[USMA:14628] Re: Precision vs Accuracy
I was away for a while and when I came back I had some 60 messages in my mailbox (our folks here have been busy lately... :-) ). I've decided to read them all first before replying to issues I was involved with, so... Bill, this is it! Gene, you, again (as usual... :-) ), have done so superb a job on this one that this e-mail will go straight to my archives! ;-) Thanks, pal. You have so thoroughly and masterfully addressed this issue here that one could say: 'nuff said! :-) Nonetheless, there will be one last one to address, and my promised response will (finally) be on that one, ok, Bill? Marcus On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:02:27 Gene Mechtly wrote: On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Bill Potts wrote: ... One need go no further than Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary. ... Webster's definitions are insufficient for calculating the precision and determining the accuracy of experimental data. Consider the following: Calculation of *precision* results from the analysis of *random errors* in a set of measurements of the same quantity under circumstances which are held as nearly constant as possible. Standard deviation (root mean square deviation from the mean value) is the usual measures of the precision of the set of observations. Accuracy is a determination or estimate of *systematic errors* (the closeness (lack of deviation) of the mean value of a set of measurements from a reference value established by better quality instruments, better techniques, and usually by better qualified observers or laboratories. Accuracy is ofter only an estimated value because a better reference value is not readily available, or does not exist. A set of measurements can be of good precision but poor accuracy. (e.g. tightly clustered measured values with small standard deviation, but having a mean value widely in error compared with a more correct value) Another set of measurements can be of good accuracy but poor precision. (e.g. widely scattered measured values but having a mean value with little deviation from a more correct value) Try making a scatter graph of twenty hypothetical observed values which illustrate good precision but poor accuracy; and a scatter graph of twenty values which illustrate poor precision but good accuracy. This is an easy exercise for a person who understands the difference between precision and accuracy! Gene. Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/
[USMA:14629] Re: Need Weather Instruments
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:31:15 Jim Elwell wrote: ... Also, in metric countries, what units of measure are typically used for: wind speed Well, Jim... I don't think that there could be a universal, or standard way of presenting such data, because it would largely depend on the situation. For instance, if you're talking about the Olympic games, they're usually reported as m/s. If you're talking about normal weather stuff, it would most likely be reported in km/h. And, unfortunately, if you're dealing with aviation (as in pilot stuff) you'd hear those in (SIC) knots (UGH...). wind direction Unfortunately, it seems it's nearly universally reported in the hideous 360-degree circle crap. But some weather reports prefer the use of double-lettered symbols, like NE, SW and the likes. barometric pressure In Brazil we still stick with mbar (same with aviation). In Canada, it's kPa. temperature Celsius (or centigrades) humidity Usually people mean the relative humidity which is reported in % rainfall This one is easy, mm. ... Hope the above will help, Jim. Marcus Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/
[USMA:14630] Re: Metric Marketing
I'm still puzzled by the comment that, in the US, midnight is 12 AM and noon is 12 PM (which I know to be true), but in "the rest of the world"it's the other way around. Whichcountries refer to midnight as 12 PM instead of 12 AM and noon as 12 AMinstead of12 PM? Stephen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association Sent: July 25, 2001 22:42 Subject: [USMA:14619] Re: Metric Marketing In a message dated 2001-07-25 08:15:35 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you want to get technical... what does p.m. mean? post meridian. And as meridian is noon, 12 post meridian or after noon would be midnight, or 24 hours. On the other hand 12 a.m. (ante meridian) would be 12 hours before noon, or midnight, 0 hours. So I guess that it boils down to whether you want the midnight at the beginning of the day or the midnight at the end of the day. Even the Chicago Manual of Style says to use 12 m. (12 meridian) or 12 noon for noon. If one is forced to stick with the 12-hour clock, then 12 am is midnight and 12 pm is noon. Reason -- 12 00 am is followed by 12 01 am; 12 00 pm is followed by 12 01 pm. Just as is followed by 0001, and 1200 by 1201. In a pure sense, there can't be a 2400 because there is no 2401. In a few cases some people take to mean midnight at the beginning of the day and 2400 to mean midnight at the end of the day. But you have to have a defined point when one day ends and another begins, and the most logical one is 23 59 59 to 00 00 00. Carleton
[USMA:14631] Fwd: Re: Decimal point or decimal comma?
