Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC News of the bailout
Howdy Vorts, The use of the word bailout is not descriptive of the intent of the package of legislature that failed to win support in congress. An analogy to the plan offered by Paulson is more like who get's a seat in the lifeboat. Paulson suggests a 700 billion size lifeboat will handle all the passengers Somewhere lurking out there in the dark stormswept waters is 150 trillion worth of passenger derivitive monolopy money. At the max there is only about 5 triliion worldwide available in real passenger money space in the lifeboat. Throwing 700 billion at the problem is like spitting on a gasoline fire out of control. Our local volunteer fire dept has a great motto... we save the slab. Richard
Re: [Vo]:Black Holes from Newtonian Gravity?
I'm sure this ground has probably been covered before on vortex, but how does the effect of gravity transcend the speed of light? At least, I've been given the impression by certain prevalent theories that gravity obeys the same law of C, meaning the effects of gravity, or gravity waves, radiate through space at the speed of light. If that were the actual case I'm puzzled as to how these theories can explain that the effects of gravity can escape the clutches of a black hole while other EM effects can't. Or is this minor point under dispute? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Letter in Danish newspaper about cold fusion
I don't know why, but this is in English. Interesting perspective: http://www.information.dk/166947 - Jed
[Vo]:Failure to replicate means failure to replicate
Here is an exchange of messages between Marissa Little, Steve Krivit, and me. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Marissa Little To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:10 PM Subject: CMNS: EarthTech's Dash-Zhang experiment Thanks to John's recent reminder, we've finally completed the report of our effort to verify the excess heat claims of John Dash and Wu-shou Zhang. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Steven Krivit [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Failure to replicate means failure to replicate Dear Marissa and Scott Little, I am sure that you do excellent work at Earthtech and you are making contributions to the CMNS field. However, I wish to point out to you that failure to replicate means failure to replicate, nothing more. Your statement in the CMNS list about your attempt to verify John Dash's excess heat result is misleading and unscientific. You cannot verify Dash's claims, or for that matter anybody's claims. That would be a misrepresentation; you can only attempt to replicate, and you will, or will not have success in your attempt. The next time you purport to verify anybody's claim, I suggest instead that you use the phrase effort to replicate the claim. Thank you, Steven B. Krivit Editor, New Energy Times - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To: Steven Krivit [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Failure to replicate means failure to replicate Well said. Even if Little had replicated that would not verify the claim. It would, perhaps, bolster it, unless Little's work was sloppy, in which case it would not add or subtract anything. The first independent replication of Fleischmann and Pons did not verify it once and for all. There was still plenty of room for doubt. Although, I would say the first 10 quality replications did. Enough replications do add up to verification. But Little has never been able to replicate any cold fusion experiment, so obviously he lacks essential skills or tools. Unless you want to conclude that his results outweigh replications in hundreds of major labs. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Black Holes from Newtonian Gravity?
OrionWorks wrote: I'm sure this ground has probably been covered before on vortex, but how does the effect of gravity transcend the speed of light? At least, I've been given the impression by certain prevalent theories that gravity obeys the same law of C, meaning the effects of gravity, or gravity waves, radiate through space at the speed of light. If that were the actual case I'm puzzled as to how these theories can explain that the effects of gravity can escape the clutches of a black hole while other EM effects can't. First of all, in classical GR gravity is not a real force, it's just a distortion of the spacetime geometry. So, it doesn't necessarily need to escape or travel the same way other things might. (Quantum gravity theory is something else again and I know nothing about it.) Second, and more to the point, a static gravitational field, whether Newtonian or classical GR, doesn't propagate, it just is. This is *IDENTICAL* to the case of the (static) electrical field of an electron or proton: The field doesn't propagate, it just exists. You cannot discuss the propagation velocity of a static field because there is no time-dependent property to it. (Note that, in my limited understanding of current theory, charge is conserved; consequently, whatever charge may be lying around was there from the beginning, and there was never any need to consider how the field behaved when it appeared.) Note that a black hole CAN HAVE CHARGE. In other words, the E field escapes from the black hole, JUST LIKE THE GRAVITATIONAL FIELD. I don't hear anyone claiming this implies that the propagation speed of the E field is infinite! A gravitating body and a charged object in uniform linear motion, again, share identical properties: In the reference frame of the moving object, the field just is, it doesn't propagate. And in any inertial frame, which is by definition also in uniform linear motion, the field of the gravitating/charged body seems to move with the body, rigidly, with no propagation delay. A sensitive electric field meter will indicate that the field of a negatively charged object in uniform motion points *directly* *toward* the object; it does not lag the object's motion! The same is true of the gravitational field of a uniformly moving object. Now, when we introduce *acceleration*, the discussion changes. The acceleration of a gravitating or charged body results in a change, or dislocation, in its field; that dislocation is detectable as *radiation*. That dislocation -- or radiation -- propagates at C for both an E field and a gravitational field. Or is this minor point under dispute? It wasn't, as far as I know. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Black Holes from Newtonian Gravity?
