[VIHUELA] Re: Doizi de Velasco
Thank you for the explanation. There are still a few questions: Monica Hall wrote: > Whichever way it is strung, some chords will have fourths between the lowest > voices [i.e. will be six-four chords]. These can be made good when playing > rasgado. > > In other words, whether the guitar is strung with bourdons or without them, > some of the basic sequence of chords will be 6-4s. This will be the case > with a re-entrant tuning as well as with bourdons, although different chords > will be in different inversions. All of these, whichever method of > stringing you chose, will be made good when played rasgado. He is not > referring only to chords which will be 6-4s with octave stringing. Leaving > out the 5th course will not make 6-4 chords good with a re-entrant tuning > because this will never be the lowest note. > In re-entrant tuning Doizi's whole instruction is worthless. Almost all chords that he meticulously has re fingered become in different inversions. He was clearly thinking of the tuning with bordons when he wrote it. Secondly, even in re-entrant tuning, at least part of the chords could have been fingered (made good) in such a way that the notes are related to the bass (not lower than the open third course, unfortunately) in a 'correct' way, i.e. a figure '6' meant there is a sixth in the chord in relation to the lowest note, the bass. Plucked or strummed. > It is the actual process of strumming the chords which makes them good in > both cases because - yes - the arrangement of the notes within the chord is > (for many people) less easy to pick out when they are played like this. People should learn how to strum > If > these basic 5-part chords are played punteado, using the thumb for the > lowest two notes and 1st, 2nd & 3rd fingers for the remaining notes - as > lutenists might do - the inversions will be much more apparent. Only in 5 part chords the thumb has to serve two courses. When the chords are 'made good' punteado, we can leave out the interval between the lowest 2 courses. Now we have a maximum of 4 courses to play. > And of > course if they were played on a keyboard instrument they would indeed sound > awful. I had a several talks for mixed audiences of Early Music players about guitar continuo. Every time some were complaining about the 6-4 inversions, caused by the low A string, in strummed chords, for which I had not warned them. People really can hear those things. > If you go through the rest of it (a labour of love) you will occasionally > find examples where standard chords in root position have amended to reflect > the correct inversions - for example on p.55, the fourth chord which is a > minor 6th & minor 3rd on E. He has indicated that the 5th course is to be > omitted from what would otherwise be chord B in alfabeto. But off course. Otherwise it would not be 'con 6 me[nor] y 3 me[nor] but a C major chord in root (instead of in 3/6). That is what it is supposed to be. Essentially this is no different from what other guitarists like Foscarini or Corbetta say in their basso continuo instructions. Figures are not included for nothing. > What I am trying to say is that he hasn't singled out 6-4 chords for special > treatment. All the chords are to be correctly voiced from the bass note. Indeed. What is important to note, is that all his chords are built up from the bass, but the order of the notes can vary. That is the same with the 6/4 chords of course. I never said he made an exception for those, but he did mention them explicitly in his text. All this is just more evidence for the supposition that for Doizi the bass did matter; it was the only way to hear the inversion of the chord, be it 3/6, 4/6 or any of the other forms he describes, also when played rasgado. > Although I don't think he has specifically said so, really he is working on > the assumption that the accompaniment won't be strummed. The only 5-part > chords included in the tables, which will be strummed, are the root position > tonic chords for each key. Not entirely true. Have a look at the 6th ex. on p.41 which is a 6 chord on a. There are a lot more actually that include 5 courses and are not in root position. On p. 18 he speaks of the style of performance: 'taniendo una vez de rasgado, y otra punteando las cuerdas, que convenieren a algunas consonancias la halleran perfecta, abundante, bisarra, y airosissima.' > The real problem begins when you try to apply all this to an actual bass > line! Yes, that wouldn't be easy. Almost impossible would it be to take care of all the voicings. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Doizi de Velasco