Hey Han Dont lose your spirits. Here we are sending communications to banks and borrowers for euro conversion in 6 languages, English, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and Arabic. As long as Arabs have oil, Russians have space technology, Chinese have economic muscle, their languages has to be respected. Spanish is slowly creeping in USA. The only thing to go to history will be non-SI along with its brother am/pm. Madan __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ Yes, the decimal point might become the global standard because of the world wide use of English. I will not use the point in my own environment unless and until the ISO decides to ditch the decimal comma. There are threats involving English as a global language: Many digital clocks and watches default to am/pm, regardless where they are being sold. Those who do not want this Roman trash have to change the device, sometimes by pushing combinations of buttons. When the battery gives out and you have lost the manual, you are stuck with am/pm if the change involves pressing several little buttons. I had such a watch; changing the default was difficult and I lost the instructions. I have another electronic but not digital watch now, though, without (!) numbers! Ifp could ride in on the back of English. Just see those corrupted websites in metric countries. See also USMA 13972 and 13975 about a French travel and map site (I thought I was safe from I-P in Europe). I am going after that site. That Airbus site was certainly no pleasure to read. (USMA 14080). Also see USMA 13875 (With friends like these..) from Chris about a magazine published by the German energy company RWE and the English language brochure from the French Loire Region for tourists, which indulge in ifp goonery, just to make a good impression on English speaking people. They should get the Inch Perfect Award! Han - Original Message - From: kilopascal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 2001 June 30, 08:59 Subject: [USMA:14110] Re: Decimal point or decimal comma? 2001-06-30 But, isn't (wasn't) the British point not on the line as the American point is now, but at the vertical centre of the number? Something like: 3.14159? I think the hand-held calculator (not the PC) are all made with points, not commas. Even in countries that use commas. This coupled with the wide use of English world-wide might through a process of evolution cause the comma to be displaced by the point.
[USMA:14633] Finally!
On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:46:52 Paul Trusten wrote: ...did Miss Metric New Zealand arrive in the public eye when she was already centerfold-worthy? Did it have something to do with the measurements 91-58-91... ? Actually in metric countries we hear more 90-60-90 instead as standard target measures for misses! On a different note, folks. Those of you who have links to our organization's web site, please update them to our new permanent address at http://www.gosieh.org Thanks, and enjoy the visit! :-) Marcus Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/
[USMA:14634] mail blockage
My ISP is being hard to get through to in order to send mail out. I suspect the SirCam worm has got them swamped with its traffic flooding the net. For that reason and due to a few days trip out of town that we're taking, I may not respond to messages very promptly for awhile. Jim -- Metric Methods(SM) Don't be late to metricate! James R. Frysinger, CAMS http://www.metricmethods.com/ 10 Captiva Row e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charleston, SC 29407 phone/FAX: 843.225.6789
[USMA:14635] fighting for the Sacagawea US dollar coin
I feel that discussing the failure of the Sacagawea dollar coin on this listserv is relevant to our cause, since it represents the unwillingness of Americans to enact an important change, especially if that change that will run counter to their conventional ignorance. Has anybody on this list, in the US, and not in a Wal-Mart or an IHOP (they are, or were, running promotions on this),received one or more Sacagawea dollar coins in change? Since the coin was launched in January of 2000, I have never received this coin in change or from an individual. Believing that the people have been ripped off by expenditure of tax dollars to develop and launch the coin, immediately followed the total failure of this coin to circulate, I wrote to the US Treasury Inspector General's office asking them if they think there is some kind of loss or inequity at the US Mint. They did write back to say that this question is Mint business and forwarded my letter to the Mint (yeah, what the heck good is an Inspector General? He's supposed to INSPECT!). That was in February. On Saturday, not having yet heard squat, or even diddly-squat, I wrote four letters: one snail-mail certified letter, return receipt requested, to Jay Johnson, Director of the Mint, with a copy of my note from