Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
At 06:38 PM 10/25/2008 -0600, Edmund (Neutral potential) Stroms wrote: The infrequent success in CF can be explained if the required and rare catalyst is absent in most studies. This being the case, we need to search for this catalyst. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Arthur C. Clarke [The Jargon File, Version 2.9.10, 01 Jul 1992 ] Those who have used engineering have done quite well in lattice assisted nuclear reactions (LANR, ie. CF).
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Mike and all, Yes it is a really fascinating discussion for all the usual reasons, some of them science. We've got a future energy group at university which is damn rigorous, full of good people, attached to other great departments and universities YET amazingly open minded and tolerant if you obey the house rules: if you are junior you get everything checked over by your betters before using the name of the institution and listen to advice. As I've said on this list I saw a lecturer/research fellow stand up in a seminar in front of the head of ITER (hot fusion in Europe) and mention CF. I thought this would be career suicide. It's a rocky road to acceptance but the old conspiracy theories can wear thin, just like a person were always to say it 'cos I'm a member of this substitute minority they're got it in for me. It might work a few times then it will piss people off. That Mills Treatise/grand thesis, like a novel I'd expect to get hooked if it knew how to tease me from page to page: 1) The data: unequivocal data for excess heat production. The hard ball nuts and bolts engineering and design calculations that reliably makes your apparatus. GENERALLY ACCEPTED FACT. 2) HYDRINOS, we got some! Some *measured* properties of Hydrinos, an equation of state, density measurements, emission data, diffraction/crystallography data, reaction kinetics data, calorimetry, specs, mass measurement more more more WHAT CAN YOU DO WITH 60 MILLION DOLLARS! 3) Taking the stuff further: anomalous astronomical data NOBODY KNEW WHAT THAT EMISSION LINE WAS AT 54eV for years. 4) Then you start laying on the treatise and telling everyone they are wrong. However if it's like this: Chapter 1) You're all wrong. I ain't got much data yet but trust me. Unlearn everything (logic, simple arithmetic too). I've got nothing that's generally accepted but here's my GUT. Chapter 2) Here's more GUT. I guess that that smart productive band of people 20s to 50 who are good senior fellows, post docs, PhDs, MScs, final year students, won't even bother with it. Your jobbing research fellow going along to seminars will leave a seminar PDQ. There are similarities to getting research out and election hustings - there's a lot of emotion over reason. So what are left to think? Crank science, charismatic/loopy leader, flawed science, acolyte troops of hangers on to the funding money (hey, nice offices, nice logos) Or they had something but the leader got a bit cranky? Keep a distance. -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 October 2008 01:43 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Remi, Thanks for the calibration and apologies for any apparent condescension. I'm retired afer 38 years as a senior systems engineer for RCA, bridging between the research world and the production world. Regards, Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 6:30 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? It's alright Mike I am a seasoned researcher, engineer, been in industry, know the ropes, have some aptitude, done some work, know a few things, seen a few things. People are busy and they don't tend to want to re-learn stuff if it doesn't come to the point soon, claims too much, looks too slick (websites and overheads) and requires outlay to download papers. Remi, I've suggested some homework. When you look at the website, include the mamagement credentials and stay tuned. BLP's next step will require some very serious money and very serious people are interested, despite the turmoil in the financial world. BLP's posture is shifting fromn research to development. Mike Carrell I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated, peer reviewed? i.e. can you make the clever people at the Ivy League or Fortune500 labs want to spent their time on it? NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. And such stuff. Like anyone in Physics, Engineering or Chemistry in graduate school or postdoc level could just pick and say I know this to be a fact. I mean I will show you bogus as bogus gets: look up John Searl on Wiki or YouTube. It's done in the style of science to look scientific when it is science fiction and snake oil. I'm not saying Mills is but taking the stance of an impartial observer who knows how difficult it is passing muster with peers at top universities and how important it is to take people's advice over presentation matters. -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 18:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