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: First of all, in classical GR gravity is not a real force, it's just a distortion of the spacetime geometry. So, it doesn't necessarily need to escape or travel the same way other things might. (Quantum gravity theory is something else again and I know nothing about it.) Second, and more to the point, a static gravitational field, whether Newtonian or classical GR, doesn't propagate, it just is. Well - Although the field does not propagate, gravity waves propagate, and in common parlance -- this wave effect is commonly what is being referred to as the speed of gravity - AFAIK. The has been plenty of theory over the years together with a tiny amount of evidence, that these gravity waves can be superluminal depending on the intensoty of the source. Here is what is probably the best evidence, but it is still not convincing evidence; but it suggests that the next time this kind of thing happens, we may be able to settle the argument, once and for all (if the two major gravity wave detectors are turned on, which was not the case in 2004: The December 26, 2004 a magnitude 9.3 earthquake occurred in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Sumatra in Malaysia and caused a powerful tsunami. The earthquake exceeded by a factor of 10 the next most powerful earthquake to occur anywhere in the past 25 years. Was it triggered externally by gravity waves ??? • Indonesia earthquake: December 26, 2004 at 00 hours 58 minutes (UT) • Gamma ray burst: December 27, 2004 at 21 hours 36 minutes (UT) • IOW -- 44.6 hours later - the gamma ray telescopes orbiting the Earth picked up the arrival of the brightest gamma ray burst ever recorded. We know these travel at C so that is our baseline. Coincidence or no? This site and many others explain the argument that it was not coincidental, and part of the superluminal wave hypothesis: http://www.etheric.com/GalacticCenter/GRB.html It is FAR from proof, but is an intriguing hypothesis. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Failure to replicate means failure to replicate
[Here is a follow-up message I sent to Steve, Scott and Mike Melich.] To be fair, I should point out that as far as I know no one has replicated the latest claims by Dash Zhang, and their method is significantly different from other cold fusion claims. So I think it is possible that they are making a mistake, as Scott's results indicate. Without much more information about both sides, plus some other independent attempts at replication, it is impossible for me to judge who is right. I agree with Steve that the word verify does not describe this process very well. The first independent replication of Fleischmann and Pons did not verify it once and for all. There was still plenty of room for doubt. On the other hand, I would say the first 10 quality replications did verify it. Enough replications do add up to certainty. To put it another way, there is no other way to be certain about an experimental claim. Multiple, high s/n replications are the only standard of truth. The tricky part is deciding how many replications at what s/n ratio you need before you can be absolutely certain. Laplace developed methods of determining this, which Mike Melich has been discussing lately. Scott has not been able to replicate any cold fusion experiment, so he must lack some essential skills or tools. It cannot be that his results outweigh replications in hundreds of major labs. If that were possible, the experimental method itself would not work, and replications would mean nothing. - Jed
[Vo]:FW: TRIGGER SHRIMP holds the key to our BIG BANG birth out of DARKENERGY-DARKFLOW SuperCosmos PARENT Aexoverse! NOT so MYSTERIOUS 'DARK FLOW' via HADRON(Suisse) developments. . .