the Treasury IG; one letter to my US Representative, Larry Combest, and one letter each to Senator Gramm and Senator Hutchison. I'll share the results, if any, with the list. In the US, The International System of Units is like the Sacagawea dollar coin in the sense that it is the preferred system of measurement for trade and commerce in our country (I would think that this new coin should be the preferred form of a $1 cash transaction since the coin is durable and convenient), an established medium of trade on which we can not yet capitalize due to the tendency of many of the American people to view some changes as foreign even when they are quite domestic. For those reading this list from outside the United States, please go to http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/golden_dollar_coin/index.cfm?action=golden_dollar_specs to view this magnificent coin. The portrait is that of a Shoshone Indian woman named Sacagawea, who served as a Shoshone translator for the US Army explorers Meriweather Lewis and William Clark in their 1803-1806 fact-finding expedition of the territory west of the established states. Paul Trusten, R.Ph. 3609 Caldera Boulevard, Apt. 122 Midland TX 79707-2872 USA (915)-694-6208 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[USMA:14636] Re: Rules of Thumb 6
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:44:15 Bill Potts wrote: Marcus: One need go no further than Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary... Unfortunately, Bill, dictionaries do a very poor job of describing technicalities that only engineers/metrologists/professionals would know about (this is not to say that these definitions are wrong, but simply that they do not tell the whole story). More below. 1.70 EXPRESSES a greater degree of correctness than 1.7 (i.e., does so more precisely). However, if it turns out to be an incorrect reading, relative to the actual mass being measured, its ACTUAL degree of correctness (i.e., accuracy) is low. Your attempt to use such definitions is very commendable, but they're unfortunately missing the target on what I was addressing. You're again insisting on talking about incorrect readings when I don't recall haven't ever even being concerned about that. However, I do remember saying basically that I didn't have much beef or argument with you on this aspect. I think you might want to entertain the possibility that the usage of the terminology, in the University of Alberta's course materials, may be incorrect. ... I honestly don't think so. Perhaps there may have been miscommunication or misunderstanding involved here. Therefore, I feel I should clarify this better. However, please allow me to do so by taking a lift from Gene's superb response on another mail, ok? Marcus Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/
[USMA:14637] Re: Precision vs Accuracy
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:46:18
Bill Potts wrote:
Gene:
That's all very interesting, except that we were not talking about
calculating the precision. Rather, we were talking about the degree of
precision implied by the use of the extra decimal digit.
...
Well, Bill... I'm not sure that my reply was dealing with that aspect actually
('talking about calculating the precision').
Please remember that my comment was aimed at basically two things.
First, that for all intents and purposes, when we talk about accuracy *in practical
terms* we're tackling that by adding decimal places to a measurement (just like Gene
mentioned, the more the measurement's mean reflect the true value, evidently the more
it would be associated with a higher number of decimal places).
To illustrate this it suffices for one to go to the extreme. Imagine we were able
to match *exactly* the measurement with the true value (i.e. perfectly accurate).
Evidently in this case the result would carry all decimal places one could think of
(i.e. infinite... ;-) ).
Now, with precision, the story is quite different (and I wasn't really talking about
that aspect of metrology at all). The illustration I was alluding to is a cartoon
picture showing a big dart board with a *lot* of darts around a tiny spot, but a spot
which was way off the center target! This is *precisely* ( :-) )what Gene was
mentioning, the scatter is very tight.
My second point was, if I'm not mistaken, that when measurements (especially height)
are lower than a meter, it's standard practice in old metric countries to show the
results in cm, as in 85 cm.
So... It seems you took on an unnecessary... 'fight' here, Bill. I guess that in
essence we've both made our points adequately in our own way...
But in essence the common practice that I know of (and that I was alluding to) is to
simply refer to the specific 'decimal place accuracy' for a certain measurement (or
that a value would be accurate to a certain decimal place), already assuming that
precision matters are already being adequately addressed.