You know organisations, big plans, fail when the leadership is weak. It's tragic when people get promoted beyond their ability or the ability of their ego to contain it all. Then the hangers on smell the carrion. I'd rather take a quiet role as advisor than the captain of the ship. Technical knowhow and business don't often mix. Yeah, the Ivy Leaguers don't know everything but I'd sooner have an Ivy Leaguer directing it all, peer reviewing, running the whole show, patrician and patronising as they may be, than submit to the Searls, Steorns, The Meyers, Mills(?), The Millers(he's a UK phenomenon nipped in the bud), Newmans, Enrons, Bear Sterns of this world than the totally-gone laissez-faire alternative. Jed gave this a few weeks ago. http://newdeal.feri.org/speeches/1932d.htm http://www.hpol.org/fdr/inaug/ We need that kind of vision and integrity at the top allied with the private sector for new energy. (Drop below the ground state, tsck! bollox! Tricks with wheels and magnets bollox! 'Tickling phase space', 'The Searl Effect', 'Collateralised debt', 'financial engineering' all bollox and scams! )
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Vortex, Not blowing my own trumpet (I don't need to I've got good support behind me) this is what an apprentice learns in graduate school: The subject frontiers The art of scientific writing How to do presentations How to lead Research Ethics Writing grant proposals How to manage time How to manage people Life in general There is more, much more. In fact there is a requirement to actually attend taught courses as such in UK universities in grad school. If you've done a lot outside it feels like you are having your style cramped being told how to write papers, for instance. We all hate these courses. I've done a bunk on some of them but I'll catch up when they are re-run half yearly. Now not blowing my own trumpet: http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/PartOutline.pdf. I've got a contentious idea, right? I learn to keep schtump until I begin (just beginning to) to pass master with people who are professionals in the field. Yes over the years I'll get shown the door, insulted, have to put up with fools in high positions I know I ring circles around (Polytechnic Professors). *The art of progress is dealing with people, keeping your cool, conceding when you are wrong, being gentle in victory and DOING THE GODDAM WORK!* Section by section I write that document in the link above. It will eventually be cut and pasted into a thesis which I will have to defend. Sometimes I get pissed off with the whole establishment, down tools for months, go and do something else. Sometimes I get depressed. Sometimes I avoid my supervisors. Then I pluck up the courage go and see them and they are happy to see me. Yes I was annoyed how slow things were going in their acceptance of my ideas BUT THE CHANGE COMES FROM ME TOO. I am chuffed that these guys are even bothering. I think for the fees to attend (I don't pay them now) I get a lot of their wisdom and facilities for buttons. Like a lawyer might represent you, these guys know how to present an argument in the court of expert opinion and if you don't take their advice, then the client is a fool. Bit by bit I hone the arguments, design experiments, get the grants in, get the data and do the seminars/write the papers. Leave the knock-out whammy far-out sh.t to the end. Who knows, ideas at the start may be very different when at the end: Plasticity in thought. I am prepared, though with much frustration, to accept the wisdom of others more experienced than me IF I KNOW THEIR INTENTIONS ARE GOOD. If I smell the rat of indifference and incompetence I leave the place (yeah Brighton). I like liberal patricians. I like the good 'ole Ivy league types when watching BBC4 in programmes like Alan Clarke's Civilisation or Simon Schama on the USA (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00f4zgd). I get to realise how little I know. I know my limitations. Then again I might think what Schama says about the US realising that the US dream is dead (war, environment, finance) is sh.t because he doesn't have the mind of someone who knows about technology or the sheer optimism and ignorance of someone not as smart as him to do something everyone thinks is wrong. I also like the world outside university and the ability it gives you to run off and get your own funding when no-one listens. Then again I see the waste and endless charismatic half-wits with silly permanent magnet motors. I hate the scam artists, the vain and incompetent. They ruin it for everyone.