[VIHUELA] Re: Web pages
Well - I hope both. What really needs to be made simple is the notation I think. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 10:01 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Web pages Monica Hall wrote: I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It all forms part of my project with the title "The baroque guitar made simple" I'll certainly be reading it all. When you say "baroque guitar made simple", do you mean 'the tangled world of Baroque guitar issues' made simple rather than playing the thing? Stuart and it consists of translations of the instructions to the player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna, Sanseverino and Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate section on alfabeto songs. There is a general introduction and then the pages about Foscarini and Bartolotti follow on. Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received. I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The books do throw up quite a lot of interesting background details. For example Colonna and Sanseverino both dedicated books to the Milanese nobleman Conde Iulio Borromeo who was related to Saint Charles Borromeo and Colonna says he was living in Iulio Cesare's household when he composed his pieces. There is more to these books than meets the eye. cheers Monica -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Web pages
Hi Jocelyn Any feedback will be welcome. Monica - Original Message - From: "Nelson, Jocelyn" To: "Monica Hall" ; "Vihuelalist" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:40 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Web pages Monica, This is so very valuable, thank you for all your great work. I've already forwarded it to my little Baroque guitar class and the three of us will explore it tomorrow morning together. Best, Jocelyn -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax [1]nels...@ecu.edu _______ From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:03:32 -0400 To: Vihuelalist <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [VIHUELA] Web pages I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It all forms part of my project with the title "The baroque guitar made simple" and it consists of translations of the instructions to the player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna, Sanseverino and Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate section on alfabeto songs. There is a general introduction and then the pages about Foscarini and Bartolotti follow on. Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received. I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The books do throw up quite a lot of interesting background details. For example Colonna and Sanseverino both dedicated books to the Milanese nobleman Conde Iulio Borromeo who was related to Saint Charles Borromeo and Colonna says he was living in Iulio Cesare's household when he composed his pieces. There is more to these books than meets the eye. cheers Monica -- References 1. [4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Web pages
Well it doesn't seem to work. Monica - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Web pages Alex Dean has provided this link himself L. - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Web pages On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: If you have time, you should go to http://cid-8fbb9aaef9718a0a.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/The%20Five-Course%20Guitar%20and%20Seventeenth-Century%20Harmony%20Alfabeto%20and%20Italian%20Song.pdf Thank you, whoever made this available. But to open, one needs to change the extension pdf_ to pdf David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Web pages
Yes - but that is still to come... I am planning to move on to Corbetta next and that leads into French tablature and French sources. But it all takes time.. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Vihuela Dmth Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages Dear Monica, As ever all very good stuff thank you. The precise translations (and uncertainties) are particularly helpful and I especially welcome the inclusion of songs with guitar - a popular contemporary form which, it seems to me, is much neglected nowadays. Perhaps, to show a fuller and trans-national picture, it might also be useful to include the (if rather pedestrian) settings by French composers (eg Moulinie, Pierre Ballard 1629) which are more specific about strums (in terms of which courses to sound etc) and could support our interpretation of the Italian alfabeto settings. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 15/3/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Web pages To: "Vihuelalist" Date: Monday, 15 March, 2010, 21:03 I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It all forms part of my project with the title "The baroque guitar made simple" and it consists of translations of the instructions to the player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna, Sanseverino and Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate section on alfabeto songs. There is a general introduction and then the pages about Foscarini and Bartolotti follow on. Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received. I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The books do throw up quite a lot of interesting background details. For example Colonna and Sanseverino both dedicated books to the Milanese nobleman Conde Iulio Borromeo who was related to Saint Charles Borromeo and Colonna says he was living in Iulio Cesare's household when he composed his pieces. There is more to these books than meets the eye. cheers Monica -- References 1. [4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Web pages
Thanks for that... I usually have my Internet browser set up to read everything in Spanish. When I changed it to English it downloaded straight away! Interesting although a lot of it seems to cover familiar ground. The musical examples and lists are invaluable. Monica - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lex Eisenhardt" ; "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Web pages On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well it doesn't seem to work. It does for me. Click on 'Download'. Once on your computer, change the extension from pdf_ to pdf. Open with Acrobat. David Monica - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Web pages Alex Dean has provided this link himself L. - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Web pages On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: If you have time, you should go to http://cid-8fbb9aaef9718a0a.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/The%20Five-Course%20Guitar%20and%20Seventeenth-Century%20Harmony%20Alfabeto%20and%20Italian%20Song.pdf Thank you, whoever made this available. But to open, one needs to change the extension pdf_ to pdf David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[VIHUELA] Re: Web pages
Thanks - any comments and corrections gratefully received. Monica - Original Message - From: "Mjos & Larson" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:35 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Web pages Thank you, Monica! I have downloaded the files and am slowly reading through them. Many interesting details I had not read about before. Wonderful! -- R On Mar 15, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Monica Hall wrote: I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It all forms part of my project with the title "The baroque guitar made simple" and it consists of translations of the instructions to the player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna, Sanseverino and Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate section on alfabeto songs. There is a general introduction and then the pages about Foscarini and Bartolotti follow on. Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received. I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The books do throw up quite a lot of interesting background details. For example Colonna and Sanseverino both dedicated books to the Milanese nobleman Conde Iulio Borromeo who was related to Saint Charles Borromeo and Colonna says he was living in Iulio Cesare's household when he composed his pieces. There is more to these books than meets the eye. cheers Monica -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar method in preparation
Yes - very interesting. He has done a splendid edition of Guerau amongst other things. Couldn't listen to any of the music though. I wonder why. Monica - Original Message - From: "Mjos & Larson" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:44 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar method in preparation I came across another guitar publication that will be published this year. Thomas Schmitt expects his "Nuevo método para guitarra barroca" to be ready in the autumn. http://www.gatomurr.com/Gato_Murr/en_breve.html List members may already be aware of his two editions of Bach transcriptions for our wonderful instrument. Sound and page samples can be found by poking around the Gato Murr site. Mr Schmitt's blog also has some interesting things on it: http://thomasschmitt.wordpress.com/ I use Google translate for a rough version in English. -- R To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
Well - it's a bit late at night and I have been away all day helping to look after my sister who is very ill so I am not my brightest and best.. My plan was to do Corbetta's Italian prefaces and then go back to the beginning to try to trace how French tab developed before Corbetta and La guitarre royale.. These are a few random thoughts which may not be to the point. I have only got a few French sources dating from before Francois Martin lined up at present. There doesn't seem to be a great deal but there may be things I am not aware of. Apart from anything else I think the French - and everybody including the English - didn't need printed books specifically designed for them at first because they would have been able to obtain Italian publications easily. Mersenne had copies of Millioni and Colonna. Music publishing is and was an international undertaking. I think the reason why they don't use alfabeto has as much to do with what the printers were able and willing to do as anything else. In manuscript sources - at lest in the Gallot ms. alfabeto is combined with French tab. And there are manuscript fragments with Italian stroke marks. I did actually ask Gerard Rebours whether there are sources which put the note values on the stave earlier than Martin and he couldn't think of any. It is actually Carbonchi who first put the stroke marks on the stave. But why did the French invent French tablature in the first place - an interesting question? It has always seemed less logical than Italian to me. That will have to do for tonight but it is an interesting subject and perhaps some of the others will have some thoughts. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:29 AM Subject: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s I don't expect the impossible - even from you Monica! But my mentioning the early French connection was the link to intabulations in France around the same dates as the Italian sources you listed ie up to the 1620s. In short, the pre-Corbetta days. The unfamiliarity of the strummed style in this period surely led, with true gallic systemisation, to the perceived need to intabulate precisely (or as precisely as they cld manage) the manner of strumming. Whereas it seems to me that with local familiarity of the instrument in Italy (and a more relaxed, rather than procrustean, Italian approach) there was not such a need for precise intabulations. Speculative of course, but hence my remark even at this stage.. Martyn --- On Tue, 16/3/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Tuesday, 16 March, 2010, 9:17 Yes - but that is still to come... I am planning to move on to Corbetta next and that leads into French tablature and French sources. But it all takes time.. Monica - Original Message - From: [3]Martyn Hodgson To: [4]Monica Hall ; [5]Vihuela Dmth Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages Dear Monica, As ever all very good stuff thank you. The precise translations (and uncertainties) are particularly helpful and I especially welcome the inclusion of songs with guitar - a popular contemporary form which, it seems to me, is much neglected nowadays. Perhaps, to show a fuller and trans-national picture, it might also be useful to include the (if rather pedestrian) settings by French composers (eg Moulinie, Pierre Ballard 1629) which are more specific about strums (in terms of which courses to sound etc) and could support our interpretation of the Italian alfabeto settings. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 15/3/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Web pages To: "Vihuelalist" Date: Monday, 15 March, 2010, 21:03 I have now added a big chunk of new stuff on my web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It all forms part of my project with the title "The baroque guitar made simple" and it consists of translations of the instructions to the player from the guitar books of Montesardo, Colonna, Sanseverino and Millioni with comments and musical examples and a separate section on alfabeto songs. There is a general introduction and then the pages about Foscarini and Bartolotti follow on. Any comments and corrections will be gratefully received. I hope someone will find it as interesting as I do. The books do throw up quite a lot of interesting background details. For example Colonna and Sanseverino both dedicated bo
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
Yes - I understand the point you are making. What I said is that Francois Martin's book is the first in French tablature in which the note values are placed on the stave with the tails down or up to indicate the direction of the strummed strokes. Moulinie doesn't do this. There are two things about this source. 1. He doesn't give any indication that the chords are meant to be strummed. 2. He clearly indicates when open courses are to be included in the chords by including the "a"s. The reason for this is that the songs are included in a volume of Airs de Cour - most of which have a lute accompaniment - volume 3 of a series of lute songs and the guitar accompaniment is notated and printed in the same way as the lute accompaniment. It is not typical of later French sources. I think most people would accept that the accompaniment is intended to be strummed - it wouldn't make much sense to play it in any other way. So it is an example of - What you see isn't what you are supposed to do! Moulinie may not have been a guitarist. Martin doesn't indicate which open courses are to be included. Hope that clarifies matters. Monica - Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Monica Hall" ; "Vihuela Dmth" Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:41 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s The Moulinie (1629) I mentioned earlier is well before Martin (1663) which I think you say in your Bartolotti paper is the first French guitar book in tablature. M --- On Wed, 17/3/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Wednesday, 17 March, 2010, 20:50 Well - it's a bit late at night and I have been away all day helping to look after my sister who is very ill so I am not my brightest and best.. My plan was to do Corbetta's Italian prefaces and then go back to the beginning to try to trace how French tab developed before Corbetta and La guitarre royale.. These are a few random thoughts which may not be to the point. I have only got a few French sources dating from before Francois Martin lined up at present. There doesn't seem to be a great deal but there may be things I am not aware of. Apart from anything else I think the French - and everybody including the English - didn't need printed books specifically designed for them at first because they would have been able to obtain Italian publications easily. Mersenne had copies of Millioni and Colonna. Music publishing is and was an international undertaking. I think the reason why they don't use alfabeto has as much to do with what the printers were able and willing to do as anything else. In manuscript sources - at lest in the Gallot ms. alfabeto is combined with French tab. And there are manuscript fragments with Italian stroke marks. I did actually ask Gerard Rebours whether there are sources which put the note values on the stave earlier than Martin and he couldn't think of any. It is actually Carbonchi who first put the stroke marks on the stave. But why did the French invent French tablature in the first place - an interesting question? It has always seemed less logical than Italian to me. That will have to do for tonight but it is an interesting subject and perhaps some of the others will have some thoughts. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:29 AM Subject: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s I don't expect the impossible - even from you Monica! But my mentioning the early French connection was the link to intabulations in France around the same dates as the Italian sources you listed ie up to the 1620s. In short, the pre-Corbetta days. The unfamiliarity of the strummed style in this period surely led, with true gallic systemisation, to the perceived need to intabulate precisely (or as precisely as they cld manage) the manner of strumming. Whereas it seems to me that with local familiarity of the instrument in Italy (and a more relaxed, rather than procrustean, Italian approach) there was not such a need for precise intabulations. Speculative of course, but hence my remark even at this stage.. Martyn --- On Tue, 16/3/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Web pages To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Tuesday, 16 March, 2010, 9:17 Yes - but that is still to come... I am planning to move on to Corbetta next and that leads into French tablature and French sources. But it all takes time.. Monica - Original Message - From: [3]M
[VIHUELA] Re: Arus Baroque guitar manuscript
I have already got a copy of it! The Biblioteca Arus is in Barcelona and Alfred Fernandez has actually recorded some of the pieces on a CD with the title "Ad hunc modum" . This is the contents if anyone wants it. 13ff unnumbered. Italian tablature with alfabeto f.1-1v 1. Grave muy despacio G sol re ut. C * f1v-3v 2. Allegro 12/8* f.3v-4 3. Tocata de [.danca] por la C D major 3 f.4-5 4. [Coriente?] Alegre D major C 5v-7v 5. [Car.?] Diferencias. D major 3 f.8-9 6. Preludio C D major 3 f.9-9v 7. Sigue la Passacalle D major 3 f.10-11 8. [..?] G sol ut G minor 3 f.11-11v 9. Grave G minor C* f.12-12v 10. Minuete F major 3 f.13 Alfabeto chords +, A B and D and C not filled in. *Played by Alfred Fernandez on LMG 2044 Monica - Original Message - From: "Mjos & Larson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 4:00 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Arus Baroque guitar manuscript Thomas Schmitt has uploaded a scan of a Baroque guitar manuscript to his Ning page. http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/ThomasSchmitt The manuscript doesn't seem to be listed in Tyler's "The Guitar and its Music" (though I may have missed it). -- R Here is Mr Schmitt's comments: As a welcome gift I attach a baroque guitar tablature from the Arús library in Barcelona. Although the title refers to a Viguela, the instrument is unequivocally a five-course guitar. I haven't analyzed the manuscript, but it seems to be from the second half of the 18th century. Enjoy the music... Thomas -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arus Baroque guitar manuscript
I should have mentioned too that Thomas has made a very nice recording of Spanish baroque guitar music - its on the Musicaphon label M 56819. it has music by Guerau, Murcia, Santa Cruz and Sanz and three pieces from another ms. in the Biblioteca de Catalunya. Maybe you can find a web site where we can listen to it. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Mjos & Larson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arus Baroque guitar manuscript Thanks for the tip, Monica. People might be able to give a listen at: [4]http://www.rhapsody.com/alfred-fernandez/sanz-guerau-ad-hunc-modu m-musica-de-manuscrits-catalans -- R On Mar 18, 2010, at 11:42 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Alfred Fernandez -- References 1. mailto:rockype...@earthlink.net 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.rhapsody.com/alfred-fernandez/sanz-guerau-ad-hunc-modum-musica-de-manuscrits-catalans To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
Well - I don't want to get too bogged down in this at this stage but there
are few points which I think are worth considering.
These songs are included in a volume (which is part of a series) of Airs de
Cour, all the rest of which have lute accompaniment.
When notating the guitar accompaniment, Moulinie has used the same system as
he has for the lute parts. When printing and marketing the music you
wouldn't chose to notate a few of the songs in a completely different way
which would probably involve using a different printing process.
I wouldn't assume that in 1629 that alfabeto notation or the strummed style
were unknown in France. Apart from anything else Castilian ciphers used by
Brizeno would have been known as his book was printed in 1626 and apparently
there was an influx of Spaniards and a fashion for things Spanish in the
wake of the marriage of Louis XIII to Anne of Austria in 1615.
The dot under the three part chords does indicate that these should be raked
with the first finger as on the lute but there is no indication that the
5-part chords
should be strummed.
I am not sure what you mean by beaming chords. The tie under the chords
indicates that they are played against a single sustained note/syllable in
the voice part not the chords are strummed as I understand it.
But there are very few sources in French tablature for the 5-course guitar
either printed or in clearly dated manuscripts. Amongst these Moulinie is
the only one that writes out the chords in full and doesn't clearly indicate
that 5-part chords are to be strummed.
I hope I am not imposing my own retrospective judgment on anything!
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:55 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
Well, I'm not so sure.
Without the knowledge or general use of alfabeto and strum direction
signs (but note the index finger upstroke sign he uses), Moulinie's
tablature looks a suitable way of indicating strumming (beaming chords;
using dot for index finger up strum/rake, consistent use of chords
using all five courses) without employing such symbols.
Presumably these relatively new symbols were little known in France at
the time so that full intabulation was an obvious method to use for
marketing the publication.
I think it prudent not to impose our own retrospective judgements on
such evidence. Hence why I thought it might be useful to look at this
source for guitar accompanied songs ('AIR DE COURT / AVEC LA TABLATURE
DE LUTH ET DE GUITARRE' ) at the same time as the Italian strummed
(alfabeto) song accompaniments (ie pre- Corbetta) you discussed in your
latest excellent paper.
It is also surely of relevance that the lute song settings are to
French texts (with one exception - the dialogue 'Soufrez beaux yeux' )
whereas the guitar accompaniments are all to Italian and Spanish texts
- surely an indication that the foreign (strummed) style was not unkown
in France (even if the special guitar symbols were largely so). .
Incidentally I don't understand your comment that 'What you see isn't
what you are supposed to do!' - what are you expected to do that can't
be seen?
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 18/3/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Thursday, 18 March, 2010, 13:25
Yes - I understand the point you are making.
What I said is that Francois Martin's book is the first in French
tablature
in which the note values are placed on the stave with the tails down or
up
to indicate the direction of the strummed strokes.
Moulinie doesn't do this. There are two things about this source.
1. He doesn't give any indication that the chords are meant to be
strummed.
2. He clearly indicates when open courses are to be included in the
chords
by including the "a"s.
The reason for this is that the songs are included in a volume of Airs
de
Cour - most of which have a lute accompaniment - volume 3 of a series
of
lute songs and the guitar accompaniment is notated and printed in the
same
way as the lute accompaniment. It is not typical of later French
sources.
I think most people would accept that the accompaniment is intended to
be
strummed - it wouldn't make much sense to play it in any other way.
So it is an example of - What you see isn't what you are supposed to
do!
Moulinie may not have been a guitarist.
Martin doesn't indicate which open courses are to be included.