(Even though these are randomly distributed, it would be assumed that they would
be... under control or known to be at an acceptable level, so to speak, by the
individual conducting the experiment. Just as an illustration in one of our labs
students are required to demonstrate that by taking several measurements under the
exact same circumstances to verify that aspect, also repeatability. But once
they're happy with them and have confidence in the instrument, they wouldn't
bother continuing with this kind of exercise for every single experiment).
Anyway, I just wanted to share how we use this jargon among engineering and academic
circles.
Marcus
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[USMA:14638] RE: fighting for the Sacagawea US dollar coin
let's not have a whole thread of topics on the Sacagawea coin. please. -Original Message- From: Paul Trusten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:18 AM To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:14635] fighting for the Sacagawea US dollar coin I feel that discussing the failure of the Sacagawea dollar coin on this listserv is relevant to our cause, since it represents the unwillingness of Americans to enact an important change, especially if that change that will run counter to their conventional ignorance.
[USMA:14640] Re: Metric Marketing
I come into this a bit late in the day, but where do you get the idea that 12pm is noon in America and midnight in the rest of the world? Over here in Britain, am and pm is still widely used. 12pm designates midday and 12am designates midnight. The 24-hour clock, as I understand it, goes from 00.00, 00.01, etc, until midday, then it is 12.00, 13.00, through to 23.00 and back to 00.00. I am just intrigued by the belief that it is only the Americans that use am/pm when they are still in widespread use over here, or is there something in your argument I have overlooked? Regards, Steve. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Carter, Baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: [USMA:14596] Re: Metric Marketing In addition, the actually flight planning and flying is done by UTC. Baron Carter. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, 25 July, 2001 05:35 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:14593] Re: Metric Marketing In a message dated 2001-07-25 06:07:44 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Reference the US airline habit of using am/pm time, Airlines can set their computers to issue the ticket in 24 hour format, but due to the ignorance of the reservations agent, most do not. Another interesting aspect of this is that 12 pm is noon in the US and midnight in the rest of the world. Mike Payne Actually the individual reservation agent has no control over how the preferences in the reservation system are set. It's a decision made by the airline as a whole, either globally or by region (I'm sure United's computers in Europe are set to 24 hour, for example). The USA is absolutely alone in the world in sticking with the confusing am/pm displays, as it is alone in so many other things. In Canada I go to the train stations and see the departure times on the display systems all in 24-hour format (the timetables too), and I don't see a whole lot of Canadians missing trains. Same thing at the airports. The airlines, etc. must really think Americans are dumb that they can't understand anything else. Or maybe it's the unfortunate use of the phrase military time. Carleton Carleton
[USMA:14641] Re: Fwd: Re: Decimal point or decimal comma?
On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:22:14 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Joseph B. Reid) wrote: I think it was the typewriter that did in the half-high point as the decimal marker. However, the (British) National Physical Laboratory version of the metric bible has the decimal marker as the dot on the line. The British and American metric standards retain the halt-high dot as the sign of multiplication, as in the symbol for newton metre: N.m The Telegraph papers still insist on using the point in the air, as does (even more annoyingly) the IEE. The German supermarket chain has a local store, and its tills and receipts use the comma decimal. Chris -- UK Metrication Association: http://www.metric.org.uk/
[USMA:14643] Re: Head room signs in Ireland
