[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Monica, In response to my scepticism that these books/Ms were primarily aimed at professional guitar players you write 'In any case the books are intended primarily for theorbo and keyboard players.' - but what is your evidence for this? As said earlier, it's more likely that publishers saw commercial opportunities amongst non-professional guitar players as an opportunity to make money. I also wrote: 'Similarly, manuscript collections were frequently for transmission of dances/songs to pupils. Incidentally amatuers in this contemporary sense does not equate to unaccomplished singers - the affluent classes had the time as well as money to devote time to the 'arts' and deveoped some proficiency. In any event these songs are not Rossini coloratura arias'. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 17:28 Dear Monica, You write: 'I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not intended for amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert lieder). This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for accomplished singers - of whom there would have been a large number in Italy where every church and cathedral had a body of professional singers.' I beg to differ - what is your evidence for such a statement? Surely the very act of publishing printed books is to sell to the wider market than the few guitar 'professionals' versed in composition so as to make money. I am not saying that they were intended for just a few guitar professionals. In any case the books are intended primarily for theorbo and keyboard players. There must have been thousands of professional singers in Italy at the time - there were dozens of churches in Rome alone with professional choirs and the singers did just sing in church - they earned theirr living in various ways - as they do today. The copies of each book printed would have been in the region of 1000. How do you know that the manuscripts belonged to amateurs. Monica Similarly manuscript collections were frequently for transmission of dances/songs to pupils. Incidentally amatuers in this contemporary sense does not equate to unaccomplished singers - the affluent classes had the time as well as money to devote time to the 'arts' and deveoped some proficiency. In any event these songs are not Rossini coloratura arias . Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Lex Eisenhardt [3]eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 12:41 Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known melodies. Obviously you haven't seen them. (They are not the same songs included in the 1620 edition). They are songs which were currently in the repertoire at the time - Rontani's Caldi sospiri to name but one. This had apppeared with basso continuo in a song book printed in Florence in 1614 without alfabeto and was reprinted in Rome with alfabeto in 1623. The songs of Marini, Berti and so many others were new compositions, provided with the harmony of a basso continuo. The alfabeto could well have been inscribed by the composer himself, as we assume of Biagio Marini, for example. I am sure that it was and if you read what Marini has said and study how he has added the alfabeto to the songs you can see that he had in mind something quite different from what you seem to think [could we please have this discussion in Dutch ?:~) ] Double Dutch perhaps. What you are saying sounds like pedantry to me. what was going on in Surely they are one and the same? No they are not. I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not intended for amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert lieder). This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for accomplished singers - of whom there would have been a large number in Italy where every church and cathedral had a body of professional singers. We cannot tell how someone like Foscarini, of whom we have no songs, would have shaped his accompaniment to a song by Marini or Landi. But we
[VIHUELA] strumming inversions
Inversions were used in practice well before the 'Middle Baroque' but that is not the principal point: the res is that these guitar chords don't really sound as inversions when strummed - more as 'platonic' chords (see earlier emails). But having absorbed the most recent emails what we now seem to have ended up with is, I think, a (sort of) general agreement that for the period under consideration (first half of 17th century and before intabulation became more general): - usually alfabeto chords were strummed accross the whole 5 courses even if 'inversions' occur and even if the lowest courses had bourdons; but that - some discriminatory play (partial strumming) may have been employed by more accomplished (professional?) players to vary the texture and tessitura. M --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 14:32 My understanding was that inversions were against the rules until the Middle Baroque. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela List [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stewart McCoy [3]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:21 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Dear Stewart, You write: 'My guess, (and it would be lovely if you could confirm it to be right), is that the bourdons were removed for the sake of strumming. Second inversions were not such a problem per se, especially if there was another instrument supplying the true bass, but a second inversion involving a wrong note sounding below the bass, or one which was particularly low in pitch, was not satisfactory.' As you'll have seen from my previous postings I really do not consider these inversions problematical (neither I think does Monica but she can, and will, speak for herself) and indeed even the earlier generation of 4 course guitarists generally didn't either. As pointed out recently and many other times over the past year or so during this discussion thread (how time flies) these guitar alfabeto chords are a sort of platonic form of a particular harmony. Just as Plato invents the concept of a form of a chair (his example) but without relating it to any particular chair to explain how we identify such an object, so the chord produced by guitar strumming is a harmony. Such is even the practice today - for example in popular music I really don't think most guitar strummers are over bothered about the fine progression of the bass line. This is particularly the case if the treble of the bass pair is placed so as to be struck first by the thumb/downwards strum so that there is a further imprecision in the auditor's ear as to the precise pitch of the lowest notes in the chord. Indeed, I can well imagine an entirely different scenario to you whereby the re-entrant nature of octave basses became an attraction in itself by allowing various idiomatic styles (such as campanellas) to be developed without drastically changing the platonic chord ability. I'm afraid a further problem with suggesting that the avoidance of bourdons on the 4th and 5th avoids inversions is that it doesn't. Play almost any common chord other than G, A and maybe B and Bb and you have an inversion with the third course as the lowest. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Stewart McCoy [4]lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Stewart McCoy [5]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence To: Vihuela List [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 13:16 Dear Monica, Many thanks for your reply to my email about strumming. We agree that a good guitarist wouldn't always feel obliged to strum every available string of a chord all the time. We also agree that guitarists had long been happy with the wrong inversion of a chord - in particular, second inversions. Where we differ, I think, is whether someone strumming a guitar with bourdons may have chosen to avoid some of the lower notes of a chord, where they would otherwise interfere with a bass line, like the bass notes played on a spinet for that song by Stefano Landi. To this I would ask, why is that guitarists in the 17th century chose to string their guitars without bourdons? By doing that, they drastically
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Thanks Stewart. I am off to the Lute Society shortly - to hear Nigel North.