Hope that clarifies matters.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson" &l
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
I think we are going round in circles and not really understanding one another. Some time ago Timo Peedu did an edition of the Moulinie songs which is on the Earlyguitar.ning site. We discussed the notation at the time but I'm not sure whether this was in private or on the list. There is an article in Lute 1999 by Jonathan Le Cocq in which he explains Moulinie's notation in some detail as it relates primarily to the lute parts but the signs and symbols presumably (if I may use that word) have the same meaning when used in the guitar parts. The star means that you should hold the note.Le Cocq says "The star functions as a slash does in conventional tablatures - it indicates that a note should be sustained." "Unlike the slash it gives no guidance as to the duration of the held note...but has the advantage that it can be attached to inner notes of a chord." According to Le Cocq the slurs are to co-ordinate the accompaniment with the voice part. Notes included in a slur or slash are played against a single sustained note/syllable in the voice part. (Presumably) this is how they are used in the lute tablature as well as the guitar. For the rest of it - I am not paraphrasing anything you saying. I said "I wouldn't assume (not anyone else) that in 1629 that alfabeto notation or the strummed style were unknown in France." Apart from that you queried what I have said in the Bartolotti about Francois Martin's book being the first in French tablature in which the note values are placed on the stave with the tails down or up to indicate the direction of the strummed strokes. Moulinie does not put the note values on the stave with the tails down and up so it is not relevant to mention him at all in that context. My comment 'What you see isn't what you are supposed to do!' refers to the 5-part chords. There is no indication in Moulinie that these are to be strummed - but I have said at least once in this correspondence that that is surely how they are meant to be played. It's just my way of saying things. As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned this is a huge and complex topic. All I have tried to do in that section is to draw attention to the few sources that give any indication as to how the accompaniments should be played - specifically to Sanseverino's written out accompaniments which nobody else seems to have mentioned and Fasolo's system of indicating how many time each chord should be played. And a few of the other multitude of problems. I don't think Moulinie is relevant in this context. But if and when I ever get as far as writing about how French guitar notation evolved I promise you he will have pride of place. As ever Monica
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
Thanks for that. - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s In F-Pg MS 2344 (Ms from c. 1649, which belonged to Mr Dupille, Commissaire des Guerres) the notes are on the stave, up and down. L To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s
I think you are splitting hairs really... As far as Bartolotti is concerned what I have actually said is Bartolotti may have adapted this idea (i.e. putting note values on the stave) from earlier French guitar sources although in the absence of any surviving printed guitar books in French tablature earlier than François Martin's Pieces de Guitairre (Paris, 1663) this is difficult to establish. Mersenne credits a Monsieur Martin (probably not the same person as François Martin) with the idea of placing the note values above the stave with the stems up or down depending on the direction of the strokes... There are three points here - 1. I have not said that Martin's book is the first to use French tablature!!! I am specifically referring to the fact that Bartolotti has put the note values on the stave with the tails up and down and Martin's book is the earliest surviving printed source to do this. Moulinie does not do this and what he does do is irrelevant when trying to trace the origin of this aspect of Bartolotti's notation. It seems that there is an earlier dated manuscript in which the music is notated in this way and I am about to try and order a copy of it from the Bibliotheque nationale. 2. A minor point - I have said "guitar books" by which I mean books/sources explicitly intended for 5-course guitar not song books which happen to include a few items with guitar accompaniment. 3. As a matter of interest "en passant" Mersenne does not indicate the open courses to be included in the strum - which suggests that as with Italian sources this may not have been standard practice in French sources either. As far as Moulinie is concerned I wouldn't rely entirely on Le Cocq's article but 1. The star is attached to a few of the 5-part chords in circumstances where it makes sense to sustain the note. If it is supposed to indicate that these chords should be strummed with the thumb, are all the other 5-part chords which haven't got stars supposed to be played with the fingers? 2. The same is true of the ties under the notes. I would suggest that you look at Timu Peedu's transcription. I know that all except one of the songs have Italian or Spanish words but I don't think that this tells us very much about how the Italian songs were accompanied. What is possible and very likely is that when playing the accompaniments, guitarists jazzed them up with trilli and repiccos but this is not the same thing as just playing the top three courses of a 5-part chord - this is a lute device. At present I would maintain (without prejudice) that these guitar songs are notated using the same symbols as the lute accompaniments and that these have the same meaning in both contexts. But I may change my mind in time. As ever Monica ----- Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 8:43 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar strumming indications up to 1620s Many thanks for this Monica: I don't think it's 'going round in circles'; it's more to do with prescision and ensuring accuracy and clarity of views Few comments on yr last: - In the guitar intabulations I'd query Le Cocq's interpretation of the * as having the same function as the 'slash' since the guitar tablature also uses the slash sign (as well as the previously mentioned beaming sign). - I think placing all reliance on Le Cocq's views in the earlier Lute article, which I thought at the time was an important contribution, is rather begging the question since as you have also said Moulinie himself does not explain the interpretation of his signs. The suggestion that the * might be a thumb stroke comes from notation in, naturally, later French tablatures which have a special sign for the thumb stroke. - Where do I query what you said in the Bartolotti paper 'about Francois Martin's book being the first in French tablature in which the note values are placed on the stave with the tails down or up to indicate the direction of the strummed strokes.' ? What in fact I did query was that you said in the Barolotti paper that the Martin (1663) was the first French guitar book (in 17thC) to use tablature and then I mentioned the Moulinie (1629). As already mentioned, your latest generally excellent paper on alfabeto accompaniments is most welcome but as I've already said ' I had in mind the thought that a contemporary (pre-Corbetta) French source (such as the Moulinie) might be able to provide some evidence of performance practice which the contemporary Italian sources (documented in your excellent paper) were less than clear about. In this case the precise courses incorporated into a downwards strum/stroke and an upwar
[VIHUELA] Via Crucis
Don't miss Christina Pluhar and Arppeggiata's latest - Via Crucis - with a Corsican Male voice quartet. On the Virgin label. Just the thing to get you in the mood for Holy Week. As ever Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Angelloe (Bartolotti?) -- cross post
Well - it is interesting that you should mention this. You can access the catalogue of Christchurch Oxford on line where you will find a detailed description of the manuscript. - it is Ms. Mus.377. It includes a reference to an article which I duly obtained a copy of and read - Geoffrey Webber, 'Italian Music at the Court of Queen Christina: Christ Church, Oxford, Mus. MS 377 and the Visit of Vincenzo Albrici's Italian Ensemble, 1652-54', Svensk Tidskrift för Musikforskning, 1993:2, pp. 47-53. (That's why I asked you for the earlier article) I can't give all the details but he suggests that the ms. may have been given to Whitlocke - who entertained the Italian musicans whilst he was in Stockholm - and that he brought it to England. I suppose Mr. Angelloe could be Bartolotti. I have been meaning to go to Oxford to have a look at the ms. but haven't got around to it yet. I'd like to know where to access the full entry for the Rogers. Best Monica - Original Message - From: "Mjos & Larson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 10:41 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Angelloe (Bartolotti?) -- cross post (Also posted to the Lute List) While browsing in the Duben database today I came across an entry for a Suite by Benjamin Rogers that mentioned a "mr Angelloe". Although the Uppsala University website suggests this referred to a patron of Rogers, I wondered if it might just as possibly refer to Bartolotti. James Tyler lists a cantata manuscript in Oxford (GB-Och MS 377) that is believed to have belonged to Bartolotti. (TGAIM footnote on page 69) Perhaps there was an exchange of music between the English musicians that travelled with Bulstrode Whitelocke and the Italian group in Stockholm which included Bartolotti. -- R - http://www.musik.uu.se/duben/presentationSource.php?Select_Dnr!65 UUB: imhs 005:013b Composer: Rogers,Benjamin,1614-1698 Title: Suite Full title: In f faut Scoring: treble2 tenor b Date: 1651x Source comments: On imhs 5:13a, treble 2: paujn: "ffor mr Angelloe these" -- mr Angelloe probably refers to Nathaniel Ingelo, patron to Rogers and member of Whitelockes embassy to Sweden 1653-54. The two mentioned suites by Rogers that were presented to Queen Christina (Holman 1984) are likely identical to imhs 5:13a and 5:13b./KHE "ffor mr Angelloe these" can be seen here: http://www.musik.uu.se/duben/displayFacsimile.php? Select_Path=imhs005,013a_p02_02v.jpg -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Angelloe (Bartolotti?) -- cross post
- Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Angelloe (Bartolotti?) -- cross post A quick re-read of Webber's article - there is a reference to Whitelocke's chaplain and musical director in Sweden - Nathaniel Ingelo - who took some of Benjamin Roger's music to Sweden so it seems likely that "Angelloe" would be Ingelo rather than Bartolotti. One day I may get to Oxford - the main reason for wanting to look at the mss. was to see if there is any indication that the guitar took part in the accompaniment - but there are only 24 hours in the day and a lot of other things to do in them. Monica - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Lutelist" Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Angelloe (Bartolotti?) -- cross post Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Angelloe (Bartolotti?) -- cross post Well - it is interesting that you should mention this. You can access the catalogue of Christchurch Oxford on line where you will find a detailed description of the manuscript. - it is Ms. Mus.377. It includes a reference to an article which I duly obtained a copy of and read - Geoffrey Webber, 'Italian Music at the Court of Queen Christina: Christ Church, Oxford, Mus. MS 377 and the Visit of Vincenzo Albrici's Italian Ensemble, 1652-54', Svensk Tidskrift för Musikforskning, 1993:2, pp. 47-53. (That's why I asked you for the earlier article) I can't give all the details but he suggests that the ms. may have been given to Whitlocke - who entertained the Italian musicans whilst he was in Stockholm - and that he brought it to England. I suppose Mr. Angelloe could be Bartolotti. I have been meaning to go to Oxford to have a look at the ms. but haven't got around to it yet. I'd like to know where to access the full entry for the Rogers. Best Monica - Original Message - From: "Mjos & Larson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 10:41 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Angelloe (Bartolotti?) -- cross post (Also posted to the Lute List) While browsing in the Duben database today I came across an entry for a Suite by Benjamin Rogers that mentioned a "mr Angelloe". Although the Uppsala University website suggests this referred to a patron of Rogers, I wondered if it might just as possibly refer to Bartolotti. James Tyler lists a cantata manuscript in Oxford (GB-Och MS 377) that is believed to have belonged to Bartolotti. (TGAIM footnote on page 69) Perhaps there was an exchange of music between the English musicians that travelled with Bulstrode Whitelocke and the Italian group in Stockholm which included Bartolotti. -- R - http://www.musik.uu.se/duben/presentationSource.php?Select_Dnr!65 UUB: imhs 005:013b Composer: Rogers,Benjamin,1614-1698 Title: Suite Full title: In f faut Scoring: treble2 tenor b Date: 1651x Source comments: On imhs 5:13a, treble 2: paujn: "ffor mr Angelloe these" -- mr Angelloe probably refers to Nathaniel Ingelo, patron to Rogers and member of Whitelockes embassy to Sweden 1653-54. The two mentioned suites by Rogers that were presented to Queen Christina (Holman 1984) are likely identical to imhs 5:13a and 5:13b./KHE "ffor mr Angelloe these" can be seen here: http://www.musik.uu.se/duben/displayFacsimile.php? Select_Path=imhs005,013a_p02_02v.jpg -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Codex Zuola
Well - I don't know if this is any help but a study of it which includes facsimiles of at least some of the pieces and transcriptions was published. It is by Carlos Vega and was published by the University of Buenas Aires University Press in 1931! I have a copy of this. It is in Spanish obviously. If you tell me a bit more about what you want to know maybe I could scan some pages. One of the interesting things about it is that it uncludes all the names of the guitar chords in Castilian cifras. Monica - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" To: "Vihuelalist" ; "lutelist Net" Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:44 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Codex Zuola Is the Codex Zuola from Peru available? On-line would be easiets, but edition, facsimile, microfilm, whatever will do as well. David - keeps asking questions, but hopes to give something back, too -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini-Granata
That is fascinating! I haven't had time to look at the pieces closely but it doesn't surprise me. Most of the introduction to Granata's 1646 book has also been copied from Foscarini. And he accused Corbetta of plagiarism! But the pieces may not be by Foscarini either! Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 8:12 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini-Granata I suppose this is well known, but it's news to me: A French chap on the EG&V ning site put up a scan of Granata (1659) a few days ago. It's got some re-entrant tunings at the end of the book and it has got the re-entrant tuning that Foscarini used, 'la cordatura diferente' (Fosco p.99). And it's got a couple of the same tunes too! This particular tuning in Granata (B-D-G-B-D) begins on page 88. The 'corrente' on page 90 in Granata is the very similar to the Foscarini 'corrente' (admittedly with some differences) and the very sultry sarabande in Foscarini, is here in Granata (p.92) a 'pasacgli'. Granata's 'pasacgli' is different in some ways but it's such a characterful piece that it is unmistakably the same material (including a particularly juicy chord) as Foscarini's 'sarabande'. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini-Granata
Thank you Stuart - it's very convenient to have them side by side and they are the right size. I tend to avoid scordatura pieces. I hate re-tuning my guitar and I find that it takes all morning for it to settle into the new interval pattern. I don't know why that should be. I have played through Fosco's pieces in the past but not Granata - I have never got to grips with his books. They are so badly printed. On the subject of Foscarini - someone has offered to help with the tablature transcription of some of the pieces. He is doing some pieces in Book 3 and when he has done them I will key them in and add them to the great project. Even if you photocopy the pieces and suggests some note values and bar lines it would be helpful. I haven't attempted the scordatura pieces as this would involve re-setting the tablature programme as well as re-tuning the guitar. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 9:52 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini-Granata Stuart Walsh wrote: That is fascinating! I haven't had time to look at the pieces closely but it doesn't surprise me. Most of the introduction to Granata's 1646 book has also been copied from Foscarini. And he accused Corbetta of plagiarism! But the pieces may not be by Foscarini either! Monica Here are the two corrente (Fosco and Granata) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/FoscoGran.jpg (I hope I haven't made them too small). They are not the same - but very similar - especially when you play them. and here is the Foscarini 'sarabande' with the Granata 'pasacagli' http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/FoscoGran1.jpg Stuart Stuart - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 8:12 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini-Granata I suppose this is well known, but it's news to me: A French chap on the EG&V ning site put up a scan of Granata (1659) a few days ago. It's got some re-entrant tunings at the end of the book and it has got the re-entrant tuning that Foscarini used, 'la cordatura diferente' (Fosco p.99). And it's got a couple of the same tunes too! This particular tuning in Granata (B-D-G-B-D) begins on page 88. The 'corrente' on page 90 in Granata is the very similar to the Foscarini 'corrente' (admittedly with some differences) and the very sultry sarabande in Foscarini, is here in Granata (p.92) a 'pasacgli'. Granata's 'pasacgli' is different in some ways but it's such a characterful piece that it is unmistakably the same material (including a particularly juicy chord) as Foscarini's 'sarabande'. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Corbetta
Don't know whether the rest of you have already noticed this but Carpe Diem have recently released a beautiful recording of music from Corbetta's 1671 Guitarre royale played by Rosario Conte - the best recording available now Antonio Ligios recording is no longer available. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Well - he may look scary but he plays like an angel. Monica - Original Message - From: "Nelson, Jocelyn" To: "Stuart Walsh" ; "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta : ) That is a scary looking picture, but I enjoyed the little bit of samples that I heard. Jocelyn ___ From: Stuart Walsh <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 12:15:44 -0400 To: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta Monica Hall wrote: >Don't know whether the rest of you have already noticed this but Carpe >Diem have recently released a beautiful recording of music from >Corbetta's 1671 Guitarre royale played by Rosario Conte - the best >recording available now Antonio Ligios recording is no longer >available. > > > >Monica > >-- > > I just looked on Amazon UK. Is it called "Une larme" with a rather fierce-looking chap on the CD cover who looks like he's going to bash you over the head with his Baroque guitar? Stuart > To get on or off this list see list information at > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: de Visee with basses
Gerard Rebours has done a thematic catalogue of De Visee with concordances. It's published by Symetrie. Monica - Original Message - From: "Nelson, Jocelyn" To: "wikla" ; Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee with basses Hi Arto, I don't know offhand, but I think Rebours has done a concordance of de Visee's works, and perhaps Dunn has written something as well. These are beautiful pieces. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn ___ From: wikla <[1]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi> Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:40:00 -0400 To: <[2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [VIHUELA] de Visee with basses Dear flat back lutenists, especially baroque guitarists, I've done some de Visee tubings by "Theorbe de pieces" that perhaps might interest also baroque guitarists? In any case de Visee made (or had made?) his guitar pieces to theorbo and his theorbo pieces to guitar. So the following theorbo pieces perhaps have also guitar versions (without the basses, of course ;-) (and probably also exluding the prelude?): Prelude: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65CI-xbiCSs ([4]http://vimeo.com/11928077) Allemande: [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpU1ooPd5Pc ([6]http://vimeo.com/11989271) Courante: [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FTRLX5vBSE ([8]http://vimeo.com/12080243) Menuet en rondeau: [9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsY-W43XzsA ([10]http://vimeo.com/12115778) So are there baroque guitar versions of these? Perhaps someone has played those also to the tubes? Let me know! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65CI-xbiCSs 4. http://vimeo.com/11928077 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpU1ooPd5Pc 6. http://vimeo.com/11989271 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FTRLX5vBSE 8. http://vimeo.com/12080243 9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsY-W43XzsA 10. http://vimeo.com/12115778 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
It seems to be available on CD over here. I like Jacob Lindberg's recording especially as he has included one of the suites from the 1648 book which I play myself. I wish more people would play the earlier stuff. The only problem I find is that the recording sounds rather foggy. It's the same with some of his other recordings. Whether it is BIS or the fact that they were made several years ago I don't know. Yes - the sarabandes are rather slow but at least one of these forms part of the suite commemorating the death of Madame d'Orleans so you wouldn't expect it to go with a swing. I think things like this are debatable - and this is just my personal prejudice - but for various reasons I don't thing pieces work terribly well on the baroque guitar played at breakneck speed. For me on this recording it was the courantes which were most problematic. Because they are quite complex they don't work as well as e.g. the gigues which are basically in 2 parts. At least some sources advise chosing a speed which matches your ability - always very slow in my case. And not long ago I read quite a long article - in the Times I think - in which the writer suggested that the music wouldn't have been played at the kind of speeds which are adopted today - in part in least because players would not have developed the kind of technique necessary to achieve this. One interesting point which he made was that today a modern symphony orchestra would sight read a Haydn symphony perfectly whereas Haydn had to have several rehearsals before the players got it right because they were being asked to do things they had never done before. And nearer our own time the first performance of Boulez "Le marteau sans maitre" wasn't a success even after the players involved had had several rehearsals. Apparently William Christie asked Boulez if he would like to hear the piece played again as it was at the first performance and he said "No way - players today can do it much better!" And finally - the music in La guitarre royale is rather different from much baroque guitar music and I don't think it needs to be played with the sort of rhythmic precision which would be appropriate for De Visee. Monica - Original Message - From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 3:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta Rather exciting, in spite of the intimidating glower. Was this released as CD as well? It's only available on US Amazon as mp3 download. Personally, I also quite liked Lindberg's old recording on BIS, sampling a bit of the whole of Corbetta's published output. Best, Eugene - Original Message - From: Monica Hall Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 2:57 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta To: "Nelson, Jocelyn" Cc: Vihuelalist > Well - he may look scary but he plays like an angel. > > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Nelson, Jocelyn" > To: "Stuart Walsh" ; "Monica Hall" > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:02 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta > > > > : ) That is a scary looking picture, but I > enjoyed the little bit of > > samples that I heard. > > Jocelyn > > > ___> > > From: Stuart Walsh <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > > Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 12:15:44 -0400 > > To: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta > > Monica Hall wrote: > > >Don't know whether the rest of > you have already noticed this but > > Carpe > > >Diem have recently released a > beautiful recording of music from > > >Corbetta's 1671 Guitarre > royale played by Rosario Conte - the best > > >recording available now > Antonio Ligios recording is no longer > > >available. > > > > > > > > > > > >Monica > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > I just looked on Amazon UK. Is it called "Une > larme" with a rather > > fierce-looking chap on the CD cover who looks like > he's going to bash > > you over the head with his Baroque guitar? > > Stuart > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute- > admin/index.html> > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute- > arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com> 2. > file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute- > arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 4. > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > --
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
Monica Hall wrote: Don't know whether the rest of you have already noticed this but Carpe Diem have recently released a beautiful recording of music from Corbetta's 1671 Guitarre royale played by Rosario Conte - the best recording available now Antonio Ligios recording is no longer available. For some reason the first suite reminds me of a very old recording of Schaffer's on Baroque lute of a suite in G minor by Bittner. Someone said the recording is 'close' and you can hear fingers on strings - other than playing the notes! - and indeed the man himself breathing. (My wife thinks he looks like the actor, Patrick Stewart). He surely gets a very nice sound from the guitar and his brushing of chords is very delicate (some players are rather raspy) and lots of ornaments. The Prelude of this first suite is quite slow with familiar little phrases but Rosario gives his all. The Allemande has a little percussive sound at the beginning which happens at the repeat? Seems very well played to me. The Courante sounds fine to me too but I agree with others that the Sarabande is too slow. The Baroque lute can be played super slow (as it were) but I'm not sure this very slow tempo suits the guitar, or even this particular sarabande. A fine gigue (which is reminiscent of something else) and a swingless Passacaille to end. Stuart I am glad you seem to like it. Actually I have Claire Antonini's recording of French lute music and she plays a sarabande by Dufaut - first half of the 17th C very slowly. I think it is more a question of the repertoire than the date. So far no one has commented on the fact that he plays the Corbetta with octave stringing on the third course as well as the fourth (but not the fifth). Perhaps none of you had noticed but it is obvious right from the start of the G minor prelude if you are familiar with it. It's something which I play myself. The De Visee is with octave stringing just on the fourth course. I decided to forgive him that lapse of good taste. He looks a bit like one of my nephews actually. Having no hair seems fashionable these days and if you watch him on Youtube he seems to have grown some since then. I've just had to review it for Lute News. Pity I didn't ask you all for your views first! MOnica Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta