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. If we accept the excess power he claims, the process must be different from the one he proposes. This is important to me, because I'm trying to identify the Mills catalyst that is making hydrinos in the CF process, which has similar restrictions. An assumption on his part that is unrealistic and impossible does me no good in trying to use his method in this search. Therefore, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening in his cell because the hydrino process appears to be real under these conditions. Only his explanation makes no sense. Regards, Ed On Oct 24, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin. Simply decomposing NaH cannot result in hydrinos because the expected ion is not formed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless someone explicitly looked for it under the right conditions, and didn't find it. On the other hand, as you suggest, if the decomposition occurs on the Ni surface, the Na will have a complex ion state because it now is an absorbed atom, not a free, isolated atom. In addition, the electron that is promoted to a higher level has a place to go, i.e. into the conduction band of the Ni. The only problem is achieving a match between the energy change of the promoted electron and the energy shrinkage of the hydrino electron. I suspect you are needlessly multiplying entities. ;) IOW Mills provides a catalyst that has the necessary property, and gets the expected result. Why is it so hard to accept that he might be right? Granted spectroscopic results indicating presence of Na++ would go a long way to proving him right. Now for a question. Why must the electron that is promoted always come from a level that is observed to form an ion during normal ionization? Personally, I don't think it does, and have previously suggested that Li, which has an x-ray absorption energy of 54.75 eV, may be an example of this. However Na doesn't appear to fit the bill. For example, removal of a 2p electron from Na++ would occur during normal ionization, but is this happening here? No, but then Na++ is not the catalyst either. The whole molecule is the catalyst. BTW the third ionization energy of Na is 71.641 eV, and none of the immediate reactions have enough energy to do this. Only a further reaction of H[1/3] to a lower level would provide such energy. (3-4 yields 95 eV). In other words, why can't a 1s electron be removed from a neutral Na without the 2p electron being affected. After the 1s electron is removed, a 2p electron would take its place and release a small amount of energy as X-rays. This energy would be a byproduct of the process just like the hydrino energy. Do you know how much energy is required to remove a 1s electron from nearly neutral Na? 1073 eV. (K shell x-ray absorption energy). The process gets more unknown because the electron would be promoted into the conduction band, which has a lower energy than vacuum. In other words, perhaps Mills has the right process but is using the wrong electron promotion process to describe it simply because the wrong promotion gives the expected energy. If so, then I think you need to come up with an alternative (and the numbers to back it up). The work function of the metal might be a good place to start, however in this case we're looking at an alloy/compound, which complicates matters. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
OK, you caught me lurking. I am fascinated by this BLP stuff but haven't been following it in detail over the years. Ron Wormus gave this: http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_vid eo_v2.wmv These guys seem competent, respected and well kitted out in their lab. Where is a video or write up for the more technical crowd? 'Heat spike': relative magnitudes 'Small amount of hydrogen': How much? Nickel: How much? Electrical input: etc Temperature of reaction vessel? Did Ni undergo phase change? Big questions: 1) More power is generated than is needed to split water from hydrogen. What about that needed to regenerate the Ni or is it a consumable? 2) Is the Ni H complex somehow more inert at the end of the process? I can't vouch anything for Mills' GUTs because I haven't been exposed to them. It is understood that Chemistry is the physics of the outer electron shell. Processes are expected to be only a few eV. A Chemistry of inner electron shells would be radical and he would be a visionary in the league of a Linus Pauling when he used QM to describe the chemical bond. On this point would the activation energies of these reactions be prohibitively large or slow to start but then rapidly feeding back? Can they do chemical kinetic type experiments to postulate reaction intermediates, you know, what data? Mechanisms. On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. I can't imagine (yet) what the effect of a change in the effective mass would have in a lattice. I guess it wouldn't. I don't know how easy it is to transmute electrons into muons. Any suggestions and write ups? Remi.
