[Vo]:CMNS at a Critical Point
Dear Vortexians, I've taken a closer look at the 157 excess heat experiments collected by Ed Storms in his 2007 book. The collective body of experiments represents 1/f noise: many small events, few large ones. Kozima et al. have found the same result for individual experiments. Now I want to discuss the meaning of it. A short description of my analysis and my questions are here: http://complexity.haikolietz.de/?p=38 The website is public, so you may forward this to anyone who might have something to contribute (or let me know who). This is a rather new type of analysis and I hope to tap the wisdom of the crows. We can discuss this here on the list. Many thanks Haiko -- Haiko Lietz Science Reporter Sociologist complexity.haikolietz.de www.haikolietz.de Germany
Re: [Vo]:CMNS at a Critical Point
Howdy Haiko, Interesting use of the name crows as an analogy to wisdom. Here in Weimar Texas, crows are a nuisance. However, they have the remarkable ability to sound survival alarms. Your novel approach to an analysis of CMNS may provide the alert that triggers an alarm. You have personally provided us with a clue to a troubling series of failed tests in studying methods of hyper-aeration of water. In the past 20 years, we have recorded some thousands of tests with only two confirmed that reached the threshhold of the oxidation potential we sought. www.gasmastrrr.com We commend you for your study of Ed Storms' 2007 book and look forward to reading the commentaries afforded by your website. Richard Dear Vortexians, I've taken a closer look at the 157 excess heat experiments collected by Ed Storms in his 2007 book. The collective body of experiments represents 1/f noise: many small events, few large ones. Kozima et al. have found the same result for individual experiments. Now I want to discuss the meaning of it. A short description of my analysis and my questions are here: http://complexity.haikolietz.de/?p=38 The website is public, so you may forward this to anyone who might have something to contribute (or let me know who). This is a rather new type of analysis and I hope to tap the wisdom of the crows. We can discuss this here on the list. Many thanks Haiko -- Haiko Lietz Science Reporter Sociologist complexity.haikolietz.de www.haikolietz.de Germany
Re: [Vo]:CMNS at a Critical Point
Well, that's sorta like mixing ravens with raving. I thought crows a better analogy however a cornfield of crows can be as noisy as a crowd. Richard http://complexity.haikolietz.de/?p=38 The website is public, so you may forward this to anyone who might have something to contribute (or let me know who). This is a rather new type of analysis and I hope to tap the wisdom of the crows. The wisdom of crowds it should have read :) Haiko No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release Date: 10/24/2008 6:08 PM
Re: [Vo]:Video of BLP Replication at Rowen University on BLP website
Impressive video - thanks Ron It is mind-boggling that Jansson can totally ignore the possiblity of LENR transmutation, however. Let me rephrase that - it is probably understandable from several perspectives, but... when will he get around to it? This is not all that different from Arata, folks! I see now that the marketing angle is that BLP will become the fuel supplier of the future - and that the reactor could come from any manufacturer and will be used primarily for heating. Same as LENR has been envisioned. The consumer will probably have to periodically replace his spent fuel with new fuel and BLP will try to keep the price competitive with gas of coal. Using the old coal furnace as the model - where your home had a large hopper-bin and the truck would come in every other week from October till May and refill it - yet for every ton of coal which would have been used, probably 100 pounds of Randonium will be required (Raney Ni + NaH + ??). Best of all from BLPs perspective, the spent fuel they take back will be loaded with hydrinos which can be reprocessed for batteries, ect. I suspect that the reason that it needs to be reprocessed fairly often is that the Raney metal degrades in pore size. - Original Message From: Ron Wormus http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_video_v2.wmv
[Vo]:Re: CMNS: CMNS at a Critical Point?
I appreciate the analysis Haiko did of the data I list in my book. Before too much effort is spent on deciding what the power law Haiko found means, we should consider several facts. The values I listed are the maximum excess energy reported by each listed study. This energy is based on a variety of temperatures of the cathode, applied current density, simple size, and amount of NAE that might have formed on the sample. Each of these variables is known to affect the amount of excess energy produced. Therefore, the data do not describe the same conditions. When a power law is applied, the same conditions are assumed to exist. For example, if a phase transition is being examined, the transition is always between the same two phases. Instead, the CF reaction is occurring under a variety of conditions. Nevertheless, the data appear to fit a power law. What can this mean when these considerations are applied? I would like to suggest the relationship means nothing. I suggest the same relationship could be obtained by plotting many conditions in nature. For example, I expect the same relationship can be obtained by plotting the number of gasoline engines in service vs their horse power. Many small engines would be found to exist and the number would drop as the size increased. A few spikes might exist in the relationship at the popular sizes. Such a relationship, although interesting, gives no basic understanding about how gasoline engines work or why the different sizes were created. The challenge no longer is to prove CF is real, which was the intent behind making this list. The challenge now is to discover the characteristics of the NAE. I don't think this relationship gives any insight about how this can be done or how the NAE behaves under various conditions. Ed On Oct 25, 2008, at 2:05 AM, Haiko Lietz wrote: Dear colleagues, I've taken a closer look at the 157 excess heat experiments collected by Ed Storms in his 2007 book. The collective body of experiments represents 1/f noise: many small events, few large ones. Kozima et al. have found the same result for individual experiments. Now I want to discuss the meaning of it. A short description of my analysis and my questions are here: http://complexity.haikolietz.de/?p=38 The website is public, so you may forward this to anyone who might have something to contribute (or let me know who). This is a rather new type of analysis and I hope to tap the wisdom of the crows. We can discuss this here on the list. Many thanks Haiko -- Haiko Lietz Science Reporter Sociologist complexity.haikolietz.de www.haikolietz.de Germany --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups CMNS group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cmns?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. If we accept the excess power he claims, the process must be different from the one he proposes. This is important to me, because I'm trying to identify the Mills catalyst that is making hydrinos in the CF process, which has similar restrictions. An assumption on his part that is unrealistic and impossible does me no good in trying to use his method in this search. Therefore, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening in his cell because the hydrino process appears to be real under these conditions. Only his explanation makes no sense. Regards, Ed On Oct 24, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin. Simply decomposing NaH cannot result in hydrinos because the expected ion is not formed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless someone explicitly looked for it under the right conditions, and didn't find it. On the other hand, as you suggest, if the decomposition occurs on the Ni surface, the Na will have a complex ion state because it now is an absorbed atom, not a free, isolated atom. In addition, the electron that is promoted to a higher level has a place to go, i.e. into the conduction band of the Ni. The only problem is achieving a match between the energy change of the promoted electron and the energy shrinkage of the hydrino electron. I suspect you are needlessly multiplying entities. ;) IOW Mills provides a catalyst that has the necessary property, and gets the expected result. Why is it so hard to accept that he might be right? Granted spectroscopic results indicating presence of Na++ would go a long way to proving him right. Now for a question. Why must the electron that is promoted always come from a level that is observed to form an ion during normal ionization? Personally, I don't think it does, and have previously suggested that Li, which has an x-ray absorption energy of 54.75 eV, may be an example of this. However Na doesn't appear to fit the bill. For example, removal of a 2p electron from Na++ would occur during normal ionization, but is this happening here? No, but then Na++ is not the catalyst either. The whole molecule is the catalyst. BTW the third ionization energy of Na is 71.641 eV, and none of the immediate reactions have enough energy to do this. Only a further reaction of H[1/3] to a lower level would provide such energy. (3-4 yields 95 eV). In other words, why can't a 1s electron be removed from a neutral Na without the 2p electron being affected. After the 1s electron is removed, a 2p electron would take its place and release a small amount of energy as X-rays. This energy would be a byproduct of the process just like the hydrino energy. Do you know how much energy is required to remove a 1s electron from nearly neutral Na? 1073 eV. (K shell x-ray absorption energy). The process gets more unknown because the electron would be promoted into the conduction band, which has a lower energy than vacuum. In other words, perhaps Mills has the right process but is using the wrong electron promotion process to describe it simply because the wrong promotion gives the expected energy. If so, then I think you need to come up with an alternative (and the numbers to back it up). The work function of the metal might be a good place to start, however in this case we're looking at an alloy/compound, which complicates matters. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
OK, you caught me lurking. I am fascinated by this BLP stuff but haven't been following it in detail over the years. Ron Wormus gave this: http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_vid eo_v2.wmv These guys seem competent, respected and well kitted out in their lab. Where is a video or write up for the more technical crowd? 'Heat spike': relative magnitudes 'Small amount of hydrogen': How much? Nickel: How much? Electrical input: etc Temperature of reaction vessel? Did Ni undergo phase change? Big questions: 1) More power is generated than is needed to split water from hydrogen. What about that needed to regenerate the Ni or is it a consumable? 2) Is the Ni H complex somehow more inert at the end of the process? I can't vouch anything for Mills' GUTs because I haven't been exposed to them. It is understood that Chemistry is the physics of the outer electron shell. Processes are expected to be only a few eV. A Chemistry of inner electron shells would be radical and he would be a visionary in the league of a Linus Pauling when he used QM to describe the chemical bond. On this point would the activation energies of these reactions be prohibitively large or slow to start but then rapidly feeding back? Can they do chemical kinetic type experiments to postulate reaction intermediates, you know, what data? Mechanisms. On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. I can't imagine (yet) what the effect of a change in the effective mass would have in a lattice. I guess it wouldn't. I don't know how easy it is to transmute electrons into muons. Any suggestions and write ups? Remi.
