q.com wrote:

 On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:17:41 -0500
 Tom Horsley horsley1...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:15:00 -0700
  Kevin Fenzi wrote:
  
   systemctl list-unit-files
   
   give you any of what you are looking for?
  
  That tells me what units are available, not
  what units are enabled to be started at boot.
 
 How about 
 systemctl -a -t service | less
 and if you want only active services
 systemctl -a -t service | grep -e  active  | less
 or inactive similarly
 systemctl -a -t service | grep -e  inactive  | less

SystemD fixes what weren't broke ;-) Seriously. It's easier to
eliminate it all and just script everything in rc.local. The increasing
and pointless esoterica is making it impossible for people to migrate
to Fedora and that is very unfortunate. Presumably, a new install still
runs setup which includes services -- but only SysV?
system-config-services no longer does anything. 

An old Linux value used to be that simple and straightforward is
elegant. This is inelegant.
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Re: [F15] no windows borders in Xfce

2011-11-13 Thread Carroll Grigsby

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:26:13 +
mike lan lan.mik...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello  every one
 
 in XFCe, I get no window borders , I have no way to minimize or
 maximize or close  a window.
 
 
 thanks .

Mike:
Give this a try:
1. Open up a terminal with ALT Fn2. (or Fn3 or Fn4 ...)
2. Enter xfwm4 . Note that there is a space between the 4 and the
ampersand.

If that works, add xfwm4 to the Application Autostart list under
Session and Startup.

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Re: [F15] no windows borders in Xfce

2011-11-13 Thread mike lan

Thanks :)

it works

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Carroll Grigsby cgrigs...@att.net wrote:

 On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:26:13 +
 mike lan lan.mik...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hello  every one
 
  in XFCe, I get no window borders , I have no way to minimize or
  maximize or close  a window.
 
 
  thanks .

 Mike:
 Give this a try:
 1. Open up a terminal with ALT Fn2. (or Fn3 or Fn4 ...)
 2. Enter xfwm4 . Note that there is a space between the 4 and the
 ampersand.

 If that works, add xfwm4 to the Application Autostart list under
 Session and Startup.

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Re: SystemD - F-16

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:35:01 -0700
Kevin Fenzi wrote:

 sorry, I meant: 
 
 systemctl list-unit-files | grep enabled
 
 kevin

That almost does it, but there is still something
slightly different:

[root@zooty ~]# ls /etc/systemd/system/*.wants/*.service | wc -l
31
[root@zooty ~]# systemctl list-unit-files | grep enabled | wc -l
38

Looks like the extra 7 are things that aren't named .service.

So I think this does what I want:

systemctl list-unit-files | grep enabled | fgrep .service

Now I just need to find the option that makes it not truncate
long service names with ... and I'll be all set :-).
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Feroda for server

2011-11-13 Thread Benjamin

  Hi,

I want to deploy high squid proxy in our production environment in which 
we have online 12000 users and 800 mbps bandwith.

So for that we planning for high end h/w with linux os.

Does fedora is good for our requirement or do we need to go for centos / 
rhel ?

Please guide me resolve my query.

THanks,
Benijamin
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Joe Zeff

On 11/13/2011 08:21 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
 Finally, yes, I have to agree, in comparison to F15 (which I consider
 the worst Fedora ever) I sense some quality improvements.

Which is why I skipped it.  My impression is that the teething troubles 
with Gnome 3/Gnome Shell and the new systemd combined to make F15 
considerably more problematic than it should have been.  Letting one or 
the other of them wait until F16 might have been a better idea.
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Re: Little Yellow Boxes

On Saturday 12 Nov 2011 18:40:20 Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
 Ever since my upgrade to Fedora-16, whenever I center click on the
 background of KDE running the activity Search and Launch I get a small
 yellow box at the bottom of the screen, just above the panel.  Does
 anyone know what these boxes are (i.e. what application they are
 associated with), or how to get rid of them.  They appear to be part of
 some kind of note system; right clicking them gives an editing menu; the
 color is the same as a box generated by knotes.  Because I have a slight
 tremor in my fingers, I have now accumulated 22 of these boxes and 2
 small small Konqueror icons (where these came from is a total mystery),
 all of which I would like to get rid of.  KDE version is 4.7.2.
 
 An image is attached.
 
 Thanks for your help - jon

They are little post it notes, in your desktop settings under mouse 
actions your middle mouse button is set to paste, so when you middle click 
on the desktop it pastes the current clip board contents into a post it note

depending on whats in your clip board at the time it should ask if you want to 
add a note or a webslice or an image.

anyway, just disable the paste option from your middle click button in desktop 
settings, then just delete the notes as any other plasmoid widget

Martin

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Joe Zeff

On 11/13/2011 08:35 AM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
 It depends on where you're standing. If you follow the well-trodden
 path, of always doing a fresh install, not upgrading, and always taking
 the default filesystem layout, and only importing /home from the
 previous version, you'll be fine.

I've used preupgrade on both my desktop and laptop for the last several 
upgrades and all has gone well.  Yes, I did have to expand /boot once 
and once I had to tell grub to start the upgrade at boot, but compared 
to the type of thing you're talking about, that's trivial.  And, I'd be 
willing to bet money (and give fairly good odds) that the vast majority 
of Fedora users who use preupgrade have the same experience.  Why? 
Because if it weren't true, preupgrade would only be available (if at 
all) from some third-party repository and not recommended for the faint 
of heart.
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Alan Cox


 Those are *not* just statistics on downloads.

I appreciate that - but popularity is a lagging indicator in general.
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

夜神　岩男 supergiantpotato at yahoo.co.jp writes:

 ... 
 The IT market is massively overweight, 
 overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices 
 right now. Open source development for the most common of software 
 system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing 
 services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) = 
 a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy 
 about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the 
 process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is 
 scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating 
 mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good 
 business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on 
 the part of IBM.

IBM created RH to cover low-end market (RH providing services), eliminating
pressures from that side by making life miserable for more formidable than RH
companies and IBM competitors, itself concentrating on lucrative
mid-to-high-end (mostly mainframe once again, please) side.
So, back to the future for IBM ... :-)

 ...

JB
 





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Re: Feroda for server

2011-11-13 Thread Marvin Kosmal


 On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Benjamin benjo11...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hi,

 I want to deploy high squid proxy in our production environment in which
 we have online 12000 users and 800 mbps bandwith.

 So for that we planning for high end h/w with linux os.

 Does fedora is good for our requirement or do we need to go for centos /
 rhel ?

 Please guide me resolve my query.

 THanks,
 Benijamin





Hi

I would suggest something with a longer release cycle.Maybe Red Hat..