2001-07-26 By the same token, one must be able to prove one actually knows FFU. If a court debates that the units taught in the schools are only metric and FFU is never taught, then such an argument would not hold grounds legally. Also, if a person is tested on his/her knowledge of FFU and fails the test, this can work against that person's claim that they would not have had the accident if the height or other information was posted in FFU. Suing is one thing, but proving the fault not to be yours is another. John Keiner ist hoffnungsloser versklavt als derjenige, der irrtümlich glaubt frei zu sein. There are none more hopelessly enslaved then those who falsely believe they are free! Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) - Original Message - From: Han Maenen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 2001-07-25 17:59 Subject: [USMA:14623] Head room signs in Ireland In Ireland is a thriving 'compo' culture, where a lot of people love to sue for damages. A lot of ex-soldiers have claimed damages for deafness, supposedly contracted during their time in the Army. Some people working for the ESB (Electricity Supply Board) tried the same 'deafness trick' but they were forced to withdraw their claims and now they will be ordered to pay a lot of legal costs (5 digit figures in IEP). Suppose a head sign is only in meters and somebody crashes into it, suffering damage to his car. He then sues, claiming that the head room was in units he did not understand. He could well win his case. This is probably a reason why there are still so many Imperial only headroom signs there. They should be gone in 2005, however, when all road signs in Ireland are supposed to metricate for good. Then metric road signs will be legal (they are allowed now, but have no legal basis) and suing will be become pointless, I think that the 2005 deadline does not only involve the still remaining Imperial distance signs, but all other road signs too, apart from speed signs (new deadline 2002). Han - Original Message - From: kilopascal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 2001 July 08, 18:20 Subject: [USMA:14199] Re: One step ahead for Canada 2001-07-08 Then what you need to do is get a vehicle that obviously exceeds the height limit and crash into their archway. Then when you are questioned, you can state you didn't understand the dimensions used as they were not what you were taught in school. You are not responsible for any damages since they chose to use non-standard units. you may even want to sue them for damage to your vehicle. A court case may force the issue. Then you can become Canada's Imperial Martyr. John Keiner ist hoffnungsloser versklavt als derjenige, der irrtümlich glaubt frei zu sein. There are none more hopelessly enslaved then those who falsely believe they are free! Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) - Original Message - From: Stephen C. Gallagher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 2001-07-08 10:24 Subject: [USMA:14189] Re: One step ahead for Canada You received better results than I did when I contacted Scotiabank. A newly built branch had an archway over their drive-up ATM, and the sign was displaying the clearance height in feet only. The reply that I received back from the bank's headquarters basically said that there was no law requiring them to display the clearance height in metres, and that they were not going to change the sign, to either add SI, or to remove the ifp measurement. Stephen Gallagher
[USMA:14644] Re: Metric Marketing
2001-07-26 Germany for one does not and has never used the designations AM or PM. Official time is on the 24 h system. However, in colloquial expressions, one uses the terms Morgens, Nachmittags, and Abends. Midnight is Mitternacht and times past Mitternacht until noon (Mittag) are referred to as such-n-such Uhr Morgens. Times from Mittag until about18:00 h (Abendmahl) are referred to as such-n-such Uhr Nachmittags. From 18:00 to Mitternacht time is referred to as such-n-such Uhr Abends. So, the German day is in 3 parts, not 2. But, everything official is on the 24 h clock. Thus, no confusion. When I speak German to someone, I always speak on the 24 h system. I never use the old method, so I'm not really familiar with its structure in full. John Keiner ist hoffnungsloser versklavt als derjenige, der irrtümlich glaubt frei zu sein. There are none more hopelessly enslaved then those who falsely believe they are free! Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) - Original Message - From: Stephen C. Gallagher To: U.S. Metric Association Sent: Thursday, 2001-07-26 07:41 Subject: [USMA:14630] Re: Metric Marketing I'm still puzzled by the comment that, in the US, midnight is 12 AM and noon is 12 PM (which I know to be true), but in "the rest of the world"it's the other way around. Whichcountries refer to midnight as 12 PM instead of 12 AM and noon as 12 AMinstead of12 PM? Stephen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association Sent: July 25, 2001 22:42 Subject: [USMA:14619] Re: Metric Marketing In a message dated 2001-07-25 08:15:35 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you want to get technical... what does p.m. mean? post meridian. And as meridian is noon, 12 post meridian or after noon would be midnight, or 24 hours. On the other hand 12 a.m. (ante meridian) would be 12 hours before noon, or midnight, 0 hours. So I guess that it boils down to whether you want the midnight at the beginning of the day or the midnight at the end of the day. Even the Chicago Manual of Style says to use 12 m. (12 meridian) or 12 noon for noon. If one is forced to stick with the 12-hour clock, then 12 am is midnight and 12 pm is noon. Reason -- 12 00 am is followed by 12 01 am; 12 00 pm is followed by 12 01 pm. Just as is followed by 0001, and 1200 by 1201. In a pure sense, there can't be a 2400 because there is no 2401. In a few cases some people take to mean midnight at the beginning of the day and 2400 to mean midnight at the end of the day. But you have to have a defined point when one day ends and another begins, and the most logical one is 23 59 59 to 00 00 00. Carleton
