[Vo]:A few comments by Celani about the demonstration
I spoke with Celani about the Rossi demonstration. He attended the demo, as you see in the video. He will describe it formally but I asked for an informal sense of it, and whether he found it convincing. He said a few things which I describe here along with some of my comments: The demonstration and presentation were somewhat chaotic, with many people asking questions and a spirited discussion underway (as you see in the video even if you do not speak Italian). It was hard to concentrate on the actual test that was underway. [My comment: that's not anyone's fault. You cannot do a definitive test in front of 50 physicists, nor should you try.] They had difficulty starting up the reaction. Celani was personally disappointed and I think upset that they prevented him from using the particle detector he brought along. He said, what is the point of calling in scientists if you don't let them do independent testing. He said the vapor regime is complicated and difficult to judge. I pointed out that with the power input the water should only be 20 deg C warmer, so even if there was wet steam that is still evidence of considerable excess heat. He agreed. He said the ability to generate steam means the temperature is high which is very important from a technological point of view. But for a demonstration of this nature it would be easier to evaluate the result if they would increase the flow rate and keep the water temperature below 90 deg C. The calorimetry becomes much more complicated above that temperature. [My comment: good point, and that is what they plan to do with the 1 MW reactor test.] I wouldn't say Celani considers that a reason to doubt so much as a reason to say the results may be a large approximation. You need to know more before you can conclude it was 4 kW excess or 12 kW excess. [True. I am not qualified to determine if steam is wet or dry, but I think a reasonable default position is to assume that Dr. Galantini knows what he is doing, and he picked the right instrument. If it turns out he does not know what he is doing, I have committed a Fallacious Appeal to Authority, and the excess is much lower than 12 kW, but still significant.] He said he did not look at the end of the hose in the sink in the bathroom, but he did note that it was making a lot of noise from steam. I think any noise rules out the diverted water stream hypothesis. It is a distinct noise, after all, and a flow of 0.3 L per minute of warm water makes no noise at all at the end of the hose. We will know a lot more tomorrow, but took the opportunity to ask him a few questions about issues that have been discussed here. Regarding the academic caution expressed by Levi, David Nagel, and now Celani in his conversation with me, let me put myself in their positions. I know how to speak academese even though I am not a member of that tribe. I might tell a reporter it is not fully convincing. I would have some specifics in mind: * They have not proved beyond any conceivable doubt that it is far beyond the limits of chemistry. * They have not allowed independent experts to look at the transmuted copper. * They have not allowed many independent tests yet. * There are still a few plausible hypotheses floating around about how it might be faked. I do not take them seriously, but any plausible hypothesis deserves to be tested. It would be unreasonable to test every silly notion that pops into the minds of pathological skeptics, such as the idea that hundreds of rats drank the water in Mizuno's heat-after-death event, or the notion that Rossi has invisible hidden wires or chemical fuel in the cell. You have to draw the line at plausible, grown-up hypotheses. Those are not complaints. Rossi, Levi and the others did a lot. They are doing more. All in good time these others steps can be done, and I think they will be done. But it would be wise to reserve a small slice of doubt until then. Why should we jump to the conclusion this is real? I can't see any benefit to that. I would not jump to the opposite conclusion that it can't be real, so it must be fraud. There is no harm in saying: It looks good so far, and I cannot think of any reason to doubt it, but let's go through a series of steps that will confirm it beyond any doubt. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Video Clips of Ferrite Incandescence.