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Rest mass muon 100Mev. So that answers a question about them being created. I guess not a possible mechanism. _ From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 16:14 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? OK, you caught me lurking. I am fascinated by this BLP stuff but haven't been following it in detail over the years. Ron Wormus gave this: http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_vid eo_v2.wmv These guys seem competent, respected and well kitted out in their lab. Where is a video or write up for the more technical crowd? 'Heat spike': relative magnitudes 'Small amount of hydrogen': How much? Nickel: How much? Electrical input: etc Temperature of reaction vessel? Did Ni undergo phase change? Big questions: 1) More power is generated than is needed to split water from hydrogen. What about that needed to regenerate the Ni or is it a consumable? 2) Is the Ni H complex somehow more inert at the end of the process? I can't vouch anything for Mills' GUTs because I haven't been exposed to them. It is understood that Chemistry is the physics of the outer electron shell. Processes are expected to be only a few eV. A Chemistry of inner electron shells would be radical and he would be a visionary in the league of a Linus Pauling when he used QM to describe the chemical bond. On this point would the activation energies of these reactions be prohibitively large or slow to start but then rapidly feeding back? Can they do chemical kinetic type experiments to postulate reaction intermediates, you know, what data? Mechanisms. On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. I can't imagine (yet) what the effect of a change in the effective mass would have in a lattice. I guess it wouldn't. I don't know how easy it is to transmute electrons into muons. Any suggestions and write ups? Remi.
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
All looks a bit bogus? 50M$ where's the peer review? I don't mean way-out theories posted to alternative physics type publications (see that's the start of it - conjecture, hypothesis, theory the scientific process) but hardball nuts and bolts applied physics/engineering theory or good chemistry lab procedure. I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated? I'd accept a new type of repeatable experiment, well above noise with or without understanding (theory) but with extensive good procedure in the lab. You know - excess heat, any neutrons or hydrinos (anyone isolated one?), mass specs, spectrographs, looking for reaction intermediates (NMR), electron micrographs ... the whole gamut. You know, what other good (unbiased) people (experimenters) would do in other good labs undertaking the same work. You know, pure natural science procedure, like botanists or rare stamp collectors: What is it? Where can I get more? If I do this, does it do this? Under what conditions? What isn't it - definitely? Can I write this up in such a way that it will pass muster with experts in the field? Can I break it to them gradually in small steps with well known or easily repeatable experiments? Have I got a misconception somewhere? Can I get a discussion with both True Believers and Pathological Sceptics? Is the argument moving anywhere, or does it just remain polarised camps for decades never hitting mainstream? Is it getting hyped for no real data or progress? Who's on board, are their intentions pure or is it a snake oil bubble? Did I create a monster with lots of hangers on and should I say as much to protect what little might have been good work initially? Do I distance myself from others in the field? Peer review and research ethics. _ From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 16:17 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Rest mass muon 100Mev. So that answers a question about them being created. I guess not a possible mechanism. _ From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 16:14 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? OK, you caught me lurking. I am fascinated by this BLP stuff but haven't been following it in detail over the years. Ron Wormus gave this: http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_vid eo_v2.wmv These guys seem competent, respected and well kitted out in their lab. Where is a video or write up for the more technical crowd? 'Heat spike': relative magnitudes 'Small amount of hydrogen': How much? Nickel: How much? Electrical input: etc Temperature of reaction vessel? Did Ni undergo phase change? Big questions: 1) More power is generated than is needed to split water from hydrogen. What about that needed to regenerate the Ni or is it a consumable? 2) Is the Ni H complex somehow more inert at the end of the process? I can't vouch anything for Mills' GUTs because I haven't been exposed to them. It is understood that Chemistry is the physics of the outer electron shell. Processes are expected to be only a few eV. A Chemistry of inner electron shells would be radical and he would be a visionary in the league of a Linus Pauling when he used QM to describe the chemical bond. On this point would the activation energies of these reactions be prohibitively large or slow to start but then rapidly feeding back? Can they do chemical kinetic type experiments to postulate reaction intermediates, you know, what data? Mechanisms. On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. I can't imagine (yet) what the effect of a change in the effective mass would have in a lattice. I guess it wouldn't. I don't know how easy it is to transmute electrons into muons. Any suggestions and write ups? Remi.