What a shame - I was really looking forward to it. This was going to be the year of the baroque guitar with your CD and Gordon's which also seems to be behind schedule. You must be feeling really depressd. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Rob MacKillop To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Stuart Walsh ; [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta If I may inappropriately gate crash this topic, while we are on the subject of baroque guitar CDs, some of you have been waiting patiently (far too patiently, for my liking) for my CD recorded in Feb 2009 for the French Alpha label. I am sad to report that I've just had an email saying it will be another year or so before it comes out. It is of Scottish music 1650-1730 for viola da gamba/lyra viol and baroque guitar. Alpha have been bought by another company, although they will still appear to the world as Alpha. They are 23 discs behind schedule...so far... Rob MacKillop -- References 1. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Valdambrini
Can anyone suggest an easy way of getting a copy of Valdambrini's books. Does anyone have a scan of it? I have a microfim and photocopy but don't want to have to scan it as it is a funny shape. Someone is asking about this. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Princess An's Lute Book
If anyone is still interested in this my article "Princess An's Lutebook and related English sources of music for the 5-course guitar" has now appeared in Consort - journal of the Dolmetsch Foundation, Vol. 66, Summer 2010. You can get copies of this via their website - [1]www.dolmetsch.com . I think you can get offprints of individual articles if you don't want the whole journal. Also I have added a lot more pieces to my Foscarini project - this now includes 60 pieces, most of them from books 3 & 4. This is on my page at [2]www.earlyguitar.ning.com Comments on the latter and suggestions for improvements very welcome. Hope to do the whole book in due course. As ever Monica -- References 1. http://www.dolmetsch.com/ 2. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Princess An's Lute Book
Yes - it is M4. If you look at the tablature you will see that that is correct - but I have forgotten to alter the letter underneath. The way Django works - you can put the chords in automatically and shift them up and down but the text underneath has to be corrected separately - hence plenty of chance to make mistakes. I will correct it. I think my version is slightly different from Lex's as I have made the bars add up properly - Fosco doesn't alway dot notes at cadences. It is a moot point whether this is intentional - but with Django and other tab programmes having bars of unequal measures creates problems. Also my version of bar 7 is slightly different because the auxiliary notes does always come before the stroke that applies to it and not after it so chord C should be played first and then the auxiliary note. Anyway - if you spot any more errors let me know. Once you start doing these things you begin to understand why Fosco and others made a mess of things! And they didn't have computers! As ever Monica. - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:24 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Princess An's Lute Book Monica Hall wrote: If anyone is still interested in this my article "Princess An's Lutebook and related English sources of music for the 5-course guitar" has now appeared in Also I have added a lot more pieces to my Foscarini project - this now includes 60 pieces, most of them from books 3 & 4. This is on my page at [2]www.earlyguitar.ning.com Comments on the latter and suggestions for improvements very welcome. Nice to have versions of the 'lute-style' pieces in E minor (pp28-31). Your page 37: Gagliarda la Passionata. I really like Lex's playing of this piece. Anyway, should bar 2 be M4? For me, the only 'issue' with this piece is bar 6-7 with chords moving in crotchets (all other crotchets are single notes). I suppose it just need lots of practice! Stuart Hope to do the whole book in due course. As ever Monica -- References 1. http://www.dolmetsch.com/ 2. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini: Capriccio
Very nice - Stuart. What about the second half now? Fosco's Passacalles and Ciaconas work really well. It's interesting that he is the first person to have included a series of these things in different keys - although not a complete cycle. Also they are sort of longer re-working of some of the pieces in Book 3. On another topic altogether I wonder how many people have seen the latest number of Hispanica Lyra - the journal of the Spanish vihuela society. It has a very interesting reproduction of an angel playing the vihuela. The instrument appears to have 7 single strings (probably meant to be double). Three of these are red and four black. The angel is playing left handed, probably to balence the picture. He/She is on the left hand side of the Virgin and Child. In the description it is suggested that the red strings are the treble ones and the black ones the bass but I think it may be the other way round. It is just the angel who is left-handed, not the instrument. I could scan it to my ning page if anyone is interested. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 2:14 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini: Capriccio Here's one of Monica's transcriptions/reconstructions of Foscarini. Decently played on a decent instrument, I'm sure it would make an attractive, calm, easy-going amble. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AasnlO4d9c Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini: Capriccio
I have scanned although unfortunately it is not very clear. If you enlarge it the red strings look white and the black ones grey. It is at www.earlyguitar.ning.com Monica - Original Message - From: "jelmaa" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini: Capriccio Hello Monica I'd be interested to see that picture! Thanks & greetings from Amsterdam, Jelma van Amersfoort On Jul 3, 2010, at 5:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Very nice - Stuart. What about the second half now? Fosco's Passacalles and Ciaconas work really well. It's interesting that he is the first person to have included a series of these things in different keys - although not a complete cycle. Also they are sort of longer re-working of some of the pieces in Book 3. On another topic altogether I wonder how many people have seen the latest number of Hispanica Lyra - the journal of the Spanish vihuela society. It has a very interesting reproduction of an angel playing the vihuela. The instrument appears to have 7 single strings (probably meant to be double). Three of these are red and four black. The angel is playing left handed, probably to balence the picture. He/She is on the left hand side of the Virgin and Child. In the description it is suggested that the red strings are the treble ones and the black ones the bass but I think it may be the other way round. It is just the angel who is left-handed, not the instrument. I could scan it to my ning page if anyone is interested. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 2:14 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini: Capriccio Here's one of Monica's transcriptions/reconstructions of Foscarini. Decently played on a decent instrument, I'm sure it would make an attractive, calm, easy-going amble. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AasnlO4d9c Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: antiqua (guatemala) vihuela manuscript
Well folks believe it or not... I have what appears to be a study of this manuscript in Spanish which someone - I think an Internet friend in Spain - sent me some time ago. I have never got around to reading it but a quick look now suggests that it is about the 5-course guitar - including setting out the chords according to Amat's system. And why not? The vihuela deosn't have to be a vihuela. I could if anyone wants to look at it try posting it on my ning page. Regards to all Monica - Original Message - From: "Taco Walstra" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 10:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] antiqua (guatemala) vihuela manuscript Dear all, A few weeks ago I happened to be in Antiqua in Quatemala. They have a tiny museum containing old manuscrips and books which were printed in 16th and 17th century in quatemala. Among the books shown there were 4 books containing music and one manuscript where the description mentioned that it was about vihuela tuning. 23 pages following were to contain religious music. Of course it would have been nice if this manuscript contains vihuela tablature, but the museum description didn't mention this, although it looks like that the music was intended to be played on vihuela. Unfortunately there was nobody available to provide more information. I made 2 pictures of the pages and will put them on a website this week. Anybody more info about this book? Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: antiqua (guatemala) vihuela manuscript
There are some elaborate tuning instructions - which among other things suggest that bourdons on the lower courses were optional - and this is a Spanish source. They also freely mix unisons and octaves with gay abandon. - Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" To: "Vihuelalist" ; "Monica Hall" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 5:43 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: antiqua (guatemala) vihuela manuscript "The vihuela doesn't have to be a vihuela ... " - 'yep. the manuscript sounds interesting - i assume the precise tuning isn't mentioned but if you would please post a visual of how the chords are set out, according to Amat's system, that would be great. regards - bill http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=billkilpatrick --- On Mon, 19/7/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: antiqua (guatemala) vihuela manuscript To: "Taco Walstra" Cc: "Lutelist" , "Vihuelalist" Date: Monday, 19 July, 2010, 14:52 Well folks believe it or not... I have what appears to be a study of this manuscript in Spanish which someone - I think an Internet friend in Spain - sent me some time ago. I have never got around to reading it but a quick look now suggests that it is about the 5-course guitar - including setting out the chords according to Amat's system. And why not? The vihuela deosn't have to be a vihuela. I could if anyone wants to look at it try posting it on my ning page. Regards to all Monica - Original Message - From: "Taco Walstra" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 10:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] antiqua (guatemala) vihuela manuscript > Dear all, > A few weeks ago I happened to be in Antiqua in Quatemala. They have a tiny museum containing old manuscrips and books which were printed in 16th and 17th century in quatemala. Among the books shown there were 4 books containing music and one manuscript where the description mentioned that it was about vihuela tuning. 23 pages following were to contain religious music. Of course it would have been nice if this manuscript contains vihuela tablature, but the museum description didn't mention this, although it looks like that the music was intended to be played on vihuela. Unfortunately there was nobody available to provide more information. I made 2 pictures of the pages and will put them on a website this week. Anybody more info about this book? > Taco > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 4-course guitar videos
Hi Jocelyn All beautifully played.I'm looking forward to hearing a whole CDs worth. Best Monica - Original Message - From: "Nelson, Jocelyn" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 5:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] 4-course guitar videos Dear list, My university recently posted a series of videos on You Tube. If you follow this link, you'll see that I have three up there with 4-course renaissance guitar, including "La seraphine." [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/ECU#g/c/69CB3D225AB4DC20 I'm glad to finally post something list members might enjoy, because I've enjoyed so many videos others on this list have posted. Best, Jocelyn -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax [2]nels...@ecu.edu -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/ECU#g/c/69CB3D225AB4DC20 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Foscarini
For Foscarini addicts - I've added a few more pieces to my magnum opus on [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com There are now 71. Comments and corrections very welcome - especially about the rhythm of some of the pieces..although I am planning to have a break for the summer or what's left of it. Monica -- References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Yes - this is a bit of a vexed question. I suspect that in the 16th/17th century players did create their own versions and elaborations - especially when many of the pieces are very short and last less than a minute. The problem today perhaps is that not all players are inspired enough to do this well. Monica - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > Also look into: > > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart > Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. > Disques > Pierre Verany. > > Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para > Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. > > The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The > latter two > features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar > solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent > effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley > indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a > little. > > Best, > Eugene > > > >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >> Behalf Of Laura Maschi >> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM >> To: Bruno Correia >> Cc: List LUTELIST >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar >> >> Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around >> 2008... >> >> >> Enviado desde mi iPod >> >> El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia >> escribió: >> >> >>> I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his >>> own >>> instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially >>> after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. >>> >>> >>> >>> [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> > > > > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound" improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > > > Also look into: > > > > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > > > > Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds > a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who > didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, > folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's > trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of > actually taking the trouble to edit them out. > > > Stuart > > > > > > Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques > > Pierre Verany. > > > > Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras > Para > > Vihuela. Auvidis/Astree. > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values are on the stave with tails up and down. Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some of the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed. Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly don't give us the whole picture! Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros. There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms.I haven't seen the Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists. The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standard alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed. But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument, more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..". I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Monica Hall wrote: You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen these tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up? It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS - which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apart from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have been the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! Stuart One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values are on the stave with tails up and down. Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some of the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed. Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly don't give us the whole picture! Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renai
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
That's helpful. The tablature just doesn't tell everything. We have to use our imagination sometimes. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martin Shepherd" To: Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 4:21 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Hi Monica and All, Newsidler is pretty definite - "mit durch streichen" and (I think) even specifies using the thumb. Similar six-note chords appear in Dalza as well, in contexts where there is no doubt that strumming is intended. Nothing to do with strumming, but there was some mention earlier on this thread of fine recordings of music for 4c guitar, so I'd just like to remind everyone that you can hear splendid performances of all Mudarra's music for 4c guitar on the CD by Jacob Heringman and Catherine King (Gaudeamus - but I guess the CD may be out of print - is it on Magnatune? Worth a look). Martin Monica Hall wrote: There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros. There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms.I haven't seen the Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists. The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standard alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed. But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument, more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..". I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Monica Hall wrote: You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen these tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up? It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS - which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apart from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have been the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! Stuart One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn&#
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Yes - that sums it up nicely. And as far as the 6/4 chords are concerned - strumming them does effectively eliminate the odd effect of the 4th between the two lowest parts. There are other chords which are also 6/4s as with the 5-course instrument. In fact they are the same old chords without the 5th course. This G major chord is actually the original form of Chord A in alfabeto with three open courses. This is how it is in the Cancionero Bezon and Montesardo - 2nd, 3rd and 4th courses open, 1st course stopped at the 3rd fret and the additional 5th course stopped at the 2nd fret. Later books have the 2nd course stopped at the 3rd fret. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" To: "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 4:49 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar This is very good and lively discussion! I have just a few things to add. First, we do have a strong indication that the 4-course guitar *was* strummed, at least in Spain by 1611. Sebastian de Covarrubias Horozco's "Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española" has an article on the guitar, which he defines as have 5 or 4 courses. His article on the "Vigüela" laments its decline in favor of the guitar with the famous quote: ". . . ahora la guitarra no es más que un cencerro, tan fácil de tañer, especialmente en lo rasgado, que no hay mozo de caballos que no sea músico de guitarra." (. . . now the guitar is no more than a cowbell, so easy to play, especially when strummed, that there is hardly a stable boy who is not a guitar player.) I cannot find any strumming indications in Phalèse 1570. However, repeated 4-note chords in some chanson intabulations strongly suggest that technique. The "Braye Ms.", now called the "Osborn Ms." or "Osborn Collection Commonplace-book" (c. 1560) is discussed and transcribed in John M. Ward, "Sprightly & Cheerful Musick: Notes on the cittern, gittern, and guitar in 16th- and 17th-century England", Lute Society Journal XXI, 1979-81. The "article" takes up the entire book, and I believe it is still available from The Lute Society. A fascinating read! In the Osborn Ms. there are several pieces comprised mostly or entirely of repeated chords. (See, for example, "20. The [?Fantaze], Ward, p. 128.) Ward believes that these passages were to be strummed, and it seems to me entirely impossible to interpret them othewise. Finally a personal suggestion: If the 4-course guitar is tuned to E, many pieces are in G with an inherent problem with the final chord: The open low D string on the 4th course produces a 6-4 chord when plucked, with the 5th sounding prominently below the key note G (which "should" be in the bass). Possibly, people didn't care, or there was a popular undocumented solution. I believe that a good solution for these and other chords with the same basic problem is simply to strum the chord (perhaps with the thumb). Effectively, the voicing of the chord is thereby obscured (and with it the transgression of the harmony/counterpoint rule). Michael michael.f...@notesinc.com There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros. There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms.I haven't seen the Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists. The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standard alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed. But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument, more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..". I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way. Monica - Original Message -
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
For starters Foscarini does not claim to be the first person to have combined tablature with alfabeto or to have written pieces in mixed style. The point made by myself and others is that his is the first surviving printed book to include music of this kind. There is at least one Italian ms. - I:Bc Ms. V.280 - dated 1614 in which guitar music is written out in tablature on 5-lines and although the chords are apparently intended to be strummed because there are stroke marks beneath them some of the chords are almost certainly intended to consist of fewer than 5-courses.There are also some obscure passages in the alfabeto pieces where figures seem to be used to indicate short passages in two parts. There is no evidence that strumming emerged only at the end of the 16th century. What did happen at the end of the century is that the 5th course was added to the guitar - or at least became more common. These things never happen overnight and are seldom the invention of an individual. Notation evolves as musical styles change and always lags behind. (The very first essay I had to write at Uni was on this subject!) Returning to the 4-course books, as I originally pointed out these are printed using the same font of type as the lute books published by Leroy & Co. At least one of them includes music for cittern printed in the same way although - since the cittern is played with a plectrum the chords must have been strummed. The font of type probably didn't include any means of indicate elaborate right-hand technique. Since the lute (I believe) was also originally played with a plectrum it's hard to believe that chords were not occasionally strummed even if there is no indication of this. Many of the 4-part chords in these books are the standard alfabeto chords minus the 5th course. Les Bouffons is a classic example since it is based on a standard chord sequence - I IV I V I IV I V I and the chords in alfabeto are A B A C A B A C A i.e. Gm Cm Gm Dm Gm Cm Gm Dm Gm They didn't suddenly start strumming them when they added the 5th course. My fingers don't end up miles away from the strings when strumming and I have no difficulty in playing pieces in mixed style - and I'm only an amateur! Leaving out the first course is standard practice - De Visee and others even puts in dots to indicate the ones to be left out. It is also standard practice to strum the inner three courses on the 5-course guitar. When playing the baroque guitar you should not play close to the bridge at all. That is a lute thing This is what Santiago de Murcia says- "The usual method of all beginners is to place the little finger beside the bridge of the guitar, so as to steady the hand, because many are unable to strike the strings with the hand free, but only in the aforesaid manner. This [manner of playing] will not be seen used by any expert who plays this instrument with any skill, especially if the works being played are delicate with strummed chords because these must be played in the middle of the instrument. The hand should only be placed on the bridge when it is necessary to play loudly, as when accompanying another instrument." You shouldn't be playing the guitar as if it were a lute. That will have to do for now - but Please, Please, Stuart when you reply to messages can you put your reply at the top. As far as I am aware this is standard "netiquette" or what you will - practice. Otherwise the messages are a complete muddle!! Monica . - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:11 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming Here's 'Les Buffons' as in the Phalèse edition of 1570 and in Geisbert's 1969 trancription. Giesbert has added fingering and strumming symbols that are not in the original. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg Now some people, like (I hope I'm right in this) Monica and Martyn think that a piece like this (and many others) might - or even would - have been strummed. Whenever I have had a run through of this repertoire - and pieces like this - I've never thought of strumming as first option but something that might just be added in places. Martin Shepherd pointed out some examples of strumming in the lute music of the time but it would seem to be fair to say that out of the thousands of lute pieces from this time when the lute was the pre-eminent instrument, strumming occupies only a minute fragment. So strumming was not a typical or common practice on the lute, it would seem.Strumming block chords on guitars (on all strings) emerged at the end of the 16th century (of course, correct me on this if I'm wrong!) but playing this version of Les Bouffons with strumming would involve the mixed strumming and plucking style that Foscarini claimed to have invented in the 17th century. I play
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and then
the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I will try to reply to this message point by point..