Balm for troubled souls.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:01 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Monica,
I agree that it is probably best to move on now, but please don't think
the thread has not been worthwhile. I have learned a lot about the
baroque guitar and its music, in particular about Landi's songs, and I
value what you, Lex, Martyn and others have had to say on the subject.
In a couple of minutes I'll be off to The Plough for a couple of pints.
Pity the three of you can't join me there.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 19 November 2010 19:35
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
I can't summarize it in a single sentence but I hope I can explain
briefly.
I think the reason for including alfabeto in these song books is
because
they were
not intended to be
accompanied in the same way as they would be on the theorbo or keyboard.
There is no point in doing something which other instruments could do
better. And if performers could or wanted to do so they would use the
bass
line provided.
A different style of accompaniment is intended - one which is entirely
strummed which can in its way be very effective. Later perhaps taste
changed leading to a mixed or more varied style of accompaniment but I
don't think that strumming ever went out of fashion.
I responded cautiously to Lex's original message about the Landi songs
because it was an interesting subject and I thought I might be able to
shed
some light on the problem. I am grateful to him to drawing my
attention to
the facsimile as I was familiar with some of the songs but had not
previously seen the orignal score.
However we have discussed all the rest of this previously and what
happens
is that we end up going round and round in circles. We obviously have
very
different ideas on the subject. The only reason for my continuing to
take
part in it is because I don't think that only one point of view should
be
put forward. But my time is limited.
I think that it is a pity that we cannot find anything more worthwhile
to
discuss than the stringing of the 5-course guitar which is where it
always
ends up.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:51 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Lex,
Well, it just goes to show how such a protracted exchange can become
as
Chinese whispers. I had gained the impression that this (ie
principally avoidance of inversions in alfabeto) was the issue -
including of course non-BC bourdon use with which it is
inextricably
entwined. I can therefore see little practical difference between
any
of these vigorously defended positions. If there is any significant
difference after all that has been said, would you and Monica kindly
(in a sentence) summarise the res as they see it.
Martyn
--- On Fri, 19/11/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:49
Dear Martyn,
you wrote:
However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as
I
think Lex
does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures
are
often
aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to
avoid
inversions by selective strumming.
What makes you think that I believe that??
I have no idea what was done routinely ('even [by] the
amateurs'),
and
do not pretend to know what was (perhaps) always done. Nor what
was
_
never_ done, for that matter.