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. MC: But He is not a catalyst, it used as a chemically inert heat transfer medium. When the reaction fires, undoubtedly some He will be ionized and the H atoms around, may contribute to the energy yield. That is not unfortunate, it is just a sideshow. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. Ah, but as a compound those electrons are in place. The riddle here is that Na in a compound does not appear to manifest the required energy hole. The molecule may thermally dissociate, with the H taking back it electron. Where is the energy to ionize the Na as it separates from the H? If Na can act as a catalyst during the separation with only thermal energy, then the resonant raansfer phenomenon as used/described by Mills apparently has new aspects. Ignoring this detail, and regarding the H[1/3] rpoduct of the reaction, then a 'conventional' hydrino catalyst has appeared and can act with any H around. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. MC: agreed, I have traouble understanding these chemical equations. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases, the first resonant energy dump into the hole (which in this case is 54.35 eV), and the second phase release, which is likely in the form of kinetic energy. However don't mistake the 54.35 eV on the left as external input to the reaction. It isn't. (it's just a quantity of -54.35 eV that Mills has transferred from the right hand side of the equation to the left hand side). What he should have done was: NaH - Na++ + 2 e- -54.35 eV + H[1/3] + 108.8 eV (note that the net on the right hand side is 54.45 eV) This makes it obvious that 54.35 eV is needed to break up the molecule, while the shrinkage yields a total of 108.8 eV. After the Hydrino forming reaction is complete, there is still free Na++ in the environment, and when this reacquires its missing electrons and recombines with a free H atom, to form a new molecule of NaH, a total of 54.35 eV is released. So in total for the two reactions (23 24) we get 54.45 (from 23) and 54.35 (from 24) = 108.8, which is precisely the total released during Hydrino formation. To make a long story short, when the Hydrino forms, part of the energy released is stored in chemical form (Na++ etc.) and part is released directly to the environment. The part stored in chemical form is then shortly (and separately) also released to the environment as per equ. 24. MC: That helps a bit, Robin, but where does the 54.45 eV come from? The thermal input from the heater does not seem enough, and there is no ionization field as in the microwave cell. Yet the DSC plot clearly shows something happening. Regards, Mike Carrell [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. Regards, Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin. Simply decomposing NaH cannot result in hydrinos because the expected ion is not formed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless someone explicitly looked for it under the right conditions, and didn't find it. On the other hand, as you suggest, if the decomposition occurs on the Ni surface, the Na will have a complex ion state because it now is an absorbed atom, not a free, isolated atom. In addition, the electron that is promoted to a higher level has a place to go, i.e. into the conduction band of the Ni. The only problem is achieving a match between the energy change of the promoted electron and the energy shrinkage of the hydrino electron. I suspect you are needlessly multiplying entities. ;) IOW Mills provides a catalyst that has the necessary property, and gets the expected result. Why is it so hard to accept that he might be right? Granted spectroscopic results indicating presence of Na++ would go a long way to proving him right. Now for a question. Why must the electron that is promoted always come from a level that is observed to form an ion during normal ionization? Personally, I don't think it does, and have previously suggested that Li, which has an x-ray absorption energy of 54.75 eV, may be an example of this. However Na doesn't appear to fit the bill. For example, removal of a 2p electron from Na++ would occur during normal ionization, but is this happening here? No, but then Na++ is not the catalyst either. The whole molecule is the catalyst. BTW the third ionization energy of Na is 71.641 eV, and none of the immediate reactions have enough energy to do this. Only a further reaction of H[1/3] to a lower level would provide such energy. (3-4 yields 95 eV). In other words, why can't a 1s electron be removed from a neutral Na without the 2p electron being affected. After the 1s electron is removed, a 2p electron would take its place and release a small amount of energy as X-rays. This energy would be a byproduct of the process just like the hydrino energy. Do you know how much energy is required to remove a 1s electron from nearly neutral Na? 1073 eV. (K shell x-ray absorption energy). The process gets more unknown because the electron would be promoted into the conduction band, which has a lower energy than vacuum. In other words, perhaps Mills has the right process but is using the wrong electron promotion process to describe it simply because the wrong promotion gives the expected energy. If so, then I think you need to come up with an alternative (and the numbers to back it up). The work function of the metal might be a good place to start, however in this case we're looking at an alloy/compound, which complicates matters. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message From: Mike Carrell MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. Why, instead of all by itself is this not evidence that Helium is a catalyst? Mills once consider it to be - has he changed that view?