Marvin


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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Ralf Corsepius

On 11/13/2011 05:35 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
 Ralf Corsepius writes:

 On 11/13/2011 03:45 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
  On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:15:20 +,
  JBjb.1234a...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  every Fedora release is going downhill ...

  If you are referring to quality, I disagree that they are going
 downhill.

 Well, having spent most of this weekend with installing F16, I don't
 sense any change in quality.

 It depends on where you're standing. If you follow the well-trodden
 path, of always doing a fresh install, not upgrading, and always taking
 the default filesystem layout, and only importing /home from the
 previous version, you'll be fine.
That's what I did (BTW: Older openSUSE and Ubuntu installation meanwhile 
openly ask their users to upgrade on-the-fly).


The first issue was anaconda lumping together the swap partitions of the 
other linux installations, I have installed in parallel and anacondas's 
custom disk layout utility and it's custom partitioning GUI me not 
allowing the disk-layout I had wanted.
Afterwards, during installation, NetworkManager failed to bring the NIC up.

Later, I more or less was caught by issue others already discussed, 
earlier last week: T
* The broken autofs startup script issue,
* many issues with named (Meanwhile mostly working for me, but still 
having issues related to dnssec and IPv4)
* broken package deps in some packages (e.g. system-config-bind)
* finally many problems related to systemd ...

Currently bugging me:
... me not being able to get my parallel printer up,
... not being able to launch vsftpd through systemd,
... and some unfixed kernel bugs, which have been haunting me for 
several fedora releases.
...

On the positive side: One very nagging bug, I had reported years ago, 
finally seems fixed in F16's thunderbird. SELinux is not a bad as it 
used to be.

 But dare to venture off the beaten path, and, it's getting ugly. And I'm
 not talking about anything weird. Even something as innocent as having
 everything on raid1, will result in an upgrade to F16 (or even
 installing it fresh, btw) ending up as an unbootable brick.
... some time during manual post-installation cleanup, I was facing a 
failing X server. With F16, I ended up with a bricked system instead on 
a console (AFAICT, the culprit is systemd) - Great progress! The first 
bootup brick with Linux, I have experienced in for ca. 10 years ;)

 Having
 listed that as a known issue, is not an answer. Anaconda, in recent
 releases, have become advanced enough so even generally
 non-sophisticated users, with only a minimum of technical know-how, can
 build mdraid arrays.
... well, try opensuse's install for comparison, unlike Fedora's 
installer, it allows many ways of fancy partitioning.

 It can be argued whether or not Fedora is losing mindshare, or not, but
 stuff like that is not helpful.
Well, my view: Fedora 15 and 16 are infected with an amount of poor 
and/or immature pieces of SW which are rending Fedora a bad choice for 
ordinary endusers and too be very demanding to advanced users.

That said, I can relate to everybody who doesn't choose Fedora.

Ralf



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Re: Feroda for server

2011-11-13 Thread Benjamin


 On 11/13/2011 10:49 PM, Marvin Kosmal wrote:
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Benjamin benjo11...@gmail.com 
mailto:benjo11...@gmail.com wrote:


 Hi,

I want to deploy high squid proxy in our production environment in
which
we have online 12000 users and 800 mbps bandwith.

So for that we planning for high end h/w with linux os.

Does fedora is good for our requirement or do we need to go for
centos /
rhel ?

Please guide me resolve my query.

THanks,
Benijamin





Hi

I would suggest something with a longer release cycle.Maybe Red Hat..

Marvin

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Hi,

do i go with RHEL 6 64 bit ?

Regards,
Benjo
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Re: Disabling touchpad on Dell Latitude with XFCE

2011-11-13 Thread Oliver Ruebenacker

Hello Rick,

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Rick Stevens ri...@nerd.com wrote:
On 11/11/2011 10:27 AM, Oliver Ruebenacker wrote:
Hello,

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Oliver Ruebenacker cur...@gmail.com wrote:
Â I now found that apparently, I have a MultiTouch touchpad. Dell even
offers a driver for that for Ubuntu, as a gzipped tarball. I suppose
all I need is a MutliTouch driver for F15. I already found one for
F13, but it conflicts with my system.

While the specs on the Dell website called it MultiTouch, when I
installed all the drivers on Windows, it says there the manufacturer
is Alps Electric. Where can I get a functioning driver for that one?
Thanks!

The ALPS touchpad works with the Synaptics driver. You can edit your
xorg.conf file and enable the SHMConfig option

Option SHMConfig true

I added that line in my xorg.conf (attached) under the section that
said mouse

and use the synclient program to poke it. Or use the stuff I told you
about earlier in this thread.

synclient still says:

Couldn't find synaptics properties. No synaptics driver loaded?

yum says I have this package installed:

xorg-x11-drv-synaptics.x86_64
1.4.0.901-1.fc15 @fedora

The only packages yum finds that match *synapt* are the above and
the related *-devel package.

What next? Thanks!

Take care
Oliver

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Virtual Cell (http://vcell.org)
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http://www.oliver.curiousworld.org

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/13/2011 09:14 PM, inode0 wrote:

 You are both correct but you are looking at the result from different
 perspectives. Many technical improvements do happen and they are
 admired by those who *later* use them in an enterprise distribution.
 At the same time many of those same improvements are despised by
 direct users of Fedora. Bringing value to the enterprise and bringing
 value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things.

False dichotomy.

As a full time user of Fedora for several years, I value new
technologies directly in Fedora and I am proud these same technologies
have a wide impact in other distributions and in the enterprise in
future releases.  I see it as a important part of Fedora's culture.

 One thing that is meaningful is that the Fedora Project has many
 people who believe Fedora is becoming less relevant to its defined
 target audience. And those who believe this aren't just end users of
 Fedora.

Sure.  Point me to any large distribution who doesn't have such users or
contributors.

Rahul
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Re: Feroda for server

On 11/13/2011 11:09 PM, Benjamin wrote:

 Hi,
 
 do i go with RHEL 6 64 bit ?

Hard to give blanket answers without knowing more about the
considerations for your deployment but yes, 64-bit would generally be
preferable.

Rahul
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Re: SystemD - F-16

On 11/13/2011 10:07 PM, Fedora User wrote:

 SystemD fixes what weren't broke ;-) Seriously. It's easier to
 eliminate it all and just script everything in rc.local.