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Rest mass muon 100Mev. So that answers a question about them being created. I guess not a possible mechanism. _ From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 16:14 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? OK, you caught me lurking. I am fascinated by this BLP stuff but haven't been following it in detail over the years. Ron Wormus gave this: http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_vid eo_v2.wmv These guys seem competent, respected and well kitted out in their lab. Where is a video or write up for the more technical crowd? 'Heat spike': relative magnitudes 'Small amount of hydrogen': How much? Nickel: How much? Electrical input: etc Temperature of reaction vessel? Did Ni undergo phase change? Big questions: 1) More power is generated than is needed to split water from hydrogen. What about that needed to regenerate the Ni or is it a consumable? 2) Is the Ni H complex somehow more inert at the end of the process? I can't vouch anything for Mills' GUTs because I haven't been exposed to them. It is understood that Chemistry is the physics of the outer electron shell. Processes are expected to be only a few eV. A Chemistry of inner electron shells would be radical and he would be a visionary in the league of a Linus Pauling when he used QM to describe the chemical bond. On this point would the activation energies of these reactions be prohibitively large or slow to start but then rapidly feeding back? Can they do chemical kinetic type experiments to postulate reaction intermediates, you know, what data? Mechanisms. On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. I can't imagine (yet) what the effect of a change in the effective mass would have in a lattice. I guess it wouldn't. I don't know how easy it is to transmute electrons into muons. Any suggestions and write ups? Remi.
[Vo]:Hy-Beam Concept
Did you notice the giant spike in the BLP video? Can this spike (at least in its implications) be bootstrapped into something more useful than excess heat? Maybe. Here is an idea which is based on the possibility that Raney Nickel itself -- when given a positive charge -- will produce energetic below-ground-state hydrinos but not simply for heat; additiionally - it also assumes that Mills is correct about the hydrino hydride. Robin has a proprietary version of a hot nuclear reactor, presumably employing U, which builds on hydrino-tech -- and this concept does also. I do not know the details of Robin's concept, but I'm fairly sure that this is not the same thing. This concept is for a beam-line, i.e. an mildly accelerated beam of hydrinos (the so-called table-top acceleartor) ... which will cause thorium or U targets to fission or to spall, and that integrated subsystem (beam+traget) will serve as a very low cost makeup-neutron source for a subcritical fission reactor using natural unenriched fuel. AFAIK, R. Mills has not modified this viewpoint on hydrino hydride although we do not hear much about this ion any more. This stable-charged species HH is Mills' (misleading) name for (Hy-) which is a proton with one reduced radius orbit electron and one normal orbit electron. Others have commented that this species makes more sense from a QM perspective if both eletrons have the same reduced orbital, but I am not sure if that refined version of HH has been 'borrowed' by RM yet. At any rate, lets say that the HH - hydrino hydride - is a stable charged ion and that the hydrino which forms it can be derived rather simply from the geometric hole of charged Raney catalyst alone, along with a source of hydrogen (and that this is what has provided the spike which is seen by Jansson in the video). OK - sorry to take so long to 'set the table' for this alternative use for hydrinos, but it is not a simple thing to verbalize for the first time. The idea is that pressurized hydrogen gas would pass through a four-layer arrangemeent (thin layers) composed of: 1) a non-conducting (for electrons) ceramic proton conductor 2) which is sandwiched with a layer of Raney catalyst charged + 3) which will then has a layer of hydrino conducting ceramic or plastic (which is semi-conducting for electrons) 4) and finally through a negatively charged open pore metal which converts the hydrinos into HH. From there-on: the HH can be accelerated easily, due to its inherent stable charge, and in a simple RF driven linear accelerator, up to the threshold enegy for creating fission or spallation of a thorium target. We do not know how low that threshold would be for a fast hydrino, of course; yet for this concept to work well - it would need to be low. It is assumed by me now that this threshold will be a much lower energy than for a proton beam, since the high speed hydrino which results when the HH is stripped of the first electron will be poised to occasionally get close to a large nucleus before the second electron is stripped away.These things always reduce to statistical probability. IOW - this situation is impossible to estimate in advance, but the rewards could be immense: think of the CANDU natural U system but as an inherent breeder reactor which does not require heavy water ! and does not need to be refueled often. It could lower the cost of nuclear energy substantially. That would be one way to bootstrap hydrinos from kilowatts to gigawatts. As for cost - Raney nickel is 10 times more costly than uranium; and hydrinos give 100,000 times less energy per reaction (even if that energy from hydrinos is 200 times more than combustion). IOW the hydrino may be very useful in its own right for heating -- but it may be more useful for grid power when bootstrapped into another more energetic 'real hot' system. Jones
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
All looks a bit bogus? 50M$ where's the peer review? I don't mean way-out theories posted to alternative physics type publications (see that's the start of it - conjecture, hypothesis, theory the scientific process) but hardball nuts and bolts applied physics/engineering theory or good chemistry lab procedure. I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated? I'd accept a new type of repeatable experiment, well above noise with or without understanding (theory) but with extensive good procedure in the lab. You know - excess heat, any neutrons or hydrinos (anyone isolated one?), mass specs, spectrographs, looking for reaction intermediates (NMR), electron micrographs ... the whole gamut. You know, what other good (unbiased) people (experimenters) would do in other good labs undertaking the same work. You know, pure natural science procedure, like botanists or rare stamp collectors: What is it? Where can I get more? If I do this, does it do this? Under what conditions? What isn't it - definitely? Can I write this up in such a way that it will pass muster with experts in the field? Can I break it to them gradually in small steps with well known or easily repeatable experiments? Have I got a misconception somewhere? Can I get a discussion with both True Believers and Pathological Sceptics? Is the argument moving anywhere, or does it just remain polarised camps for decades never hitting mainstream? Is it getting hyped for no real data or progress? Who's on board, are their intentions pure or is it a snake oil bubble? Did I create a monster with lots of hangers on and should I say as much to protect what little might have been good work initially? Do I distance myself from others in the field? Peer review and research ethics. _ From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 16:17 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Rest mass muon 100Mev. So that answers a question about them being created. I guess not a possible mechanism. _ From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 16:14 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? OK, you caught me lurking. I am fascinated by this BLP stuff but haven't been following it in detail over the years. Ron Wormus gave this: http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_vid eo_v2.wmv These guys seem competent, respected and well kitted out in their lab. Where is a video or write up for the more technical crowd? 