Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
Am 17.09.2011 02:05, schrieb Terry Blanton: Exactly the suggestion I made in March, duplicating Naudin's Moller's Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) setup: http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/index.htm sigh T Hey, this looks interesting! I do however not believe the ZPE theory. I dont think energy can come out of vacuum. The surplus energy -if there is any- could come from LENR reactions. Apparently this method is repeatable and works in a stable sustained and controllable way and that makes it very interesting.
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
Am 17.09.2011 10:05, schrieb Peter Heckert: Am 17.09.2011 02:05, schrieb Terry Blanton: Exactly the suggestion I made in March, duplicating Naudin's Moller's Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) setup: http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/index.htm sigh T Hey, this looks interesting! I do however not believe the ZPE theory. I dont think energy can come out of vacuum. The surplus energy -if there is any- could come from LENR reactions. Apparently this method is repeatable and works in a stable sustained and controllable way and that makes it very interesting. BTW, around anno 1950 there where special hydrogen-iron resistors available. These are iron filaments in a hydrogen athmosphere. These where used for current limiting. When the Iron filament reaches a temperature above some 100 degrees, the resistance will go up and the current will be limited. I wonder if anybody has made precise calometry for such a device. Maybe the resistance rise come from overheating by LENR effects? These devices are still available at ebay: http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_from=R40_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313_nkw=eisen+wasserstoff_sacat=See-All-Categories (Eisen Wasserstoff Widerstand is the german expression for Iron-Hydrogen-Resistor) Should I get such a beast and try it? ;-) Peter
RE: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
-Original Message- From: Peter Heckert BTW, around anno 1950 there where special hydrogen-iron resistors available. These are iron filaments in a hydrogen atmosphere. These where used for current limiting. When the Iron filament reaches a temperature above some 100 degrees, the resistance will go up and the current will be limited. I wonder if anybody has made precise calorimetry for such a device. Should I get such a beast and try it? ;-) Definitely you should try a simple test, Peter ! To wit: Iron is also a prominent catalyst in Mills CQM theory because of the energy hole that occurs when the first three ionized electrons are temporarily removed - which adds up to 54.742 eV. A perfect fit would be 54.4 eV (4Ry) but the vibration modes of a hot filament should present the proper kind of catalytic hole on occasion, and the result should be UV emission. Most UV at that level is downshifted by the glass, but you could possibly see fluorescence in a darkened room for a few seconds, when everything is switched off - that is - if there is a Mills' reaction. If so, then proceed to calorimetry :-) Jones attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
At 01:22 PM 9/16/2011, Peter Heckert wrote: Possibly he will not create overpressure in the 1MW system. We dont know. Only Rossi knows. So if you have the guts and go into this big 1 MW box under full operation then your health and live is subject to god's grace and Rossis skills if something unexpected happens. I would not go inside after having seen the video Simon Knight September 16th, 2011 at 9:27 AM Dear Andrea Rossi, Before the 1MW plant is taken into operation would it be necessary to have the system certified according to the ASME Pressure Vessel Code? Kind regards, Simon Dear Simon Knight: We are studying the issue. Warm Regards, A.R. [ Says several times that Bologna and Uppsala do NOT have eCats, and that the Bologna contract has NOT yet started. ] Alessandro Casali September 16th, 2011 at 8:09 AM the new test planned with Upsalla University is a great news, do you think it will be done by the end of September? I think it will be done in October. Warm Regards, A.R. [ and to an earlier question : ] 8- I ddid NOT say that we are already working, I said the first steps have been made: signed the contract and some other thing. The proper RD with the University of Bologna did not start yet. [ and ] Andrea Rossi September 16th, 2011 at 3:07 AM Dear Pietro F: Yes we have very big financial problems, because I have spent on this all the money I had, and sold all I had, also because the Customer we counted on could not maintain his financial engagements and this has left the ship in the middle of the ocean without oil for the engine. But we are going through, the 1 MW plant will be ready for the end of October for the test anyway, we are close. Yes, we will organize e new very important test in Uppsala, and this time we will make the calorimetric measurements in a new way, suggested by the Professors: the steam circuit will be a closed circuit with a condenser and will exchange heat with a flow of liquid water: basically, we will have a primary circuit of the E-Cat and a secondary circuit through a radiator, and the energy will be calculated not from the delta T of the input/output of the reactor, but from the delta T of the secondary, which will exchange the heat by means of a heat exchanger. Of course the calculation of the energy produced will be in our disadvantage, because the heat exchange system has not a 100% efficiency, but I can accept it, because our energy gain is very high. The operation will be made also with self sustaining mode. We are already making this test in our factory, and the results of the energy gain are very close to the measurements we made in past. I am very satisfied. Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Dear Andrea Rossi, Before the 1MW plant is taken into operation would it be necessary to have the system certified according to the ASME Pressure Vessel Code? Kind regards, Simon Dear Simon Knight: We are studying the issue. Warm Regards, A.R. Translation: Oh crap! We were not aware of the American Society of Mechanical Engingeers! I'll go buy the book tomorrow. :-) T