--- On Fri, 2/4/11, Harvey Norris harv...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Harvey Norris harv...@yahoo.com Subject: [Vo]:Video Clips of Ferrite Incandescence. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 3:54 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RKZCPSvoQk 2.8 DCA 3.6 DCA 3/8ths width ferrite incandescence with corresponding 3 phase AC inputs. The top red meters are stator line amperages and the middle grey meters the phase amperages. In three phase for a delta delivery, the stator lines contain 1.71 or (sq rt 3) times the phase amperages. Yet at 1:41 in the videos the sum of the stator lines @ 8.54A EQUALS the sum of the phase amperages. Thus for this example using summed amperages of the phases themselves; ~70% more current exists as the effect of RESONANT RISE OF AMPERAGE. It is these outer delta AC currents that become the source of the DC currents across the ferrite by intervening rectifications of the three phase AC source currents. Note that the ferrite also has a non-linear resistance, it instead looses resistance with the amount of heat generated. At the start of video 25VDC enabled 2.8 A or an acting resistance of 8.9 ohms. At the ending of video 20VDC enables 3.6A or 5.5 ohms. The reactance of the megacable spiralled delivery lines are 2.3 mh@ 465 hz or 6.7 ohms. HDN Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/
[Vo]:Dressing up in Madras
India's population is ~1.2 billion, slightly behind China. This is both a curse and perhaps a small blessing - if they can take advantage of the opportunity now presenting itself. The blessing: They have more 'honors students' than we have students. And ten times more in math and engineering. There is a lot of potential brain-power, mixed with overwhelming poverty, resulting in an extreme level of motivation for an energy breakthrough - and LENR is the ideal technology for that country. With an energy breakthrough in India, wealth will follow. In the 21st century: wealth = energy. Does anyone doubt that? Side note: if you are old enough, you probably remember the preppy clothing style popular in Colleges in the 1960s - influenced by the bright plaid light cotton known as Madras. That was the former name of the city now called Chennai. I kinda thought that I missed that style, in a way, until I had a look at google images. Now it looks pretty silly, but that is a side effect of 50 years of maturing taste. http://images.google.com/images?hl=ensource=imghpbiw=1333bih=721q=madras +pants+for+mengbv=2aq=1aqi=g2g-m1aql=oq=madras+pants From the Deccan Times Chennai, Feb. 6: It may be still in the realm of science fiction for many but a nanotechnology expert has claimed that green, clean, safe and cheap energy can be produced using a low energy nuclear reactor in room temperature. One does not need materials like uranium, plutonium or thorium or for that matter any kind of reactors, said Prof David Nagel, research professor, micro and nano technologies, George Washington University, USA. There will not be any radiation or radioactive waste in this mode of power generation. Prof Nagel was addressing students and faculty attending the tutorial school on Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions in IIT Madras on Saturday. According to him, two Italian scientists, Prof Sergio Focardi and Andrea Rossi, had demonstrated a 10 KW LENR reactor at Bologna on January 14. But the International Patent Office rejected their application for patent because the authorities were not convinced about the feasibility of the LENR, he said. Scientists who have made breakthroughs in LENR are reluctant to come out in the open because of the fear that they may be deprived of their intellectual property rights.
Re: [Vo]:A few comments by Celani about the demonstration
