[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta x ornament starting note
Thanks Monica, I put my comments in line. On Jan 22, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: By chance I have a recording of Antonio Ligios playing this piece and as far as I can tell he is doing exactly what the ornaments seem to imply… Does he have any web presence? I couldn't find his performance on YouTube. Has anyone any thoughts about the starting note of the x ornament signs in Corbetta's La Guitar Royal of 1671, particularly the Folia starting on page 79? On p.9 he gives an example of a prepared appoggiatura on the fifth line. but there are numerous places that could be confusing. The x indicates that the auxiliary note or starting note is from above. Examples: P.79, line 4, measure 1: It is kind of jarring to start the trill ( I play a couple of iterations rather than an appoggiatura when the x is on a dotted quarter) on the upper note (B) right after a Bb in the top voice. I think the point is that it is an A major chord and you can't play a B flat auxiliary note. It must be B natural. Yes, B natural is a given. It just doesn't feel very natural to me to jump to that A chord and land with my third finger on a B, whereas starting with the A chord feels very natural. The cross relations (if that is the correct terminology) are quite typical of Corbetta's style. I guess he was pretty 'out there' with no preparation and all. It sounds jarring to me, but like you say maybe that was his style. The top line second measure of p.80 he indicates a slur f e followed by x. The f e is already an appoggiatura. The only thing I can think of is to reiterate the upper neighbor f from the e note, an upper mordant. I think that is what is intended here..and what Ligios seems to playthe notes are a f f-e d We may or may not be talking about the same place. I was saying f e f e concerning the notes on the first string, with the e f e being like a mordant on beat two (2 32 notes and 1 16th note) and the initial e being pulled off from the f on the second half of beat one. Then, the same type of thing on beat three, a mordant with the initial note C# being pulled off from the D on the second half of beat 2. I'm wondering if other people do this as this case isn't illustrated on his ornaments page. Perhaps he gives an example like this in another book? I don't see anything in Varii Capricii 1643. P.80 third line from bottom, 2nd measure: What's this about? X on a 16th note but preceded by an appoggiatura from above or below? From above I think -the notes are g g-f e. Well, there is an A at the end of the previous measure so that would make a nice prepared appoggiatura. The problem though is, then you have another appoggiatura on the F which means switching out of the third position (3rd fret) and all four notes happen in half a beat. Someone with very long fingers could perhaps sustain the D with the second finger and pull off pinky-ring and then reiterate the G and pull off ring to index. I interpret the line below as an appoggiatura from below as indicated on the ornaments page and then do a quick mordant on the F which comes out as a 32 note triplet in order to land on the E on the second half of the beat. This sounds pretty nifty with no ugly cut off like I would get trying to do an upper neighbor appoggiatura. I'm just not sure if this wasn't some kind of mistake, two ornaments on two 16th notes seems pushing it. The basic problem I'm having, well two really, is 1. you can't do an appoggiatura from above if a slur from the same neighbor precedes it. 2. Many places call for reiterations to my ear, especially cadences where there is a dotted quarter note followed by an eighth (quaver). An appoggiatura sounds wimpy there IMO. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta x ornament starting note
I'm not sure if I am the best person to advise you but. The Antonio Ligios' recording is an old one (1998). It's still available on Amazon at $25 but not otherwise. IMHO it is the best of Corbetta recordings. Your comments in square brackets... [Yes, B natural is a given. It just doesn't feel very natural to me to jump to that A chord and land with my third finger on a B, whereas starting with the A chord feels very natural] The first few bars of line 5 of the Folia are straightforward. dmin - g min Amaj dmin.= i iv V i in D minor. The Harvard Dictionary defines cross relations as 'the succession of a pitch in one voice by a chromatic alteration of that pitch in another voice'. which is what happens here - the b is flat in a G minor chord but natural when attached to an A major one.it doesn't need to be prepared, HD gives several examples from Bach. [The top line second measure of p.80 he indicates a slur f e followed by x. The f e is already an appoggiatura.] It isn't...harmonically speaking the g on the last quaver in the previous bar is suspended and resolves on the f - a 7-6 suspension. Although he has put a slur under the b-a = f-e I think you should ignore that and play it as I suggest i.e. f f-e d. The same with the next group of quavers. They are not mordents... [P.80 third line from bottom, 2nd measure: ] Well he hasn't indicated an appoggiatura on the first chord of the bar! You would switch out of 3rd postion before the G major chord, not after it. [Finally ... 