Re: How long to fix a bug?
Brian: Many thanks for going to the trouble. Responses to your points are interwoven in green below. On 24 Apr 2014, at 16:35, Brian Barker wrote: At 15:10 24/04/2014 +0100, Nobody Noname wrote: How long does it take to fix a bug, please? When they are not bugs, a long time! Yes, surely, very droll. But when they are... ? Two of the examples were subsequently confirmed as bugs. But it took 4 and a half years for BUG 98752 to be confirmed as a bug, and that was after Hagar Delest had confirmed it, as previously referenced. The other took more than two years. In this, am presuming that if a bug is unconfirmed, it is not in the pipe to get fixed, and has in practice been dismissed. So all of that time is dead time. https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=98752 EXAMPLE 3: UPDATING STYLES - BUG 121785 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121785 Reported 18 Feb 2013. There is a problem with updating styles, which doesn't behave as stated in help (which covers the topic very badly). Are you sure this is a bug? Yes. If you go to Help and follow the steps in 'Updating Styles From Selections' the style is not updated. It fails at step 3. So users are stuffed, essentially. Also see the pin note at the same reference. Suppose there is a technical argument that it is not a bug because the program is right and Help is wrong, but from the users' point of view there is something very seriously wrong. So it needs to be fixed, whatever you want to call it. NB That Help does not mention the toolbar icon for updating styles. Nor does it mention control click/update paragraph style. o If you change the format of just some part of a paragraph, you have not changed the paragraph, so I would not expect or want any update to affect the paragraph style. I might want a character style updated, but that would presuppose that I'd made the change to an area that already had a non-default character style already applied. Fair point. You can argue it both ways. But: While Help tells you that it should, that is what should happen. Pages works that way. Given apple's marketing preeminence, that would seem to suggest that it is not such a bad idea. Working on long documents, it is much quicker and easier to change a small section then update the style than have to do some precision cursor work to amend and select the whole paragraph - which may bridge a page or more. Note that, unlike the Default paragraph style, the Default character style has no properties and cannot be modified - or, therefore, updated.g You can change the default paragraph style using control click or right click/update paragraph style... Provided the cursor is in default style when you do so. o The behaviour of the Update Style menu item in the Styles and Formatting dialogue is dependent on the style selected in that dialogue - and this relies in turn on the selection of style types through the buttons in its toolbar. Note that you may have a character style and a paragraph style, say, with the same name. Your continued reference to plain styles suggests you may be missing this distinction. Sorry for any imprecision. Paragraph styles infinitely more important in any serious word processing. That is why they are the only ones displayed in the toolbar drop down list. o Your workaround through the context menu (and there is nothing secret about that, of course) works because that way you clarify that you are wanting to affect a paragraph style. From the point of view of the ordinary user who does not know Open Office backwards it is secret because: It is not mentioned in Help - see above There is no icon for it There is no menu item for it. So unless you happen to stumble into it, you do not know it is there. Which is a real shame, because it is the most useful way to update styles, and at times the only certain and foolproof one. o The behaviour of paragraph styles, character styles, and direct formatting does take a bit of learning. It has certainly been a long and arduous learning curve for me. Assume the same for others, this is a real shame, as it should not be so difficult, nor mysterious, nor should you be tripped up by Help entries that don't work. All of that detracts greatly from the pleasure and utility of Open Office. My suspicion is that a lot of folk are stuck with the built in styles which are not to their taste so either don't use them, so lose functionality, or abandon Open Office for something else. EXAMPLE 4 : ICON LABELS BUG 121766 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121766 This one is embarrassing. Undo is labelled 'Can't Undo and Redo similarly, and have been since 2007 at least, which must be obvious to millions of users. Astonishing that no-one has picked it up. I haven't picked it up because I see nothing to be picked up. There are contexts in which you cannot
Re: How long to fix a bug?