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Dear Pietro F: . . . Professors: the steam circuit will be a closed circuit with a condenser and will exchange heat with a flow of liquid water: basically, we will have a primary circuit of the E-Cat and a secondary circuit through a radiator, and the energy will be calculated not from the delta T of the input/output of the reactor, but from the delta T of the secondary, which will exchange the heat by means of a heat exchanger. . . . A.R. Exactly the suggestion I made in March, duplicating Naudin's Moller's Atomic Hydrogen Generator (MAHG) setup: http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/index.htm sigh T
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
On Sep 16, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: Andrea Rossi September 16th, 2011 at 3:07 AM Dear Pietro F: Yes we have very big financial problems, because I have spent on this all the money I had, and sold all I had, also because the Customer we counted on could not maintain his financial engagements and this has left the ship in the middle of the ocean without oil for the engine. But we are going through, the 1 MW plant will be ready for the end of October for the test anyway, we are close. Yes, we will organize e new very important test in Uppsala, and this time we will make the calorimetric measurements in a new way, suggested by the Professors: the steam circuit will be a closed circuit with a condenser and will exchange heat with a flow of liquid water: basically, we will have a primary circuit of the E- Cat and a secondary circuit through a radiator, and the energy will be calculated not from the delta T of the input/output of the reactor, but from the delta T of the secondary, which will exchange the heat by means of a heat exchanger. Of course the calculation of the energy produced will be in our disadvantage, because the heat exchange system has not a 100% efficiency, but I can accept it, because our energy gain is very high. The operation will be made also with self sustaining mode. We are already making this test in our factory, and the results of the energy gain are very close to the measurements we made in past. I am very satisfied. Warm Regards, A.R. Thanks for posting this interesting and exciting news! A heat exchange system can be very accurate. The advantage is it does not matter what happens to the cooling water beyond the bounds where the thermometers are located, provided it comes back cool enough and with enough flow to do the job. To obtain an accurate power integration takes an accurate flow meter in the cooling water stream with time stamped data taken frequently. There is a similar requirement to frequently measure the temperature and flow output of the E-cat water from the heat exchanger. Some good insulation is required for accurate data - but reliable data only accurate to 10% would hopefully be way more than enough to show the value of the device. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
2011/9/17 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net: A heat exchange system can be very accurate. The advantage is it does not matter what happens to the cooling water beyond the bounds where the thermometers are located, provided it comes back cool enough and with enough flow to do the job. To obtain an accurate power integration takes an accurate flow meter in the cooling water stream with time stamped data taken frequently. There is a similar requirement to frequently measure the temperature and flow output of the E-cat water from the heat exchanger. Some good insulation is required for accurate data - but reliable data only accurate to 10% would hopefully be way more than enough to show the value Too bad, Rossi's method was way better, because it can give, especially with this new version, much higher accuracy with much less efforts. Calibration of this system alone will take days! Only thing, what was required, was that people understand the concept of steam pressure. Since people do not usually have experience from autoclaves, espresso machines and Fukushima's water boilers, they might have hard time to understand how it is possible that steam cleaner produces 110°C steam. I wonder if there is a heat exchanger that superheats the steam?! Anyway there was nothing wrong with the method, but independent scientists just could not come up with the idea that it is possible to do steam sparging calorimetry and measure the liquid water content of outlet with simple water trap. –Jouni
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
On Sep 16, 2011, at 5:01 PM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/9/17 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net: A heat exchange system can be very accurate. The advantage is it does not matter what happens to the cooling water beyond the bounds where the thermometers are located, provided it comes back cool enough and with enough flow to do the job. To obtain an accurate power integration takes an accurate flow meter in the cooling water stream with time stamped data taken frequently. There is a similar requirement to frequently measure the temperature and flow output of the E-cat water from the heat exchanger. Some good insulation is required for accurate data - but reliable data only accurate to 10% would hopefully be way more than enough to show the value Too bad, Rossi's method was way better, because it can give, especially with this new version, much higher accuracy with much less efforts. Calibration of this system alone will take days! Hundreds of man days have been wasted. If the job were done right the first time a lot of labor and money could have been saved, not only for Rossi and his associates, but for Rossi himself. Not only that, very high quality and credible black box calorimetry might have been obtained absolutely free from companies like EarthTech International: http://www.earthtech.org/ What a waste! There is no common sense in what has happened. There is no good business sense in what happened. What has happened makes no scientific sense either. Rossi could have had millions or billions of development dollars at his disposal with a single high quality public demonstration. If he really is on to something commercially viable then the whole world is suffering because of the delays. This kind of thinking that a few days or even months of calibration is not hugely worthwhile is nonsense. It is perhaps penny wise, but trillion dollar foolish, unless of course, someone knows there is nothing to the claims. Only thing, what was required, was that people understand the concept of steam pressure. Since people do not usually have experience from autoclaves, espresso machines and Fukushima's water boilers, they might have hard time to understand how it is possible that steam cleaner produces 110°C steam. I wonder if there is a heat exchanger that superheats the steam?! Anyway there was nothing wrong with the method, but independent scientists just could not come up with the idea that it is possible to do steam sparging calorimetry and measure the liquid water content of outlet with simple water trap. –Jouni Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