Not for any serious distribution developer or system administrator and
btw, it is spelled systemd

Rahul
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Re: Little Yellow Boxes

2011-11-13 Thread Jonathan Ryshpan

On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 17:05 +, Martin Airs wrote:
 On Saturday 12 Nov 2011 18:40:20 Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
  Ever since my upgrade to Fedora-16, whenever I center click on the
  background of KDE running the activity Search and Launch I get a small
  yellow box at the bottom of the screen, just above the panel.  Does
  anyone know what these boxes are (i.e. what application they are
  associated with), or how to get rid of them.  They appear to be part of
  some kind of note system; right clicking them gives an editing menu; the
  color is the same as a box generated by knotes.  Because I have a slight
  tremor in my fingers, I have now accumulated 22 of these boxes and 2
  small small Konqueror icons (where these came from is a total mystery),
  all of which I would like to get rid of.  KDE version is 4.7.2.
  
  An image is attached.
  
  Thanks for your help - jon
 
 They are little post it notes, in your desktop settings under mouse 
 actions your middle mouse button is set to paste, so when you middle click 
 on the desktop it pastes the current clip board contents into a post it note

I thought as much.

 depending on whats in your clip board at the time it should ask if you want 
 to 
 add a note or a webslice or an image.

That too.

 anyway, just disable the paste option from your middle click button in 
 desktop 
 settings, then just delete the notes as any other plasmoid widget

Center click is one of my favorite tools, so I don't want to disable it
right now.  

Deleting a note isn't so easy; there's been a fair amount of discussion
on the web about how to remove widgets, none of it informative.  I would
have thought that if a note is right clicked, a menu would appear with
an option to delete the note.  When I right click one of these notes a
menu does appear with many options for editing the note, but no option
to delete it.  An ordinary note is larger and has a border at the
bottom, which when right clicked produces a option to delete it.

Further advice is solicited.

Thanks very much - jon



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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/13/2011 10:41 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
 
 Those are *not* just statistics on downloads.
 
 I appreciate that - but popularity is a lagging indicator in general.

Whether popularity should even be a consideration depends on the goals
of the project however I should also note the statistics page wasn't
created to gauge popularity either.

Rahul

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Colin Paul Adams

 Joe == Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us writes:

Joe I've used preupgrade on both my desktop and laptop for the last
Joe several upgrades and all has gone well.  Yes, I did have to
Joe expand /boot once and once I had to tell grub to start the
Joe upgrade at boot, but compared to the type of thing you're
Joe talking about, that's trivial.  And, I'd be willing to bet
Joe money (and give fairly good odds) that the vast majority of
Joe Fedora users who use preupgrade have the same experience. 

Not for me.
Indeed, F14-F16 is documented as not working yet on the F16 problems page.
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 09:14 PM, inode0 wrote:

 You are both correct but you are looking at the result from different
 perspectives. Many technical improvements do happen and they are
 admired by those who *later* use them in an enterprise distribution.
 At the same time many of those same improvements are despised by
 direct users of Fedora. Bringing value to the enterprise and bringing
 value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things.

 False dichotomy.

It is only false if you assume I meant the groups to be mutually
exclusive, which I did not mean since I am an example of a user in
both groups. We do however have a lot of users that do fall primarily
into one group or the other. How many fedora desktop end users do
backflips about new clustering technology in Fedora?

We need to appreciate that some of what Fedora provides is meant for
me and some isn't, whoever me is and get along.

 As a full time user of Fedora for several years, I value new
 technologies directly in Fedora and I am proud these same technologies
 have a wide impact in other distributions and in the enterprise in
 future releases.  I see it as a important part of Fedora's culture.

 One thing that is meaningful is that the Fedora Project has many
 people who believe Fedora is becoming less relevant to its defined
 target audience. And those who believe this aren't just end users of
 Fedora.

 Sure.  Point me to any large distribution who doesn't have such users or
 contributors.

I'm not interested in other large distributions and their problems.
Fedora recently had a public identity crisis which seemed to largely
be caused by this, and for a previous poster to suggest it just isn't
true or doesn't exist seems to completely ignore our very recent
history.

John
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

Alan Cox alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk writes:

 ...
 But clustering and directory services, like forcing LVM on hapless end
 users are really irrelevant to most. LVM wasn't a big deal for those who
 knew better - disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, ...

Be blessed :-)
You reminded me of a very important post-installation step.
Quite few services that qualified.

 ...

Btw, I thought that you would be more articulate about the new Fedora:
- preferably with a rolling release feature (more natural by avoiding those
  adrenaline ups and downs in distro activities)
- forward-looking - yes, but more reasonable in its choice of projects and
  features
- more stable due to above and by delivering when ready
- attracting more devs, also converts from other distros who are often looking
  for home but are turned off by RH total control
- fill in your own

JB


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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/13/2011 11:34 PM, inode0 wrote:
 value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things.

 False dichotomy.
 
 It is only false if you assume I meant the groups to be mutually
 exclusive, which I did not mean since I am an example of a user in
 both groups. We do however have a lot of users that do fall primarily
 into one group or the other. How many fedora desktop end users do
 backflips about new clustering technology in Fedora?

Why the hell would any desktop user be bothered about things they don't
use?  I have no idea why this is a problem for anybody at all.  So yes,
I see a false dichotomy being preached.

 I'm not interested in other large distributions and their problems.

You should be.  It doesn't make sense to look at communities in
isolation when they are impacting and being impacted by a ecosystem.

Rahul
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 11:34 PM, inode0 wrote:
 value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things.

 False dichotomy.

 It is only false if you assume I meant the groups to be mutually
 exclusive, which I did not mean since I am an example of a user in
 both groups. We do however have a lot of users that do fall primarily
 into one group or the other. How many fedora desktop end users do
 backflips about new clustering technology in Fedora?

 Why the hell would any desktop user be bothered about things they don't
 use?  I have no idea why this is a problem for anybody at all.  So yes,
 I see a false dichotomy being preached.

They are affected by many of the changes. That is why.

 I'm not interested in other large distributions and their problems.

 You should be.  It doesn't make sense to look at communities in
 isolation when they are impacting and being impacted by a ecosystem.

I live in a larger ecosystem so of course I do care. But in this
context saying other communities share a problem we'd like to fix in
ours only gives us an excuse to ignore it because we are no different
from the others.

John
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Mark LaPierre

On 11/13/2011 01:17 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 11:34 PM, inode0 wrote:
 value to the Fedora desktop user are two very different things.

 False dichotomy.

 It is only false if you assume I meant the groups to be mutually
 exclusive, which I did not mean since I am an example of a user in
 both groups. We do however have a lot of users that do fall primarily
 into one group or the other. How many fedora desktop end users do
 backflips about new clustering technology in Fedora?

 Why the hell would any desktop user be bothered about things they don't
 use?  I have no idea why this is a problem for anybody at all.  So yes,
 I see a false dichotomy being preached.