'Heat spike': relative magnitudes 'Small amount of hydrogen': How much? Nickel: How much? Electrical input: etc Temperature of reaction vessel? Did Ni undergo phase change? Big questions: 1) More power is generated than is needed to split water from hydrogen. What about that needed to regenerate the Ni or is it a consumable? 2) Is the Ni H complex somehow more inert at the end of the process? I can't vouch anything for Mills' GUTs because I haven't been exposed to them. It is understood that Chemistry is the physics of the outer electron shell. Processes are expected to be only a few eV. A Chemistry of inner electron shells would be radical and he would be a visionary in the league of a Linus Pauling when he used QM to describe the chemical bond. On this point would the activation energies of these reactions be prohibitively large or slow to start but then rapidly feeding back? Can they do chemical kinetic type experiments to postulate reaction intermediates, you know, what data? Mechanisms. On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. I can't imagine (yet) what the effect of a change in the effective mass would have in a lattice. I guess it wouldn't. I don't know how easy it is to transmute electrons into muons. Any suggestions and write ups? Remi.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. MC: But He is not a catalyst, it used as a chemically inert heat transfer medium. When the reaction fires, undoubtedly some He will be ionized and the H atoms around, may contribute to the energy yield. That is not unfortunate, it is just a sideshow. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. Ah, but as a compound those electrons are in place. The riddle here is that Na in a compound does not appear to manifest the required energy hole. The molecule may thermally dissociate, with the H taking back it electron. Where is the energy to ionize the Na as it separates from the H? If Na can act as a catalyst during the separation with only thermal energy, then the resonant raansfer phenomenon as used/described by Mills apparently has new aspects. Ignoring this detail, and regarding the H[1/3] rpoduct of the reaction, then a 'conventional' hydrino catalyst has appeared and can act with any H around. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. MC: agreed, I have traouble understanding these chemical equations. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases, the first resonant energy dump into the hole (which in this case is 54.35 eV), and the second phase release, which is likely in the form of kinetic energy. However don't mistake the 54.35 eV on the left as external input to the reaction. It isn't. (it's just a quantity of -54.35 eV that Mills has transferred from the right hand side of the equation to the left hand side). What he should have done was: NaH - Na++ + 2 e- -54.35 eV + H[1/3] + 108.8 eV (note that the net on the right hand side is 54.45 eV) This makes it obvious that 54.35 eV is needed to break up the molecule, while the shrinkage yields a total of 108.8 eV. After the Hydrino forming reaction is complete, there is still free Na++ in the environment, and when this reacquires its missing electrons and recombines with a free H atom, to form a new molecule of NaH, a total of 54.35 eV is released. So in total for the two reactions (23 24) we get 54.45 (from 23) and 54.35 (from 24) = 108.8, which is precisely the total released during Hydrino formation. To make a long story short, when the Hydrino forms, part of the energy released is stored in chemical form (Na++ etc.) and part is released directly to the environment. The part stored in chemical form is then shortly (and separately) also released to the environment as per equ. 24. MC: That helps a bit, Robin, but where does the 54.45 eV come from? The thermal input from the heater does not seem enough, and there is no ionization field as in the microwave cell. Yet the DSC plot clearly shows something happening. Regards, Mike Carrell [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. Regards, Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin. Simply decomposing NaH cannot result in hydrinos because the expected ion is not formed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless someone explicitly looked for it under the right conditions, and didn't find it. On the other hand, as you suggest, if the decomposition occurs on the Ni surface, the Na will have a complex ion state because it now is an absorbed atom, not a free, isolated atom. In addition, the electron that is promoted to a higher level has a place to go, i.e. into the conduction band of the Ni. The only problem is achieving a match between the energy change of the promoted electron and the energy shrinkage of the hydrino electron. I suspect you are needlessly multiplying entities. ;) IOW Mills provides a catalyst that has the necessary property, and gets the expected result. Why is it so hard to accept that he might be right? Granted spectroscopic results indicating presence of Na++ would go a long way to proving him right. Now for a question. Why must the electron that is promoted always come from a level that is observed to form an ion during normal ionization? Personally, I don't think it does, and have previously suggested that Li, which has an x-ray absorption energy of 54.75 eV, may be an example of this. However Na doesn't appear to fit the bill. For example, removal of a 2p electron from Na++ would occur during normal ionization, but is this happening here? No, but then Na++ is not the catalyst either. The whole molecule is the catalyst. BTW the third ionization energy of Na is 71.641 eV, and none of the immediate reactions have enough energy to do this. Only a further reaction of H[1/3] to a lower level would provide such energy. (3-4 yields 95 eV). In other words, why can't a 1s electron be removed from a neutral Na without the 2p electron being affected. After the 1s electron is removed, a 2p electron would take its place and release a small amount of energy as X-rays. This energy would be a byproduct of the process just like the hydrino energy. Do you know how much energy is required to remove a 1s electron from nearly neutral Na? 1073 eV. (K shell x-ray absorption energy). The process gets more unknown because the electron would be promoted into the conduction band, which has a lower energy than vacuum. In other words, perhaps Mills has the right process but is using the wrong electron promotion process to describe it simply because the wrong promotion gives the expected energy. If so, then I think you need to come up with an alternative (and the numbers to back it up). The work function of the metal might be a good place to start, however in this case we're looking at an alloy/compound, which complicates matters. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message From: Mike Carrell MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. Why, instead of all by itself is this not evidence that Helium is a catalyst? Mills once consider it to be - has he changed that view?