Reasonable doubts must be addressed, yes, especially if they are original, specific, and suggest possible hazards to people, as is the case with my vision that there may be electrolysis of cooling water via leaks in the cooling tube next to the Ni reactor tube and its heating resistors, if there are also any microleaks into the heater wires -- what is the mass, area, and composition of the wires in the resistors, and the thickness and composition of their insulation? Composition and insulation of the wires to the heater resistors? Voltage and amperage of the heater input power -- any fluctuations? Any pressure fluctuations inside the cell? Has the output temperature water temperature been decisively monitored for hours, days, weeks, months -- any H2 or O2 -- any electric currents or potentials in the output water? Any increase in impurities in the output water over time, compared to the input water? What was the resistor wire welding failure in the Jan. 14 demo? Electrochemical corrosion? Any plans to analyze the Ni powder for tritium, as per TK Sankaranarayanan et al, 1995 -- which took days to load H2 gas into .125 to .380 mm Ni wires 35 to 50 cm long, electrically heated to 200 - 300 C -- about 40 - 500 mg Ni -- H2 pressures about 40 - 340 cm silicone oil -- were there any attempted replications, or searches for deuterium or helium 3 and 4? This may be the best study for amateurs to share attempts to replicate -- the use of pyrex or quartz tubes allows continuous recording of images of a tiny experiment in IR, visible, and UV light, as well as ionizing radiation and neutrons, acoustic signals, and use of CR-39 -- small tubes at various internal pressures could be very thin, while two concentric tubes allow precise real-time heat output studies with water or another transparent liquid or gas through the cooling space -- a standard device could be used by many groups at once, with real-time data and images in public view on the Net, along with modest requests for donations, a public record of all expenses, and a permanent archive of comments. lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Sankaranarevidencefo.pdf 8 pages
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Energy has no knowledge of Rossi, and Leonardo Company is defunct
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Sun, 6 Feb 2011 02:16:19 -0500: Hi, [snip] they could crash spectacularly or that in hot weather with low air pressure they could not fly. [snip] If you look at a barometer you will see that hot weather almost invariably comes with high (not low) air pressure. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:A few comments by Celani about the demonstration
fromRich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com to h-ni_fus...@yahoogroups.com, regsoft h...@brillouinenergy.com, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com, Rich Murray rmfor...@comcast.net, Sterling D. Allen sterlin...@pureenergysystems.com, michael barron mhbar...@gmail.com, lit...@earthtech.org, mari...@earthtech.org, puth...@earthtech.org dateSun, Feb 6, 2011 at 1:01 PM subject Re: [H-Ni_Fusion] Re: failures of H-Ni cold fusion tests with water cooling -- possible heat and O2 and H2 release via electrolysis by up to 220 V AC from shorts and deposited metals with danger of shocks and explosions: Rich Murray 2011.02.05 1:01 PM (23 minutes ago) Thanks for frank, terse comments -- I hadn't considered the 80 bar H2 pressure in the Jan. 14 demo -- that could well have stressed the cooling tube, the heater resisters, and the Ni rods, especially with up to 1000 C temperatures -- steam can diffuse against the high temperature and pressure gradients and so enter cracks to electrolyze into H2 and O2 to contribute to complex electrically conducting chemistry, using the plentiful Ni, Cu, Cr, Fe (stainless steel) and other impurity metals, perhaps even carbon and silicon -- who knows without detailed investigations? If conducting paths start to open up within the cell from the heater electric power input, they will evolved and expand complexly. The H2 that Rossi thinks is being absorbed into the Ni nanopowder may in part be leaking into the coolant water output, while in the cell forming complex chemical particles and films, and dissolved compounds (including gases) -- an extremely messy experiment... Rossi hasn't so far provided any details about his explosions... What happens in your brillouinenergy.com experiments? Rich On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 10:40 AM, regsoft h...@brillouinenergy.com wrote: Rich, It is always good to see an unbiased / sincere post on LENR. With such a lengthy ramble I will only respond to your obviously irrelevant concerns over H2O at 0 PSIG leaking into a cell pressurized to over 1000 PSIG with hydrogen. .