1. you can't do an appoggiatura from above if a slur from the same neighbor precedes it. ] No but I think you just have to ignore the slur. [2. Many places call for reiterations to my ear, especially cadences where there is a dotted quarter note followed by an eighth (quaver). An appoggiatura sounds wimpy there IMO.] Well - it is never really made clear that the appgggiatura is to be followed by a trill. It is the same with Bartolotti. The only thing I can suggest is that you exercise your own discretion according to the value of the note to which the appoggiatura is attached. A long note might call for something more elaborate. I'm afraid that is the best I can do. Maybe someone else would interpret the notation differently. Monica Thanks Monica, I put my comments in line. On Jan 22, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: By chance I have a recording of Antonio Ligios playing this piece and as far as I can tell he is doing exactly what the ornaments seem to imply… Does he have any web presence? I couldn't find his performance on YouTube. Has anyone any thoughts about the starting note of the x ornament signs in Corbetta's La Guitar Royal of 1671, particularly the Folia starting on page 79? On p.9 he gives an example of a prepared appoggiatura on the fifth line. but there are numerous places that could be confusing. The x indicates that the auxiliary note or starting note is from above. Examples: P.79, line 4, measure 1: It is kind of jarring to start the trill ( I play a couple of iterations rather than an appoggiatura when the x is on a dotted quarter) on the upper note (B) right after a Bb in the top voice. I think the point is that it is an A major chord and you can't play a B flat auxiliary note. It must be B natural. Yes, B natural is a given. It just doesn't feel very natural to me to jump to that A chord and land with my third finger on a B, whereas starting with the A chord feels very natural. The cross relations (if that is the correct terminology) are quite typical of Corbetta's style. I guess he was pretty 'out there' with no preparation and all. It sounds jarring to me, but like you say maybe that was his style. The top line second measure of p.80 he indicates a slur f e followed by x. The f e is already an appoggiatura. The only thing I can think of is to reiterate the upper neighbor f from the e note, an upper mordant. I think that is what is intended here..and what Ligios seems to playthe notes are a f f-e d We may or may not be talking about the same place. I was saying f e f e concerning the notes on the first string, with the e f e being like a mordant on beat two (2 32 notes and 1 16th note) and the initial e being pulled off from the f on the second half of beat one. Then, the same type of thing on beat three, a mordant with the initial note C# being pulled off from the D on the second half of beat 2. I'm wondering if other people do this as this case isn't illustrated on his ornaments page. Perhaps he gives an example like this in another book? I don't see anything in Varii Capricii 1643. P.80 third line from bottom, 2nd measure: What's this about? X on a 16th note but preceded by an appoggiatura from above or below? From above I think -the notes are g g-f e. Well, there is an A at the end of the previous measure so that would make a nice prepared appoggiatura. The problem though
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta x ornament starting note
By chance I have a recording of Antonio Ligios playing this piece and as far as I can tell he is doing exactly what the ornaments seem to imply... Has anyone any thoughts about the starting note of the x ornament signs in Corbetta's La Guitar Royal of 1671, particularly the Folia starting on page 79? On p.9 he gives an example of a prepared appoggiatura on the fifth line. but there are numerous places that could be confusing. The x indicates that the auxiliary note or starting note is from above. Examples: P.79, line 4, measure 1: It is kind of jarring to start the trill ( I play a couple of iterations rather than an appoggiatura when the x is on a dotted quarter) on the upper note (B) right after a Bb in the top voice. I think the point is that it is an A major chord and you can't play a B flat auxiliary note. It must be B natural. The cross relations (if that is the correct terminology) are quite typical of Corbetta's style. The top line second measure of p.80 he indicates a slur f e followed by x. The f e is already an appoggiatura. The only thing I can think of is to reiterate the upper neighbor f from the e note, an upper mordant. I think that is what is intended here..and what Ligios seems to playthe notes are a f f-e d P.80 third line from bottom, 2nd measure: What's this about? X on a 16th note but preceded by an appoggiatura from above or below? From above I think -the notes are g g-f e. That's my 2 pennyworth anyway. I expect someone will contradict me. TIA What does TIA mean? Regards Monica Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