best wishes, Lex
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Martyn I will reply to your messages late - off the list if you have no objection. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 9:21 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Dear Monica, In response to my scepticism that these books/Ms were primarily aimed at professional guitar players you write 'In any case the books are intended primarily for theorbo and keyboard players.' - but what is your evidence for this? As said earlier, it's more likely that publishers saw commercial opportunities amongst non-professional guitar players as an opportunity to make money. I also wrote: 'Similarly, manuscript collections were frequently for transmission of dances/songs to pupils. Incidentally amatuers in this contemporary sense does not equate to unaccomplished singers - the affluent classes had the time as well as money to devote time to the 'arts' and deveoped some proficiency. In any event these songs are not Rossini coloratura arias'. rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 17:28 Dear Monica, You write: 'I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not intended for amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert lieder). This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for accomplished singers - of whom there would have been a large number in Italy where every church and cathedral had a body of professional singers.' I beg to differ - what is your evidence for such a statement? Surely the very act of publishing printed books is to sell to the wider market than the few guitar 'professionals' versed in composition so as to make money. I am not saying that they were intended for just a few guitar professionals. In any case the books are intended primarily for theorbo and keyboard players. There must have been thousands of professional singers in Italy at the time - there were dozens of churches in Rome alone with professional choirs and the singers did just sing in church - they earned theirr living in various ways - as they do today. The copies of each book printed would have been in the region of 1000. How do you know that the manuscripts belonged to amateurs. Monica Similarly manuscript collections were frequently for transmission of dances/songs to pupils. Incidentally amatuers in this contemporary sense does not equate to unaccomplished singers - the affluent classes had the time as well as money to devote time to the 'arts' and deveoped some proficiency. In any event these songs are not Rossini coloratura arias . Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Lex Eisenhardt [3]eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 12:41 Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known melodies. Obviously you haven't seen them. (They are not the same songs included in the 1620 edition). They are songs which were currently in the repertoire at the time - Rontani's Caldi sospiri to name but one. This had apppeared with basso continuo in a song book printed in Florence in 1614 without alfabeto and was reprinted in Rome with alfabeto in 1623. The songs of Marini, Berti and so many others were new compositions, provided with the harmony of a basso continuo. The alfabeto could well have been inscribed by the composer himself, as we assume of Biagio Marini, for example. I am sure that it was and if you read what Marini has said and study how he has added the alfabeto to the songs you can see that he had in mind something quite different from what you seem to think [could we please have this discussion in Dutch ?:~) ] Double Dutch perhaps. What you are saying sounds like pedantry to me. what was going on in Surely they are one and the same? No they are not. I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not intended for amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert lieder). This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for accomplished singers - of whom there would have been a large number in Italy where every
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Martyn In the end I decided that I would reply to the list as there are a few things which I think are worth mentioning. In response to my scepticism that these books/Ms were primarily aimed at professional guitar players you write 'In any case the books are intended primarily for theorbo and keyboard players.' - but what is your evidence for this? Many of the books include some songs with alfabeto but by no means all of them have alfabeto. Landi's first book includes 20 songs, but only 6 have alfabeto. There is sometimes a distinction between those which were thought suitable for guitar accompaniment (and therefore perhaps intended to be accompanied in a different way) and those that weren't. (This is the basis of Cory Gavito's dissertation if I remember rightly). But quite a few songbooks were published which included no songs with alfabeto. And others were published originally without alfabeto and later with it - like Rontani's. The alfabeto is included because the guitar was considered to be a suitable option - even if the alfabeto is not much help. It is not something that you can generalise about. What I really meant to say is that the songs themselves were not composed for amateur singers. Some are quite virtuosic. People like Landi would have sung them themselves or performed them with colleagues. Some of the Landi songs have a compas of an octave + 5th or 6th. Canta la cicaletta is a good example - very difficult to sing well. But some amateurs may have sung them. As said earlier, it's more likely that publishers saw commercial opportunities amongst non-professional guitar players as an opportunity to make money. I think it is very difficult to say who the books were intended for. Received wisdom is that the printer added the alfabeto to sell more copies. But to whom? Would an amateur guitarist want to buy a book of 20 songs with guitar accompaniment for only 6 of them? Different printers may have had different markets in mind. I also wrote: 'Similarly, manuscript collections were frequently for transmission of dances/songs to pupils. But these also include some songs with alfabeto and some without. The other reason for sending this to the list is because I am not sure that in the Landi the clefs are transposing clefs. It may have more to do with minimising the use of ledger lines. But there is still a lot about it which puzzles me. Monica mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 17:28 Dear Monica, You write: 'I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not intended for amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert lieder). This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for accomplished singers - of whom there would have been a large number in Italy where every church and cathedral had a body of professional singers.' I beg to differ - what is your evidence for such a statement? Surely the very act of publishing printed books is to sell to the wider market than the few guitar 'professionals' versed in composition so as to make money. I am not saying that they were intended for just a few guitar professionals. In any case the books are intended