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:06:07 -0600: Hi Ed, Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. [snip] When an atom/molecule is ionized, the electron *never* goes to infinity, so in that sense, *no* measured (by *anyone*) ionization energy is 100% accurate. However due to the inverse square drop in electric field, the electron doesn't have to be removed very far from an atom before the difference between that and infinity is so small as to be trivial (a few microns is enough). Such distances are easily attained in a plasma. What happens to the electron after that is irrelevant to the process from which the electron originated. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Ed wrote: Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. MC: Which values and which electrons, Ed? In eq. 23, two electrons a 'liberated' to facilitate catalyzing H[1/3]. The physical situation in the cell is NaH resident within the R-Ni mesh, which has an enormous surface area. On the scale of a molecule, why can't the electrons wander away? There are He atoms at 760 Torr hanging around too. The electron bound to the catalyzed H doesn't go anywhere, it just gets closer to its proton. Now I don't yet understand where the energy to ionize the Na comes from, but the DSC plot shows *something* happens. *That* requires eplanation. The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. MC: Are you also including the ionic catalysts in the gas phase cells? If we accept the excess power he claims, the process must be different from the one he proposes. MC: Why so? These solid fuel cells are a continuum with years of work in the electrolytic and gas phases. There are dozens of reports and papers supporting lthe reactions. Good calorimetry has been done iwth microwace excitation by Jonatan Phillips at the University of New Mexico. He was in town during ICCF-14 and slipped in to put up a poster on his calorimetric studies. In an early version of his reports there is a statement that the heat measured implied substantial conversion to H[1/4]. Philipps is currentlyas Distinguished Professor at the Farris center, supported by Los Alamos. He has a long association with Mills. I very strongly suggest that you contact him; he may be very helpful. This is important to me, because I'm trying to identify the Mills catalyst that is making hydrinos in the CF process, which has similar restrictions. MC: H and D atoms can autocatalyze in a three-body reaction because 2H+ provide the 27.2 energy for catalysis. Because it is a three-body reaction, the reaction density is low but favored by H and D rich environments such as the LENR environments. A reactions density too low for optical observation may yet be very intense on the particle-counting scene. An assumption on his part that is unrealistic and impossible does me no good in trying to use his method in this search. Therefore, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening in his cell because the hydrino process appears to be real under these conditions. Only his explanation makes no sense. MC: Granted, there are problems, as with LENR phenomena which don't make sense either. Nature is trying to tell us something. Mike Carrell Regards, Ed On Oct 24, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin. Simply decomposing NaH cannot result in hydrinos because the expected ion is not formed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless someone explicitly looked for it under the right conditions, and didn't find it. On the other hand, as you suggest, if the decomposition occurs on the Ni surface, the Na will have a complex ion state because it now is an absorbed atom, not a free, isolated atom. In addition, the electron that is promoted to a higher level has a place to go, i.e. into the conduction band of the Ni. The only problem is achieving a match between the energy change of the promoted electron and the energy shrinkage of the hydrino electron. I suspect you are needlessly multiplying entities. ;) IOW Mills provides a catalyst that has the necessary property, and gets the expected result. Why is it so hard to accept that he might be right? Granted spectroscopic results indicating presence of Na++ would go a long way to proving him right. Now for a question. Why must the electron that is promoted always come from a level that is observed to form an ion during normal ionization? Personally, I don't think it does, and have previously suggested that Li, which has an x-ray absorption energy of 54.75 eV, may be an example of this. However Na doesn't appear to fit the bill. For example, removal of a 2p electron from Na++ would occur during normal ionization, but is this happening here? No, but then Na++ is not the catalyst either. The whole molecule is the catalyst. BTW the third ionization energy of Na is 71.641 eV, and none of the immediate reactions have enough energy to do this. Only a further