Rob: Many thanks. A couple of responses below. Plus an overarching one: There is nothing in Help to tell users how to report a bug. Nor a menu item to help them to do so. On 24 Apr 2014, at 16:38, Rob Weir wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:10 AM, circul...@gmx.com wrote: How long does it take to fix a bug, please? It depends on the bug. Some get fixed quickly. Some may never be fixed. And is there any point in reporting them? Yes. Even if a bug is not quickly fixed it is good for the developers to know what bugs are out there. In some cases when they make a major change in one area they will look in Bugzilla to see if there are any other related bugs (lower priority ones) that they can fix at the same time. Bug reports are useful for users as well, and IT professionals who support users. The bug reports can describe workarounds, and at the very least they confirm the bug exists, which can reduce the frustration of users when they are not being certain. Its great that some of them are getting confirmed now, but even that has taken several years in some of the examples below - 4 1/2 years in one. None have been fixed yet. (nb only have public wifi so can't download the latest beta - sorry). You can find ones older than that, if you look hard enough. But this is not a queue for movie tickets. Bugs are triaged according to severity and impact, not time. Volunteers typically prioritize based on that, though obviously their own interests and expertise play a role as well. The primary problem highlighted is that the bugs will not enter the queue until they are confirmed. Presumably someone examines them when they are submitted to decide whether to confirm them or not, as part of the triage. That is where things seem to be going wrong. On that, would add that if, after having discovered a bug and presumably had a nightmare with it, then put in the time and effort necessary to report it, it is left unconfirmed without explanation, they are likely to conclude that it is not worth the trouble in future. Might it be an idea to have a 'bug moderator', who you can appeal to if nothing happens? Or is that best done here? Trouble is a lot of people will not know of this forum, and it might waste users' time. There are several serious bugs to report - particularly in outline and template management, while working in metric (which presumably the vast majority of users do) is a nightmare at present. But doing so is time consuming, and there seems little point if nothing is getting fixed, or certainly no urgency if it takes years to do so. EXAMPLE 1: BUG IN OUTLINE - BUG 98752 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=98752 This was first reported 02 February 2009 but was not confirmed. It caused me huge problems in 2011 so was reported independently on the forum (because finding out how to report a bug was so obscure) and confirmed by Hagar Delest on 01 October 2011 here: https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7t=44287p=204470sid=d016d92716a51e5c9d2cf10631ae8b0d #p204470 Did as required. Nothing happened until 07 August 2013 when Rob picked it up, which was a very welcome surprise after so long. The QA volunteers have been doing a great job working on the back log of older, unconfirmed issues. In many cases we find the old issues are stuck for lack of additional information from the reporter of the issue, e.g., lack of an example document. Good to hear. Thanks to all concerned. Not generalising from personal experience, but no-one has ever been back to me for more information on a reported bug. My feeling is that anyone who has gone to the trouble of logging a bug would be happy to help clarify it if approached. In other cases old bugs are no longer reproducible. They were fixed in an earlier release. And in some cases they are real defects which we are glad to classify as such. The goal of reviewing these old reports is to make sure that Bugzilla correctly reflects the actual state of the OpenOffice product, what bugs actually exist in the most recent version. It is slow work, but we're catching up. What might be an idea is somewhere to look at stats for bugs - reported, confirmed, fixed etc, perhaps a listing of the pipe and those that are being currently resolved - so that folk can see what is going on. Or at minimum, putting a report in the new newsletter from time to time. Be much easier to appreciate the scale of the problem (for want of a better expression). It would also be great to know what is being developed, enhanced etc - especially if we could make input before it is finalised. Btw, if you (or anyone else) is interested in helping with this, we welcome all volunteers. Personally I find it a relaxing diversion to review old bug reports, see if they still are bugs, remove duplicate reports, etc. Info for how to get involved is here:
Re: How long to fix a bug?
How long does it take to fix a bug, please? If you are not a paying customer, it can take forever. People in OpenSource tend to work for free not a bit more eager than everywhere else. --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: How long to fix a bug?