 I'm not interested in other large distributions and their problems.

 You should be.  It doesn't make sense to look at communities in
 isolation when they are impacting and being impacted by a ecosystem.

 Rahul

Look at the case.  Fedora is a bleeding edge release where new stuff is 
published for testing and eventual incorporation into RHEL.  If you 
don't want to be a bleeding edge user/tester then stay away from current 
Fedora releases.

For example, I like to have the newest software, but I don't want to be 
the primary tester.  I prefer to hang back a release or two, where most 
or the bugs have been found and fixed, before I encounter them and loose 
data that I find important.

In the mean time you can research the newest releases to see if you want 
to go there.  I've don't like the looks of what I see in F15 or F16 at 
the moment so I'll probably skip those releases.

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote:

 
 They are affected by many of the changes. That is why.

How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology?  You aren't
making any sense to me now


 I live in a larger ecosystem so of course I do care. But in this
 context saying other communities share a problem we'd like to fix in
 ours only gives us an excuse to ignore it because we are no different
 from the others.

It isn't a excuse to ignore it but looking at it from the broader
perspective is important to even understand it fully.  If you say you
don't care, then you wouldn't know what other communities are doing
about it and whether Fedora can look at picking up the right solutions.

Rahul
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Re: Little Yellow Boxes

On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 09:56:32 Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
 Deleting a note isn't so easy; there's been a fair amount of discussion
 on the web about how to remove widgets, none of it informative.  I would
 have thought that if a note is right clicked, a menu would appear with
 an option to delete the note.  When I right click one of these notes a
 menu does appear with many options for editing the note, but no option
 to delete it.  An ordinary note is larger and has a border at the
 bottom, which when right clicked produces a option to delete it.
 
 Further advice is solicited.
 
 Thanks very much - jon

with widgets unlocked, these notes should have a semi transparent border 
appear around them when you hover your mouse over them, and should have the 
usual resize, rotate and delete icons in it.

it maybe that they're too small to produce the border, or maybe the border 
does show up but too small to display it all correctly, can you resize them at 
least??

Martin

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote:
 They are affected by many of the changes. That is why.

 How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology?  You aren't
 making any sense to me now

You really can't think of any changes that were driven by enterprise
use cases that affect Fedora desktop users?

Examples have been sprinkled throughout this thread already and while
I think all of them end up either being beneficial to or neutral in
their effect eventually to Fedora desktop users they don't begin life
that way.

John
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Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread Michael Schwendt

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:55:55 +, MC (mike) wrote:

 I would like to see something in systemctl to achieve what used to be
 done with service iptables save - as another poster already said one
 can manually do:
 iptables-save  /etc/sysconfig/iptables
 
 Most daemon controls were done with either of service or chkconfig
 - would be nice to have it all within systemctl.
 
 So why not just have this from systemctl using something like
 systemctl save iptables.service ?

service iptables save has been a bad idea.
It's save action has not even been part of LSB.
iptables is not a daemon, at most a one-shot initscript.

IMO, it's much better to decouple iptables-save and systemctl.
systemctl is not the proper interface to use for modifying the
iptables configuration. Neither at run-time nor in /etc/sysconfig.
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/14/2011 12:16 AM, inode0 wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote:
 They are affected by many of the changes. That is why.

 How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology?  You aren't
 making any sense to me now
 
 You really can't think of any changes that were driven by enterprise
 use cases that affect Fedora desktop users?

You specifically asked about new clustering technologies and desktop
users.  I want to know how they are related and why any desktop user
should care about them or be affected by them as you claimed.  I can't
think of the answer and you aren't explaining why you said they are
being affected by the change either.  Did you misspeak?

Rahul
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Re: SystemD - F-16

2011-11-13 Thread Michael Schwendt

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:05:47 -0200, AC (Andre) wrote:

 Maybe if there
 was a similar documentation explaining to old dogs (myself included) how
 to do SysV tasks the systemd way, transition would be easier. I know the
 information is probably already on all the manpages somehow, but I'm
 talking explicitly about something along the if you wanna do this
 sysv-cmd, use this systemd-cmd way.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SysVinit_to_Systemd_Cheatsheet
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Re: Feroda for server

2011-11-13 Thread M A Young

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, Benjamin wrote:

 do i go with RHEL 6 64 bit ?

Or one of the clones such as CentOS or Scientific Linux, if you don't need 
the support and don't want to pay the license fee.

Michael Young
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Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

I am using Fedora 15. This Am when I opened up firefox and went to my 
online banking I noticed my saved user profile was gone. When I went to 
the weather channel's site my firefox security kept asking me for my 
main password, which was weird since that never happened before.

I also noticed the computer was rather sluggish and seemed to be 
swapping a lot. Eventually I got a warning popup saying my home 
directory had 714K free space. I started to free up space. When I got to 
18GB free space I then noticed that in a very little time frame the free 
space dropped to 6.9GB free.

I then rebooted a few times and immediately after each reboot I noticed 
my home directory had 79GB free. This drops rather quickly with in 
minutes. I'd drop from 79GB free to 71GB free in under 5 minutes...

What the heck is going on?


G
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Thomas Cameron

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/13/2011 11:16 AM, JB wrote:
 ? supergiantpotato at yahoo.co.jp writes:
 
 ... 
 The IT market is massively overweight, 
 overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices 
 right now. Open source development for the most common of software 
 system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing 
 services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) = 
 a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy 
 about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the 
 process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is 
 scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating 
 mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good 
 business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on 
 the part of IBM.
 
 IBM created RH 

.and, with that, you get dropped into the tinfoil-hat wearing
filter. plonk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hat#History

 to cover low-end market (RH providing services), eliminating
 pressures from that side by making life miserable for more formidable than RH
 companies and IBM competitors, itself concentrating on lucrative
 mid-to-high-end (mostly mainframe once again, please) side.
 So, back to the future for IBM ... :-)

I guess that's why Gartner and IDC both indicate that Windows and Linux
are the only two mainstream players going forward. Proprietary Unix is
on the wane. The only two OSs with significant growth are Windows and Linux.

See e.g. http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1654914

Sorry, but whining and making absurd claims like you've made make it
really hard to take you seriously.

Thomas
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Re: Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 14:24:12 Gary Waters wrote:
 I am using Fedora 15. This Am when I opened up firefox and went to my
 online banking I noticed my saved user profile was gone. When I went to
 the weather channel's site my firefox security kept asking me for my
 main password, which was weird since that never happened before.
 