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In a rarefied *ionised plasma gas* the spectrum is continuous. The mean free path is large, the electrons are 'at infinity'. In a free electron gas, in a metal say, there is a band structure. I don't know the context of this particular argument but that is fact. My 2 cents worth. -Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 21:48 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:06:07 -0600: Hi Ed, Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. [snip] When an atom/molecule is ionized, the electron *never* goes to infinity, so in that sense, *no* measured (by *anyone*) ionization energy is 100% accurate. However due to the inverse square drop in electric field, the electron doesn't have to be removed very far from an atom before the difference between that and infinity is so small as to be trivial (a few microns is enough). Such distances are easily attained in a plasma. What happens to the electron after that is irrelevant to the process from which the electron originated. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:36:16 -0400: Hi, [snip] MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. [snip] ..and what conclusion do you draw from this? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:57:47 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] - Original Message From: Mike Carrell MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. Why, instead of all by itself is this not evidence that Helium is a catalyst? Mills once consider it to be - has he changed that view? Not that I am aware of. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
On Oct 25, 2008, at 2:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:06:07 -0600: Hi Ed, Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. [snip] When an atom/molecule is ionized, the electron *never* goes to infinity, so in that sense, *no* measured (by *anyone*) ionization energy is 100% accurate. While that is true, the assumption is that the electron goes to infinity. However due to the inverse square drop in electric field, the electron doesn't have to be removed very far from an atom before the difference between that and infinity is so small as to be trivial (a few microns is enough). Such distances are easily attained in a plasma. What happens to the electron after that is irrelevant to the process from which the electron originated. Suppose an electron goes from a level that requires 20 eV if the electron goes to infinity. Now suppose the electron actually went to a conduction band at 3 eV relative to infinity. Would not 17 eV be required for the process? In contrast, you assume that the final energy of the electron does not matter provided it moves far enough from the original atom before finding another state. If the Mills energy is based on this assumption, then the environment in which the catalyst is located is important. I agree, very little ambiguity is created when the material is in a gas, as is most of the Mills work. However, we are now talking about a solid mixture. I suggest this situation creates great ambiguity and must be acknowledged. In addition, I can imagine a range of energy being available in such a transition if I can arbitrarily choose a distance the electron has to move from its stable state before the energy being used is identified. If this is the nature of the process, what is the point of choosing the ionization energy as a criteria for the hydrino process working? Regards. Ed Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you MC. RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Thank you MC -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 22:49 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? OK, you caught me lurking. I am fascinated by this BLP stuff but haven't been following it in detail over the years. MC: You have a lot of cathing up to do. Go to www.blacklghtopower.com and soak up the tutorial material available; it is quite condensed. The paper I cited will be rough going. Ron Wormus gave this: http://www.blacklightpower.com/Documentary%20Video/blacklight_experiment_vid eo_v2.wmv The videos are not very instructive. there are a lot of animations worthy of study. These guys seem competent, respected and well kitted out in their lab. Where is a video or write up for the more technical crowd? MC: Mills magnum opus, all 1000+ pages, can be downloaded from the website, along with selected papers. A list of over 70 journal papers is given, available for a fee from the respctive journals. There is an extensive Power Point briefing, but no narration. The best book I know of about Mills is America's Newton by Tom Stolper, available as a print-on-demand book from Amazon. 'Heat spike': relative magnitudes MC: 50 kW reported, megajoule total heat. 'Small amount of hydrogen': How much? MC: About 5 mg NaOH charge. Nickel: How much? about 1 kg Raynal-Ni, a commercial catalyst Electrical input: etc Energy input for heater1396 kJ, output 2194 kJ, excess 753 kJ [vaporize 8 oz water] Temperature of reaction vessel? Peaked at 600 C Did Ni undergo phase change? Not stated. All reactants resused except added H. Big questions: 1) More power is generated than is needed to split water from hydrogen. What about that needed to regenerate the Ni or is it a consumable? MC: Ni is not a comsumeable. Power needed to operate the recycling process not known, pending engineering studies. The final energy yield is so high that there is reasonable belief that a closed cycle system can be built. Doing such is BLP's current target. 