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged only at
the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say: how
could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With the
development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th century,
strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is notated - it's what
the guitar is all about at this time.
In the 1960s it became very popular to play the guitar and lots of little
"hold down a chord" tutors appeared for players who suddenly wanted to do
just that! This doesn't indicate that no one had played the guitar
previously or had strummed accompaniments to popular songs. It was a
sudden craze - and indeed different ways of indicating the chords without
staff notation were devised or re-surfaced from earlier times.
There is a rather similar situation at the end of the 16th century
particularly in Italy - where the guitar may have been less popular than
Spain or even France - and suddenly became popular with the development of
solo accompanied song.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small (Gerard
Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?).
The operative word is "existing". All of these French books
(with the exception of Phalese - which consists largely of pieces taken from
the earlier books) date from the 1550s. I don't think we should assume
that no-one had played the guitar before then or that they stopped doing so
in 1560
Most of the Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the vihuela
repertoire.Not obviously strum material.
That is true but Mudarra does includes a version of the romanesca which is
based a regular chord sequence which points towards a popular tradition -
these grounds existed long before the 5-course guitar came on the scene.
The vihuela books are intended for serious musicians rather than
dilettantes. And there are only 7 of them..
The Leroy books in France have
fantasies, settings of chansons, dances with elaborate divisions, and
there is no textual evidence for strumming nor little place for it. The
fourth book of Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies, psalms and
lengthy chanson settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine the setting of La
Guerre without strums (presumably the setting here, rather than the Pavane
and Galliarde de la guerre set by Leroy) and it would certainly be a
striking effect in this one piece - but is there anywhere else in that
Book (Book 4) where strumming strongly suggest itself? Obviously, if you
have some sort of prior commitment to the intrinsic strumminess of the
guitar you can invent where it might be. I only have some pieces from the
Gorlier books - but again there are sober duos and some religious things
as well as dances and the dances written out for fingerstyle play, not
chords. I think you could play much (most?) of the existing repertoire
without even having to consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming.
(The Braye/Osborne MS is one
small exception, of course)
This may be an exception but it doesn't indicate that it is less typical.
This is more a question of what happens to get published and what happens to
survive - accidents of preservation..
I don't seem to have received this message from Jocelyn but I'm glad she
seems to agree that strumming is sometimes appropriate.
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2 and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the possibility
that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and are solos (as
they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no need to add strumming -
which isn't there. Or, if sung, get the singer to shut up a bit!
I an afraid Jonathan Le Cocq's article is largely nonsense and I am not sure
whether the Lute Society would have published it if they had realized this.
You should read Veronica K Laforge's response in Lute 1998. The fact that
the voice part is included in the guitar doesn't rule out the possibility
that it might be sung. There is no golden rule that the instrument must
not double the voice, or vice versa (what about the hymns we sing in church)
Some of the vihuela books do include various instructions about this. If
you
are accompanying yourself it might be quite helpful to include the voice
part when playing.
Even if the arrangements of these songs are intended for instrumental
performance only there is no reason to suppose that singers didn't work out
their own accompaniments to them.
References to the cittern of the time don't seem to me to be relevant at
all (unless we are talking about fingerstyle pla
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
I might not strum even if it were possible - however to automatically
link strumming with jocund play and plain plucking for sombre/sober
music is selling the guitar short (there are strums in 17thC
tombeaux) - so I might.
I'll second that! Think of De Visee not to mention Corbetta...there is
nothing trivial about their music.
Finally, I've just been playing through Bartolotti's second book and am
again struck not only by the originality and beauty of this music but
by the way he uses many different types of play in the same piece:
strummed chords - full, partial and inner: plucked chords - ditto;
arpeggios, single notes etc in a very fluent manner. I see no reason to
suppose earlier guitarists were incapable of playing in a similar
manner - allbeit with less virtuosity.
Hear! hear! or is it Here! here! Even in book 1 Bartolotti is a master
of different right-hand techniques. That is his hallmark.
Monica
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 3/8/10, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Tuesday, 3 August, 2010, 10:41
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and
then the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged only
at the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say:
how could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With
the development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th
century, strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is notated
- it's what the guitar is all about at this time.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small
(Gerard Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?).
Most of the Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the vihuela
repertoire.Not obviously strum material. The Leroy books in France
have fantasies, settings of chansons, dances with elaborate divisions,
and there is no textual evidence for strumming nor little place for it.
The fourth book of Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies,
psalms and lengthy chanson settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine the
setting of La Guerre without strums (presumably the setting here,
rather than the Pavane and Galliarde de la guerre set by Leroy) and it
would certainly be a striking effect in this one piece - but is there
anywhere else in that Book (Book 4) where strumming strongly suggest
itself? Obviously, if you have some sort of prior commitment to the
intrinsic strumminess of the guitar you can invent where it might be. I
only have some pieces from the Gorlier books - but again there are
sober duos and some religious things as well as dances and the dances
written out for fingerstyle play, not chords. I think you could play
much (most?) of the existing repertoire without even having to
consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming. (The Braye/Osborne
MS is one small exception, of course)
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2 and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the
possibility that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and
are solos (as they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no need to
add strumming - which isn't there. Or, if sung, get the singer to shut
up a bit!
References to the cittern of the time don't seem to me to be relevant
at all (unless we are talking about fingerstyle play, which presumably
we are not). When played with a plectrum it is not a matter of choice:
to play a chord you have to move the plectrum over the strings (strum)
. On a guitar you can pluck (in different ways) OR strum.
Martyn suggest that strumming disguises the sound of some chord
inversions - but there are many places where you can't strum and just
have to live with the sound of the rootless chord anyway. (There are
examples of this even in the 18th century on the English guitar where
pieces in F major will end on a chord with the bottom note A, even when
it would be possible to play F below it).
But underlying it all seems to be some kind of commitment to the
instrinsic strumminess of the guitar ('intrinsically natural',
'idiomatic' as Jocelyn puts it). Well strumming is certainly the thing
of the 17th century guitar. But later? Merchi et al? Or the thousands
of pieces from the 19th century?
Flamenco and modern popular guitar uses strums but that doesn't make
strumming ancient and the 16th century four-course guitar repertoire,
as it exists, doesn't seem to exhibit any necessity for strummin
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
A postscript to my previous message...
Phalese has not included the voice part separately in his edition probably
because this was in mensural notation and he had no means of printing it and
didn't think it was worth his while financially anyway. If he wasn't going
to include the mensural notation there wouldn't be any point his including
the words either. It is a cheap plagiarized reprint.
The book is a reprint of the earlier books and I don't think one can assume
that he had any more insight into how the music should be played than the
editors of the original books.
It is very important to understand how these things were produced when
evalutaing the contents - somthing which is often overlooked today.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart Walsh"
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and then
the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged only at
the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say: how
could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With the
development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th century,
strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is notated - it's what
the guitar is all about at this time.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small (Gerard
Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?). Most of the
Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the vihuela repertoire.Not
obviously strum material. The Leroy books in France have fantasies,
settings of chansons, dances with elaborate divisions, and there is no
textual evidence for strumming nor little place for it. The fourth book of
Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies, psalms and lengthy chanson
settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine the setting of La Guerre without
strums (presumably the setting here, rather than the Pavane and Galliarde
de la guerre set by Leroy) and it would certainly be a striking effect in
this one piece - but is there anywhere else in that Book (Book 4) where
strumming strongly suggest itself? Obviously, if you have some sort of
prior commitment to the intrinsic strumminess of the guitar you can invent
where it might be. I only have some pieces from the Gorlier books - but
again there are sober duos and some religious things as well as dances and
the dances written out for fingerstyle play, not chords. I think you
could play much (most?) of the existing repertoire without even having to
consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming. (The Braye/Osborne MS
is one small exception, of course)
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2 and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the possibility
that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and are solos (as
they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no need to add strumming -
which isn't there. Or, if sung, get the singer to shut up a bit!
References to the cittern of the time don't seem to me to be relevant at
all (unless we are talking about fingerstyle play, which presumably we are
not). When played with a plectrum it is not a matter of choice: to play a
chord you have to move the plectrum over the strings (strum) . On a guitar
you can pluck (in different ways) OR strum.
Martyn suggest that strumming disguises the sound of some chord
inversions - but there are many places where you can't strum and just have
to live with the sound of the rootless chord anyway. (There are examples
of this even in the 18th century on the English guitar where pieces in F
major will end on a chord with the bottom note A, even when it would be
possible to play F below it).
But underlying it all seems to be some kind of commitment to the
instrinsic strumminess of the guitar ('intrinsically natural', 'idiomatic'
as Jocelyn puts it). Well strumming is certainly the thing of the 17th
century guitar. But later? Merchi et al? Or the thousands of pieces from
the 19th century?
Flamenco and modern popular guitar uses strums but that doesn't make
strumming ancient and the 16th century four-course guitar repertoire, as
it exists, doesn't seem to exhibit any necessity for strumming except for
a bit of colour, here and there (La Guerre, Les Bouffons). The guitar can
'do' strumming but it isn't obliged to, as it were.
Monica says that I'm adopting a lutecentric (I just made that word up)
view of the four-course guitar. But on the evidence of most of the
repertoire, the little guitar does s
[VIHUELA] Chantres grenadins
I think most people on this list are familiar with the drawings of Daniel Rabel - in particular the one called Chantres grenadins. But does anyone know which library or whatever has a copy of these. I am assuming that it is a manuscript. Cheers Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chantres grenadins
Many thanks Michael - very helpful. Monica - Original Message - From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" To: "'Monica Hall'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 8:55 PM Subject: RE: [VIHUELA] Chantres grenadins Chantres grenadins appears to be in the Louvre. Here is a link to a listing: http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=RETROUVER&NUMBER =1&GRP=0&USRNAME=nobody&USRPWD=4%24%2534P&SPEC=9&SYN=1&IMLY=&DOM=All&REQ=%28 %28%27INV+32643%2C+recto%27%29+%3AINV+%29 Michael Michael Fink michael.f...@notesinc.com -Original Message----- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:38 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Chantres grenadins I think most people on this list are familiar with the drawings of Daniel Rabel - in particular the one called Chantres grenadins. But does anyone know which library or whatever has a copy of these. I am assuming that it is a manuscript. Cheers Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini
Yes - I was a bit surprised by the title. I wonder if it was a misprint for la favorita which is the subtitle of the Zarabanda. But it is one of the pieces which is probably an arrangement of a lute piece. Sounds quite nice played with a bourdon on the 5th course! How about doing the rest of the suite? The preludio and alemanda gave me quite a few headaches. I have nearly finished Book 5 but at the moment I am working on the scordatura pieces. Had enough spare time to re-tune my guitar and the Django programme. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 2:17 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini Great title, though a bit surprisingly it's in F major. This is one of Monica's interpretations of Foscarini's puzzling tablatures. I've changed the last bit of the first section and bars 30/31 and bar 33. (Also, I'm an amateur trying to squeeze every bit of sound out of a guitar which hardly has any). It's by Foscarini - so it's got 'issues'.It's a Corrente - so flowing? It's got a descriptive title - funereally flowing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zud0X76iSA The Foscarini solos are on Monica's page: http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/MonicaHall Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini
In case you are wondering - in deference to Stuart I have put my message at the end. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Corrente detta la Funebre by Foscarini Monica Hall wrote: Yes - I was a bit surprised by the title. I wonder if it was a misprint for la favorita which is the subtitle of the Zarabanda. That would be an amazing Freudian slip to mean to engrave favorita and instead end up with funebre! But it is one of the pieces which is probably an arrangement of a lute piece. Sounds quite nice played with a bourdon on the 5th course! How about doing the rest of the suite? The preludio and alemanda gave me quite a few headaches. I have nearly finished Book 5 but at the moment I am working on the scordatura pieces. Had enough spare time to re-tune my guitar and the Django programme. I found this scordatura tuning very refreshing (and fresh sounding - especially the chords) when I had a go at the pieces in it, a while ago. I seem to remember you saying that you found it rather depressing. It's a sort of G major tuning without the low G. I once thought that there just might be a connection between this tuning and the tuning for the Russian guitar which emerged around 1800 (OK - 160 years later). Then you pointed to well over 30 other tunings for the Baroque guitar! Quite independently of Lex, I found three pieces in the scordatura section that are reasonably coherent without too much intervention. But the other pieces are much more problematic, I think. I felt that Fosco had found some things that he liked in that tuning and was beginning to repeat himself in the scordatura section (it's like a microcosm of the work as a whole). Nevertheless the Toccata, Corrente and Sarabanda are great little pieces (most of all the Sarabanda). Stuart I think the music sounds rather sinister - if not funebre - especially the sarabande. I have done this and the allemande and am working on the Passemezzo. The latter has a lot in common with other pieces in the book. The same arranged for a different tuning. I wonder if they did in fact re-string for scordatura or use a different instrument. Gerard Rebours has mentioned this in a article he wrote some time ago. When violinists today do Biber's Rosary sonatas they seem to use about 3 instrument. I find it takes a day or two for my guitar to settle to the new tuning - and then a couple of days to get back to normal. It's not something I find I can swop backwards and forward with. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corrente by Foscarini and scordatura
I'm intrigued that you find this tuning 'sinister'. I had a go at playing three of the scordatura pieces a couple of years ago and I found this tuning almost intoxicating. I've dug out a rough old video and uploaded it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6tjQfcvqbQ Thanks for that - very interesting to hear someone else play them. What I find unsatisfactory about the pieces is the octave doubling. But also tuning the first course down a tone with gut strings - assuming that these sound best at near to breaking point - alters the tone quality not for the better because the string is too slack. I think the tablature tuning grids in Italian books may be a bit misleading in this respect - all they are supposed to is to indicate the altered interval pattern. It would be better to tune down from the first course - as in the Gallot manuscript or from the third course as in Santa Cruz and the French books, although that wouldn't make any difference to Fosco.. I played through the scordatura pieces in Corbetta's 1643 book recently - which uses a different scordatura in quite a different way and thought them attractive. The Sarabanda is the really strange one.Lex has written about it in the latest edition of 'The Lute' (as you know). It's very chordal but completely free of alfabeto and the usual chord shapes and sounds which have been familiar for centuries. Actually it generates its own chord shapes with which you quickly become familiar - and in that respect the pieces are easier to play than Corbetta. But the harmonic language which results is more limited than with standard tuning. I would argue that there are at least some misprints - e.g. in the alemanda - the second 5-part chord should be played with a barre at the 2nd fret. It is easy to get muddled with changes of tuning. I don't want to get bogged down with harmonic analysis but at the end of the sarabanda if the fifth course is omitted from the penultimate chord it is a chord of the dominant 13th with a 4-3 suspension F# B C# D F# A# C# D B F# B B D According to my harmony book - the 13th was originally an appoggiatura of the 5th of the chord (C# in this instance) but my harmony book also says that "It is obvious that the 5th of the chord cannot accompany the 13th". But Mr. Kitson had probably never encountered Foscarini or the baroque guitar. Whether Fosco has included the open 5th course as well because it is easier to play or whether it is a misprint - well that's another story. Lex sees it as French and slow and sultry. I - and I'm just an amateur floundering about in these waters - had been reading about the sarabanda as a dance that had been banned in some places because it was so lewd! I thought it was quite fast. (But, I suppose, a dance can danced sexually either slow or fast). I think this business about the sarabande being lewd is a bit overdone. There is in fact a difference between the Spanish zarabanda - which features hemiola and sarabande and zarabanda francese in Italian books. Hard and fast rules are not very helpful. Also it is a matter of "What's in a name". Granata has called the same piece Pasacaglia. With all due respects to both of you who have recorded the piece - I think you have both got it wrong. Stuart plays it much too fast so that the harmonic effects are blurred and it is certainly not easy to play at that speed. But Lex plays it too slowly which makes it sound like a funeral dirge and emphasises the sinister quality. I am all for a happy medium. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Corrente by Foscarini and scordatura
Afterthought on Fosco's scordatura. If you tune down from the first course e' - the pieces will be in C# minor rather than B minor. B minor is not a difficult key to play in of the baroque. guitar - but C sharp is not so easy. Has anyone tried plahing it a a higher pitch? Monica - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 2:33 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Corrente by Foscarini and scordatura I'm intrigued that you find this tuning 'sinister'. I had a go at playing three of the scordatura pieces a couple of years ago and I found this tuning almost intoxicating. I've dug out a rough old video and uploaded it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6tjQfcvqbQ Thanks for that - very interesting to hear someone else play them. What I find unsatisfactory about the pieces is the octave doubling. But also tuning the first course down a tone with gut strings - assuming that these sound best at near to breaking point - alters the tone quality not for the better because the string is too slack. I think the tablature tuning grids in Italian books may be a bit misleading in this respect - all they are supposed to is to indicate the altered interval pattern. It would be better to tune down from the first course - as in the Gallot manuscript or from the third course as in Santa Cruz and the French books, although that wouldn't make any difference to Fosco.. I played through the scordatura pieces in Corbetta's 1643 book recently - which uses a different scordatura in quite a different way and thought them attractive. The Sarabanda is the really strange one.Lex has written about it in the latest edition of 'The Lute' (as you know). It's very chordal but completely free of alfabeto and the usual chord shapes and sounds which have been familiar for centuries. Actually it generates its own chord shapes with which you quickly become familiar - and in that respect the pieces are easier to play than Corbetta. But the harmonic language which results is more limited than with standard tuning. I would argue that there are at least some misprints - e.g. in the alemanda - the second 5-part chord should be played with a barre at the 2nd fret. It is easy to get muddled with changes of tuning. I don't want to get bogged down with harmonic analysis but at the end of the sarabanda if the fifth course is omitted from the penultimate chord it is a chord of the dominant 13th with a 4-3 suspension F# B C# D F# A# C# D B F# B B D According to my harmony book - the 13th was originally an appoggiatura of the 5th of the chord (C# in this instance) but my harmony book also says that "It is obvious that the 5th of the chord cannot accompany the 13th". But Mr. Kitson had probably never encountered Foscarini or the baroque guitar. Whether Fosco has included the open 5th course as well because it is easier to play or whether it is a misprint - well that's another story. Lex sees it as French and slow and sultry. I - and I'm just an amateur floundering about in these waters - had been reading about the sarabanda as a dance that had been banned in some places because it was so lewd! I thought it was quite fast. (But, I suppose, a dance can danced sexually either slow or fast). I think this business about the sarabande being lewd is a bit overdone. There is in fact a difference between the Spanish zarabanda - which features hemiola and sarabande and zarabanda francese in Italian books. Hard and fast rules are not very helpful. Also it is a matter of "What's in a name". Granata has called the same piece Pasacaglia. With all due respects to both of you who have recorded the piece - I think you have both got it wrong. Stuart plays it much too fast so that the harmonic effects are blurred and it is certainly not easy to play at that speed. But Lex plays it too slowly which makes it sound like a funeral dirge and emphasises the sinister quality. I am all for a happy medium. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Il Fronimo
I wonder whether anyone on this list has copies or knows where there are copies of the Italian periodical Il Fronimo. I am trying to get hold of an article about Roncalli - which was in No. 126, April 2004. It's by Mario Dell'Ara and Giacomo Parimbelli and has the title "Ludovico Roncalli l'abate chitarrista - Aggiornamento biografico". The British Library has the periodical but this issue is missing - perhaps someone pinched it and I haven't been able to trace another library in the UK which takes it. Cheers Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Well - there are definitely bourdons on both the 4th and 5th courses. Whether you need them or not is another matter. Monica - Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:53 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Yes, there is a little campanella near the end. I don't think there is a bourdon (if there is I can't hear it); and it's not really necessary for the music. Alexander On 24/08/2010 18:32, Stuart Walsh wrote: It's great to see these pieces being played. In the past I've struggled - without much success - with the Em Prelude and Allemande. (Is there an extra little campanella just near the end of the Prelude?) I should be able to hear, but does the fifth have a bourdon? It's always extremely interesting to see a professional perform a piece as well as play the music. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on BBC Radio 3 tomorrow