 I also noticed the computer was rather sluggish and seemed to be
 swapping a lot. Eventually I got a warning popup saying my home
 directory had 714K free space. I started to free up space. When I got to
 18GB free space I then noticed that in a very little time frame the free
 space dropped to 6.9GB free.
 
 I then rebooted a few times and immediately after each reboot I noticed
 my home directory had 79GB free. This drops rather quickly with in
 minutes. I'd drop from 79GB free to 71GB free in under 5 minutes...
 
 What the heck is going on?
 
 
 G

sounds like a log file going haywire to me, check the size of your 
~/.xsession-errors file

Martin

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

Bruno Wolff III bruno at wolff.to writes:

 
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:45:34 +,
   JB jb.1234abcd at gmail.com wrote:
  Some from an independent Fedora devs, others from other distros by
  adoption of
  those that are useful and not conflicting with its goals.
 
 That is unlikely to happen. More likely the fork would just die.

Perhaps no fork would be required. RH could release tight control of Fedora
for its own interest.
Otherwise, I am afraid, RH is forcing Fedora into irrelevance.

There is a need for an independent distro like Fedora (of a RH-like base)
that can breathe, function, and be governed on its own, and define up front or
acquire these important characteristics:
- uncompromised adherence to UNIX-like principles of development (no chance of
  compromise here - a matter of writing it into its status)
- identity of its own (yes, that means getting rid of the de facto testing
  bed for RH one)
- being attractive to devs and users who would share the above UNIX-like goal
- be modern but stable by choice (offer more recent kernel in comparison to
  RHEL/CentOS/SL, together with more thoughtful choice of software), which
  would fill in the current void in RH-like base of distros

Such Fedora would actually be helpful to RH-like base among distros.

JB


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Re: Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

On 11/13/2011 02:33 PM, Martin Airs wrote:
 On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 14:24:12 Gary Waters wrote:
 I am using Fedora 15. This Am when I opened up firefox and went to my
 online banking I noticed my saved user profile was gone. When I went to
 the weather channel's site my firefox security kept asking me for my
 main password, which was weird since that never happened before.

 I also noticed the computer was rather sluggish and seemed to be
 swapping a lot. Eventually I got a warning popup saying my home
 directory had 714K free space. I started to free up space. When I got to
 18GB free space I then noticed that in a very little time frame the free
 space dropped to 6.9GB free.

 I then rebooted a few times and immediately after each reboot I noticed
 my home directory had 79GB free. This drops rather quickly with in
 minutes. I'd drop from 79GB free to 71GB free in under 5 minutes...

 What the heck is going on?


 G

 sounds like a log file going haywire to me, check the size of your
 ~/.xsession-errors file

 Martin




It's 12.4 KB (12739 bytes)...

Any other suggestions?
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/14/2011 01:04 AM, JB wrote:

 
 Perhaps no fork would be required. 

Even if it is required, it is a lot of work and I am not sure anyone
with just a opinion would be willing to sign up for it.

RH could release tight control of Fedora
 for its own interest.

Be more specific.  Describe in a lot more detail what changes you want
to see and how you are willing to help.

Rahul
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chrome package differences

2011-11-13 Thread jackson byers

$ uname -r
2.6.35.14-103.fc14.i686.PAE

[root@f14 ~]# yum list installed |grep chrom
google-chrome-beta.i386
xorg-x11-drv-openchrome.i686
[root@f14 ~]#

how are these two related?

Are they two distinct complete packages of chrome?

Do I need  both?

Is one a dependency of the other?

At the moment I don't recall just how I installed chrome,
but I don't think I installed these two separately.


Jack
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Re: Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 14:37:06 Gary Waters wrote:
 
 It's 12.4 KB (12739 bytes)...
 
 Any other suggestions?

Hmm, the only other thing i can think of is to use the file size view in 
konqueror to view your home folder, it should be easy to spot the culprit

Martin

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Thomas Cameron

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Hash: SHA1

On 11/13/2011 08:30 AM, Alan Cox wrote:
 Erm, no. Each Fedora release has brought in numerous technical
 improvements. Virtualization, clustering, directory services, more and
 more features and performance per release.
 
 That's a politicians answer. It's completely ignoring the point raised.

Respectfully, Alan, it's not. Fedora's charter has always been a place
for new technologies to get *tested* and considered for inclusion in the
paid distro, RHEL. Are there warts? Obviously. 0-day releases buggy? In
some feature sets - absolutely. But in general, I've found each release
of Fedora to contain more and better features than the previous. I make
no claim it comes out perfect - it certainly doesn't. But the OP's
intimation is that each release is a bigger train wreck than the last,
and I just don't see that as being the case when you take into account
how many changes and new components there are.

To be clear - I don't have the statistics and I'm not going to take the
time to go chase them down, but if you were to look at the rate of bugs
per feature set, I would be surprised if they were higher today than
they were with e.g. FC6.

 It doesn't matter how many features a new release has if it doesn't even
 run properly on lots of systems. 

Ah, but what is lots of systems? Back in, e.g. the FC6 times, there
were MANY fewer users, with a corresponding lower number of systems.
ISTR people were a lot more careful about buying hardware that Linux
would work on. Today, with so much larger a user population, and so many
more systems, is the percentage of problems any higher than the FC6
time? I don't know, but I'd be surprised.

 Most of the features are also
 irrelevant to most of the users. In F15 you could at least make the case
 that Gnome3 was relevant to users even if some hated it and chunks of the
 code were at best prototype state. (and I'd note the Phoronix survey data
 suggests that Gnome 3 is rather more liked than some might think from
 list traffic)

They are very relevant to me, but to be fair, I do work in a larger
enterprise computing environment. To me, Fedora is a fantastic platform
for seeing what's coming. Again, I won't say there aren't issues with
each release. I just don't think that it's really getting worse. In my
experience (I've installed Fedora on literally hundreds of systems from
Dell, HP, IBM and tons of whiteboxes, running both desktop and server
loads), I've had *significantly* less hardware problems than older
versions of Fedora.

 But clustering and directory services, like forcing LVM on hapless end
 users are really irrelevant to most. LVM wasn't a big deal for those who
 knew better - disable it on install and your disk I/O improves, and
 its become vaguely relevant with crypto. All of this is painting the
 fences and hanging bling on a core product which is getting a bit
 wobblier every release

I won't argue that LVM is not the best choice for high disk I/O
workloads, but the convenience of LVM for average users likely outweighs
the performance hit.

 It's bloated

One might argue it's got more features, and you can easily trim out the
ones you don't like.

 It picks bad user defaults

Depends on who you consider the target audience. Does it choose bad
defaults for heavy I/O server use? Probably. Does it allow you to
closely configure the settings for specialty use? Yes, and I'd argue
much better than most OSs out there.