[USMA:14645] Re: Metric Marketing
I conversation I avoid the problem altogether by referring to 12-noon as simply 12, without the AM or PM, and 12-midnight as simply midnight, without the number 12. Most of the time you say twelve-thirty you're referring to the middle of the business day, and if someone hear's me say midnight-thirty at that hour they're usually not awake enough to notice. Nat PS Speaking of Germany, I have some old Central Europe travel photos at: http://www.win.net/dorsea/nehager/budapest_prague_vienna/budapest_prague_vie nna.html 2001-07-26 Germany for one does not and has never used the designations AM or PM. Official time is on the 24 h system. However, in colloquial expressions, one uses the terms Morgens, Nachmittags, and Abends. Midnight is Mitternacht and times past Mitternacht until noon (Mittag) are referred to as such-n-such Uhr Morgens. Times from Mittag until about 18:00 h (Abendmahl) are referred to as such-n-such Uhr Nachmittags. From 18:00 to Mitternacht time is referred to as such-n-such Uhr Abends. So, the German day is in 3 parts, not 2. But, everything official is on the 24 h clock. Thus, no confusion. When I speak German to someone, I always speak on the 24 h system. I never use the old method, so I'm not really familiar with its structure in full. John Keiner ist hoffnungsloser versklavt als derjenige, der irrtümlich glaubt frei zu sein. There are none more hopelessly enslaved then those who falsely believe they are free! Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) - Original Message - From: Stephen C. Gallagher To: U.S. Metric Association Sent: Thursday, 2001-07-26 07:41 Subject: [USMA:14630] Re: Metric Marketing I'm still puzzled by the comment that, in the US, midnight is 12 AM and noon is 12 PM (which I know to be true), but in the rest of the world it's the other way around. Which countries refer to midnight as 12 PM instead of 12 AM and noon as 12 AM instead of 12 PM? Stephen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association Sent: July 25, 2001 22:42 Subject: [USMA:14619] Re: Metric Marketing In a message dated 2001-07-25 08:15:35 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you want to get technical... what does p.m. mean? post meridian. And as meridian is noon, 12 post meridian or after noon would be midnight, or 24 hours. On the other hand 12 a.m. (ante meridian) would be 12 hours before noon, or midnight, 0 hours. So I guess that it boils down to whether you want the midnight at the beginning of the day or the midnight at the end of the day. Even the Chicago Manual of Style says to use 12 m. (12 meridian) or 12 noon for noon. If one is forced to stick with the 12-hour clock, then 12 am is midnight and 12 pm is noon. Reason -- 12 00 am is followed by 12 01 am; 12 00 pm is followed by 12 01 pm. Just as is followed by 0001, and 1200 by 1201. In a pure sense, there can't be a 2400 because there is no 2401. In a few cases some people take to mean midnight at the beginning of the day and 2400 to mean midnight at the end of the day. But you have to have a defined point when one day ends and another begins, and the most logical one is 23 59 59 to 00 00 00. Carleton
[USMA:14646] Re: poetry of WOMBAT measurement (was SUV item)
Some time ago, Stephen Davis wrote that the international prototype kilogram is: ... a solid cylinder of platinum-iridium alloy maintained at constant temperature at Sèvres near Paris. I don't believe the prototype kilogram is kept at constant temperature. Mass does not depend on temperature, so what would be the point? The earlier prototype for the metre was a platinum-iridium bar on which two marks near ether end were defined to be 1 metre apart. The temperature of that bar DID have to be at a specified temeprature WHEN IT WAS USED FOR MEASURING because the length of the bar would vary with temperature. (However, even here, I don't see why the bar would need to be kept at a constant temperature when it was merely being stored and not at that moment being use to measure anything.) The prototype metre was later replace by other better standards, most recently by the distance light travels in vacuum in a specified fraction of a second. Regards, Bill Hooper Keep It Simple! Make It Metric!