Oh - and I wont be at home to hear it. Tell me what it is like if you listen. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini on BBC Radio 3 tomorrow Radio 3's Lunchtime Concert tomorrow is from (or a recording from) the Edinburgh Festival. It's a concert by 'Private Musicke' with singer Magdalena Kozena. There are songs and also in there, is Sanz and (surprise, surprise,) Canarios but also a Ciaccona by Foscarini and some other guitar items. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the "French" tuning. Much better in every way. Monica - Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:56 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt I'm fine about the 4th but I never missed one on the 5th in Bartolotti's second book (that's perhaps why I don't hear it ...), quite the opposite in fact. Anyway, what's your rationale for having a bourdon on the 5th course in this music? Alexander On 24/08/2010 19:47, Monica Hall wrote: Well - there are definitely bourdons on both the 4th and 5th courses. Whether you need them or not is another matter. Monica - Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:53 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Yes, there is a little campanella near the end. I don't think there is a bourdon (if there is I can't hear it); and it's not really necessary for the music. Alexander On 24/08/2010 18:32, Stuart Walsh wrote: It's great to see these pieces being played. In the past I've struggled - without much success - with the Em Prelude and Allemande. (Is there an extra little campanella just near the end of the Prelude?) I should be able to hear, but does the fifth have a bourdon? It's always extremely interesting to see a professional perform a piece as well as play the music. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
So am I! Monica - Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:51 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt OK, I'm glad we agree on this. Alexander On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the "French" tuning. Much better in every way. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
- Original Message - From: "WALSH STUART" To: "Alexander Batov" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt On 24 August 2010 21:52, Alexander Batov <[1]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com> wrote: OK, I'm glad we agree on this. Alexander On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the "French" tuning. Much better in every way. Monica I'd be fascinated to hear both versions! The campanellas on these videos sound great with the low bourdons - or rather, with skilful avoidance of them (when necessary, as in campanellas). And their presence is very subtle. Alexander didn't even hear the low fifth. I know Monica and Lex have disputed these matters at length. This is obviously very sophisticated music. If (if) there is not sufficient evidence for either approach, and if it comes down to preference, then I think I'd rather go for bourdons. But it would be really interesting to hear one piece side by side with and without a bourdon on the fifth. Stuart Well - that's what I was able to do as I have the CD. I think the quality of the recording of the CD is better than in the video - which is of a live performance and presumably unedited. But the point is that in the video he is trying to leave out the bourdons most of the time and to my ears this results in the campanellas sounding tentative and uneven - they don't ring out and overlap creating a bell-like effect. The idea that the skips of a 7th etc must be eliminated so that all you have is a rather feeble scale passage which would sound better played in a conventional way is misguided. That's not what happens with bell ringing. Also the bourdon on the fifth course creates an imbalence between 2 and 3 part counterpoint and the strummed 5-part chords which are too prominent - especially if they are 6-4s. There is no clear continuous bass line anyway and even in the gigue where there are imitative entries you hear these in the upper octave rather than the lower because it is impossible to leave the high octave string out. The re-entrant effect is a constant. I don't know what kind of strings he is using but in places the bourdon on the 5th course sound twangy. Overwound perhaps which Bartolotti would never have used. I would say that if you are going to use bourdons you should use plain gut ones and use them - not leave them out 90% of the time. I just find this idea that somehow all the idiocyncracies must be eliminated and the music made to sound as if it were rather inferior classical guitar music is incredibly pedantic. It is the idiocyncracies that make the music more interesting. In both recordings the ornamentation is very basic. I know that Bartolotti's instructions are very basic too - but I am sure that in practice something much more elaborate would be appropriate. Unfortunately most people who play this stuff are classical guitarists who simply haven't registered that the baroque guitar and its music are different from what they are used to. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
You have actually summed up all the thoughts that have been running through my mind this afternoon. The problem is that classical guitarists all the time think of the fourth and fifth courses as sounding in the lower octave and they don't really listen to what they are actually playing. With bourdons or without them, the high octave strings are ever present and they alter both the melodic line and the internal counterpoint.This problem is exacerbated by the common practice of transcribing baroque guitar music into staff notation with the notes on the fourth and fifth course shown only in the lower octave. Added to which some classical guitarists don't seem to have a very good grasp of the rules of musical theory anyway and don't analyse the harmony and counterpoint correctly in the first place. It's a hopeless case really! I don't actually mind if people just play the music the way they like it. What irritates me is when they try to argue that what they are doing is historically accurate - and that everyone who does it differently is wrong. So - re-entrant tuners of the world unite. You have nothing to use but your bourdons. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]WALSH STUART Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt I'd like to chime in (no pun intended) as a cured classical guitarist. (And let me add, nothing is worse than a cured drunk.) Hello, I'm Chris, and I'm a classical guitarist. Today I've been bordon - free for six months (applause). Actually, I struggled with this issue when I first got my instrument, and received some stinging replies -- the internet works that way. The point has been taken, and I'm happier for it. Indeed, the idiosyncrasies of the instrument are a very big deal. Not only do they affect the sound you hear. They affect the logic of your interpretation. I'm currently being extreme, and using the Sanz, no-bordon stringing. That means I have to ground myself with a G as the lowest note. Classical guitarists are used to grounding themselves in the lowest note of a voicing, and building their interpretation of voice leading (is that what you call it???) and melodic development on that. Well, we're also used to finding it THREE whole strings below the G. Grounding on the G in a 5-course instrument requires changes in physical logic, muscle logic, reading logic, melodic logic, and voicing logic. Probably the most difficult thing is to take a piece you learned and loved from a Narciso Yepes transcription of Sanz, and then play it on the Baroque guitar. Talk about cambio del chip, as they say in Spain... Or as the Firesign Theater once said, "Everything You Know is Wrong." This is a GOOD thing. Embrace it. cud ______ From: Monica Hall To: WALSH STUART Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 7:09:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt - Original Message - From: "WALSH STUART" <[5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> To: "Alexander Batov" <[6]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > On 24 August 2010 21:52, Alexander Batov > <[1][8]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com> wrote: > >OK, I'm glad we agree on this. > Alexander > On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: > >It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on >the 5th course. >I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made >in 1994 - with the "French" tuning. Much better in every way. >Monica > > > > > I'd be fascinated to hear both versions! The campanellas on these > videos sound great with the low bourdons - or rather, with skilful > avoidance of them (when necessary, as in campanellas). And their > presence is very subtle. Alexander didn't even hear the low fifth. > > I know Monica and Lex have disputed these matters at length. > > This is obviously very sophisticated music. If (if) there is not > sufficient evidence for either approach, and if it comes down to > preference, then I think I'd rather go for bourdons. But it would be > really interesting to hear one piece side by side with and without a >
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Thank you for that!I was listening to the concert on the Radio 3 website but I couldn't recognise it at all. It sounded a bit like Piccinini's Chiaccona Cappona alla vera Spagnola. Maybe it's just something they have made up themselves and attributed to Foscarini. His book does include a different Chiaccona of Piccinini's. I dont really like these arrangements with everything but the kitchen sink in them. That's one of the few things I agree with Lex about. Baroque guitar music is meant to be played on the baroque guitar. I didn't particularly like Magdalena Kozuna's singing either - what I heard of it. I think she completely spoiled Monteverdi's Si dolce tormento. Maybe I will find time to listen to the rest of the concert before they wipe it off. Meanwhile - leave it on you website. If I listen to it a few more times I might trace it. Cheers Monica --- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:41 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini on Radio 3 The whole concert by Private Musicke (and brief description of it) can be heard here. The songs and pieces were played uninterrupted in each half. This, presumably, is the Foscarini: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the "Foscarini" piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the "tin-pan alley" approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Stuart Walsh" ; "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Monica, I very much agree about Kozena's singing: there's a fashion for well known sopranos to try their hand at small scale 'early music' but few seem to be able to make the transition succesfully (somewhat like similar rather wincing attempts at Broadway musicals). In addition to problems evident in her rendition of 'Si dolce tormento', what I found particularly disturbing was a frequent inability to get the pitch quite right - whether this was because she was trying to control her (pitch) vibrato or because she was unused to being accompanied by a relatively small band (with relatively soft instruments - bear in mind we're not hearing the performance but the performance tweaked by sound engineers so don't really know what the actual balance was). Perhaps she's happier with orchestral accompaniment - I understand her Handel and Gluck opera roles have gone down well in the past. I ought to say this doesn't just apply to Kozena: I recently heard Blow's Venus and Adonis with Venus sung by the operatic soprano Rosemary Joshua which had similar pitching problems - not just me, acquintances also remarked on it. Presumably producers judge that the fame of the name will ensure recording sales. M PS I also agree about the kitchen sink - but again I largely blame the producers and sound engineers who I suspect encourage bands in this manner of delivery, thinking it will be more 'exciting' and the novelty will thus generate more listening/sales. --- On Thu, 26/8/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 To: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Thursday, 26 August, 2010, 19:42 Thank you for that!I was listening to the concert on the Radio 3 website but I couldn't recognise it at all. It sounded a bit like Piccinini's Chiaccona Cappona alla vera Spagnola. Maybe it's just something they have made up themselves and attributed to Foscarini. His book does include a different Chiaccona of Piccinini's. I dont really like these arrangements with everything but the kitchen sink in them. That's one of the few things I agree with Lex about. Baroque guitar music is meant to be played on the baroque guitar. I didn't particularly like Magdalena Kozuna's singing either - what I heard of it. I think she completely spoiled Monteverdi's Si dolce tormento. Maybe I will find time to listen to the rest of the concert before they wipe it off. Meanwhile - leave it on you website. If I listen to it a few more times I might trace it. Cheers Monica --- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:41 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Foscarini on Radio 3 > > The whole concert by Private Musicke (and brief description of it) can be heard here. > > The songs and pieces were played uninterrupted in each half. This, presumably, is the Foscarini: > > [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 > > > Stuart > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ff.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Bartolotti
Gordon Ferries recording has at last come out. It's available on the Delphian label. It includes some theorbo pieces as well as guitar. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
I am also a fan of Private Musicke and have several of their CDs. Magdalena Kozuna is not one of their regular singers as far as I am aware. I suspect that she was co-opted for commercial considerations - in order to sell more tickets. She is well know whereas Raquel and Stephan van Dyck and Marco Beasley are not - at least over here. All them are very accomplished singers in this repertoire. So is Kozuna in the right repertoire - but the announcer did make the point that she is better know for doing other things. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]jean-michel Catherinot To: [2]Martyn Hodgson ; [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 I'm quite surpised by this, because that is not at all usually their stuff: and that's one of the reason why I like this band so much. Is that Magdalena Kozena's choice? They played this type of programm few weeks ago near my house with Raquel Andueza, and it was a quite wonderful concert, with both very elegant swing and dignity. Pierre Pitzl is really a preeminent baroque guitar performer on my opinion, who makes with his incredible sound easy to understand why the guitar seduced so much people during the 17th. --- En date de : Ven 27.8.10, Monica Hall a ecrit : De: Monica Hall Objet: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 A: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Vendredi 27 aout 2010, 11h00 Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the "Foscarini" piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the "tin-pan alley" approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>; "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 > >Dear Monica, > > I very much agree about Kozena's singing: there's a fashion for well > known sopranos to try their hand at small scale 'early music' but few > seem to be able to make the transition succesfully (somewhat like > similar rather wincing attempts at Broadway musicals). > > In addition to problems evident in her rendition of 'Si dolce > tormento', what I found particularly disturbing was a frequent > inability to get the pitch quite right - whether this was because she > was trying to control her (pitch) vibrato or because she was unused to > being accompanied by a relatively small band (with relatively soft > instruments - bear in mind we're not hearing the performance but the > performance tweaked by sound engineers so don't really know what the > actual balance was). Perhaps she's happier with orchestral > accompaniment - I understand her Handel and Gluck opera roles have gone > down well in the past. > > I ought to say this doesn't just apply to Kozena: I recently heard > Blow's Venus and Adonis with Venus sung by the operatic soprano > Rosemary Joshua which had similar pitching problems - not just me, > acquintances also remarked on it. Presumably producers judge that the > fame of the name will ensure recording sales. > > M > > PS I also agree about the kitchen sink - but again I largely blame the > producers and sound engineers who I suspect encourage bands in this > manner of delivery, thinking it will be more 'exciting' and the novelty > will thus generate more listening/sales. > > > > --- On Thu, 26/8/10, Monica Hall <[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 > To: "Stuart Walsh" <[11]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[12]vih
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Well - I think a lot of it has more to do with "bums on seats" as we say over here than musical taste. I thought the pecussion in the Foscarini overdone by any standards. In England classical music is very much a minority interest and I get the impression that producers think that every thing has to be dumbed down to try and sell it to the masses. I am quite put out that tonight's prom is devoted to the jazz singer Jamie Cullen. The Proms are supposed to be about classical music. There was also an evening of Stephen Sondheim. There are plenty of opportunities for people to hear these things anyway. The West End is awash with musicals. But perhaps I am just getting old and stuck in the mud. Monica - Original Message - From: "Chris Despopoulos" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:14 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Interesting... To my unschooled ears, I didn't find anything objectionable in the "Foscarini". I'll admit that I'm getting tired of the ciaconna rhythm and its ilk... It's getting very popular I think because it's so approachable. Sort of like los Tangos are popular in Flamenco because anybody can locate himself in that rhythm... unlike Bularias, for example which are far more complex. Likewise the ciaconna, where I can imagine hordes of listeners swaying along gently with the tiorbo player... Very easy listening. But as to kitchen sinks and all... Well, no doubt there was some sort of control over acceptable performances and arrangements of this music. So a kitchen sink virtuoso might find it difficult to get a gig playing for the local nobility. But I find it hard to accept that there were no impromptu sessions where players of any instrument handy (sink included) might join in to play along with some of the favorites, greatest hits, etc. I think there *is* an urge to popularize early music these days. Groups mount performances that they hope look and feel like these "popular" impromptu sessions they imagine. That is one way to popularize the music... recreate the music's popularity. (Have I used that word root sufficiently?) The only evidence I can personally site for impromptu playing is this... I play a mandore. As far as I know, there are two manuscripts for this instrument -- F. de Chancy, and Skene. Yet there are records among luthiers and violeros showing htey made many, many examples of this instrument. Who played it, and where? What music was played on it? Surely, hundreds and hundreds of people didn't commission these instruments so they could play pieces from two manuscripts. I can only believe that people worked out their old favorites in their spare time. And I further conjecture that they joined in the fun when friends got together to play. The playing of music was the only way you were going to hear it, after all. And indeed, I have been fortunate enough to be included in some arrangements as a mandore player, although no such part was written. Historically accurate? Who knows. Musically enjoyable? For me it was. I'm sure there are other reasons to believe people joined together, with what instruments they had, to play a tune as best as they could. And so I've noticed that larger ensemble performances are ever more in vogue. It doesn't bother me all that much. I can still play solo music, I can still find smaller arrangements to listen to. I just see a different angle on the music when I hear a larger ensemble. But I am no kind of historian. Maybe I'm an example of exactly why you don't like these sorts of arrangements. But there it is... cud __ From: Monica Hall To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 7:00:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the "Foscarini" piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the "tin-pan alley" approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>; "
[VIHUELA] Re: Private Musicke and Kozuna (was: Foscarini on Radio 3)
Interesting indeed! I though Odi Euterpe was one of the better things she sang - but I don't know it as well as some of the other songs. I listened to the whole broadcast last night. Perhaps it is simply that balence of the recording is all wrong. She is too prominent. But I though her interpretation of many of the songs was often too operatic and emotional. They did a slightly different programme in Edinburgh I guess it's the first time early music has much attention at the Edinburgh Festival too. But they might not have hired Private Musicke without Magdalena Kozuna. Who knows. Monica - Original Message - From: "wikla" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Private Musicke and Kozuna (was: Foscarini on Radio 3) Interesting! I just happened to hear the Private Musicke and Kozuna just before the talks here. They happened to have the opening concert here in the "Helsinki Festival": Love Madrigals of the 17th century. Great! Clearly the first time "early music" gets that much attention in this festival. I happened to hear the beginning of the concert's direct broadcast on my car radio: on that time she was singing the "Odi Euterpe" by Caccini that I know well. Something was wrong there... Then to home with better audio. The program continued. Here is the list of all: Filippo Vitali: O bei lumi Sigismondo D’India: Cruda Amarilli Claudio Monteverdi: Si dolce è il tormento Giulio Caccini: Odi Euterpe Luis de Briceno: Caravanda Ciacona Tarquino Merula: Canzonetta Spirituale sopra alla nanna Gaspar Sanz: Canarios Sigismondo D’India: Ma che? Squallido e oscuro Biaggio Marini: Con le Stelle in Ciel Giovanni Girolamo Kapsberger: Felici gl’animi Giovanni de Macque: Capriccio stravagante Giovanni Girolamo Kapsberger: Aurilla mia Sigismondo D’India: Torna il sereno Zéfiro Giovanni Paolo Foscarini: Ciaccona Barbara Strozzi: L’Eraclito amoroso Ruiz de Ribayaz: Espanioletta Tarquino Merula: Folle è ben si crede I knew most of the pieces. And have accopanied nearly all of the songs many times. I really was happy that to me so dear repertoire got so important place in the festival, and I was as much unhappy that the performance was not good - well I heard only the 3/4 of the concert and on radio broadcast... But I got the feeling that the singer did not know the meaning of the words, and so she couldn't perhaps so much express the message of the text. And she did not always sound very pure and clean... And to me the band did not make a very good impression either: If Merula's "sopra alla nanna" is made to sound "flamenco", I do not want to hear it. Not to speak of one of the greatest pieces by Barbara Strozzi, "L’Eraclito amoroso". That was the biggest flop in their performance; just singing the notes and improvising kitchen flamenco around -- no idea of the story and text, even no idea of the sober(?) passagaglia in places. Rubbish in that piece, spoiled possibilities... But when that repertoire is taken to the wide public, perhaps there will be more gigs also to a tiny theorbist with a big theorbo... ;-) All the best, Arto On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:53:05 +0100, "Monica Hall" wrote: I am also a fan of Private Musicke and have several of their CDs. Magdalena Kozuna is not one of their regular singers as far as I am aware. I suspect that she was co-opted for commercial considerations - in order to sell more tickets. She is well know whereas Raquel and Stephan van Dyck and Marco Beasley are not - at least over here. All them are very accomplished singers in this repertoire. So is Kozuna in the right repertoire - but the announcer did make the point that she is better know for doing other things. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]jean-michel Catherinot To: [2]Martyn Hodgson ; [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 I'm quite surpised by this, because that is not at all usually their stuff: and that's one of the reason why I like this band so much. Is that Magdalena Kozena's choice? They played this type of programm few weeks ago near my house with Raquel Andueza, and it was a quite wonderful concert, with both very elegant swing and dignity. Pierre Pitzl is really a preeminent baroque guitar performer on my opinion, who makes with his incredible sound easy to understand why the guitar seduced so much people during the 17th. --- En date de : Ven 27.8.10, Monica Hall a ecrit : De: Monica Hall Objet: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 A: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Vendredi 27 aout 2010, 11h00 Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with
[VIHUELA] Re: Private Musicke and Kozuna (was: Foscarini on Radio 3)
i>>? No - I think that they might not have hired Private Musicke with a less well known singer. Maybe I am completely wrong - but I think she would be the big attraction. The other singers which they work with are not so well known over here. I was thinking a bit more about it right now. In England we seem to prefer the Emma Kirkby/choirboy kind of voice and we assume that this is how people sang in the past. Italian singers today have a different, more dramatic approach and they may actually be closer to how the Italian repertoire was performed in the 17th century. (I know that Kozena isn't Italian...) As far as the broadcast was concern the imbalence between the singer and the group may have been due to the recording. And in the end - as ever - it is a matter of personal taste and tastes differ. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]jean-michel Catherinot To: [2]wikla ; [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 7:57 AM Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Private Musicke and Kozuna (was: Foscarini on Radio 3) Dear Monica, I'm not sure I understood your message correctly. Do you mean that they might have hired Private Musicke without Kozena? --- En date de : Sam 28.8.10, Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> a ecrit : De: Monica Hall <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Objet: [VIHUELA] Re: Private Musicke and Kozuna (was: Foscarini on Radio 3) A: "wikla" <[7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Samedi 28 aout 2010, 11h12 Interesting indeed! I though Odi Euterpe was one of the better things she sang - but I don't know it as well as some of the other songs. I listened to the whole broadcast last night. Perhaps it is simply that balence of the recording is all wrong. She is too prominent. But I though her interpretation of many of the songs was often too operatic and emotional. They did a slightly different programme in Edinburgh I guess it's the first time early music has much attention at the Edinburgh Festival too. But they might not have hired Private Musicke without Magdalena Kozuna. Who knows. Monica - Original Message - From: "wikla" <[9]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi> To: "Vihuelalist" <[10]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Private Musicke and Kozuna (was: Foscarini on Radio 3) > > Interesting! > > I just happened to hear the Private Musicke and Kozuna just before the > talks here. They happened to have the opening concert here in the > "Helsinki > Festival": Love Madrigals of the 17th century. Great! Clearly the first > time "early music" gets that much attention in this festival. > > I happened to hear the beginning of the concert's direct broadcast on my > car radio: on that time she was singing the "Odi Euterpe" by Caccini that > I > know well. Something was wrong there... Then to home with better audio. > The > program continued. Here is the list of all: > > Filippo Vitali: O bei lumi > Sigismondo D'India: Cruda Amarilli > Claudio Monteverdi: Si dolce e il tormento > Giulio Caccini: Odi Euterpe > Luis de Briceno: Caravanda Ciacona > Tarquino Merula: Canzonetta Spirituale sopra alla nanna > Gaspar Sanz: Canarios > Sigismondo D'India: Ma che? Squallido e oscuro > Biaggio Marini: Con le Stelle in Ciel > Giovanni Girolamo Kapsberger: Felici gl'animi > Giovanni de Macque: Capriccio stravagante > Giovanni Girolamo Kapsberger: Aurilla mia > Sigismondo D'India: Torna il sereno Zefiro > Giovanni Paolo Foscarini: Ciaccona > Barbara Strozzi: L'Eraclito amoroso > Ruiz de Ribayaz: Espanioletta > Tarquino Merula: Folle e ben si crede > > I knew most of the pieces. And have accopanied nearly all of the songs > many > times. > > I really was happy that to me so dear repertoire got so important place in > the festival, and I was as much unhappy that the performance was not > good - > well I heard only the 3/4 of the concert and on radio broadcast... But I > got the feeling that the singer did not know the meaning of the words, and > so she couldn't perhaps so much express the message of the text. And she > did not always sound very pure and clean... > > And to me the band did not make a very good impression either: If Merula's > "sopra alla nanna" is made to sound "flamenco",