 It ships a default desktop which burns CPU horribly

OK, you got me there, but remember back when KDE 4 shipped. Don't you
remember the howls of righteous indignation?

Now my KDE-using friends are back to touting KDE as the best thing since
sliced bread, and the friendly desktop banter is back in full swing. The
only way that happened was for KDE 4 to get released, warts and all, and
the community to beat it into submission.

 And what? All the engineers at Red Hat develop new tech in Fedora. Where
 do you propose those new technologies come from if Red Hat splits off?
 
 Perhaps the Red Hat engineers could QA their new technologies a bit
 more before including them ?

They are QAing their software, by putting it out into the community for
review and comment. Beware the bleeding edge, it's sharp.

 I don't buy the big problem claim here. Several other releases have
 been a bit wobbly especially out of the box first release. Nor do a few
 crash reports in themselves form a statistically valid sample.

See above - I am not surprised they are wobbly, but if you look at any
Fedora release after a few weeks, it's very solid. As expected.

 I do think that as has happened a couple of times before now it's time
 Fedora spent a release or two being more conservative on new toys and
 fixing the ones it already has.

Fair point.

 Linux distros:
 http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/y

 Without knowing a *lot* about how this information was gathered, it's
 meaningless.
 
 Ah the cult of

Re: chrome package differences

On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 11:47:02 jackson byers wrote:
 $ uname -r
 2.6.35.14-103.fc14.i686.PAE
 
 [root@f14 ~]# yum list installed |grep chrom
 google-chrome-beta.i386
 xorg-x11-drv-openchrome.i686
 [root@f14 ~]#
 
 how are these two related?
 
 Are they two distinct complete packages of chrome?
 
 Do I need  both?
 
 Is one a dependency of the other?
 
 At the moment I don't recall just how I installed chrome,
 but I don't think I installed these two separately.
 
 
 Jack

It looks like they're completely unrelated
yum info xorg-x11-drv-openchrome results..

Available Packages
Name: xorg-x11-drv-openchrome
Arch: i686
Version : 0.2.904
Release : 16.fc16
Size: 151 k
Repo: fedora
Summary : Xorg X11 openchrome video driver
URL : http://www.openchrome.org
Licence : MIT
Description : X.Org X11 openchrome video driver.



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Re: Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

2011-11-13 Thread Mark LaPierre

On 11/13/2011 02:37 PM, Gary Waters wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 02:33 PM, Martin Airs wrote:
 On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 14:24:12 Gary Waters wrote:
 I am using Fedora 15. This Am when I opened up firefox and went to my
 online banking I noticed my saved user profile was gone. When I went to
 the weather channel's site my firefox security kept asking me for my
 main password, which was weird since that never happened before.

 I also noticed the computer was rather sluggish and seemed to be
 swapping a lot. Eventually I got a warning popup saying my home
 directory had 714K free space. I started to free up space. When I got to
 18GB free space I then noticed that in a very little time frame the free
 space dropped to 6.9GB free.

 I then rebooted a few times and immediately after each reboot I noticed
 my home directory had 79GB free. This drops rather quickly with in
 minutes. I'd drop from 79GB free to 71GB free in under 5 minutes...

 What the heck is going on?


 G
 sounds like a log file going haywire to me, check the size of your
 ~/.xsession-errors file

 Martin



 It's 12.4 KB (12739 bytes)...

 Any other suggestions?
There is a command line utility that might help you find the offending file.

Try this: cd
try this: du -k | less

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fedora as wifi access point; usb recommendation

2011-11-13 Thread Mike Wright

Hi all,

I want to configure an f-box as a wi-fi access point.  Anybody out there 
doing that?

Looked at hostapd but am confused about nl80211 requirement.  I built 
from src and it seems to include that driver intrinscally as well as 
atheros and broadcom support.

Does the fedora build of hostapd provide all of these required drivers?

I hope all I need is a supported adapter.  Recommendations?

Lots of googling but still confused.

Helpers?

Thanks,
Mike Wright
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Re: fedora as wifi access point; usb recommendation

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:13:44 -0800
Mike Wright wrote:

 I hope all I need is a supported adapter.  Recommendations?

I've tried this with some (but limited) success. Here is
my saga:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomhorsley/hardware/rtl8192cu/rtl8192cu.html

The new ralink dongle it says I got working in that
web page, is actually quite finicky. I have to try it
several times, plugging and unplugging and starting
over, and eventually I can get it to connect and work
(and not overheat). Here's the bug I submitted:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=716988

I haven't tried the old or new dongle with fedora 16
yet. Perhaps they'll work better.
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Re: Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

On 11/13/2011 02:47 PM, Martin Airs wrote:
 On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 14:37:06 Gary Waters wrote:

 It's 12.4 KB (12739 bytes)...

 Any other suggestions?

 Hmm, the only other thing i can think of is to use the file size view in
 konqueror to view your home folder, it should be easy to spot the culprit

 Martin




That's what I'm doing. This is weird. It has dropped to 67.7 GB free. I 
ran rkhunter for the hell of it...clean. It would seem .cache is 
ballooning... it's gone from 12.4gb to 19 gb in no time at all
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What determines mdraid minor device numbers

2011-11-13 Thread Sam Varshavchik


I have existing mdraid arrays. They get mounted as /dev/md0 through /dev/md2.

After some sweat and tears, I reduces the size of one of them, and used the  
free disk space to assemble a new array (all arrays we're talking here are  
raid 1, with two disks). I formatted the new md device as ext3.


I added UUID=uuid /mountpoint to /etc/fstab.

At bootup, the new array gets automounted on /dev/md127 for some reason.  
Everything's fine, I see no issues except for the unexpected device minor  
number.


Anyone care to enlighten me, how mdraid minor numbers get handed out, and  
why the one I manually created comes up as a high number, even though the  
next free minor device is, obviously, /dev/md3.





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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

Thomas Cameron thomas.cameron at camerontech.com writes:

 
 
 On 11/13/2011 11:16 AM, JB wrote:
  ? supergiantpotato at yahoo.co.jp writes:
  
  ... 
  The IT market is massively overweight, 
  overvalued and engages in enormously wasteful development practices 
  right now. Open source development for the most common of software 
  system elements + a revenue stream based on hardware sales and computing 
  services provision (a very broad category worth huge money on its own) = 
  a better model for the customer. IBM knows this. Intel isn't too happy 
  about this. RedHat has placed itself at the most critical part of the 
  process as the servicer. Microsoft is done creating success and is 
  scrambling to now not create failure -- which is a really bad operating 
  mode for a business (IBM was there once itself). That's just good 
  business on RedHat's part and indicates a mature market understanding on 
  the part of IBM.
  