Many thanks Martin Just serious word processing, actually. Is there anywhere we can look at the the results of these elections? Have no idea how many votes a popular bug would get to put these figures in context. As bug reporting is very much an esoteric process, it might be reasonable to speculate that the votes reflect the desires of the cognoscenti, which may differ markedly from the ordinary user, who just endures bugs and does their best to get by, never having heard of Bugzilla. Also, am having trouble checking, but is it not the case that you only have 5 votes anyway. So once you have reported 5, you have no leeway to have any say in anything else. Maybe if everyone was given 100 votes (or something) the results would better reflect real preferences. Stay happy On 25 Apr 2014, at 01:53, Martin Groenescheij wrote: I agree that this could be a problem for users that go further than word processing, You're probably use it for desktop publishing. If you want that this get more attention you have to pursue other users to vote for it. For your information I have added the priorities and votes inline. For me it looks like only a minority is interested to get this fixed or they are not aware that they can vote. Sent from my mobile device. On 25 Apr 2014, at 12:10 am, circul...@gmx.com wrote: How long does it take to fix a bug, please? And is there any point in reporting them? Its great that some of them are getting confirmed now, but even that has taken several years in some of the examples below - 4 1/2 years in one. None have been fixed yet. (nb only have public wifi so can't download the latest beta - sorry). There are several serious bugs to report - particularly in outline and template management, while working in metric (which presumably the vast majority of users do) is a nightmare at present. But doing so is time consuming, and there seems little point if nothing is getting fixed, or certainly no urgency if it takes years to do so. EXAMPLE 1: BUG IN OUTLINE - BUG 98752 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=98752 This was first reported 02 February 2009 but was not confirmed. It caused me huge problems in 2011 so was reported independently on the forum (because finding out how to report a bug was so obscure) and confirmed by Hagar Delest on 01 October 2011 here: https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7t=44287p=204470sid=d016d92716a51e5c9d2cf10631ae8b0d #p204470 Did as required. Nothing happened until 07 August 2013 when Rob picked it up, which was a very welcome surprise after so long. This bug has Priority P3 and 2 votes. EXAMPLE 2: ORGANISING TEMPLATES - BUG 118552 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118552 First reported 26 October 2011. Confirmed on 03 April 2014. Still hasn't been fixed. This bug has Priority P3 and 1 votes. EXAMPLE 3: UPDATING STYLES - BUG 121785 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121785 Reported 18 Feb 2013. There is a problem with updating styles, which doesn't behave as stated in help (which covers the topic very badly). On this one, can't get the problem confirmed, and can't even get a response. This bug has Priority P3 and no vote. EXAMPLE 4 : ICON LABELS BUG 121766 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121766 This one is embarrassing. Undo is labelled 'Can't Undo and Redo similarly, and have been since 2007 at least, which must be obvious to millions of users. Astonishing that no-one has picked it up. Reported it on 13 February 2013 was confirmed admirably quickly. Naively, it would seem dead simple to fix - just correcting a couple of labels - but it slipped through to OpenOffice 4 and is still there. This bug has Priority P3 and no vote. --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: How long to fix a bug?
Thank you. People who report bugs are working for free too, and are also a part of the OpenSource community. We are all trying to make Open Office better. Unfortunately something sub-optimal has emerged so it has been flagged up for that purpose. Please refer to the original email in this thread, which contains the details. It consumes a lot of time to do that too. Stay happy On 25 Apr 2014, at 16:16, Urmas wrote: How long does it take to fix a bug, please? If you are not a paying customer, it can take forever. People in OpenSource tend to work for free not a bit more eager than everywhere else. --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
How long to fix a bug?
How long does it take to fix a bug, please? And is there any point in reporting them? Its great that some of them are getting confirmed now, but even that has taken several years in some of the examples below - 4 1/2 years in one. None have been fixed yet. (nb only have public wifi so can't download the latest beta - sorry). There are several serious bugs to report - particularly in outline and template management, while working in metric (which presumably the vast majority of users do) is a nightmare at present. But doing so is time consuming, and there seems little point if nothing is getting fixed, or certainly no urgency if it takes years to do so. EXAMPLE 1: BUG IN OUTLINE - BUG 98752 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=98752 This was first reported 02 February 2009 but was not confirmed. It caused me huge problems in 2011 so was reported independently on the forum (because finding out how to report a bug was so obscure) and confirmed by Hagar Delest on 01 October 2011 here: https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7t=44287p=204470sid=d016d92716a51e5c9d2cf10631ae8b0d #p204470 Did as required. Nothing happened until 07 August 2013 when Rob picked it up, which was a very welcome surprise after so long. EXAMPLE 2: ORGANISING TEMPLATES - BUG 118552 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118552 First reported 26 October 2011. Confirmed on 03 April 2014. Still hasn't been fixed. EXAMPLE 3: UPDATING STYLES - BUG 121785 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121785 Reported 18 Feb 2013. There is a problem with updating styles, which doesn't behave as stated in help (which covers the topic very badly). On this one, can't get the problem confirmed, and can't even get a response. EXAMPLE 4 : ICON LABELS BUG 121766 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121766 This one is embarrassing. Undo is labelled 'Can't Undo and Redo similarly, and have been since 2007 at least, which must be obvious to millions of users. Astonishing that no-one has picked it up. Reported it on 13 February 2013 was confirmed admirably quickly. Naively, it would seem dead simple to fix - just correcting a couple of labels - but it slipped through to OpenOffice 4 and is still there.