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
After some thought this is my response to what Lex said in his posting on 26^th August. The vihuela is irrelevant. It is a different instrument with a different repertoire. Vihuela music can be played on the classical guitar simply by tuning the third course down a semitone. Today the vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar. Whether or not there are bourdons, there are always high octave strings on the 4^th and 5^th courses. Although its possible to leave out the bourdons, leaving out the treble strings is another matter.I have listened to Lexs recording several times with the music in front of me and most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which the upper part is more audible. In the very few places where it might (on paper) make better sense of the counterpoint to omit the treble string, as in bar 7 of the gigue, it is hardly practical to do so. So the imitative entry, where you can hear the bourdon if you listen carefully, just sounds confused. In the Sarabande the bass line falls a 7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big chord I comes out of nowhere! Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds to me more prominent especially in odd places in the campanellas. There may be no evidence for excessive ornamentation, super-intricate (folk-rock) strumming etc.etc. etc. (and I am not particular fond of these either). But neither is there any evidence that Italians thought of the guitar as having seven strings rather than five and that used the separate strings of the fourth and fifth courses independently as a matter of course. It is also unfair to suggest that other people play the music the way that they do because it is fashionable and that they havent given careful thought to what they are doing. Actually I enjoyed the video. It is a pleasure to listen to and a lot to learn from watching someone else playing. But the point I was trying to make was that it is in no respects better than the version on the CD played with the French tuning. I wonder how many listeners would notice the difference Stuart and Alexander seemed unsure of which method of stringing was being used. There are always problems. The comments in my later message on 25^th August were not directed specifically at Lex. There are a lot of people (including friends of mine) who dont seem to understand the way in which the high octave strings completely alter the character of the music. As ever Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different issues from the guitar. The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the effect this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a course. Monica - Original Message - From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Dear List, At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parallel octaves." If parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel octaves" and become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between two adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture. Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with an intervening note in one of the voices. Sorry for the lecture. Mike Michael Fink michael.f...@notesinc.com -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Today the vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your mind. The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, and even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the first place. The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar. Some people seem to shiver at the idea... most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which the upper part is more audible. For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others the bass becomes brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the overtones of the two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has of course no strings). In the Sarabande the bass line falls a 7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big chord I comes out of nowhere! I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music after all, in this funny mixed battuto-pizzicato style. Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds to me more prominent especially in odd places in the campanellas. Maybe it's not a paradox, since there are more notes on the 4th course involved. It seems to be generally accepted that the bourdon on the 4th course is needed with Bartolotti, so this happens when you play what the tablature says. In all 5 clips there are only 2 campanela runs, by the way, they are both in the prelude. The section high up the neck in the courante, for instance, could be misleading, it is just a 'regular' texture. But neither is there any evidence that Italians thought of the guitar as having seven strings rather than five and that used the separate strings of the fourth and fifth courses independently as a matter of course. Again, it is not so much a matter of using the separate strings independently, but using your ears (and therefore also your hands) in a more varied way. Or should we believe that the tablature obliges you to always play the two strings (the octave and the bourdon) in perfect balance? (This would then of co
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
This is an afterthought to my previous message... In the passage at bars 6-8 in the Gigue which Lex plays in the video the first four notes are played on the 5th and 4th courses, the next two are on the 3rd course, the next on the 4th course and the last on the 3rd course. The notes on the 4th and 5th courses will be in octaves but those on the 3rd in unison. What Lex seems to be trying to do is to leave out the high octave strings to place the whole passage in the lower octave. It doesn't seem to work very well. Once you start to try and leave things out you run into a whole range of problems. How do you decide which octave the notes belong to? My view is that if you are using octave stringing you should accept anomalies like this as part of the deal. Monica - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different issues from the guitar. The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the effect this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a course. Monica - Original Message - From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Dear List, At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parallel octaves." If parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel octaves" and become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between two adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture. Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with an intervening note in one of the voices. Sorry for the lecture. Mike Michael Fink michael.f...@notesinc.com -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Today the vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your mind. The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, and even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the first place. The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar. Some people seem to shiver at the idea... most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which the upper part is more audible. For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others the bass becomes brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the overtones of the two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has of course no strings). In the Sarabande the bass line falls a 7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big chord I comes out of nowhere! I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music after a
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
That is all very useful! Monica - Original Message - From: "Martin Shepherd" To: "Vihuelalist" ; "Lute List" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:46 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Hi All, Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list as it might be of interest there): For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with octaves on courses 4-6. Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the voice parts literally. The degree to which the upper octave can be heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of the player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too strong as it is really there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper partials to the sound of the gut basses. The re-entrant tuning of the guitar is another kettle of fish Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he writes is perfectly clear. He says that octaves were used more in England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a bit of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the 4th course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone else active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he probably brought his Italian habits with him!). Oh and of course Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although he borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously thought it was still common practice. Best wishes, Martin Monica Hall wrote: Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different issues from the guitar. The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the effect this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a course. Monica - Original Message - From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Dear List, At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parallel octaves." If parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel octaves" and become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between two adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture. Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with an intervening note in one of the voices. Sorry for the lecture. Mike Michael Fink michael.f...@notesinc.com -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Today the vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your mind. The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, and even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the fi
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing." We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings." Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to follow the musical argument. Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which I was in the dim distant past). Monica - Original Message - From: "Chris Despopoulos" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Random musings from a folksy perspective... Not scholarship, just a love for the guitar in all its forms. Going back to good old Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter), who played the 12-string guitar because he wanted a loud, piano-like sound -- not unlike the advice we get from Sanz about bordones -- I have to say that nobody really worries about doubled octaves, nor which octave to pick out when listening to him. When Lead Belly played a walking bass, is was a BASS line, no doubt about it. The octave adds PRESENCE, but the note is BASS. Were the strings so different in the 17th C. that one could have so much doubt about the *sound* or *register* of a note played on bordones? If both strings were struck together equally (say in a trill, or rasgueado, or even playing a single "note"), could it be so ambiguous that the performer or listener would be in doubt as to the intention or placement of the note in the overall scheme? I find that hard to believe. And wouldn't the evolution from a double-strung to single-strung six-string guitar indicate that the *hearing* was in the bass, so dropping the higher octave was a natural step? (Yes, I'm saying I hear bass in the bordon. Is that a cultural artifact, or a physical norm?) At least we can say guitar manuscripts evolved to ask for the added range in the bass. But the logic of re-entrant tuning makes it unlikely to add on a redundant 6th course at E. Without bordones taken as bass, why the 6th E? So that brought me to the next question... We're talking about an age where exquisite details were the order of the day. Why *wouldn't
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Not if you have another instrument playing the bass line. Assuming that your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of the bass stave, with a bourdon on the 5th course the 5th of the chord will sound a fourth below. With the re-entrant tuning the lowest sounding note of Chord E will sound a 5th above. Can't make it clear without an example in staff notation. Monica - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo", in the translation from your stringing article: "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass" which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter ----- Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Chris Despopoulos" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing." We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings." Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to follow the musical argument. Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which I was in the dim distant past). Monica - Original Message - From: "Chris Despopoulos" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Random musings from a folksy perspective... Not scholarship, just a love for t
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
I may be denser than usual today, but Not really - but without staff notation it is very difficult to explain. Assuming that your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of the bass stave, That would be D, right? No - following the standard way of indicating the pitch of note the bass instrument will be playing the note d - on the middle line of the bass clef. With a bourdon punto E would be A d a d' f', with A still a fifth above the base line instrument surely? No... it is a 4th below - A is in the lowest space in the bass stave. What is confusing you is that guitar music is always notated an octave higher than it sounds. With the re-entrant tuning the chord E will be ad' a d' f' The fact that guitar music is always notated an octave higher is another reason why there is so mcuh confusion about how it really sounds. In some ways it would be better to notate it at pitch of two staves. Monica Peter - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo", in the translation from your stringing article: "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass" which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Chris Despopoulos" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing." We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings." Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied viol
[VIHUELA] Euonimo and Aristonus
Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the story of Euonimo. Apparently he was competing with Ariston playing the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us). The Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a statue was erected to him. Does anyone know where the story comes from? Regards Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus
Many thanks to all of you who replied. I couldn't quite see how the grasshopper could produce a string! But the noise that it makes might enhance many a performance! Monica - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus I found an English translation of Strabo's, 6.1.9: The Halex River, which marks the boundary between the Rhegian and the Locrian territories, passes out through a deep ravine; and a peculiar thing happens there in connection with the grasshoppers, that although those on the Locrian bank sing, the others remain mute. As for the cause of this, it is conjectured that on the latter side the region is so densely shaded that the grasshoppers, being wet with dew, cannot expand their membranes, whereas those on the sunny side have dry and horn-like membranes and therefore can easily produce their song. And people used to show in Locri a statue of Eunomus, the cithara-bard, with a locust seated on the cithara. Timaeus says that Eunomus and Ariston of Rhegium were once contesting with each other at the Pythian games and fell to quarrelling about the casting of the lots;so Ariston begged the Delphians to cooperate with him, for the reason that his ancestors belonged to the god and that the colony had been sent forth from there;and although Eunomus said that the Rhegini had absolutely no right even to participate in the vocal contests, since in their country even the grasshoppers, the sweetest-voiced of all creatures, were mute, Ariston was none the less held in favour and hoped for the victory; and yet Eunomus gained the victory and set up the aforesaid image in his native land, because during the contest, when one of the chords broke, a grasshopper lit on his cithara and supplied the missing sound. The interior above these cities is held by the Brettii; here is the city Mamertium, and also the forest that produces the best pitch, the Brettian. This forest is called Sila, is both well wooded and well watered, and is seven hundred stadia in length. Peter - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 11:43:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus It's from Strabo's Geographika, Strabo in turn attributes the story to Timaeos. I only have a German translation, a websearch for "Eunomos" will probably yield what you are looking for. Regards Peter - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 10:57:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Euonimo and Aristonus Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the story of Euonimo. Apparently he was competing with Ariston playing the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us). The Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a statue was erected to him. Does anyone know where the story comes from? Regards Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
ication was always what they aimed for. As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added basses was not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was also to free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard. Mace(1676) certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE made Easie' as making playing 'become Easie' (no need for such difficult left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very widely used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other 18th century lutenists. MH --- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd <[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk <http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk>> wrote: From: Martin Shepherd <[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk <http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu <http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>>, "Lute List" <[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu <http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>> Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 9:46 Hi All, Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list as it might be of interest there): For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with octaves on courses 4-6. Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the voice parts literally. The degree to which the upper octave can be heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of the player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too strong as it is really there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper partials to the sound of the gut basses. The re-entrant tuning of the guitar is another kettle of fish Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he writes is perfectly clear. He says that octaves were used more in England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a bit of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the 4th course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone else active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he probably brought his Italian habits with him!). Oh and of course Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although he borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously thought it was still common practice. Best wishes, Martin Monica Hall wrote: > Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different issues from the guitar. > > The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the effect this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave stri
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
There are a couple of points here. First of all, Sanz's music may be less complex than Bartolotti's, although I would question this assumption. But the main point is that his book is intended as an instruction book with at least some material for beginners. The other point is that all the Italian (and Spanish) works to which Sanz refers all include some information on how to accompany a bass line and it is this context that he mentions them. He is saying is that none of them include as detailed a discussion of the subject as he does. Bartolotti does not include any instructions on how to accompany in either of his books so there is no reason to mention him. Monica - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 9:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti Sanz's solo music is by far not as elaborate as Bartolotti's. Most of Sanz's pieces in the 'modern style' (not the Italianate passacalles) are charming little tunes exclusively to be played punteado. Nothing like the polyphony or the rich battuto-pizzicato textures of a Bartolotti. For Sanz's folk pieces re-entrant tuning seems ok. Bartolott's name does not appear on the summary of guitar composers in Sanz's introduction, and he may not have been familiar with this music. are all to do with the kind of strings available. Plain gut strings were used for the bass on most plucked instruments. It seems odd to suppose that the (supposed inferior) quality of bourdon strings has been a reason to move over to re-entrant stringing on the guitar. For a contrasting view, perhaps I may recommend my article 'Bourdons as usual', in the last issue of 'The Lute' (47), obtainable from The Lute Society. There you'll find Monica's responses as well. There are no electronic versions available, I'm afraid. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. The most practical reason to not use a 6 string/course instrument is perhaps chord strumming. The first seven chords of guitar alfabeto, plus the I, O and P chords, all need no more than three fingers, while frequent harmonies (like E, A or F-both major and minor) are impossible to play without barré's on a six-course instrument tuned in G, at least if we wish to include all courses. It raises the problem of strumming over a limited number of strings, which introduces theoretical difficulties for the player. With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, which is below the other voices. This raises the question if his remark about the D minor chord has anything to do with basso continuo. Besides, most bass instruments such as the bass viol and the theorbo can produce the D below the A (the fifth course bourdon) of the guitar. When playing together with a strummed guitar with bourdons, which is not a situation described by Sanz (nor by any other writer), the fundamental bass can still be taken care of on the bass line instrument. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
The answer to that is that nobody really knows. M - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:28 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Lex, The more I think about it I tend to agree that it is not obvious that Sanz' comment about the D minor chord in 4/6 refers to basso continuo. Which brings me back to question that has been nagging me for a while, what on earth is Sanz on about?? Any ideas? Peter - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Peter Kooiman" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010 12:16:59 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance Thank you for your kind words, Peter. Yes, you are right of course. The very first example gives the alfabeto chords and the bass notes to which they belong. We find similar instructions in almost every tutor from the time. But after having done that Sanz gives many examples in staff and tablature for which alfabeto would fall short. He makes a distinction between the rasgueado method and the far more elaborate punteado. What I didn't find is any reference to playing (completely) rasgueado/alfabeto together with a bass instrument. Considering the nature of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies, this seems not all too obvious. Lex - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, I just re-read the "Documentos y advertencia generales", Sanz definitely shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying: "tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:" "All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers." So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for Sanz. Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Considering the nature of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies, this seems not all too obvious. I don't think this is as obvious as you might think. Triadic harmony is much more flexible that you seem to think. There is an interesting example in Alex Dean's dissertation which I can't quite put my finger on right now where he show how you can accompany the minor 7th on the second degree of the scale with a basic triad and in fact he says that Nigel North does just that. (I hope I have remembered it right). The point about triadic harmony is that it includes only the basic notes. But you can add to this e.g. adding 7ths to a chord does not alter its basic notes. And you can use a basic triad to accompany a 7th in the bass. Another thing is the 4-3 suspension. If the alfabeto books are anything to go on it was regarded as acceptable to play a basic triad when the voice part has the 4-3 bit and it is quite effective. It may indeed explain why Corbetta (and Bartolotti and Foscarini) is fond of doing this. I know that Milanuzzi explains how to do it properly and of course more experienced players would have been able to adapt the chords by including the 4th or the 7th and to create a mixed accompaniment. The fact that Sanz doesn't explicitly describe everything doesn't mean that he intended it to be done in the simplest possible way. If you read everything that Doisi de Velasco says it is obvious that the acompaniment may be strummed but you can combine the two. Also it is not necessary to reproduce the chords or the accompaniment in the same inversions as the bass part indicates. Just one example from Granata 1659 p.159.the 4th bar of the top line - he has put the 4-3 suspension on the 5th course and there is nothing wrong with that. You seem to have an exraordinary narrow pedantic approach to most things which seems to reflect the environment in which you work rather than what players really did or do in practice. M - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, I just re-read the "Documentos y advertencia generales", Sanz definitely shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying: "tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:" "All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers." So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for Sanz. Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
It depends what you are looking at...if you are referring to the likes of
Millioni and Colonna which are intended for beginners or alfabeto songs
where the chords were put in by the printer of course it may seem that they
prefer the basic chords.