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Energy has no knowledge of Rossi, and Leonardo Company is defunct
On Feb 6, 2011, at 10:34 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: If you look at a barometer you will see that hot weather almost invariably comes with high (not low) air pressure. It is just the opposite here in the far north. High pressure areas produce clear skies here, but the high air pressure is due to the cold of the high pressure area, which often originates in the north over land or ice. The clear skies don't provide enough solar energy to make things hot and therefore humid overcast and cool, except in summer when the skies are clear in the morning during high pressures but cumulus clouds and cooling showers can form in the late afternoon. Low pressure often involves being in the center of humid low pressure cyclonic winds, often originating over the oceans, and which bring warming weather, in the winter warming back up to near freezing, bringing overcast, clouds and snow. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
RE: [Vo]:Defkalion Energy has no knowledge of Rossi, and Leonardo Company is defunct
From Jed: ... I think that he [Levi] and other observers who have seen the test are convinced, but you have to calibrate his way of talking. Academic scientists tend to hedge everything they say so much it sometimes sounds as if they lack confidence. It is a style of speaking. You don't say I am sure of X. You put it in the passive voice and wrap it in semantic cotton wool: strong indications with reliable instrumentation that give a reliable approximation within the known error bounds that X is highly probable . . . Last week 31 I touched on some of these linguistic issues out in a local Yahoo Science Fiction literary group where I'm an active participant. Many who belong to this yahoo group tend to be very skeptical of cold fusion claims. As such it's occasionally challenging for me to get the relevant points across before some self-appointed skeptic decides it's time to set me straight concerning the truth about cold fusion. Here's a portion of what I posted: Excerpt: Before concluding my on-going report on the Rossi/Hyde saga, I feel compelled to add a final point in regards to the scientific lingo often employed by scientists and professors, including those who independently analyzed Focardi Rossi's prototype. Reports of these kinds tend to be encapsulated in both turgid and emotionally unsatisfying ways, as read by Mr. Joe Six-Pack. Linguistic protocols and formulaic rituals must be observed, scrupulously. And always, always, ALWAYS, at the end of the report, clearly state that more thorough testing is warranted. In regards to the Focardi-Rossi demonstration, one is not likely to read a scientific report couched in Six-Pack language such as: HOLY MERDA! Rossi's four foot tin foiled-wrapped stogie really smokes! It was like watching picante bologna strapped on top of a solid fuel booster! What a blast! Give'em hell, Rossi! One is more likely to read carefully parsed scientific-jargon-speak coached in phrases such as the following, as written by David J Nagel, who is a prominent cold fusion researcher residing out of George Washington University: Given the measured input and output temperatures, that flow rate, and a measurement that the steam was dry, it is easy to compute that the device delivered over 10kW of thermal energy to the water. The data indicate power and energy gains of more than 10. That amplification is what the International Thermonuclear Experimental reactor (ITER) seeks to achieve in about a decade for well over $10B. See: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NagelDJchecklistf.pdf Give'em hell, Rossi! I divided my yahoo essay into four separate posts. I think (I hope) the contents are still reasonably accurate, considering the timeframe in which it was written . Dr Rossi and Mr. Hyde, PART 1 of 4 - Warp 7 NOW, Scottie! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MadSF/message/5396 Dr Rossi and Mr. Hyde, PART 2 of 4 - Say What? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MadSF/message/5397 Dr Rossi and Mr. Hyde, PART 3 of 4 - Mr. Hyde, I presume http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MadSF/message/5398 Dr Rossi and Mr. Hyde, PART 4 of 4 - Holey Bologna, Batman! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MadSF/message/5399 So far, no one has cared to respond. That's a tad unusual. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:group seeks to discredit Rossi
Based on this google translation it seems the Italian Committee Against the Claims of the Paranormal is seeking to discredit Rossi et al. http://translate.google.ca/translate?js=nprev=_thl=enie=UTF-8layout=2eotf=1sl=ittl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.net1news.org%2Fcorsa-alla-fusione-fredda-litalia-passa-il-testimone-alla-grecia.html http://tinyurl.com/6za8ler harry
Re: [Vo]:group seeks to discredit Rossi
I just posted this comment on 22passi.blogspot.com Join vort...@eskimo.com for posts on all sides of this and similar claims. I am Rich Murray, rmfor...@gmail.com , and have suggested Feb. 5 and 6 that the Rossi device may have internal leaks that cause the electric heater to short out to the output water, electrolyzing water into hydrogen and oxygen in the cell and messing up the heat measurements, while creating the hazards of severe electric shock and explosions. On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Harry Veeder hlvee...@yahoo.com wrote: Based on this google translation it seems the Italian Committee Against the Claims of the Paranormal is seeking to discredit Rossi et al. http://translate.google.ca/translate?js=nprev=_thl=enie=UTF-8layout=2eotf=1sl=ittl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.net1news.org%2Fcorsa-alla-fusione-fredda-litalia-passa-il-testimone-alla-grecia.html http://tinyurl.com/6za8ler harry