Re: How long to fix a bug?
At 15:10 24/04/2014 +0100, Nobody Noname wrote: How long does it take to fix a bug, please? When they are not bugs, a long time! EXAMPLE 3: UPDATING STYLES - BUG 121785 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121785 Reported 18 Feb 2013. There is a problem with updating styles, which doesn't behave as stated in help (which covers the topic very badly). Are you sure this is a bug? o If you change the format of just some part of a paragraph, you have not changed the paragraph, so I would not expect or want any update to affect the paragraph style. I might want a character style updated, but that would presuppose that I'd made the change to an area that already had a non-default character style already applied. Note that, unlike the Default paragraph style, the Default character style has no properties and cannot be modified - or, therefore, updated. o The behaviour of the Update Style menu item in the Styles and Formatting dialogue is dependent on the style selected in that dialogue - and this relies in turn on the selection of style types through the buttons in its toolbar. Note that you may have a character style and a paragraph style, say, with the same name. Your continued reference to plain styles suggests you may be missing this distinction. o Your workaround through the context menu (and there is nothing secret about that, of course) works because that way you clarify that you are wanting to affect a paragraph style. o The behaviour of paragraph styles, character styles, and direct formatting does take a bit of learning. EXAMPLE 4 : ICON LABELS BUG 121766 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121766 This one is embarrassing. Undo is labelled 'Can't Undo and Redo similarly, and have been since 2007 at least, which must be obvious to millions of users. Astonishing that no-one has picked it up. I haven't picked it up because I see nothing to be picked up. There are contexts in which you cannot undo anything - for example, when you have just opened or reloaded a document - and the Undo menu item and Undo icon are each greyed out and - perhaps helpfully - changed to read Can't Undo. Similarly for Redo, which means something only immediately after an Undo and is otherwise greyed out and retitled. (Why it says Can't Restore instead of Can't Redo I don't know.) Incidentally, I'm not sure I accept your stricture that [i]t is also a very strong imperative that Open Office should be consistent with other productivity suites. I don't expect free software necessarily to be a clone of commercial products and I'm happy for OpenOffice to improve on such alternative products! (I suspect that in the area of styles it does.) I trust this helps. Brian Barker --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: How long to fix a bug?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:10 AM, circul...@gmx.com wrote: How long does it take to fix a bug, please? It depends on the bug. Some get fixed quickly. Some may never be fixed. And is there any point in reporting them? Yes. Even if a bug is not quickly fixed it is good for the developers to know what bugs are out there. In some cases when they make a major change in one area they will look in Bugzilla to see if there are any other related bugs (lower priority ones) that they can fix at the same time. Bug reports are useful for users as well, and IT professionals who support users. The bug reports can describe workarounds, and at the very least they confirm the bug exists, which can reduce the frustration of users when they are not being certain. Its great that some of them are getting confirmed now, but even that has taken several years in some of the examples below - 4 1/2 years in one. None have been fixed yet. (nb only have public wifi so can't download the latest beta - sorry). You can find ones older than that, if you look hard enough. But this is not a queue for movie tickets. Bugs are triaged according to severity and impact, not time. Volunteers typically prioritize based on that, though obviously their own interests and expertise play a role as well. There are several serious bugs to report - particularly in outline and template management, while working in metric (which presumably the vast majority of users do) is a nightmare at present. But doing so is time consuming, and there seems little point if nothing is getting fixed, or certainly no urgency if it takes years to do so. EXAMPLE 1: BUG IN OUTLINE - BUG 98752 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=98752 This was first reported 02 February 2009 but was not confirmed. It caused me huge problems in 2011 so was reported independently on the forum (because finding out how to report a bug was so obscure) and confirmed by Hagar Delest on 01 October 2011 here: https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7t=44287p=204470sid=d016d92716a51e5c9d2cf10631ae8b0d#p204470 Did as required. Nothing happened until 07 August 2013 when Rob picked it up, which was a very welcome surprise after so