TRIGGER SHRIMP holds the key to our BIG BANG birth out of DARKENERGY-DARKFLOW SuperCosmos PARENT Aexoverse! Mooj, This sounds like our ideas merged: DARK FLOW! ! ! ! CAVITATION EVENT ! ! ! aka LOW-DENSITY CENTRE within the 'eye' of a SUPERSPACE/DARK ENERGY TOROID-MAELSTOM= LOW DENSITY BUBBLE formation(Quasi-Big-Bang) CAVITATION EVENT. HA! The TRIGGER-SHRIMP held the KEYS TO THE FORMATION OF THE UNIVERSE! ! !~;-)* * * CONSIDER: The DarkEnergy/DarkFlow HYPERSPACE/SUPERCOSMOS Aexoversal Medium supporting FRACTALATING EDDIES characterized as HYPERDENSE TOROID-MAELSTROMS that create gyroscopically HYPER-HYPER SPEED DENSE ring Gravionic-Centrific OUTPULLING-STRESS upon the NEEDLE-POINT EYEcreating a LOW-PRESSURE POINT BELOW the EC^3ubed base-ambient speed-density level of DARK-ENERGY SUPERCOSMOS Aexoversal levels---OPENING THE LOW-PRESSURE BUBBLE BREACH and engendering the PAROXYZMAL SYPHON EFFECT from the the LOW PRESSURE UNIVERSE-BUBBLE's point of view is more-or-less it's BIG-BANG BIRTH MOMENT. . . AND ADDING TO THIS: The likely hood that at that same moment in EQUILIBRIUM that PAROXISMAL CAVITATION occurring as the HYPERSPACE-PARENT DARK ENERGY TOROID would become SO EXTREMELY SPEED-DENSE IN HYPER GRAVITY above its normal EC^3ubed Base Ambient Spectrum Speed-Density Plateau level that it would also PAROXISMALLY! ! ! COLLAPSE UPON ITSELF thusly creating the 'TRIGGER-SHRIMP' 'Cavitation Event' that would give our BIG BANG just the FURIOUS PAROXISMAL 'boost' that it would need to overcome the tendency for our BIRTH BIG-BANG WHITE-HOLE from DARKENERGY-DARKFLOW Aexoversal SUPERCOSMOS 'adjacent parent space' rather NOT SUCK OUT becoming a classic BLACK HOLE SINGULARITY and thus aborting our 'Trigger Shrimp' BIG-BANG Birth! ! ! Fortunate that!~;-) * * *//HADRON//Suisse//Plasma-Breach(incipient) Gray-Hole Sub-Singularity DARK FLOW ACCESSING Reactor(aka Modified SuperConductor-Hadron Super Collider)=Functional Access 'Adjacent Dark Energy SUPERCOSMOS-HyperSpace Hyper-Density-Hyper Gravity Energy Field for LIMITLESS POWER PRODUCTION via Self-Sustaining Bleed-through (quasi-wormhole) induction toroid-superconductor-ring 'Plasma-Breach' reactors THE BIG PLUS adaptation for ADVANCED MEGA-PLUS BEYOND-LIGHT SPEED Hyper Gravity PROPULSION. . . From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:31:15 -0500 On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:02:06 -0800, you wrote: On Sep 25, 2008, at 7:05 AM, Harry Veeder wrote:Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space By Clara Moskowitz Staff Writer posted: 23 September 2008 12:46 pm ETAs if the mysteries of dark matter and dark energy weren't vexing enough, another baffling cosmic puzzle has been discovered. Patches of matter in the universe seem to be moving at very high speeds and in a uniform direction that can't be explained by any of the known gravitational forces in the observable universe. Astronomers are calling the phenomenon dark flow. The stuff that's pulling this matter must be outside the observable universe, researchers conclude. Another alternative explanation is that the stuff is being *pushed* by an invisible clump of negative gravitational charge matter that is located in the visible part of the universe. --- Is there any evidence of that? A hypothesis which I posited here, a couple of years or so ago, conjectured that there was no big bang but, instead, a cavitation event which occurred in an infinite or nearly infinitely massive Universe which created our universe; a bubble surrounded by a huge block of Swiss cheese, the Universe, for want of a better analogy. If my hypothesis is correct, the accelerating red shift of the galaxies receding toward the wall can be easily accounted for by the inverse square law increasing attraction as the matter in our universe hurtles toward the wall. JF See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home, work, or on the go. See Now _ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
Re: [Vo]:Failure to replicate means failure to replicate
I wrote: To be fair, I should point out that as far as I know no one has replicated the latest claims by Dash Zhang, and their method is significantly different from other cold fusion claims. Cancel that. I was thinking of Dash's earlier work with titanium sheets. I don't recall other reports of heat from titanium. Zhang Dash are working with sheets of palladium in heavy water and sulfuric acid. Two recent papers: Zhang, W.-S. and J. Dash. Excess Heat Reproducibility And Evidence Of Anomalous Elements After Electrolysis In Pd/D2O+H2SO4 Electrolytic Cells. in The 13th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2007. Sochi, Russia. Dash, J. and D.S. Silver. Surface Studies After Loading Metals With Hydrogen And/Or Deuterium. in The 13th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2007. Sochi, Russia. The geometry is a little unusual and not many people have used acid electrolytes, but some have. The high temperature should not be a problem with a Seebeck calorimeter. I need to read what the Littles did, before gabbing about this. Here I have done what I always criticize the skeptics for doing: commenting without doing my homework first! - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Failure to replicate means failure to replicate
http://earthtech.org/experiments/DZ/DZ2.htm I need to read what the Littles did, before gabbing about this. Here I have done what I always criticize the skeptics for doing: commenting without doing my homework first! - Jed
[Vo]:The evolution of good governance