  IBM created RH 
 
 .and, with that, you get dropped into the tinfoil-hat wearing
 filter. plonk
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hat#History
 

That's not what I meant:
...
In 1993 Bob Young incorporated the ACC Corporation, a catalog business that
sold Linux and UNIX software accessories. In 1994 Marc Ewing created his own
Linux distribution, which he named Red Hat Linux[7]
...

This *is* what I meant:
...
On December 14, 1998, Red Hat made its first divestment, in which parts of the
company are sold to another company, when Intel and Netscape acquired an
undisclosed minority stake. The next year, on March 9, 1999, Compaq, IBM, Dell
and Novell each acquired undisclosed minority stakes in Red Hat.
...
Red Hat went public on August 11, 1999, achieving the eighth-biggest
 first-day gain in the history of Wall Street.
...

Can you see IBM in there ?
Who was the first major company who recognized Linux potential as understood 
by it and put its weight behind it ? And why ? Out of love ?
Who became (after its reorganization) the major player in computer services ?

plonk

Did you really say that ?

 ...

Thomas, get your act together :-)

JB


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Re: Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

On 11/13/2011 03:27 PM, Gary Waters wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 02:47 PM, Martin Airs wrote:
 On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 14:37:06 Gary Waters wrote:

 It's 12.4 KB (12739 bytes)...

 Any other suggestions?

 Hmm, the only other thing i can think of is to use the file size view in
 konqueror to view your home folder, it should be easy to spot the culprit

 Martin




 That's what I'm doing. This is weird. It has dropped to 67.7 GB free. I
 ran rkhunter for the hell of it...clean. It would seem .cache is
 ballooning... it's gone from 12.4gb to 19 gb in no time at all

The offending file appears to be /home/admin/.cache/tracker/meta.db-wal

What in the name of the sweet lawd jaysus is that? How do I rectify 
this? I'm kinda from planet noobie at this level..

G
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote:
 They are affected by many of the changes. That is why.

 How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology?  You aren't
 making any sense to me now

Let's start over.

User #1 says Fedora is getting worse each release.
User #2 says You are nuts, Fedora is great. Look at all this
innovation - virtualization, clustering, etc.

I was pointing out that one problem we have that this demonstrates is
two big user communities. Sure they overlap but they are different.
Both of the above views of Fedora make perfect sense at the same time.

User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its
target audience. User #2 is more from the enterprise consumer side of
Fedora's community. My suggestion was to be more open about the
importance of both of these user bases to help resolve the bad
communication between them if nothing else.

Sometimes innovation is driven by enterprise use cases. Sometimes that
innovation affects Fedora users generally, even the ones that don't
care about enterprise use cases. While those in our expressed target
audience need to understand that sometimes they will be subjected to
some things that they really don't care about for the good of the
larger Fedora user community. And those driving that innovation need
to keep in mind the effect it has on our target base so they aren't
overwhelmed by what they see as needless change that is just making
their use of Fedora unpleasant to the point they stop.

John
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Re: Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

2011-11-13 Thread Frank Cox

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:38:43 -0500
Gary Waters wrote:

 The offending file appears to be /home/admin/.cache/tracker/meta.db-wal
 
 What in the name of the sweet lawd jaysus is that? How do I rectify 
 this? I'm kinda from planet noobie at this level..

running .cache/tracker/meta.db-wal through google comes up with some
interesting bug reports.

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Re: Re: Free Space fluctuations - Home directory Weirdness

On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 15:38:43 Gary Waters wrote:
 The offending file appears to be /home/admin/.cache/tracker/meta.db-wal
 
 What in the name of the sweet lawd jaysus is that? How do I rectify
 this? I'm kinda from planet noobie at this level..
 
 G

aaah, that tracker thing is like strigi for kde, it indexes all your files for 
fast searching i think, The way I stopped it was to yum install tracker-ui-
tools (which isn't installed by) default, and took out the directories it 
scans in there, and it doesn't start anymore for me, or you can just get rid 
of the relevant .desktop files in /etc/xdg/autostart, but they'll reappear 
after updates.

try tracker-ui-tools first and then you'll have a preferences tool to 
hopefully shut it off

Martin

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Re: Little Yellow Boxes

2011-11-13 Thread Jonathan Ryshpan

On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 18:38 +, Martin Airs wrote:
 On Sunday 13 Nov 2011 09:56:32 Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
  Deleting a note isn't so easy; there's been a fair amount of discussion
  on the web about how to remove widgets, none of it informative.  I would
  have thought that if a note is right clicked, a menu would appear with
  an option to delete the note.  When I right click one of these notes a
  menu does appear with many options for editing the note, but no option
  to delete it.  An ordinary note is larger and has a border at the
  bottom, which when right clicked produces a option to delete it.

 with widgets unlocked, these notes should have a semi transparent border 
 appear around them when you hover your mouse over them, and should have the 
 usual resize, rotate and delete icons in it.

No such border exists.

 it maybe that they're too small to produce the border, or maybe the border 
 does show up but too small to display it all correctly, can you resize them 
 at 
 least??

These little windows can't be resized or moved.  Windows generated by
using the menu got by right or center clicking the Knote icon in the
tray have a partial border at the top which can be used to drag them,
can be resized, and a partial border at the bottom which generates a
menu when right clicked that has a function that deletes them (among
others).  An image of a normal Knote window is attached.

Interestingly, the Find option got by right clicking the Knote icon in
the tray finds text in normal Knote windows but not in the little boxes
at the bottom of the screen.

Thanks for all your help - jon

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On 11/14/2011 02:12 AM, inode0 wrote:

 User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its
 target audience. User #2 is more from the enterprise consumer side of
 Fedora's community. My suggestion was to be more open about the
 importance of both of these user bases to help resolve the bad
 communication between them if nothing else.
 
 Sometimes innovation is driven by enterprise use cases. Sometimes that
 innovation affects Fedora users generally, even the ones that don't
 care about enterprise use cases.

Yes but the specific example of desktop user being affected by new
clustering technologies didn't make sense to me and is poorly chosen
IMO.  I don't think you have found a way to explain it either.  If you
want to talk about conflicts, say the way SELinux was introduced might
be a much better example.  It is important to recognize however that
sometimes technologies don't fit neatly into enterprise vs otherwise.
 For instance,  systemd fits both categories just fine.

Rahul
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Thomas Cameron

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On 11/13/2011 02:42 PM, inode0 wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/13/2011 11:57 PM, inode0 wrote:
 They are affected by many of the changes. That is why.