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:06:07 -0600: Hi Ed, Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. [snip] When an atom/molecule is ionized, the electron *never* goes to infinity, so in that sense, *no* measured (by *anyone*) ionization energy is 100% accurate. However due to the inverse square drop in electric field, the electron doesn't have to be removed very far from an atom before the difference between that and infinity is so small as to be trivial (a few microns is enough). Such distances are easily attained in a plasma. What happens to the electron after that is irrelevant to the process from which the electron originated. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Ed wrote: Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. MC: Which values and which electrons, Ed? In eq. 23, two electrons a 'liberated' to facilitate catalyzing H[1/3]. The physical situation in the cell is NaH resident within the R-Ni mesh, which has an enormous surface area. On the scale of a molecule, why can't the electrons wander away? There are He atoms at 760 Torr hanging around too. The electron bound to the catalyzed H doesn't go anywhere, it just gets closer to its proton. Now I don't yet understand where the energy to ionize the Na comes from, but the DSC plot shows *something* happens. *That* requires eplanation. The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. MC: Are you also including the ionic catalysts in the gas phase cells? If we accept the excess power he claims, the process must be different from the one he proposes. MC: Why so? These solid fuel cells are a continuum with years of work in the electrolytic and gas phases. There are dozens of reports and papers supporting lthe reactions. Good calorimetry has been done iwth microwace excitation by Jonatan Phillips at the University of New Mexico. He was in town during ICCF-14 and slipped in to put up a poster on his calorimetric studies. In an early version of his reports there is a statement that the heat measured implied substantial conversion to H[1/4]. Philipps is currentlyas Distinguished Professor at the Farris center, supported by Los Alamos. He has a long association with Mills. I very strongly suggest that you contact him; he may be very helpful. This is important to me, because I'm trying to identify the Mills catalyst that is making hydrinos in the CF process, which has similar restrictions. MC: H and D atoms can autocatalyze in a three-body reaction because 2H+ provide the 27.2 energy for catalysis. Because it is a three-body reaction, the reaction density is low but favored by H and D rich environments such as the LENR environments. A reactions density too low for optical observation may yet be very intense on the particle-counting scene. An assumption on his part that is unrealistic and impossible does me no good in trying to use his method in this search. Therefore, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening in his cell because the hydrino process appears to be real under these conditions. Only his explanation makes no sense. MC: Granted, there are problems, as with LENR phenomena which don't make sense either. Nature is trying to tell us something. Mike Carrell Regards, Ed On Oct 24, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin. Simply decomposing NaH cannot result in hydrinos because the expected ion is not formed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless someone explicitly looked for it under the right conditions, and didn't find it. On the other hand, as you suggest, if the decomposition occurs on the Ni surface, the Na will have a complex ion state because it now is an absorbed atom, not a free, isolated atom. In addition, the electron that is promoted to a higher level has a place to go, i.e. into the conduction band of the Ni. The only problem is achieving a match between the energy change of the promoted electron and the energy shrinkage of the hydrino electron. I suspect you are needlessly multiplying entities. ;) IOW Mills provides a catalyst that has the necessary property, and gets the expected result. Why is it so hard to accept that he might be right? Granted spectroscopic results indicating presence of Na++ would go a long way to proving him right. Now for a question. Why must the electron that is promoted always come from a level that is observed to form an ion during normal ionization? Personally, I don't think it does, and have previously suggested that Li, which has an x-ray absorption energy of 54.75 eV, may be an example of this. However Na doesn't appear to fit the bill. For example, removal of a 2p electron from Na++ would occur during normal ionization, but is this happening here? No, but then Na++ is not the catalyst either. The whole molecule is the catalyst. BTW the third ionization energy of Na is 71.641 eV, and none of the immediate reactions have enough energy to do this. Only a further
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In a rarefied *ionised plasma gas* the spectrum is continuous. The mean free path is large, the electrons are 'at infinity'. In a free electron gas, in a metal say, there is a band structure. I don't know the context of this particular argument but that is fact. My 2 cents worth. -Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 21:48 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:06:07 -0600: Hi Ed, Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. [snip] When an atom/molecule is ionized, the electron *never* goes to infinity, so in that sense, *no* measured (by *anyone*) ionization energy is 100% accurate. However due to the inverse square drop in electric field, the electron doesn't have to be removed very far from an atom before the difference between that and infinity is so small as to be trivial (a few microns is enough). Such distances are easily attained in a plasma. What happens to the electron after that is irrelevant to the process from which the electron originated. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:36:16 -0400: Hi, [snip] MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. [snip] ..and what conclusion do you draw from this? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:57:47 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] - Original Message From: Mike Carrell MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. Why, instead of all by itself is this not evidence that Helium is a catalyst? Mills once consider it to be - has he changed that view? Not that I am aware of. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
On Oct 25, 2008, at 2:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:06:07 -0600: Hi Ed, Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. [snip] When an atom/molecule is ionized, the electron *never* goes to infinity, so in that sense, *no* measured (by *anyone*) ionization energy is 100% accurate. While that is true, the assumption is that the electron goes to infinity. However due to the inverse square drop in electric field, the electron doesn't have to be removed very far from an atom before the difference between that and infinity is so small as to be trivial (a few microns is enough). Such distances are easily attained in a plasma. What happens to the electron after that is irrelevant to the process from which the electron originated. Suppose an electron goes from a level that requires 20 eV if the electron goes to infinity. Now suppose the electron actually went to a conduction band at 3 eV relative to infinity. Would not 17 eV be required for the process? In contrast, you assume that the final energy of the electron does not matter provided it moves far enough from the original atom before finding another state. If the Mills energy is based on this assumption, then the environment in which the catalyst is located is important. I agree, very little ambiguity is created when the material is in a gas, as is most of the Mills work. However, we are now talking about a solid mixture. I suggest this situation creates great ambiguity and must be acknowledged. In addition, I can imagine a range of energy being available in such a transition if I can arbitrarily choose a distance the electron has to move from its stable state before the energy being used is identified. If this is the nature of the process, what is the point of choosing the ionization energy as a criteria for the hydrino process working? Regards. Ed Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you MC. RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Thank you MC -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 22:49 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? OK, you caught me lurking. I am fascinated by this BLP stuff but haven't been following it in detail over the years. MC: You have a lot of cathing up to do. Go to www.blacklghtopower.com and soak up the tutorial material available; it is quite condensed. The paper I cited will be rough going. Ron Wormus gave this: http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_vid eo_v2.wmv The videos are not very instructive. there are a lot of animations worthy of study. These guys seem competent, respected and well kitted out in their lab. Where is a video or write up for the more technical crowd? MC: Mills magnum opus, all 1000+ pages, can be downloaded from the website, along with selected papers. A list of over 70 journal papers is given, available for a fee from the respctive journals. There is an extensive Power Point briefing, but no narration. The best book I know of about Mills is America's Newton by Tom Stolper, available as a print-on-demand book from Amazon. 'Heat spike': relative magnitudes MC: 50 kW reported, megajoule total heat. 'Small amount of hydrogen': How much? MC: About 5 mg NaOH charge. Nickel: How much? about 1 kg Raynal-Ni, a commercial catalyst Electrical input: etc Energy input for heater1396 kJ, output 2194 kJ, excess 753 kJ [vaporize 8 oz water] Temperature of reaction vessel? Peaked at 600 C Did Ni undergo phase change? Not stated. All reactants resused except added H. Big questions: 1) More power is generated than is needed to split water from hydrogen. What about that needed to regenerate the Ni or is it a consumable? MC: Ni is not a comsumeable. Power needed to operate the recycling process not known, pending engineering studies. The final energy yield is so high that there is reasonable belief that a closed cycle system can be built. Doing such is BLP's current target. 