Quick - vorticians - name the country that is the world's second largest exporter of food and agricultural products, after the United States. Hint- that country is not large and warm, like Australia or Brazil, and in fact is *tiny* - having only twice the acreage of the state of Massachusetts. And with about one-fourth of its land located below sea level, it is far from ideal cropland. Hint- that country is not tropical, sunny or particuarly fertile and in fact has generally cold and chilly and horrible weather. It is almost synonymous with the use of wind energy since it has no petroleum and little coal. Hint- that country has a population of 16 million very liberal, but non-communist, inhabitants The Dutch (Netherlands) have long been way ahead of the rest of the world in farming technology, due to brainpower and a general lack of other good alternatives; and having generally failed in their colonial ambitions they have stuck to farming for lack of anything better. The Dutch have a liberal but fiscally conservative government [the best of both worlds], allowing prostitution, euthanasia, marijuana and universal health care, but they have managed the world's highest crop yields and most efficient small farms, and derive a very decent standards of living - which since they have little other natural wealth is quite remarkable. Although its economy is generally so far to the left as to be called socialist by detractors in the NeoCon movement, due to its entitlements and innate humanism, it is ironically also one of the most free market and capitalist farm economies in the world - less regulated than the US or Brit farmer - which only indicates that *true liberalism can be the ideal form of capitalism.*Eat you heart out, Remi. It is also testament to the fact, which has been debated here on occasion, that land - even reclaimed and salty and marginal land - when intelligently farmed and fertilized, cannot be overused or depleted. BTW - this place has more barnyard animals than people, and it would surprise no one if they (the animals) were not someday allowed some kind of limited voice in government some day. Jones
[Vo]:energy from air
Vortexians; Dr. Evert sent me this URL www.airturbineengine.com . I had a talk with Dr. Beverly, whose number appears at the bottom of the page. I politely made the case that the energy has to be coming from somewhere, he doesn't want to hear that. He went on about how they've built a working energy machine, and they are going to have it verified by two independent testing laboratories. He wasn't interested in discussing the matter of where the energy comes from. I told him about Vortex and that we would discuss it. Their machine is an updated version of Schauberger's Respine, I've always assumed that the energy comes from induced nuclear reactions, but you know what happens when you assume, eh? --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
[Vo]:Sounds like the clathrates are letting go
Quick summary: Two expeditions to the Arctic have, in the last few days, seen methane gas bubbling up through the ocean. It is apparently leaking out from below the permafrost layer on the bottom. As of this moment it is anyone's guess how long this has been going on for, but it could be a new phenomenon due to the melting of the permafrost on the bottom of the arctic ocean. References: Article in English in The Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/exclusive-the-methane-time-bomb-938932.html http://tinyurl.com/3n4tdy Article (in French) to which I was originally directed; ran across the reference in another newsgroup: http://www.futura-sciences.com/fr/news/t/climatologie-1/d/methane-arctique-le-retour-de-la-bombe-climatique_16891/ http://tinyurl.com/3h77qt
Re: [Vo]:Black Holes from Newtonian Gravity?
In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:41:21 -0400: Hi, [snip] Second, and more to the point, a static gravitational field, whether Newtonian or classical GR, doesn't propagate, it just is. This is *IDENTICAL* to the case of the (static) electrical field of an electron or proton: The field doesn't propagate, it just exists. You cannot discuss the propagation velocity of a static field because there is no time-dependent property to it. (Note that, in my limited understanding of current theory, charge is conserved; consequently, whatever charge may be lying around was there from the beginning, and there was never any need to consider how the field behaved when it appeared.) [snip] However, consider the case where a black hole swallows a planet sized chunk of matter. How long will it be before the *change* in strength of the gravitational field of the BH will be felt outside the event horizon? ...and perhaps more to the point how does the information pertaining to that change in mass escape? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:The evolution of good governance
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:37 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Quick - vorticians - name the country that is the world's second largest exporter of food and agricultural products, after the United States. The Netherlands is primarily a trading nation and has been for centuries, so some of the exports may also be imports. Hint- that country is not large and warm, like Australia or Brazil, and in fact is *tiny* - having only twice the acreage of the state of Massachusetts. And with about one-fourth of its land located below sea level, it is far from ideal cropland. Actually most of it is excellent cropland, because it is silt washed down by the rivers from the rest of Europe. I think that the land that was reclaimed from the sea is washed free of its salt by rain water and pumping. That leaves good soil (silt) for growing food. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