But this isn't the case with Bartolotti - why didn't he get himself a
6-course instrument!
M
- Original Message -
From: "Lex Eisenhardt"
To: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:35 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
[Perhaps] we should have a closer look at the early use, >1600 - 1620, of
the five-course guitar and the choice of alfabeto chords that we find
there. The number of barre's is very limited, and there seems to be a
clear preference for 'open' chords, including unfingered strings. The
other point I mentioned is the theoretical complication of leaving out the
strings that do not belong to the chord (like for instance the sixth
string in a D chord), for which alfabeto has no sign. Another problem is
the very frequent G minor chord, which would be far more difficult to make
than it is now (letter O).
Of course, in a later stage, when the guitar had reached great popularity,
the barre became part of the guitar technique.
Lex
- Original Message -
From: "Chris Despopoulos"
To: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:48 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings. I'm sure we
can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the
time that we can uses as guides. Monica and Lex, you both use words
like "perhaps" and "likely"...
I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an
overarching impediment. The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and
Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them. Also, 12-string
guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into
Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's. (I don't agree with
excluding the living relatives from the discussion.) If the musical
requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and
fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the
requirements... Or even adding on another instrument joined at the
hip. I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course
instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing capabilities.
I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense.
There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is captured
in this issue. The most difficult intervals to play on the modern
guitar are close intervals. Scordaturae exist to address this issue
because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or
expression. Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue. But
with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale. I see this as a
practical issue, not a historical one. The simple fact is, I can play
and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot
play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa. The issue is
historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things at
different times. But it's the practice that interests me.
I also believe ("perhaps" it is "likely") that with the tuning scheme
we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant tuning.
Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when
strumming, but it doesn't add anything new. So as long as players
think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest in
a 6-course instrument. That interest can only arise when they think in
terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension is
necessarily either up or down in pitch. It so happens for the guitar
it was down. But to me it indicates that at some point the practice
shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using
the extended range of bass strings. And I'm sure that shift occurred
before guitars became single-strung. I'm also sure it did not occur
over night.
In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just
loud. Or does it mean you get to choose? When talking about a
transition in practice and construction, I'm sure you can argue for
whichever you feel is most appropriate for the situation. You could
use a timeline to assign probability to one approach or another. But
that is a false friend, because even Darwin would tell you that
innovation isn't necessarily a smooth continuum. We can use musical
theory of the era, but that was also in transition -- I just learned
about a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi that was not unlike
something you'd see on this forum. It was all about transitions in
taste, theory, and composition. What other guides do we have?
Physically, we're pretty much the same as people of the era, and our
instruments are fairl
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain where it all began. Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24, many of which are played with a barre. Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't accommodate more complex chromatic harmony. Monica Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" ; "Vihuelalist" ; "Chris Despopoulos" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:30 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance But surely the 'barre' was an integral part of 5 course guitar from the first: how else are many of the movable alfabeto shapes to be played? Indeed, the technique was clearly highly developed: look at Valdambrini's books of 1646 and 1647 for example. MH --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Chris Despopoulos wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: "Lex Eisenhardt" , "Vihuelalist" Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 13:01 [It's likely] I would not argue that point at all. I'd say it indicates that there was not a physical limitation of the hand in taking on a more varied repertoire. It's the later stage I'm talking about, in comparison to the earlier stage. The theoretical difficulties were overcome, and the barre was accepted technique. Sanz includes it liberally in his laberinto. Likewise, if the advantage of 6 strings had been sufficiently recognized at the time, I believe any theoretical impediments would have been overcome. Well, indeed that did happen -- it just took a long time, and it seems to have coincided with (or at least reinforced) hearing the bass in the 4, 5, and 6th courses. cud __ From: Lex Eisenhardt <[1]eisenha...@planet.nl> To: Vihuelalist <[2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 7:35:11 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance [Perhaps] we should have a closer look at the early use, >1600 - 1620, of the five-course guitar and the choice of alfabeto chords that we find there. The number of barre's is very limited, and there seems to be a clear preference for 'open' chords, including unfingered strings. The other point I mentioned is the theoretical complication of leaving out the strings that do not belong to the chord (like for instance the sixth string in a D chord), for which alfabeto has no sign. Another problem is the very frequent G minor chord, which would be far more difficult to make than it is now (letter O). Of course, in a later stage, when the guitar had reached great popularity, the barre became part of the guitar technique. Lex - Original Message - From: "Chris Despopoulos" <[1][3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2][4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance > > I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings. I'm sure we > can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the > time that we can uses as guides. Monica and Lex, you both use words > like "perhaps" and "likely"... > I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an > overarching impediment. The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and > Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them. Also, 12-string > guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into > Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's. (I don't agree with > excluding the living relatives from the discussion.) If the musical > requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and > fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the > requirements... Or even adding on another instrument joined at the > hip. I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course > instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing capabilities. > I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense. > There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is captured > in this issue. The most difficult intervals to play on the modern > guitar are close intervals. Scordaturae exist to address this issue > because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or > expression. Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue. But > with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale. I see this as a > practical issue, not a historical one. The simple fact is, I can play > and compose music on a guitar tuned in t
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
They were certainly used by Amat and by anyone who read his book. That is the whole point of his various tables - to allow you to transpose pieces and if necessary when accompanying a song. And Millioni also includes a table Tavola delle lettere corrispondenti con le quali ciascuno se ne puol servire in trasmutar sonare da una lettera all'altra . . . This shows all the different letters in different positions on the fingerboard all of which involve using a barre so that you can transpose all the basic pieces in the book into different keys. As far as using a barre is concerned Chords G, H, M and N, to name but a few feature all the time in Millioni's books. And earlier in Montesardo. The fact that the some of the alfabeto song books do include a table giving the full alfabeto does suggest that players may have used these when transposing the accompaniment into a more convenient key. All these sources are earlier than Brizeno - whose book in any case is intended for complete beginners. M - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the 24 were used in practice. The _early_ sources we have (Of cifras: Briceno, for instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a limited selection, mainly in first position. Lex ----- Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain where it all began. Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24, many of which are played with a barre. Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't accommodate more complex chromatic harmony. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Quite a few of the pieces in Foscarini's third book (1632) include passage just shifting up and down the fingerboard - usually with chord N and chord M. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Vihuelalist" ; "Lex Eisenhardt" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:27 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I wouldn't have considered Valdambrini 1646/47 a late source and he certainly peppers many pieces with movable alfabeto shapes in all positions up to and including thos requiring a 'barre' on the 9th fret. Without a detailed search I noted the following alfabeto shapes used used in this high position: M N P S H K G In his table to Book 2 (p 39) he even shows G H M S with a 'barre' on the 10th and 11the fret! But I couldn't see he used higher than the 9th in his pieces. MH --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: "Vihuelalist" Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 13:45 What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the 24 were used in practice. The _early_ sources we have (Of cifras: Briceno, for instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a limited selection, mainly in first position. Lex - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance > The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain where it all began. Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24, many of which are played with a barre. > > Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't accommodate more complex chromatic harmony. > > Monica > > To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however, who did what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in songs and dances from >1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype. It is what happened to be published. This is to say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally used to give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most likely also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy. Feel free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would be helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination, but how far should that go? It would be interesting to know your sources. The only printed guitar book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo, although there are some manuscripts. How many of these have you seen? Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass line. The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from 1616 - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean. Most of the songs in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems intentional and works in practice. I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in which I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all kinds of extra notes added. As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open courses. There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet followed by a quaver. The point is that in very early sources they were experimenting with ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes as well as just indicating the chords and the direction of the strums. In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note values the stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the duration of the notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable notation was not invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier. And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note. Perhaps you should read "The baroque guitar made simple" on my web page. M To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
It's not my wish to deny that the trick of transposing by using barre chords was completely unknown. But Amat is rather pedantic about his invention, and eager to prove his right. I don't know what you mean by that. What he says is quite simple and straightforward and works perfectly well in practice. Using a barre is not that difficult! Still, Millioni (1627) is later than the period I was thinking of All surviving copies of Millioni's book belong to later editions. The earliest is Quarta impressione del primo, secondo, et terzo libro. Presumably there had been three previous printing of this compilation and all three books would have appeared separately earlier. >> As far as using a barre is concerned Chords G, H, M and N, to name but a few feature all the time in Millioni's books. And earlier in Montesardo. Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are almost all in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to reflect daily practice. So..if you are just dancing it doesn't matter what key you are in. The keys of the songs in the song books I have seen are mostly in keys with no sharps or one flat. This is because the singers read them according to the solisation symbols. It doesn't necessarily indicate pitch literally. Transposing may have been for a more advanced level. Well - even stable boys may have wanted a bit of variety from time to time. M Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
The rest of this message cannot be understood by anyone who has not seen the Pedruil manuscript or other early sources of baroque guitar music. So perhaps I should elucidate a bit. Alfabeto representing the 5-part chords was probably established quite early on. The problem facing guitarists was how to indicate the following 1.how to indicate the direction of the strokes and how many times a chord was to be repeated 2.how to indicate rhythm and metre. This is the problem which Montesardo addresses in his book. He says...various people have also urged me to invent an Easy Rule so that they can learn to play in the correct time and measure without having either notes or numbers. This is the new invention which he refers to on the title page - not alfabeto. It would help if people actually read these introductions (including Alex Dean). Montesardo's system does not only indicate the direction of the strokes but also the note values and so on. It is quite a good system, but badly printed. In fact his was not the earliest system. The earliest one I have come across is in the Cancionero de Bezon (you can see an example of this on my web page).There is also the system using the grid found in undated but early manuscripts associated with Palumbi. The Pedruil manuscript is dated ca.1614. Most of the music in it is in alfabeto written out in what was to become the standard way. On a single line with stroke marks above or below the line. However it also includes a few pages with the music written out in Italian tablature. The note values/strum signs are indicated above the stave using the grid system. One may ask why use a different system? The open courses to be included are not indicated i.e. there are no "0s". In some of the chords it does seem fairly obvious that at least the fifth course is to be omitted. Even Lex seems to have concluded that is the case in his Musical example 3. Nowhere in my previous message did I suggest that in this example they should all be plucked. So we are looking at a situation in which fewer than five courses are sometimes to be strummed. That is why the music is in tablature rather than alfabeto. As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open courses. I know that the transcription is based on a number of assumptions. As would be any transcription. But why on earth would it have to be mixed style? Most chords in ex 3 have unfingered courses. Should we suppose that they should all be plucked? I have answered that query above - but the answer is no. However the other example which you have give - Musical example 5 is slightly different. After the first chord - which is actually chord I although only the stopped notes are shown - there is a single figure - 3 on the 2nd course. This could be included as chord I is repeated although it is a pointless dissonance but it could be played as a single note anticipating the next chord. In the third chord it is not self-evident that the first course should be included anyway but there is a problem because if the third course is included it is an unaccountable dissonance. It would make more sense just to pluck the two notes. The next chord is chord I then chord C (why have you left out the 5th course here?). There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet followed by a quaver. All played with downstrokes. Interesting... In the end, for the harmony it does not make a difference. If you are familiar with Foscarini you will know that he does indicate down strokes in unusual places. As it is a single note I can't see that it is a problem. Unfortunately I can't write it out in staff notation. In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note values the stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the duration of the notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable notation was not invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier. So, in some occasions the stroke signs are not there to indicate strokes at all ?? The short answer is yes! If you had read what I have said above you would understand what I mean. But I will try to explain it again more clearly. When they start to put passing notes between the chords they put stroke marks under them even where it is physically impossible to include the passing note in the
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I can agree whole heartedly with what Martyn says about a barre. When I
started to learn the guitar at the advanced age of 30 I was astonished
(being a violinist) that such a thing was possible and found it difficult to
do. Now I can do it easily.
It is simply a matter of practice. Anyone who is not willing to make the
effort shouldn't be playing the guitar.
In any case this argument that because stable boys and other amateurs could
only play chords with open courses is the reason why the 5-course guitar
didn't acquire a sixth course much sooner isn't very convincing.
Bartolotti, Corbetta, De Visee and co were not stable boys.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Vihuelalist" ; "Lex Eisenhardt"
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:26 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Dear Lex,
You write below that 'I can assure you that many pupils hate them
('barre' chords) intensely.'
Well some beginners may find them a trouble at first but experience
tells us that practice soon renders them relatively easy: chords like N
P K G are very comfortable under the fingers; perhaps M S & are a
little trickier but we've only 5 courses to span not the 6 on the
'modern' guitar. And bear in mind that M is not a million miles from
the ubiquitous D major chord shape on a g lute which some lute players
nowadays seem to struggle with but which the Old Ones used with
abandon.
Martyn
M
--- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 20:49
>> But Amat is rather pedantic about his
>> invention, and eager to prove his right.
> I don't know what you mean by that.
I was thinking of his report of his meeting with the singers in the
pub. Seems to have been a self-satisfied exraordinary narrow pedantic
guitarist.
> What he says is quite simple and
> straightforward and works perfectly well in practice. Using a barre
is not that difficult!
I can assure you that many pupils hate them intensely. It is probably
not for nothing that the first seven chords of alfabeto, which are used
the most, have no barre.
>> Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are
almost all
>> in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to
reflect
>> daily practice.
>
> So..if you are just dancing it doesn't matter what key you
are in.
I thought we were discussing the practice of amateur guitarists. Easy
keys without many barre's make the five-course guitar much more
practical in self-accompaniment than a six-course instrument
[the rest of this message can only be followed with 'The Lute' 47
before you, sorry]
>
> As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in
assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed
in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to
be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean
that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open
courses.
I know that the transcription is based on a number of assumptions. As
would be any transcription.
But why on earth would it have to be mixed style? Most chords in ex 3
have unfingered courses. Should we suppose that they should all be
plucked?
> There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord
which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet
followed by a quaver.
All played with downstrokes. Interesting...
In the end, for the harmony it does not make a difference.
> In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note
values the stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the
duration of the notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable
notation was not invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of
notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply
working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources
should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier.
So, in some occasions the stroke signs are not there to indicate
strokes at all ??