2) Is the Ni H complex somehow more inert at the end of the process? MC: I don't know. Mills states that it is only necessary to add H in the regeneration steps, and that such has been deomostrated by bench chemistry. Whether this holds true in a large scale operating reaction remains to be seen. Surprises can be expected. I can't vouch anything for Mills' GUTs because I haven't been exposed to them. It is understood that Chemistry is the physics of the outer electron shell. Processes are expected to be only a few eV. MC: The shell shrinks during the catalysis process, releasing a large burst of energy. Multiple stages of shrinkage have been observed. A Chemistry of inner electron shells would be radical and he would be a visionary in the league of a Linus Pauling when he used QM to describe the chemical bond. MC: True, and Mills is only dealing with hydrogen [or deuterium]. Mills has developed software for molecular modeling by a subisidary Millsian, Inc. On this point would the activation energies of these reactions be prohibitively large or slow to start but then rapidly feeding back? Can they do chemical kinetic type experiments to postulate reaction intermediates, you know, what data? Mechanisms. MC: The activation enegies are a small fraction of the yield. Once hydrinos are created, they can interact in complex ways. On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. I can't imagine (yet) what the effect of a change in the effective mass would have in a lattice. I guess it wouldn't. I don't know how easy it is to transmute electrons into muons. MC: The mass of the electron does not change; its orbit is closer to the proton. Any suggestions and write ups? MC: See above. Good Hunting. Mike Carrell Remi. This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:Hy-Beam Concept
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:15:05 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Robin has a proprietary version of a hot nuclear reactor, presumably employing U, which builds on hydrino-tech -- and this concept does also. No, my device has nothing to do with fission. It's a pure fusion device. However I have speculated in the past on the use of fast neutrons from the DT reaction to fission U238 directly. I am not the only one to have done this. do not know the details of Robin's concept, but I'm fairly sure that this is not the same thing. This concept is for a beam-line, i.e. an mildly accelerated beam of hydrinos (the so-called table-top acceleartor) ... which will cause thorium or U targets to fission or to spall, and that integrated subsystem (beam+traget) will serve as a very low cost makeup-neutron source for a subcritical fission reactor using natural unenriched fuel. AFAIK, R. Mills has not modified this viewpoint on hydrino hydride although we do not hear much about this ion any more. This stable-charged species HH is Mills' (misleading) name for (Hy-) which is a proton with one reduced radius orbit electron and one normal orbit electron. No, actually both electrons have the same orbit, but their common orbit is sqrt(2) (if I'm not mistaken) larger than that of the electron in Hy. Others have commented that this species makes more sense from a QM perspective if both eletrons have the same reduced orbital, but I am not sure if that refined version of HH has been 'borrowed' by RM yet. Not borrowed at all. It has always been that way. You can find it even in the 1996 version of his book (IIRC). At any rate, lets say that the HH - hydrino hydride - is a stable charged ion and that the hydrino which forms it can be derived rather simply from the geometric hole of charged Raney catalyst alone, along with a source of hydrogen (and that this is what has provided the spike which is seen by Jansson in the video). OK - sorry to take so long to 'set the table' for this alternative use for hydrinos, but it is not a simple thing to verbalize for the first time. The idea is that pressurized hydrogen gas would pass through a four-layer arrangemeent (thin layers) composed of: 1) a non-conducting (for electrons) ceramic proton conductor 2) which is sandwiched with a layer of Raney catalyst charged + 3) which will then has a layer of hydrino conducting ceramic or plastic (which is semi-conducting for electrons) 4) and finally through a negatively charged open pore metal which converts the hydrinos into HH. From there-on: the HH can be accelerated easily, due to its inherent stable charge, and in a simple RF driven linear accelerator, up to the threshold enegy for creating fission or spallation of a thorium target. We do not know how low that threshold would be for a fast hydrino, of course; yet for this concept to work well - it would need to be low. It is assumed by me now that this threshold will be a much lower energy than for a proton beam, since the high speed hydrino which results when the HH is stripped of the first electron will be poised to occasionally get close to a large nucleus before the second electron is stripped away.These things always reduce to statistical probability. If you are counting on the Hydrino undergoing a nuclear reaction, then you don't need to accelerate it to spallation energies. In fact that would be counterproductive, because a collision at that energy would easily remove the Hydrino electron (and thus the shielding you are counting on). I assume you are considering higher energies in order to get the Hydrino closer to the nucleus. However the only thing preventing even a thermal Hydrino from getting close, is it's own size. Speeding it up won't make any difference. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message From: Mike Carrell MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. Why, instead of all by itself is this not evidence that Helium is a catalyst? Helium is *not* a catalyst, it happens to be a chemically inactive good heat transfer medium. He+ is a catalyst, ionized by electric fields in some experiments. The DSC is a sophisticated Calvet calorimeter system which does not ionize He. Mike Carrell
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Remi, I've suggested some homework. When you look at the website, include the mamagement credentials and stay tuned. BLP's next step will require some very serious money and very serious people are interested, despite the turmoil in the financial world. BLP's posture is shifting fromn research to development. Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated, peer reviewed? i.e. can you make the clever people at the Ivy League or Fortune500 labs want to spent their time on it? NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. And such stuff. Like anyone in Physics, Engineering or Chemistry in graduate school or postdoc level could just pick and say I know this to be a fact. I mean I will show you bogus as bogus gets: look up John Searl on Wiki or YouTube. It's done in the style of science to look scientific when it is science fiction and snake oil. I'm not saying Mills is but taking the stance of an impartial observer who knows how difficult it is passing muster with peers at top universities and how important it is to take people's advice over presentation matters. -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 18:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. MC: But He is not a catalyst, it used as a chemically inert heat transfer medium. When the reaction fires, undoubtedly some He will be ionized and the H atoms around, may contribute to the energy yield. That is not unfortunate, it is just a sideshow. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. Ah, but as a compound those electrons are in place. The riddle here is that Na in a compound does not appear to manifest the required energy hole. The molecule may thermally dissociate, with the H taking back it electron. Where is the energy to ionize the Na as it separates from the H? If Na can act as a catalyst during the separation with only thermal energy, then the resonant raansfer phenomenon as used/described by Mills apparently has new aspects. Ignoring this detail, and regarding the H[1/3] rpoduct of the reaction, then a 'conventional' hydrino catalyst has appeared and can act with any H around. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. MC: agreed, I have traouble understanding these chemical equations. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases, the first resonant energy dump into the hole (which in this case is 54.35 eV), and the second phase release, which is likely in the form of kinetic energy. However don't mistake the 54.35 eV on the left as external input to the reaction. It isn't. (it's just a quantity of -54.35 eV that Mills has transferred from the right hand side of the equation to the left hand side). What he should have done was: NaH - Na++ + 2 e- -54.35 eV + H[1/3] + 108.8 eV (note that the net on the right hand side is 54.45 eV) This makes it obvious that 54.35 eV is needed to break up the molecule, while the
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:13:44 +0100: Hi, [snip] On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. [snip] Changing the mass of the electron would be one way of achieving this, but it isn't the only way. Mills achieves it by proposing that trapped photons have the same effect as the creation of extra charge on the nucleus virtual charge if you will. I do it by assuming that the De Broglie wave of the electron can take on a more complex form than a simple circle (e.g. a Lissajous structure) - see my web page ( http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