2011/9/17 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net: Hundreds of man days have been wasted. If the job were done right the first time a lot of labor and money could have been saved, not only for Rossi and his associates, but for Rossi himself. Not only that, very high quality and credible black box calorimetry might have been obtained absolutely free from companies like EarthTech International: I wonder how many times I need to say this to you that Rossi invited independent and semi-independent scientist to the demonstrations to do all the measurements they thought to be relevant. He did not participate himself in anyway what all those university professors were doing when they measured the enthalpy with humidity sensor. Indeed DeltaOhm can measure the enthalpy from steam quality as is mentioned in manual, but problem is that steam quality is irrelevant concept, because DeltaOhm does not measure the liquid water content, but it only measures suspended water content of steam (i.e. steam quality that was 98.8%). Rossi only presented June demonstration himself, and he did it exactly as those professors such as Kullander told him to do enthalpy measurements. Indeed, Rossi does not like scientists, and this should be obvious to anyone that Rossi wanted to show with June E-Cat that this method cannot measure enthalpy at all, because it is outright silly to any steam engineer, although method was approved by many scientists and university professors. There were nothing wrong with the setup, but there was just incompetent scientist who were unable to do proper enthalpy measurements. Scientist such as Mats Lewan could have done 20 steam sparging and water trap test in September, but he chose to do only one water trap test. Only one! This tells lots about the level of Rossi's scientist, because Mats was the brightest and the most rigorous scientific star in Bologna. –Jouni Ps. Rossi had scheduled to publish his cold fusion work not before October. Therefore he has not done demonstrations that are not long enough to exclude chemical power sources. If Krivit writes 200 page report about Rossi's sense of humor, it is his problem if he is wasting his time! Same goes for you, Horace!
Re: [Vo]:130C steam : Lotsa Rossi Updates, Running out of Cash?
On Sep 16, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 2011/9/17 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net: Hundreds of man days have been wasted. If the job were done right the first time a lot of labor and money could have been saved, not only for Rossi and his associates, but for Rossi himself. Not only that, very high quality and credible black box calorimetry might have been obtained absolutely free from companies like EarthTech International: Nothing written below changes the truth of what I wrote. There is no common sense in what has happened. There is no good business sense in what happened. What has happened makes no scientific sense either. Rossi could have had millions or billions of development dollars at his disposal with a single high quality public demonstration. If he really is on to something commercially viable then the whole world is suffering because of the delays. This kind of thinking that a few days or even months of calibration is not hugely worthwhile is nonsense. It is perhaps penny wise, but trillion dollar foolish, unless of course, someone knows there is nothing to the claims. What follows looks like a highly defensive string of excuses on Rossi's behalf. Are you sure you are not Rossi? 8^) I wonder how many times I need to say this to you that Rossi invited independent and semi-independent scientist to the demonstrations to do all the measurements they thought to be relevant. He did not participate himself in anyway what all those university professors were doing when they measured the enthalpy with humidity sensor. Indeed DeltaOhm can measure the enthalpy from steam quality as is mentioned in manual, but problem is that steam quality is irrelevant concept, because DeltaOhm does not measure the liquid water content, but it only measures suspended water content of steam (i.e. steam quality that was 98.8%). Rossi only presented June demonstration himself, and he did it exactly as those professors such as Kullander told him to do enthalpy measurements. Indeed, Rossi does not like scientists, and this should be obvious to anyone that Rossi wanted to show with June E-Cat that this method cannot measure enthalpy at all, because it is outright silly to any steam engineer, although method was approved by many scientists and university professors. There were nothing wrong with the setup, but there was just incompetent scientist who were unable to do proper enthalpy measurements. Scientist such as Mats Lewan could have done 20 steam sparging and water trap test in September, but he chose to do only one water trap test. Only one! This tells lots about the level of Rossi's scientist, because Mats was the brightest and the most rigorous scientific star in Bologna. –Jouni Ps. Rossi had scheduled to publish his cold fusion work not before October. Therefore he has not done demonstrations that are not long enough to exclude chemical power sources. If Krivit writes 200 page report about Rossi's sense of humor, it is his problem if he is wasting his time! Same goes for you, Horace! Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