 How is a desktop user affected by new clustering technology?  You aren't
 making any sense to me now
 
 Let's start over.
 
 User #1 says Fedora is getting worse each release.
 User #2 says You are nuts, Fedora is great. Look at all this
 innovation - virtualization, clustering, etc.
 
 I was pointing out that one problem we have that this demonstrates is
 two big user communities. Sure they overlap but they are different.
 Both of the above views of Fedora make perfect sense at the same time.
 
 User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its
 target audience. 

Is he? I don't see anything at http://fedoraproject.org/en/about-fedora
that says it's specifically targeted at consumer-class users. In fact,
if you look at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#User_base_.28also_known_as_target_audience.29
it makes pretty clear that there is no one class of users.

 User #2 is more from the enterprise consumer side of
 Fedora's community. My suggestion was to be more open about the
 importance of both of these user bases to help resolve the bad
 communication between them if nothing else.

I think it's pretty clearly pointed out already - Fedora is not a one
size fits all, and that's what some people expect it to be. Fedora
targets many (or maybe one very wide) audiences. I think the real beauty
of Fedora is the ability to customize the heck out of it. I run it on
everything from my 4- and 8-year old daughter's laptops to a lab cluster
with iSCSI storage and virtual machines as clustered resources. It's
*incredibly* flexible. Of course, the builds are radically different
between those laptops and the cluster, but the install media is
identical. That's the strength and beauty of this distribution. If I
expected it to be a one size fits all, I bet I'd be disappointed, too.

Now, I absolutely understand the OP's and others' echoed concerns and
frustrations. I don't like bugs any more than the next guy. But I feel
like maybe there's some round hole/square peg going on here. Fedora,
almost by definition, will be bleeding edge and therefore, somewhat
buggy. But, really, our version of buggy is *so* much better than I
deal with as regards most closed source commercial code, it's not even
funny.

 Sometimes innovation is driven by enterprise use cases. Sometimes that
 innovation affects Fedora users generally, even the ones that don't
 care about enterprise use cases. While those in our expressed target
 audience 

See above - I think there are some assumption mismatches here.

 need to understand that sometimes they will be subjected to
 some things that they really don't care about for the good of the
 larger Fedora user community. And those driving that innovation need
 to keep in mind the effect it has on our target base 

...

 so they aren't
 overwhelmed by what they see as needless change that is just making
 their use of Fedora unpleasant to the point they stop.

I *think* we're actually agreeing here in many ways, John. My perception
of what the target audience is may very well be wrong, but it seems to
me that it's been very clearly defined as damn near everyone, with an
expectation that you're going to mod the installation to your needs. If
I wanted a click next, next, next, take what we damned well tell you
to, and like it installation, I would run closed source.

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 11/14/2011 02:12 AM, inode0 wrote:
 User #1 is from the user base professed by the project to be its
 target audience. User #2 is more from the enterprise consumer side of
 Fedora's community. My suggestion was to be more open about the
 importance of both of these user bases to help resolve the bad
 communication between them if nothing else.

 Sometimes innovation is driven by enterprise use cases. Sometimes that
 innovation affects Fedora users generally, even the ones that don't
 care about enterprise use cases.

 Yes but the specific example of desktop user being affected by new
 clustering technologies didn't make sense to me and is poorly chosen
 IMO.  I don't think you have found a way to explain it either.  If you
 want to talk about conflicts, say the way SELinux was introduced might
 be a much better example.  It is important to recognize however that
 sometimes technologies don't fit neatly into enterprise vs otherwise.
  For instance,  systemd fits both categories just fine.

I wasn't using clustering as an example of something affecting a
user's desktop. I am not going to try to explain it because that was
never my intention. And the only reason I didn't bring up SELinux or
any other specific innovation is because I don't want to argue about
the innovation. I wanted to make a more abstract point. I think you
now do understand what I was trying to convey so we can let it go now.

John
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Re: Problems with DNS name server in Fedora 16

2011-11-13 Thread Michael Hannon

 Another good suggestion.  I had forgotten about the immutable attribute.
 I've set it now.  (It's a safe bet that in six months or so I'll be sending
 a note to the list, whining about how I can't edit resolv.conf ;-)

 Suggestion: take off the immutable bit, now, add a comment saying that it's
 immutable (and why) then re-run chatter +i so that next time you need to
 edit it, you'll have a reminder inside the file.

Yet another good idea, and now implemented.  Thanks.

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Re: Problems with DNS name server in Fedora 16

2011-11-13 Thread Michael Hannon

 I don't understand why the resolver didn't fall through to the second
 nameserver, but it evidently did not.  After I put the nameservers in the
 order you suggest, everything seems to be working fine!

 Because the multiple servers are only good for the first server failing.
 Once the first server says I know there isn't any such name defined, it
 doesn't ask the 2nd server.

Yep, that makes perfect sense.  Thanks, Tom.

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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?

2011-11-13 Thread Alan Cox

 like maybe there's some round hole/square peg going on here. Fedora,
 almost by definition, will be bleeding edge and therefore, somewhat
 buggy. But, really, our version of buggy is *so* much better than I
 deal with as regards most closed source commercial code, it's not even
 funny.

This is the Its ok to torture people providing we do it a bit less than
the bad guys argument. I don't buy it.

Fedora should aspire to quality. Yes being leading edge means it'll be a
bit rougher unavoidably and it's always going to hit a few doh cases
that look really silly and got missed. Yes if you want a quite life you
should be running Centos.

That doesn't mean Fedora should be sloppy because once your bugginess
passes a certain point it becomes impossible to work with. Every time you
try and fix something it breaks somewhere else. Fedora is a long way from
that at the moment but it's slowly slipping that way in F15 and F16. It's
just something which in the normal order of things is going to create
pushback and complaining which should correct the slippage.

Nothing needs saving just a bit of process focus tweakage.

 expectation that you're going to mod the installation to your needs. If
 I wanted a click next, next, next, take what we damned well tell you
 to, and like it installation, I would run closed source.

Well I expect open source to be at least as good as closed source. So if
the closed source can get 'just hit next' right, the open source ought to
be able to do. It's not exactly hard, Even Ubuntu pretty much manages
that one.

Just hit next is a *feature*. It's a sign of good design, and of
quality. It's also a really good stability feature because most users
just hit next so you know which path to test the crap out of.

Alan
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USB printer discovery

2011-11-13 Thread antonio montagnani

I have an USB laser printer (Samsung ML-1610): should it be  discovered 
by Fedora? how long does it take the discovery process??
Manual set-up work  flawlessly.

Tnx
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Re: Trends - how to save Fedora ?