It's alright Mike I am a seasoned researcher, engineer, been in industry, know the ropes, have some aptitude, done some work, know a few things, seen a few things. People are busy and they don't tend to want to re-learn stuff if it doesn't come to the point soon, claims too much, looks too slick (websites and overheads) and requires outlay to download papers. Remi, I've suggested some homework. When you look at the website, include the mamagement credentials and stay tuned. BLP's next step will require some very serious money and very serious people are interested, despite the turmoil in the financial world. BLP's posture is shifting fromn research to development. Mike Carrell I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated, peer reviewed? i.e. can you make the clever people at the Ivy League or Fortune500 labs want to spent their time on it? NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. And such stuff. Like anyone in Physics, Engineering or Chemistry in graduate school or postdoc level could just pick and say I know this to be a fact. I mean I will show you bogus as bogus gets: look up John Searl on Wiki or YouTube. It's done in the style of science to look scientific when it is science fiction and snake oil. I'm not saying Mills is but taking the stance of an impartial observer who knows how difficult it is passing muster with peers at top universities and how important it is to take people's advice over presentation matters. -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 18:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. MC: But He is not a catalyst, it used as a chemically inert heat transfer medium. When the reaction fires, undoubtedly some He will be ionized and the H atoms around, may contribute to the energy yield. That is not unfortunate, it is just a sideshow. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. Ah, but as a compound those electrons are in place. The riddle here is that Na in a compound does not appear to manifest the required energy hole. The molecule may thermally dissociate, with the H taking back it electron. Where is the energy to ionize the Na as it separates from the H? If Na can act as a catalyst during the separation with only thermal energy, then the resonant raansfer phenomenon as used/described by Mills apparently has new aspects. Ignoring this detail, and regarding the H[1/3] rpoduct of the reaction, then a 'conventional' hydrino catalyst has appeared and can act with any H around. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. MC: agreed, I have traouble understanding these chemical equations. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases, the first resonant energy dump into the hole (which in this case is 54.35 eV), and the second phase release, which is likely in the form of kinetic energy. However don't mistake the 54.35 eV on the left as external input to the reaction. It isn't. (it's just a quantity of -54.35 eV that Mills has transferred from the right hand side of the equation
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Yeah but without getting political (Christ knows, this is the season for it) where is a clear exposition of the experimental facts? Especially with regard to setup, calorimetry, reaction intermediates. Forget the theory, what have they measured and what is the set up? Keep pushing that in the minor mainstream journals - engineering etc. and eventually the mainstream physics department takes it up. Remi, it is all available in the papers, sulch as Commercializable.. It is dense and technical, and presumes the reader has been following BLP developments. Mills has published in the Journal of Applied Physics, but not Nature or Science. Mills' path is commercialization, and for that purpose he spends time with propspective partners and publishes papers and appears at technical conferences in part to bolster his patent position. If the present work goes to a commercial scale, Mills does not need the endorement of the scientific community. Mikie Carrell
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
I'm going to go to bed soon but photons are electrically neutral. Robin, virtual photons shield charge. QED is a *big* subject that's tackled in the graduate school and it's not easily mastered unless one's done the complete groundwork and then specialised. No when revolutions come they start off with simple premises, simple paradoxes and experiments that people can get their heads around. Then the best theoreticians move in once a consensus starts to emerge to make it all cogent. Look at the history of QM from the early experiments and paradoxes (1860-1905) to about 1970. The sheer economy that people like Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Jordan, Pauli, Dirac, Feynman brought to all the disparate phenomena and sheer zoo of stuff is one of the most intellectual Everests ever climbed. People don't throw out the whole lot without good reason. It's a bit like a catchy song that has a 'hook' to rise up above all the other stuff. In my situation a very prominent academic told me some time ago keep it simple. Everything gets scan read to pass muster initially unless one has an air to the good and great and they rate you highly initially. Cock up a few times and you get set back, it takes time to win the confidence back. Barring repeatable experiments and unequivocal data the good people are too busy and just can't be bothered. -Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 23:25 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:13:44 +0100: Hi, [snip] On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. [snip] Changing the mass of the electron would be one way of achieving this, but it isn't the only way. Mills achieves it by proposing that trapped photons have the same effect as the creation of extra charge on the nucleus virtual charge if you will. I do it by assuming that the De Broglie wave of the electron can take on a more complex form than a simple circle (e.g. a Lissajous structure) - see my web page ( http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:57:04 +0100: Hi, [snip] I'm going to go to bed soon but photons are electrically neutral. Robin, virtual photons shield charge. QED is a *big* subject that's tackled in the graduate school and it's not easily mastered unless one's done the complete groundwork and then specialised. That's Mills' hypothesis, not mine. No when revolutions come they start off with simple premises, simple paradoxes and experiments that people can get their heads around. Then the best theoreticians move in once a consensus starts to emerge to make it all cogent. Look at the history of QM from the early experiments and paradoxes (1860-1905) to about 1970. The sheer economy that people like Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Jordan, Pauli, Dirac, Feynman brought to all the disparate phenomena and sheer zoo of stuff is one of the most intellectual Everests ever climbed. People don't throw out the whole lot without good reason. It's a bit like a catchy song that has a 'hook' to rise up above all the other stuff. In my situation a very prominent academic told me some time ago keep it simple. Everything gets scan read to pass muster initially unless one has an air to the good and great and they rate you highly initially. Cock up a few times and you get set back, it takes time to win the confidence back. Barring repeatable experiments and unequivocal data the good people are too busy and just can't be bothered. :) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:32:51 -0400: Hi, [snip] All the energy comes from formation of the Hydrino (108.8 eV worth). MC: But you get that energy *after* the reaction, not *before*, no? Indeed. Why is this a problem? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Remi, Mills' Grand Unified Teory of Classical Physics runs over 1000 pages and is a free download from the website. The latest edition is written more in a textbook style that previous editions. Mills tackles the landmark phenomena of physics in an attempt to show how his orbisphere model works. Some vigorously disagree with this. What remains is the path of discovery and a body of experimetal evidence including the 'solid fuel'. Experiment trumps theory every time. Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? On Wikipedia: Atomic physics Mills says that the electron is an extended particle which in free space is a flat disk of spinning charge[citation needed]. His new model treats the electron, not as a point nor as a probability wave, but as a dynamic two-dimensional spherical shell surrounding the nucleus. The resulting model, called the orbitsphere, provides a fully classical physical explanation for phenomena such as quantization, angular momentum, Bohr magneton. Essentially, the electron orbitsphere is a dynamic spherical resonator cavity that traps photons of discrete frequencies. I remember reading in Feynman vol. 2 that when this kind of model was tried it lead to inconsistencies such as different parts of the electron having relative motions greater than c. Has he done any direct measurement of this? What is the cross-section of free electrons (not my area is PP)? What can he do with the simplest set up to prove this conjecture? I mean that's how research gets done in main universities. It's slow and frustrating but the good people pass through the system eventually. One dots the Is crosses the Ts. What if he has something producing excess heat and then clouds it all with stuff people can't begin to digest? -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 22:05 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Ed wrote: Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. MC: Which values and which electrons, Ed? In eq. 23, two electrons a 'liberated' to facilitate catalyzing H[1/3]. The physical situation in the cell is NaH resident within the R-Ni mesh, which has an enormous surface area. On the scale of a molecule, why can't the electrons wander away? There are He atoms at 760 Torr hanging around too. The electron bound to the catalyzed H doesn't go anywhere, it just gets closer to its proton. Now I don't yet understand where the energy to ionize the Na comes from, but the DSC plot shows *something* happens. *That* requires