[USMA:14647] Re: fighting for the Sacagawea US dollar coin
In a message dated 2001-07-26 12:14:16 Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I feel that discussing the failure of the Sacagawea dollar coin on this listserv is relevant to our cause, since it represents the unwillingness of Americans to enact an important change, especially if that change that will run counter to their conventional ignorance. Has anybody on this list, in the US, and not in a Wal-Mart or an IHOP (they are, or were, running promotions on this),received one or more Sacagawea dollar coins in change? Since the coin was launched in January of 2000, I have never received this coin in change or from an individual. This is a valid thread to explore a little bit, because the same intransigent American attitude that keeps the government from doing the one thing that would make this coin a success -- GETTING RID OF THE $1 BILL -- is also the attitude that stops metrication, stops the 24-hour clock, stops universal health care, on and on and on. The coin is getting some use. In Philadelphia, SEPTA has bill changers ($1/5/10/20) in the subway and train stations. The dollar coins are then used to buy tokens and tickets from vending machines, that don't have the expensive bill readers. You often get a mix of Susan B. and Sacagawea coins. But there is some hope -- the $1 bill is the only one that has NOT been redesigned. If it ever is, all hope for the coin is gone. Somewhere I heard that the government is replacing $1 bills with an equal number of $1 bills, but increasing the needed number of $1 'items' with coins only. True, anyone? Has anyone seen a 2001 dollar coin yet? Carleton
[USMA:14649] RE: Imperial Knowledge.
If Hassler had adopted the Imperial system the USA would now be using the Imperial gallon, pint, gill; the long ton, the long hundredweight, the quarter and the British stone and other British units unfamiliar to Americans now. Hassler and Bache just streamlined and improved the old-English, colonial, pre-Imperial units brought to the USA by British settlers before 1824. As far as I known, before 1893 the US had its own yard and pound standard and never used an authentic British Imperial Standard Yard and Pound. Han - Original Message - From: Carter, Baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U.S. Metric Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 2001 July 10, 15:32 Subject: [USMA:14280] RE: Imperial Knowledge. Bill, the U.S. has never used Imperial? I thought Hassler in the 1830's adopted the Imperial system over the metric system. Baron -Original Message- From: Bill Potts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, 09 July, 2001 17:50 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:14265] RE: Imperial Knowledge. Oh, it's perfectly reliable, Steve -- just nonsensical. The U.S. gallon (128 U.S. fluid ounces) has always been different from the Imperial Gallon (160 Imperial fluid ounces). Not surprisingly, many Canadians were confused by U.S. gas mileage claims (thinking U.S. cars were even less economical than was actually the case). Since Canada switched to liters for gasoline, I suspect they have simply ignored the claims in U.S. car ads, as the liter is very clearly nothing like a U.S. gallon. Just a correction, though; the U.S. has never used Imperial. What it has used and persists in using is officially known as U.S. Customary. You may have seen a couple of the alternative names we often use on this list server -- WOMBAT (Way of Measuring Badly in America Today, or Waste of Money, Brains and Time) and FFU (Fred Flintstone Units). Bill Potts, CMS Roseville, CA http://metric1.org [SI Navigator] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Stephen Davis Sent: July 09, 2001 14:36 To: U.S. Metric Association Subject: [USMA:14257] Imperial Knowledge. America seems to be one of the last bastions of the imperial system, yet I would ask this. How many Americans actually know how many ounces there are in a pound, or how many pints there are in each gallon? The imperial system is deemed so good by it's supporters, yet I understand the US gallon is different to the British gallon, so it's not a very reliable measurement, is it? Regards, Steve. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