long. The QA volunteers have been doing a great job working on the back log of older, unconfirmed issues. In many cases we find the old issues are stuck for lack of additional information from the reporter of the issue, e.g., lack of an example document. In other cases old bugs are no longer reproducible. They were fixed in an earlier release. And in some cases they are real defects which we are glad to classify as such. The goal of reviewing these old reports is to make sure that Bugzilla correctly reflects the actual state of the OpenOffice product, what bugs actually exist in the most recent version. It is slow work, but we're catching up. Btw, if you (or anyone else) is interested in helping with this, we welcome all volunteers. Personally I find it a relaxing diversion to review old bug reports, see if they still are bugs, remove duplicate reports, etc. Info for how to get involved is here: http://openoffice.apache.org/orientation/intro-qa.html Regards, -Rob EXAMPLE 2: ORGANISING TEMPLATES - BUG 118552 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118552 First reported 26 October 2011. Confirmed on 03 April 2014. Still hasn't been fixed. EXAMPLE 3: UPDATING STYLES - BUG 121785 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121785 Reported 18 Feb 2013. There is a problem with updating styles, which doesn't behave as stated in help (which covers the topic very badly). On this one, can't get the problem confirmed, and can't even get a response. EXAMPLE 4 : ICON LABELS BUG 121766 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121766 This one is embarrassing. Undo is labelled 'Can't Undo and Redo similarly, and have been since 2007 at least, which must be obvious to millions of users. Astonishing that no-one has picked it up. Reported it on 13 February 2013 was confirmed admirably quickly. Naively, it would seem dead simple to fix - just correcting a couple of labels - but it slipped through to OpenOffice 4 and is still there. --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: How long to fix a bug?
I agree that this could be a problem for users that go further than word processing, You're probably use it for desktop publishing. If you want that this get more attention you have to pursue other users to vote for it. For your information I have added the priorities and votes inline. For me it looks like only a minority is interested to get this fixed or they are not aware that they can vote. Sent from my mobile device. On 25 Apr 2014, at 12:10 am, circul...@gmx.com wrote: How long does it take to fix a bug, please? And is there any point in reporting them? Its great that some of them are getting confirmed now, but even that has taken several years in some of the examples below - 4 1/2 years in one. None have been fixed yet. (nb only have public wifi so can't download the latest beta - sorry). There are several serious bugs to report - particularly in outline and template management, while working in metric (which presumably the vast majority of users do) is a nightmare at present. But doing so is time consuming, and there seems little point if nothing is getting fixed, or certainly no urgency if it takes years to do so. EXAMPLE 1: BUG IN OUTLINE - BUG 98752 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=98752 This was first reported 02 February 2009 but was not confirmed. It caused me huge problems in 2011 so was reported independently on the forum (because finding out how to report a bug was so obscure) and confirmed by Hagar Delest on 01 October 2011 here: https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7t=44287p=204470sid=d016d92716a51e5c9d2cf10631ae8b0d#p204470 Did as required. Nothing happened until 07 August 2013 when Rob picked it up, which was a very welcome surprise after so long. This bug has Priority P3 and 2 votes. EXAMPLE 2: ORGANISING TEMPLATES - BUG 118552 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118552 First reported 26 October 2011. Confirmed on 03 April 2014. Still hasn't been fixed. This bug has Priority P3 and 1 votes. EXAMPLE 3: UPDATING STYLES - BUG 121785 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121785 Reported 18 Feb 2013. There is a problem with updating styles, which doesn't behave as stated in help (which covers the topic very badly). On this one, can't get the problem confirmed, and can't even get a response. This bug has Priority P3 and no vote. EXAMPLE 4 : ICON LABELS BUG 121766 https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=121766 This one is embarrassing. Undo is labelled 'Can't Undo and Redo similarly, and have been since 2007 at least, which must be obvious to millions of users. Astonishing that no-one has picked it up. Reported it on 13 February 2013 was confirmed admirably quickly. Naively, it would seem dead simple to fix - just correcting a couple of labels - but it slipped through to OpenOffice 4 and is still there. This bug has Priority P3 and no vote. --- List Conduct Guidelines: http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.apache.org