eplanation. The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. MC: Are you also including the ionic catalysts in the gas phase cells? If we accept the excess power he claims, the process must be different from the one he proposes. MC: Why so? These solid fuel cells are a continuum with years of work in the electrolytic and gas phases. There are dozens of reports and papers supporting lthe reactions. Good calorimetry has been done iwth microwace excitation by Jonatan Phillips at the University of New Mexico. He was in town during ICCF-14 and slipped in to put up a poster on his calorimetric studies. In an early version of his reports there is a statement that the heat measured implied substantial conversion to H[1/4]. Philipps is currentlyas Distinguished Professor at the Farris center, supported by Los Alamos. He has a long association with Mills. I very strongly suggest that you contact him; he may be very helpful. This is important to me, because I'm trying to identify the Mills catalyst that is making hydrinos in the CF process, which has similar restrictions. MC: H and D atoms can autocatalyze in a three-body reaction because 2H+ provide the 27.2 energy for catalysis. Because it is a three-body reaction, the reaction density is low but favored by H and D rich environments such as the LENR environments. A reactions density too low for optical observation may yet be very intense on the particle-counting scene. An assumption on his part that is unrealistic and impossible does me no good in trying to use his method in this search. Therefore, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening in his cell because the hydrino process appears to be real under these conditions. Only his
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:51:51 -0600: Hi, [snip] While that is true, the assumption is that the electron goes to infinity. [snip] Suppose an electron goes from a level that requires 20 eV if the electron goes to infinity. Now suppose the electron actually went to a conduction band at 3 eV relative to infinity. Would not 17 eV be required for the process? Of course, provided that source and destination are very close to one another. However if they are widely separated, then one first needs to invest 20 eV, then later one gets 3 eV back again (usually in photonic form). In contrast, you assume that the final energy of the electron does not matter provided it moves far enough from the original atom before finding another state. Precisely. The path is important to the mechanism. If the Mills energy is based on this assumption, then the environment in which the catalyst is located is important. Agreed. I agree, very little ambiguity is created when the material is in a gas, as is most of the Mills work. However, we are now talking about a solid mixture. But also about the space surrounding it, and even the space between solid particles. Note that the reaction takes place at high temperature, so the NaH once formed is likely to be gaseous. Even with a gaseous NaH however one can still have a surface phenomenon, when a gas molecule approaches the surface. Where I am heading with this is that an H atom formed on the surface may become momentarily freed from that surface, and could react with an NaH molecule floating nearby. I suggest this situation creates great ambiguity and must be acknowledged. I agree that there are still lots of unanswered questions. In addition, I can imagine a range of energy being available in such a transition if I can arbitrarily choose a distance the electron has to move from its stable state before the energy being used is identified. Perhaps because not all radii are equal? IOW the electron can only occupy stable orbitals (or be ionized). If this is the nature of the process, what is the point of choosing the ionization energy as a criteria for the hydrino process working? See above. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
On Oct 25, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Mike Carrell wrote: Ed wrote: Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. MC: Which values and which electrons, Ed? In eq. 23, two electrons a 'liberated' to facilitate catalyzing H[1/3]. The physical situation in the cell is NaH resident within the R-Ni mesh, which has an enormous surface area. On the scale of a molecule, why can't the electrons wander away? There are He atoms at 760 Torr hanging around too. The electron bound to the catalyzed H doesn't go anywhere, it just gets closer to its proton. Now I don't yet understand where the energy to ionize the Na comes from, but the DSC plot shows *something* happens. *That* requires eplanation. The mechanism that Mills proposes requires the catalyst electrons to change their energy by a required and known amount. This being the case, a method is required to calculate how much energy a proposed reaction is able to absorb. The ability to match a calculated energy to a reaction or element is the unique strength of the Mills approach. When Mills bases this match on the ionization energy of an ion, his method breaks down in a solid. While an electron might wonder away, he must know exactly how much energy this wandering absorbs to apply his model. I suggest it is impossible to calculate how much energy is absorbed under the conditions involving NaH. Therefore, he cannot apply his model except by making some unlikely assumptions. This is not to say that nothing happens or that hydrinos are not involved. I'm only suggesting that the details of his mechanism in this case makes no sense. The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. MC: Are you also including the ionic catalysts in the gas phase cells? If we accept the excess power he claims, the process must be different from the one he proposes. MC: Why so? These solid fuel cells are a continuum with years of work in the electrolytic and gas phases. There are dozens of reports and papers supporting lthe reactions. Good calorimetry has been done iwth microwace excitation by Jonatan Phillips at the University of New Mexico. He was in town during ICCF-14 and slipped in to put up a poster on his calorimetric studies. In an early version of his reports there is a statement that the heat measured implied substantial conversion to H[1/4]. Philipps is currentlyas Distinguished Professor at the Farris center, supported by Los Alamos. He has a long association with Mills. I very strongly suggest that you contact him; he may be very helpful. The gas studies clearly support his ideas and are consistent with his calculations using the ionization energy. The problem comes when he tries to apply this idea to solids. While the mechanism may work in solids, his proposed path and the calculated values make no sense. This is important to me, because I'm trying to identify the Mills catalyst that is making hydrinos in the CF process, which has similar restrictions. MC: H and D atoms can autocatalyze in a three-body reaction because 2H+ provide the 27.2 energy for catalysis. Because it is a three- body reaction, the reaction density is low but favored by H and D rich environments such as the LENR environments. A reactions density too low for optical observation may yet be very intense on the particle-counting scene. The infrequent success in CF can be explained if the required and rare catalyst is absent in most studies. This being the case, we need to search for this catalyst. An autocatalyze three-body reaction can ot be the mechanism because H and D are always present, yet the required nuclear product is rare. An assumption on his part that is unrealistic and impossible does me no good in trying to use his method in this search. Therefore, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening in his cell because the hydrino process appears to be real under these conditions. Only his explanation makes no sense. MC: Granted, there are problems, as with LENR phenomena which don't make sense either. Nature is trying to tell us something. Yes, and I'm trying to listen. Ed Mike Carrell Regards, Ed On Oct 24, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Howdy Mike, A concise summary of a thread that has gone past it appointed importance. The bartender at the Dime Box Saloon keeps saying.. showing beats telling. Over in San Antonio where Jim Bowie made a name for himself selling genuine imitation artificial real goldmine maps there used to be a company named Guaranteed 90 day Battery Company. Their scientist claimed the had invented a battery that lasted exactly 91 days. Yes, I know we are not supposed to discourage innovative research... but.. does anyone know if Mills has any kinfolks in San Antonio? Richard Mike Carroll wrote, What remains is the path of discovery and a body of experimetal evidence including the 'solid fuel'. Experiment trumps theory every time.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Remi, Thanks for the calibration and apologies for any apparent condescension. I'm retired afer 38 years as a senior systems engineer for RCA, bridging between the research world and the production world. Regards, Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 6:30 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? It's alright Mike I am a seasoned researcher, engineer, been in industry, know the ropes, have some aptitude, done some work, know a few things, seen a few things. People are busy and they don't tend to want to re-learn stuff if it doesn't come to the point soon, claims too much, looks too slick (websites and overheads) and requires outlay to download papers. Remi, I've suggested some homework. When you look at the website, include the mamagement credentials and stay tuned. BLP's next step will require some very serious money and very serious people are interested, despite the turmoil in the financial world. BLP's posture is shifting fromn research to development. Mike Carrell I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated, peer reviewed? i.e. can you make the clever people at the Ivy League or Fortune500 labs want to spent their time on it? NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. And such stuff. Like anyone in Physics, Engineering or Chemistry in graduate school or postdoc level could just pick and say I know this to be a fact. I mean I will show you bogus as bogus gets: look up John Searl on Wiki or YouTube. It's done in the style of science to look scientific when it is science fiction and snake oil. I'm not saying Mills is but taking the stance of an impartial observer who knows how difficult it is passing muster with peers at top universities and how important it is to take people's advice over presentation matters. -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 18:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. MC: But He is not a catalyst, it used as a chemically inert heat transfer medium. When the reaction fires, undoubtedly some He will be ionized and the H atoms around, may contribute to the energy yield. That is not unfortunate, it is just a sideshow. