[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Who says I tune my guitar(s) at A440? I used this pitch in my analysis simply as a convenient reference point. But I don't think anybody would argue that a major third below A440 is an ideal historical pitch for guitars. MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:50 Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __ De : Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot [3]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot [5]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot [6]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos [8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __ De : Martyn Hodgson [10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos [11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist [12]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Strad (or his sons?) did indeed leave notes which indicate the position of the octave and bourdon as you describe. And other evidence. But to your central question - it's very much chicken and egg: - did the octave on the basses (used like on the lute to brighten a muddy bass) give birth later to the idea of using them in campanella play; or - was campanella play around before the basses had a low octave and later a little more depth to the bass register was thought desirable? I firmly stand in the first camp since I see little evidence of campanellas in the slightly early 4 course guitar/gittern repertory and the earliest 5 course music is simply strummed chords. MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: vihuela list vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 22:47 On 23/11/2010 22:08, Alexander Batov wrote: I quite agree with Martyn that the use of an octave on the third course is a bit of an overkill with all-gut stringing, whatever SL is there. And lets not forget that the main purpose of octave stringing in olden times was to enhance the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings But - as usual - the Baroque guitar seems to be different from other plucked instruments of the time in that the low string and the octave above it are positioned in reverse from the norm. On lutes (etc) , on the lower courses with octaves, the thumb hits the low note first (presumably with gut, a bit of dull sound) and then the octave above which gives the overall bass sound more focus. But - probably universally today - Baroque guitarists set up guitars so that when the thumb hits the low course(s) the high octave sounds first and then the thumb hits the bass. I think the actual evidence from the time is minute - something in Stradivarius and ? at most a couple of other things? (Plus something much later? Merchi? - when the bass notes are unambiguously bass notes anyway) Of course, every one is setting up their guitars in this way to get campanellas and to try and make more sense of the music. But that's quite different from merely enhancing the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings. Stuart , which would be hardly necessary on under 1.0 mm thick third course. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
I only says that a minor third below 440 is the tuning indicated by Carbonchi (GCFAD), at a pitch of a=415. On instruments with a diapason of 69 cm (as Sellas...), it equals my stringing which is a tone higher (ADGHE) with a 63 cm SL.There is no impossibilty to use a g octave,(or f octave on a greater instrument), it works quite well on mine. But I also quite understand Monica's general point of view: perhaps it sounds good for my today's ears, but what about 1650 ears? And allways no real evidence of the use of g octave in the texts, as she already pointed out. __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mer 24 novembre 2010, 10h 04min 05s Objet : Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Who says I tune my guitar(s) at A440? I used this pitch in my analysis simply as a convenient reference point. But I don't think anybody would argue that a major third below A440 is an ideal historical pitch for guitars. MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:50 Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __ De : Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot [3]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot [5]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot [6]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos [8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
I think the actual evidence from the time is minute - something in Stradivarius and ? at most a couple of other things? (Plus something much later? Merchi? - when the bass notes are unambiguously bass notes anyway). Rather surprisingly the one 17th century mention of this practice is in Ruiz de Ribayaz's Luz y norte musical. It is also illustrated in the article by Rousseau in Diderot's encyclopedia. But I think it may have been common on the cittern as well. The instrument in Saldivar Codex 2 has the low octave string on the third course placed between the two treble strings. On the guitar it is not just a question of campanellas. The 5th course is used quite a lot as a treble string in the part writing and whether or not bourdons are used I think it is necessary to have it on the thumb side of the course. Monica Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Thanks for clarifying that! I understand what you mean now. Monica - Original Message - From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? I only says that a minor third below 440 is the tuning indicated by Carbonchi (GCFAD), at a pitch of a=415. On instruments with a diapason of 69 cm (as Sellas...), it equals my stringing which is a tone higher (ADGHE) with a 63 cm SL.There is no impossibilty to use a g octave,(or f octave on a greater instrument), it works quite well on mine. But I also quite understand Monica's general point of view: perhaps it sounds good for my today's ears, but what about 1650 ears? And allways no real evidence of the use of g octave in the texts, as she already pointed out. __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mer 24 novembre 2010, 10h 04min 05s Objet : Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Who says I tune my guitar(s) at A440? I used this pitch in my analysis simply as a convenient reference point. But I don't think anybody would argue that a major third below A440 is an ideal historical pitch for guitars. MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:50 Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __ De : Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot [3]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot [5]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot [6]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos [8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 24/11/2010 12:54, Monica Hall wrote: Rather surprisingly the one 17th century mention of this practice [having the low note on the thumb side] is in Ruiz de Ribayaz's Luz y norte musical. It's astonishing really. Hundreds of guitar publications and MSS in the seventeenth century and just one mention of it. and yet everyone today uses this method of stringing with bourdons. The actual evidence is so slight. It is also illustrated in the article by Rousseau in Diderot's encyclopedia. So that would be after 1750 anyway and a quite different world. So is that all: Stradivarius in some notes (early 18th C?), Ribayez, 17th C and Rousseau, late 18th century? But I think it may have been common on the cittern as well. The instrument in Saldivar Codex 2 has the low octave string on the third course placed between the two treble strings. The cittern is a very different instrument and a fairly minor instrument at this time. There is no comparable repertoire to the guitar. In fact, not much of a repertoire at all. Stuart On the guitar it is not just a question of campanellas. The 5th course is used quite a lot as a treble string in the part writing and whether or not bourdons are used I think it is necessary to have it on the thumb side of the course. Monica Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Aranies
It is actual Nina Treadwell who mentions Aranies on p. 44 of her dissertation The chitarra spagnola and Italian monody. The point is that it is the voice parts which have to be transposed not that guitar must be pitched a 4th higher. She seems to have got the information from an article by Richard Jensen published in Early Music in 1985 before most people really understood about transposing clefs.. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
It's astonishing really. Hundreds of guitar publications and MSS in the seventeenth century and just one mention of it. and yet everyone today uses this method of stringing with bourdons. The actual evidence is so slight. One possible reason why it is seldom mentioned is because the commonest methods of stringing were the re-entrant tuning where there is no need to reverse the strings, and that with a bourdon on the 4th course only where it doesn't make much difference. It is also illustrated in the article by Rousseau in Diderot's encyclopedia. So that would be after 1750 anyway and a quite different world. That is the point. There isn't really any need to reverse the strings for the later repertoire which suggests that it was something left over from the past. But Corrette does mention the practice of leaving out the low octave string and has a specific way of notating it. This may be because a bourdon on the 5th course was by this time standard - hence the need to leave it out. There is not much point in doing what he says in the places where he indicates it as you can just as well play the notes on the appropriate upper course although it is slightly easier to do it in the way he suggests. So is that all: Stradivarius in some notes (early 18th C?), Ribayez, 17th C and Rousseau, late 18th century? And Merchi I think. The cittern is a very different instrument and a fairly minor instrument at this time. There is no comparable repertoire to the guitar. In fact, not much of a repertoire at all. But every barber's shop had one. Monica On the guitar it is not just a question of campanellas. The 5th course is used quite a lot as a treble string in the part writing and whether or not bourdons are used I think it is necessary to have it on the thumb side of the course. Monica Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics
You can. I have a recording of Olav Chris Henriksen playing the Campion fugue which has a short passage in harmonics and he is using the French tuning. He does it quite clearly. I think I have heard someone else do it as well. Can't remember. Monica - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:56 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics The nature of the pluck, I suppose. RT - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: ROMAN TUROVSKY r.turov...@verizon.net; vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 3:17 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: guitar publications with harmonics On Nov 21, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: By not much, as you cannot do them on double strings. Why not? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