primarily for theorbo and keyboard players. There must have been thousands of professional singers in Italy at the time - there were dozens of churches in Rome alone with professional choirs and the singers did just sing in church - they earned theirr living in various ways - as they do today. The copies of each book printed would have been in the region of 1000. How do you know that the manuscripts belonged to amateurs. Monica Similarly manuscript collections were frequently for transmission of dances/songs to pupils. Incidentally amatuers in this contemporary sense does not equate to unaccomplished singers - the affluent classes had the time as well as money to devote time to the 'arts' and deveoped some proficiency. In any event these songs are not Rossini coloratura arias . Martyn --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Lex Eisenhardt [3]eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 12:41 Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known melodies. Obviously you haven't seen them. (They are not the same songs included in the 1620 edition). They are songs which were currently in the repertoire at the
[VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics
Hello early guitarists, I just received a query: “Do you know the earliest publications for lute and/or guitar in which harmonics were used?” Any thoughts? Thanks, Jocelyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics
On 20/11/2010 22:07, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hello early guitarists, I just received a query: “Do you know the earliest publications for lute and/or guitar in which harmonics were used?” Any thoughts? Thanks, Jocelyn According to Oleg Timofeyev: [Semion Aksionov] apparently invented the special effect in guitar playing known today as artificial harmonics which is explained in a guitar method in 1819. But natural harmonics must have predated this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carré some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics
Thanks very much, Stuart and Roman. Jocelyn From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky [r.turov...@verizon.net] Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:25 PM To: Nelson, Jocelyn; Stuart Walsh Cc: Monica Hall; Martyn Hodgson; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics By not much, as you cannot do them on double strings. RT From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com On 20/11/2010 22:07, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hello early guitarists, I just received a query: “Do you know the earliest publications for lute and/or guitar in which harmonics were used?” Any thoughts? Thanks, Jocelyn According to Oleg Timofeyev: [Semion Aksionov] apparently invented the special effect in guitar playing known today as artificial harmonics which is explained in a guitar method in 1819. But natural harmonics must have predated this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Monica, Thanks for this. You wrote: 'What I really meant to say is that the songs themselves were not composed for amateur singers. Some are quite virtuosic. ' I'm not convinced that 'amateur' singers of the period were so untutored as you think. This this may be a false analogy with present day perceptions where an apparently unbridgeable gulf is apparent between those singing the principal roles in, say, Rossini, Verdi, Wagner, Strass et al and those singing 'folk' songs at their local boozer. The songs you mention are not really that 'difficult' and I continue to believe they were well within the accomplishment of many non-professional singers who, coming from the moneyed classes, could afford leisure activities (Bourgeoisie we might call them later) and were able to develop a decent contemporary technique - tutored with the help of these books/ms and professional musicians. rgds M. --- On Sat, 20/11/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 21:18 Dear Martyn In the end I decided that I would reply to the list as there are a few things which I think are worth mentioning. In response to my scepticism that these books/Ms were primarily aimed at professional guitar players you write 'In any case the books are intended primarily for theorbo and keyboard players.' - but what is your evidence for this? Many of the books include some songs with alfabeto but by no means all of them have alfabeto. Landi's first book includes 20 songs, but only 6 have alfabeto. There is sometimes a distinction between those which were thought suitable for guitar accompaniment (and therefore perhaps intended to be accompanied in a different way) and those that weren't. (This is the basis of Cory Gavito's dissertation if I remember rightly). But quite a few songbooks were published which included no songs with alfabeto. And others were published originally without alfabeto and later with it - like Rontani's. The alfabeto is included because the guitar was considered to be a suitable option - even if the alfabeto is not much help. It is not something that you can generalise about. What I really meant to say is that the songs themselves were not composed for amateur singers. Some are quite virtuosic. People like Landi would have sung them themselves or performed them with colleagues. Some of the Landi songs have a compas of an octave + 5th or 6th. Canta la cicaletta is a good example - very difficult to sing well. But some amateurs may have sung them. As said earlier, it's more likely that publishers saw commercial opportunities amongst non-professional guitar players as an opportunity to make money. I think it is very difficult to say who the books were intended for. Received wisdom is that the printer added the alfabeto to sell more copies. But to whom? Would an amateur guitarist want to buy a book of 20 songs with guitar accompaniment for only 6 of them? Different printers may have had different markets in mind. I also wrote: 'Similarly, manuscript collections were frequently for transmission of dances/songs to pupils. But these also include some songs with alfabeto and some without. The other reason for sending this to the list is because I am not sure that in the Landi the clefs are transposing clefs. It may have more to do with minimising the use of ledger lines. But there is still a lot about it which puzzles me. Monica [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 17:28 Dear Monica, You write: 'I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not intended for amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert lieder). This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for accomplished singers - of whom there would have been a large number in Italy where every church and cathedral had a body of professional singers.' I beg to differ - what is your evidence for such a statement? Surely the very act of publishing printed books is to sell to the wider market than the few guitar 'professionals' versed in composition so as to make money. I am not saying that they were intended for just a
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
--- On Sat, 20/11/10, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 22:29 Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