> Oh no. I just gave the example of the D major chord with an x on the 5th > course. Can be made good any way you wish. Punteado or rasgado. (You > mentioned rasgado, by the way) > Why can't they be made good punteado? What are the obvious reasons? What Doizi says is it seems to me better to string it with bourdons on the fourth and fifth courses, rather than without them, because then it is more sonorous and similar in range to that of natural voices. Whichever way it is strung, some chords will have fourths between the lowest voices [i.e. will be six-four chords]. These can be made good when playing rasgado. In other words, whether the guitar is strung with bourdons or without them, some of the basic sequence of chords will be 6-4s. This will be the case with a re-entrant tuning as well as with bourdons, although different chords will be in different inversions. All of these, whichever method of stringing you chose, will be made good when played rasgado. He is not referring only to chords which will be 6-4s with octave stringing. Leaving out the 5th course will not make 6-4 chords good with a re-entrant tuning because this will never be the lowest note. It is the actual process of strumming the chords which makes them good in both cases because - yes - the arrangement of the notes within the chord is (for many people) less easy to pick out when they are played like this. If these basic 5-part chords are played punteado, using the thumb for the lowest two notes and 1st, 2nd & 3rd fingers for the remaining notes - as lutenists might do - the inversions will be much more apparent. And of course if they were played on a keyboard instrument they would indeed sound awful. Do > you mean that they are made good because one is supposed not to hear what is > the lowest note (the bass that Doizi is referring to all the time) when the > chord is strummed? Yes - that I think that is what Doizi is saying. > > As far as the tables of chords at the end are concerned he suggests that > it > > is better to re-voice all the standard chords so that they match the > > inversion implied by the bass note, whether they are 6/3 or 6/4 > > > > > but he > > doesn't rule out the possibility of using them unalterd. > > No. But for instance the D major chord with the x on the 5th course is > 'mejor'. In the tables - on each degree of the scale he first gives the standard (alfabeto) chord. However since the first chord is supposed to be with a 5th and a major 3rd from the bass, i.e. a root position chord - he says that it is better to re-finger them if necessary so that they are actually in root position. This applies equally to chords which will be 6-3 or 6-4s. If you start with the chords on G on p.37 you can see that for the first chord which is supposed to be G major in root position he has said you can use the standard alfabeto chord A - which is a 1st inversion chord although he thinks it is better to completely re-finger the chord so that it is actually in root position. Similarly with the G minor chord. If you go through the rest of it (a labour of love) you will occasionally find examples where standard chords in root position have amended to reflect the correct inversions - for example on p.55, the fourth chord which is a minor 6th & minor 3rd on E. He has indicated that the 5th course is to be omitted from what would otherwise be chord B in alfabeto. What I am trying to say is that he hasn't singled out 6-4 chords for special treatment. All the chords are to be correctly voiced from the bass note. Although I don't think he has specifically said so, really he is working on the assumption that the accompaniment won't be strummed. The only 5-part chords included in the tables, which will be strummed, are the root position tonic chords for each key. All the rest are in 3 or 4 parts, and not all of these can be strummed anyway as the notes are not adjacent strings - as you say. The real problem begins when you try to apply all this to an actual bass line! > > The primary purpose of Doizi's treatise (which you seem to have > overlooked) > > !?... My sincere apologies if I have misrepresented or misunderstood what you are saying. > > If you examine the additional symbols for altered chords in Foscarini you > > will see that nearly all of them are designed to allow the dissonant > fourth > > to be introduced at a cadence. > > and 7-6. Indeed. > Some people even seem to think that all courses are to be included in all > those chords. Not me! I took this away on holiday with me and carefully worked them all out. It does require some knowledge of harmony to sort them out! As you say some of them are 7th chords rather than 4-3s. Once you have actually identified the chord structure the only bone of contention is whether to include the open 5th course in chord C+ for example.. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu
[VIHUELA] groupies
do lute/vihuella/baroque guitar ... early music players in general, have 'em? look forward to fielding your replies - off-list if you'd prefer - when i return in two week's time. arrivederci - bill "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