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. Ah, but as a compound those electrons are in place. The riddle here is that Na in a compound does not appear to manifest the required energy hole. The molecule may thermally dissociate, with the H taking back it electron. Where is the energy to ionize the Na as it separates from the H? If Na can act as a catalyst during the separation with only thermal energy, then the resonant raansfer phenomenon as used/described by Mills apparently has new aspects. Ignoring this detail, and regarding the H[1/3] rpoduct of the reaction, then a 'conventional' hydrino catalyst has appeared and can act with any H around. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. MC: agreed, I have traouble understanding these chemical equations. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases, the
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Oct 25, 2008, at 2:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:06:07 snip. Would not 17 eV be required for the process? In contrast, you assume that the final energy of the electron does not matter provided it moves far enough from the original atom before finding another state. If the Mills energy is based on this assumption, then the environment in which the catalyst is located is important. I agree, very little ambiguity is created when the material is in a gas, as is most of the Mills work. However, we are now talking about a solid mixture. I suggest this situation creates great ambiguity and must be acknowledged. MC: We have be careful about *which* energy. The DSC plot shows that NaH goes strongly exothermic at a critical termperature. There is an endothermic phase change earlier. Is the NaH now a gas? If so, solid considerations no longer apply. Robin has pointed out that the whole molecule is a catalyst, and is listed as such by Mills. It is yet still a fuel, yielding Na++ and H[1/3] above a critical temperature. As Ed notes, there is seeming ambiguity and the exothermic behavior in the DSC plot is part of it. In addition, I can imagine a range of energy being available in such a transition if I can arbitrarily choose a distance the electron has to move from its stable state before the energy being used is identified. If this is the nature of the process, what is the point of choosing the ionization energy as a criteria for the hydrino process working? MC: Mills' language could be more cosistent. I believe he sees a relationship which is difficult to verbalize using the accustomed language of physics. Energy hole is a bit of jargon which representes a very complex situation. He has stated that the RT catalysis can be triggerd by any combination of ions and energies which create the resonant receptor. For example, the ionization of H is 13.6 eV, so a pair of H's can catalyse another H. Mills does not say the H's have to be ionized, as He+ or Ar+. His model has led to a very interesting place. Regards, Mike Carrell
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Mike MC: Helium is *not* a catalyst, it happens to be a chemically inactive good heat transfer medium. He+ is a catalyst, ionized by electric fields in some experiments. The DSC is a sophisticated Calvet calorimeter system which does not ionize He. 'Chemically inactive' is FAR from a resistance to ionization. It is naive to think that He can remain non-ionized in the presence of a strongly ionic solute like NaH. The NaH provides the electric field. For instance, water is not strongly ionic but becomes easily ionized in proximity any weak acid of base. There is no reason to suggest that Helium, while it would be more resistant to transient ionization than water - can remain locally non-ionized when NaH is in proximity, which would have near-fields in excess of the 54.4 eV on a transient timescale. There is no doubt in my mind that He is an active catalyst in the situation mentioned, and I am pretty sure that Mills would not object to that characterization. MC: Jones, you have a point. There are two contexts. The one I was referring to is the DSC scan of Fig 7, in which NaH is first solid and then undergoes an endothermic transition, possibly to a vapor phase. At a higher tempoerature it becomes strongy exothermic. He is present as a heat transfer medium. In the exothermic reaction, He may become ionized and catalyze some of the H in NaH, but if the NaH is itself reacting, the catalyst is more prbably the Na. MC: Much to puzzle over. Mike Carrell Jones This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Remi wrote: snip Barring repeatable experiments and unequivocal data the good people are too busy and just can't be bothered. MC: Yes, and therein lies much of the story of Mills and BLP. Mills is an MD and his approach to physics is audacious and would be forgettable were it not for its explantory power and the experimental trail. Mills has been very open about his work. He has attracted a substantial board of directors and over $60 million of private investment. He has stated that the theoretical work is now complete and the direction will now be to applications and power generation. Accomplishment of a utility scale reactor with a water-fuel input will be big news. Mills' physics, which is consistent over 85 orders of magnitude, will get serious attention. It will then be worthwhile for many people to study. Mike Carrell
[Vo]:NaH - strong and strange
The salt NaH is a strong base, meaning that it normally donates the negative ion H- instead of the proton in liquid solution However, on reading up on it, there is more to it than meets the eye. also despite the combination with the lightest gas, Na with H - the resultant salt NaH is 40% denser than the Na metal, which admittedly is very light, but still... Those two factoids alone should tell you something is unusual with this species. Another unusual and related subject is helium gas as a solvent, since helium is so hydrogen-like. If you think about it - and this suggestion may be way 'off-base' (so to speak) but in the event NaH were to begin to ionize and once in a while act like an acid, instead of a base when solvated by helium- i.e. occasionally donate the proton - then here is the beauty of it (in the context of BLP). Caveat: I cannot find a reference (after a half hour search) that this has been documented to occur in a statistically relevant fashion, so maybe it is your basic no-go. Anyway - If the proton did occasionally ionize instead of the anion with an inert gas, and assuming this could happen fairly often: then the proton is poised to temporarily grab one of the helium electrons for even a very short time, sub-nanosecond - then you have transient monatomic hydrogen within a helium catalyst at a resonant level - made to order for hydrinos. The race is on. The only question then: is the time frame short enough for 'shrinkage' to happen statistically often (before the proton returns home) ? IOW is the shrinkage reaction extremely fast, relative to reversible ionization ? Dunno. This could all be about time on the quantum level... but the fact that there is the energy anomaly Mike mentioned with the simple mix of the two - that alone raises the possibility, and makes it worth investigating all the angles, no matter how seemingly bizarre, no? Jones
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
MC: Granted, there are problems, as with LENR phenomena which don't make sense either. Nature is trying to tell us something. Ed: Yes, and I'm trying to listen. In the same msg, Ed also writes: This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. As Sherlock once said, you see Watson, but you do not observe. I have to wonder that if you came across something that contradicted a 'simple fact of nature', would you be able to observe it? It's just a 'gut feeling', but I sense that all of science has been developed with observations of particles and/or energy (what ever those things really are) in their incoherent, non-resonant interactions; the bulk properties and interactions. When you have a large number of oscillators, of differing non-resonant frequencies, in a somewhat confined area, you have the 'standard model'. When conditions are such that a small number of those oscillators, in a local area, somehow all come into resonance (sub/super harmonic relation), then throw the standard model out the freaking window -- shit hits the fan -- duck and cover -- can you say 'anomalous' -- oh dam, I must have done something wrong, those numbers just don't make sense! :-) It's so easy to dismiss it as 'error' when you've been conditioned to know what to expect... I remember reading somewhere, The properties of the ultra pure are, in many cases, quite different from those of just the pure. Nature does not reveal her innermost secrets easily... And I will add, and only when VERY specific conditions are met. -Mark No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release Date: 10/24/2008 6:08 PM
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Edmund Storms wrote: The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. Brilliant observation, Ed. Perhaps what Randell is doing is substituting a hole for an electron. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