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what appear to be single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should be included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes - assuming that this is actually practical. There are also places where it is obvious that the "single" note can't be included in the chord and even that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks. It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music in the same way as staff notation or whether you regard it as an indication for what the right hand should do. - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" ; "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Dear Monica, I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note.' In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of this. as ever, Martyn --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10 > Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however, who did > what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in songs > and dances from >1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype. It is what happened to be published. This is to > say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally used to > give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most likely > also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy. Feel > free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would be > helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination, but how > far should that go? It would be interesting to know your sources. The only printed guitar book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo, although there are some manuscripts. How many of these have you seen? Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass line. The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from 1616 - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean. Most of the songs in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems intentional and works in practice. > I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in which > I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all kinds > of extra notes added. As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open courses. There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet followed by a quaver. The point is that in very early sources they were experimenting with ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes as well as just indicating the chords and the direction of the strums. In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note values the stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the duration of the notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable notation was not invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier. And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note. Perhaps you should read "The baroque guitar made simple" on my web page. M > > To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it. Here it is in full. This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what appear to be single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should be included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes - assuming that this is actually practical. There are also places where it is obvious that the "single" note can't be included in the chord and even that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks. It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it as an indication for what the right hand should do. One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I hope that makes sense. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" ; "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Dear Monica, I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note.' In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of this. as ever, Martyn --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10 > Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however, who did > what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in songs > and dances from >1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype. It is what happened to be published. This is to > say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally used to > give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most likely > also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy. Feel > free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would be > helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination, but how > far should that go? It would be interesting to know your sources. The only printed guitar book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo, although there are some manuscripts. How many of these have you seen? Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass line. The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from 1616 - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean. Most of the songs in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems intentional and works in practice. > I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in which > I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all kinds > of extra notes added. As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open courses. There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet followed by a quaver. The point is that in very early sources they were experimenting with ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes as well as just indicating the chords and the direction of the strums. In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note values the stroke marks have
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. Another example, the opening of the Aria di Firenze on p. 16, may make things even more clear. Foscarini seems to imply to turn back to the M2+ in between the melody notes (the melody would be 3-2-3-5-3-5 on the first string). It could as well be interpreted as a single strummed line, without returning to the full chords at the 3's, which is rather awkward. It is not exactly what he says in his rules, but there are more incongruences. Whether the thumb should be involved is an open question (I think not). This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried it. Foscarini gives single notes with a stroke sign, at ornamental notes, added to an alfabeto chord (as a 4-3 on chord I, for example). The most obvious explanation would be to repeat the chord together with the note. This is a separate issue and really you could either play the note single or include it in the chord as you repeat it. It is a matter of personal choice. This is what I assumed at the second chord of ex. 5 in my article. The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord rather than inserting it into the chord - so it is not comparable with what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it. There seems to me to be no obvious reason to include the 5th and 1st courses in the following chord either. It makes no sense when strummed. Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of experimenting with the mixed style. Monica Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Maybe I didn't make it to the end of the video clip but it seemed he was using the thumb only to do very rapid passages in down strokes. What may be more to the point is that it was standard lute technique to play elaborate passages of single notes alternating the thumb with the first finger. As Foscarini was a lutenist he may have had this in mind. But if that is what he is indicating in the Corrente he is using the stroke marks in the tablature to indicate a specific type of pizzicato technique rather than strumming. Given that the rest of the tablature is rather chaotic and inconsistent this seems a bit unlikely especially as in the context there is no advantage to doing it in that way. Interestingly Bartolotti, in the Ciaccona in his first book (p.50) has indicated that a short variation should be played in this way - but again - he is indicating a pizzicato technique using a different notational device. As far as the Villano is concerned - I can't imagine why anyone should want to play it like that - today or in the past. But I suppose I am a stick in the mud Old Fogey. Monica - Original Message - From: "Chris Despopoulos" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the thumb in general. There's nothing more or less impractical about using the thumb than any other finger. It's a matter of practice. One can use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on single strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings. Flamenco playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit. There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the discussion. But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not* think about Flamenco? See the following ... [1]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html -- Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier flamenco artists). Whether you like or approve of what they're doing, the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious. And you might get a view of some thumb work in action. Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique. [2]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo -pulgar In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the Baroque guitar. But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if you make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in action. How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the Baroque? I have no idea whether the study has been done. If not, it should be. I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco. Also, many Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the Spanish Baroque dances. (I would expecially love to see a study of the Jacaras... Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an ethnic group? The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it? And it's very similar to Las Bularias... the name coming from "burlar", or "to joke".) I digress. If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates are not practical in his specific context, that may be true. I don't know that music. But my inclination would be to try and take them literally and see if I wind up learning a new technique. I'll say it over and over again... the right hand is far more important than the left. cud __ From: Monica Hall ... This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried it. -- References 1. http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html 2. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo-pulgar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
You can find a tablature edition of a fairly large selection of Foscarini's pieces on my page at [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com It includes the pieces we have mentioned. Monica --- Original Message - From: [2]Chris Despopoulos To: [3]Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Is there an edition of these pieces that I could easily see? I'd be interested to try and get my hands around this example myself... Or do I have to make a purchase? I don't know Foscarini at all, so maybe it's time for me to branch out of Spain... cud ______ From: Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: Chris Despopoulos <[5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 9:46:03 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Maybe I didn't make it to the end of the video clip but it seemed he was using the thumb only to do very rapid passages in down strokes. What may be more to the point is that it was standard lute technique to play elaborate passages of single notes alternating the thumb with the first finger. As Foscarini was a lutenist he may have had this in mind. But if that is what he is indicating in the Corrente he is using the stroke marks in the tablature to indicate a specific type of pizzicato technique rather than strumming. Given that the rest of the tablature is rather chaotic and inconsistent this seems a bit unlikely especially as in the context there is no advantage to doing it in that way. Interestingly Bartolotti, in the Ciaccona in his first book (p.50) has indicated that a short variation should be played in this way - but again - he is indicating a pizzicato technique using a different notational device. As far as the Villano is concerned - I can't imagine why anyone should want to play it like that - today or in the past. But I suppose I am a stick in the mud Old Fogey. Monica - Original Message - From: "Chris Despopoulos" <[6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> To: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance > I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the > thumb in general. There's nothing more or less impractical about using > the thumb than any other finger. It's a matter of practice. One can > use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on single > strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings. Flamenco > playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit. > There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the > discussion. But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not* > think about Flamenco? See the following ... > [1][8]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html -- > Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier > flamenco artists). Whether you like or approve of what they're doing, > the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious. And > you might get a view of some thumb work in action. > Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique. > [2][9]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-pouced edo > -pulgar > In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the > Baroque guitar. But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if you > make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in > action. How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the > Baroque? I have no idea whether the study has been done. If not, it > should be. I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar > class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco. Also, many > Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the > Spanish Baroque dances. (I would expecially love to see a study of the > Jacaras... Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an ethnic > group? The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and > tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it? And it's very similar to > Las Bularias... the name coming from "burlar", or "to joke".) > I digress. If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates are > not practical in his specific context, that may be true. I do
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord M and play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and play the 4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course stopped at the 3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply be repeating Chord G. On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the first fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following Chord N on line 4 as well. I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style. What Corbetta says in 1639 is very relevant here... Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke marks, these are all intended to be played on the first course [canto] only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter. In this way it seems to me to create a better and more delicate effect. In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it applies more generally. You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other circumstances. What is the point of doing it here. There is a clear melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta says. MOnica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:18 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Dear Monica, I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the notes after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum with a bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the answering phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a passing dissonance which, as I believe you also pointed out some time ago, seems to be a hallmark of much of this music. Martyn --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 8:58 Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it. Here it is in full. This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what appear to be single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should be included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes - assuming that this is actually practical. There are also places where it is obvious that the "single" note can't be included in the chord and even that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks. It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it as an indication for what the right hand should do. One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I hope that makes sense. Monica - Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2]eisenha...@planet.nl>; "Monica Hall" <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance > > > Dear Monica, > > I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And while we are > on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is > a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single > note but it is still a single note.' > >In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part > of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the > single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of this. > > as ever, > > Martyn > --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried it. In this context? How does he indicate that? I had in mind a specific example - in the Spagnoletta on p.8. In the second section on the first line, the 6 following Chord M seems to be intended to be played as a single note and has a down stroke. In his fourth Rule Fosco indicates that notes like these should be played as single notes --- Fourthly Particular care must be taken when playing those numbers which are placed after an alfabeto letter. These must be played singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way the true effect of the ornamental notes will be felt and the parts will follow clearly one after the other which is what I intend. This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes should always be accomapnied the chords even if this is possible. The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord rather than inserting it into the chord - so it is not comparable with what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it Foscarini does that all the time. Does what all the time? Introduce the 4th into the chord and not resolve it. Can you give some examples. That is not what he suggests in Rule 5. Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of experimenting with the mixed style. I see no good reason Well you wouldn't of course. Once you have made up your mind you are not willing to consider alternative ideas. Even if we assume that the passage is to be strummed throughout there is no reason to assume that all the open courses should be included in all the chords. You have left out the 5th course in two places in your example 3 and in the final chord of your example 5. It seems that as far as you are concerned it is more important to eliminate 6/4 chords than meaningless dissonance. It would make more sense to treat the third chord as a 3-part one. This is a very obscure source and there are different ways of interpreting it. I wouldn't myself regard it as good scholarly practice to jump to conclusions about anything in it. There are one or two places in the alfabeto pieces whether there are figures although I am not sure how these should be interpreted. I would also point out that there are dots after several of the stroke marks. They are there for a purpose. One other point on a different subject. In the examples in Alex Dean's dissertation chords G, H and M are regularly used and these are all played with a barre. Moreover all of the songs are in keys which have no key signature or one flat so that some of the chords are not much use any. The songs are not necessarily intended to be performed at written pitch. The whole point of Amat's tables etc. is to enable the player to transpose to a pitch that suites the singer. This would involve the other chords. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Thanks for the detailed analysis. I agree with you about the alternating thumb and finger technique but I dont think you are supposed to incorporate the passing notes into the chords! If you read my message to Lex you wll see that Fosco says don't. Fourthly Particular care must be taken when playing those numbers which are placed after an alfabeto letter. These must be played singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way the true effect of the ornamental notes will be felt and the parts will follow clearly one after the other which is what I intend. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Martyn Hodgson Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Ok... I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by and large I agree with Monica. Where I don't agree is when she says: > One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente > detta > la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the > passing > notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the > first > line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These > can't > actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G > can't!). I agree with the above, but not the following... > Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with > upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes > with the > thumb. > The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically > play > the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the note, and the index finger for the up-beat. In other words, I'm thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion. So I would say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ... As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note is very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a down-stroke. And these are to be alternated in relation to the rhythmic structure of the piece. So why would it be different on the guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible -- something I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one. An added thing I found in trying the piece out... It pays to hold the chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note passages. But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming passage. AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect sense! If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an up-stroke of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9... D-p-ma-p | H-G-O. I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails, and the ma is pretty much the same thing with only two fingers. Also, I let go of the D chord as I play the ma, and with the following thumb upstroke my left hand is already playing the barre for the upcoming H. All of that happened rather quickly, and the right hand just sort of fell into place that way. Whew... Sorry if this is over the top. For me the bottom line is maintaining the strumming sensation, in my mind, and in my hands as much as possible. Which gets to Monica's last statement... The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play. True, but they do have a practical use if they keep you oriented in the pulse of the music. Thanks for pointing to a lovely piece. If I can get the transition from the N7 to the M+5 in measure 26, I'll add it to my regular bag of tricks. cud __ From: Monica Hall To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 10:57:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord M and play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and play the 4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course stopped at the 3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply be repeating Chord G. On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the first fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following Chord N
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
All I can do is to repeat what Foscarini says himself - Fourthly Particular care must be taken when playing those numbers which are placed after an alfabeto letter. These must be played singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way the true effect of the ornamental notes will be felt and the parts will follow clearly one after the other which is what I intend. What you are suggesting seems to me to be needlessly complicated. It is possible to all sorts of things if you really want to but whether the musical results are worth listening to in the end is another matter. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance And I don't agree with you when you assert 'it is not possible to hold Chord G and play the 4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret' ! Clearly and obviously it's not possible if you hold on the full chord (and indeed the M3 would have the same stricture) but there is another way to continue the general harmony AND playing the scalic note - as below. I shall have to go on at length since this is much easier to demonstrate in the flesh rather than on the page but stay with me. What you need to do is bear in mind is my comment earlier about not rigidly expecting to always play all 5 courses every time you strum and then do this: at G strum all 5, at the 3 again strum the G chord 5 but with the accente on the 5th course (just maybe lightly brushing some of the higher courses of the chord - if at all), then at 0 (on 4th) lift the 3rd finger from the 5th course and the 4th from the 4th course and brush upwards, then on the 2 put the 3rd finger down on the 2nd fret on the 4th course and brush down from the 4th course. I believe this sort of discriminatory play was generally expected and becomes, dare I say it, second nature. Regarding what Corbetta has to say: you often make the point that there was not general stanardisation and that each source should be examined individually without automatically assuming one sources observations necessarily applies to another. And isn't it interesting that Corbetta felt the need to say only strike a single string in this particular book - indicating that it was known for a short strum/brush to be executed instead. The point about discriminatory play is that not every strum/brush carries the same weight - it's more subtle than that - one adjust the stress according to the melodic and harmonic phrasing and the pulse of the music. Indeed, in some cases it may be that almost all that is heard is the single note (especially if it is in the treble) and I'd very much go for a mixture in which sometimes the accompanying harmony is heard (especially when the melody can be easily executed and emphasised on the top course) or where the melody predominates alone. So in your B chord example, yes I do strike the 1 and 3 alone but, note that it is quite possible to play the B chord with fret 1 on the 5th course (finger 2nd course with 2nd finger and 4th course with third and 5th with first). if one feels so inclined. In short, I believe the strummin/brushing possibilities are more flexible and serve to enhance the music of this splendid repertoire than I think you do - but maybe I can convert you in due course? as ever, Martyn --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 15:57 I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord M and play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and play the 4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course stopped at the 3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply be repeating Chord G. On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the first fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following Chord N on line 4 as well. I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style. What Corbetta says in 1639 is very relevant here... Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke marks, these are all intended to be played on the first course [canto] only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter. In this way it seems to me to create a better and more delicate effect. In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st course between chords - because t
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
There seems to me to be one obvious flaw in this advice..in order to
play an open 4th course you would need to release the barre or shift it to a
half barre as well removing the 3rd fingure from the 5th course and the 4th
finger from the fourth course.
What sort of evidence is there for this sort of discriminatory play anyway?
Monica
What you need to do is bear in mind is my comment earlier about not
rigidly expecting to always play all 5 courses every time you strum and
then do this: at G strum all 5, at the 3 again strum the G chord 5 but
with the accente on the 5th course (just maybe lightly brushing some of
the higher courses of the chord - if at all), then at 0 (on 4th) lift
the 3rd finger from the 5th course and the 4th from the 4th course and
brush upwards, then on the 2 put the 3rd finger down on the 2nd fret on
the 4th course and brush down from the 4th course. I believe this sort
of discriminatory play was generally expected and becomes, dare I say
it, second nature.
Regarding what Corbetta has to say: you often make the point that there
was not general stanardisation and that each source should be examined
individually without automatically assuming one sources observations
necessarily applies to another. And isn't it interesting that Corbetta
felt the need to say only strike a single string in this particular
book - indicating that it was known for a short strum/brush to be
executed instead.
The point about discriminatory play is that not every strum/brush
carries the same weight - it's more subtle than that - one adjust the
stress according to the melodic and harmonic phrasing and the pulse of
the music. Indeed, in some cases it may be that almost all that is
heard is the single note (especially if it is in the treble) and I'd
very much go for a mixture in which sometimes the accompanying harmony
is heard (especially when the melody can be easily executed and
emphasised on the top course) or where the melody predominates alone.
So in your B chord example, yes I do strike the 1 and 3 alone but, note
that it is quite possible to play the B chord with fret 1 on the 5th
course (finger 2nd course with 2nd finger and 4th course with third and
5th with first). if one feels so inclined.
In short, I believe the strummin/brushing possibilities are more
flexible and serve to enhance the music of this splendid repertoire
than I think you do - but maybe I can convert you in due course?
as ever,
Martyn
--- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 15:57
I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord M
and
play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
play the
4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course stopped at
the
3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply
be
repeating Chord G.
On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
first
fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following Chord
N on
line 4 as well.
I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style. What Corbetta
says
in 1639 is very relevant here...
Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke
marks, these are all intended to be played on the first course [canto]
only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it
is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different
fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter. In this way it seems to
me to create a better and more delicate effect.
In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st
course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it
applies more generally.
You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other
circumstances. What is the point of doing it here. There is a clear
melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta
says.
MOnica
- Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:18 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
>
>
> Dear Monica,
>
> I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the
notes
> after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum with
a
> bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the
answering
> phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a
passing
> dissonance which, as I believe you al
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
The strict application of Foscarini's fourth rule leads to new questions. In many places we first have a chord (for example A major = letter I), then comes a single 3 on the second line of the tab (the note d') and then the strumming continues while there is nothing in the tab. The most obvious solution is to return to the original chord, but it is unclear. If the original chord should be strummed in full again, what about the single note? The fourth rule does not apply in this circumstance. It is covered by Foscarini's Fifth rule. And if there is a number following after [the letter] either above or below, you should ensure that this can be heard clearly and distinctly, whether the stroke is made up or down. If after any such number you find another stroke WITHOUT a letter, this stroke belongs to the preceding letter which should be repeated. This rule applies in general to many of the pieces that you may play, and among others it is appropriate to the "Corrente, dette la Favorita" found on page 60. I do wish you lot would actually read these introductions.. This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes should always be accomapnied the chords even if this is possible. Not always, but in certain situations. The situations are clearly covered in Foscarini's two rules. By the way, a situation which is very similar to the ex 5 from my article (Lute 47) can be found halfway the fourth line of Foscarini's p. 32. All strummed, and probably including all courses. It also occurs on the first line preceding Chord I+ without a stroke mark. Who is to say which is intended given the inconsistency of Fosco's notation. In both contexts a 3-part chord makes more sense. But we have gone over all this before. This is a very obscure source and there are different ways of interpreting it. I wouldn't myself regard it as good scholarly practice to jump to conclusions about anything in it. Then don't I am not doing - I think there at least three different ways of interpreting the passage. I was merely suggesting an alternative way of looking at things and have never committed myself to one view or the other. It seems that you have as you haven't even suggested the possiblity that some of the chords might include fewer than five courses (6/4s excepted). I will have to repeat that I have never intended to say that barre's did not exist. But it seems they were avoided in the _early_ stage, when the guitar and its stringing were emerging. Which early stage? How do you know? Even the table of chords in the Cancionero de Bezon includes chords G, H, M and possibly K although it is difficult to read. Moreover all of the songs are in keys which have no key signature or one flat so that some of the chords are not much use any. The songs are not necessarily intended to be performed at written pitch. The whole point of Amat's tables etc. is to enable the player to transpose to a pitch that suites the singer. This would involve the other chords. The table is of the sort of pedantry which we often find in tutors. With which you no doubt are very familiar but dont understand how to use. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Postscript to my last message - chords G and H are used in the Cancionero Bezon (dated 1599) in both the alfabeto song texts and the strummed passacalles. Monica - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 12:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance The strict application of Foscarini's fourth rule leads to new questions. In many places we first have a chord (for example A major = letter I), then comes a single 3 on the second line of the tab (the note d') and then the strumming continues while there is nothing in the tab. The most obvious solution is to return to the original chord, but it is unclear. If the original chord should be strummed in full again, what about the single note? The fourth rule does not apply in this circumstance. It is covered by Foscarini's Fifth rule. And if there is a number following after [the letter] either above or below, you should ensure that this can be heard clearly and distinctly, whether the stroke is made up or down. If after any such number you find another stroke WITHOUT a letter, this stroke belongs to the preceding letter which should be repeated. This rule applies in general to many of the pieces that you may play, and among others it is appropriate to the "Corrente, dette la Favorita" found on page 60. I do wish you lot would actually read these introductions.. This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes should always be accomapnied the chords even if this is possible. Not always, but in certain situations. The situations are clearly covered in Foscarini's two rules. By the way, a situation which is very similar to the ex 5 from my article (Lute 47) can be found halfway the fourth line of Foscarini's p. 32. All strummed, and probably including all courses. It also occurs on the first line preceding Chord I+ without a stroke mark. Who is to say which is intended given the inconsistency of Fosco's notation. In both contexts a 3-part chord makes more sense. But we have gone over all this before. This is a very obscure source and there are different ways of interpreting it. I wouldn't myself regard it as good scholarly practice to jump to conclusions about anything in it. Then don't I am not doing - I think there at least three different ways of interpreting the passage. I was merely suggesting an alternative way of looking at things and have never committed myself to one view or the other. It seems that you have as you haven't even suggested the possiblity that some of the chords might include fewer than five courses (6/4s excepted). I will have to repeat that I have never intended to say that barre's did not exist. But it seems they were avoided in the _early_ stage, when the guitar and its stringing were emerging. Which early stage? How do you know? Even the table of chords in the Cancionero de Bezon includes chords G, H, M and possibly K although it is difficult to read. Moreover all of the songs are in keys which have no key signature or one flat so that some of the chords are not much use any. The songs are not necessarily intended to be performed at written pitch. The whole point of Amat's tables etc. is to enable the player to transpose to a pitch that suites the singer. This would involve the other chords. The table is of the sort of pedantry which we often find in tutors. With which you no doubt are very familiar but dont understand how to use. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I am not sure whether there is any point in replying to this if Lex has already left the list but in case anyone is interested.. And if there is a number following after [the letter] either above or below, you should ensure that this can be heard clearly and distinctly, whether the stroke is made up or down. If after any such number you find another stroke WITHOUT a letter, this stroke belongs to the preceding letter which should be repeated. This rule applies in general to many of the pieces that you may play, and among others it is appropriate to the "Corrente, dette la Favorita" found on page 60. I admit that it takes some effort to understand. It says indeed that you have to play the 'number following after [the letter]' in such a way that it can be heard clearly and distinctly. Together with the rest of the chord or not? Of course. If you look at the examples which he gives it is obvious that what he is describing is a 4-3 suspension and that the altered note is included in the first chord and resolved in the second. If Lex does get this message I would refer him to Gary Boyes' dissertation on Granata p.51 where Gary has translated the rule and given a musical example. What Foscarini is describing is quite different from what is happening in the Pedruil example. Which early stage? How do you know? Even the table of chords in the Cancionero de Bezon includes chords G, H, M and possibly K although it is difficult to read. Same pedantry, although it is interesting to see that a number of barre chords are lacking from the chart. The chart has not been completely filled in. The barre chords are used in the alfabeto texts and passacalles notated in alfabeto. After pushing the 'send' button I will immediately unsubscribe from the [VIHUELA] list. Again, and for the same reason. Well - as we say over hear "If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen." Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