2) Is the Ni H complex somehow more inert at the end of the process? MC: I don't know. Mills states that it is only necessary to add H in the regeneration steps, and that such has been deomostrated by bench chemistry. Whether this holds true in a large scale operating reaction remains to be seen. Surprises can be expected. I can't vouch anything for Mills' GUTs because I haven't been exposed to them. It is understood that Chemistry is the physics of the outer electron shell. Processes are expected to be only a few eV. MC: The shell shrinks during the catalysis process, releasing a large burst of energy. Multiple stages of shrinkage have been observed. A Chemistry of inner electron shells would be radical and he would be a visionary in the league of a Linus Pauling when he used QM to describe the chemical bond. MC: True, and Mills is only dealing with hydrogen [or deuterium]. Mills has developed software for molecular modeling by a subisidary Millsian, Inc. On this point would the activation energies of these reactions be prohibitively large or slow to start but then rapidly feeding back? Can they do chemical kinetic type experiments to postulate reaction intermediates, you know, what data? Mechanisms. MC: The activation enegies are a small fraction of the yield. Once hydrinos are created, they can interact in complex ways. On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. I can't imagine (yet) what the effect of a change in the effective mass would have in a lattice. I guess it wouldn't. I don't know how easy it is to transmute electrons into muons. MC: The mass of the electron does not change; its orbit is closer to the proton. Any suggestions and write ups? MC: See above. Good Hunting. Mike Carrell Remi. This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message From: Mike Carrell MC: remember to look at the DSC scan in Fig. 7. NaH goes strongly exothermic all by itself in an He atmosphere. Why, instead of all by itself is this not evidence that Helium is a catalyst? Helium is *not* a catalyst, it happens to be a chemically inactive good heat transfer medium. He+ is a catalyst, ionized by electric fields in some experiments. The DSC is a sophisticated Calvet calorimeter system which does not ionize He. Mike Carrell
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Remi, I've suggested some homework. When you look at the website, include the mamagement credentials and stay tuned. BLP's next step will require some very serious money and very serious people are interested, despite the turmoil in the financial world. BLP's posture is shifting fromn research to development. Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated, peer reviewed? i.e. can you make the clever people at the Ivy League or Fortune500 labs want to spent their time on it? NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. And such stuff. Like anyone in Physics, Engineering or Chemistry in graduate school or postdoc level could just pick and say I know this to be a fact. I mean I will show you bogus as bogus gets: look up John Searl on Wiki or YouTube. It's done in the style of science to look scientific when it is science fiction and snake oil. I'm not saying Mills is but taking the stance of an impartial observer who knows how difficult it is passing muster with peers at top universities and how important it is to take people's advice over presentation matters. -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 18:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. MC: But He is not a catalyst, it used as a chemically inert heat transfer medium. When the reaction fires, undoubtedly some He will be ionized and the H atoms around, may contribute to the energy yield. That is not unfortunate, it is just a sideshow. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. Ah, but as a compound those electrons are in place. The riddle here is that Na in a compound does not appear to manifest the required energy hole. The molecule may thermally dissociate, with the H taking back it electron. Where is the energy to ionize the Na as it separates from the H? If Na can act as a catalyst during the separation with only thermal energy, then the resonant raansfer phenomenon as used/described by Mills apparently has new aspects. Ignoring this detail, and regarding the H[1/3] rpoduct of the reaction, then a 'conventional' hydrino catalyst has appeared and can act with any H around. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. MC: agreed, I have traouble understanding these chemical equations. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases, the first resonant energy dump into the hole (which in this case is 54.35 eV), and the second phase release, which is likely in the form of kinetic energy. However don't mistake the 54.35 eV on the left as external input to the reaction. It isn't. (it's just a quantity of -54.35 eV that Mills has transferred from the right hand side of the equation to the left hand side). What he should have done was: NaH - Na++ + 2 e- -54.35 eV + H[1/3] + 108.8 eV (note that the net on the right hand side is 54.45 eV) This makes it obvious that 54.35 eV is needed to break up the molecule, while
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:13:44 +0100: Hi, [snip] On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. [snip] Changing the mass of the electron would be one way of achieving this, but it isn't the only way. Mills achieves it by proposing that trapped photons have the same effect as the creation of extra charge on the nucleus virtual charge if you will. I do it by assuming that the De Broglie wave of the electron can take on a more complex form than a simple circle (e.g. a Lissajous structure) - see my web page ( http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
It's alright Mike I am a seasoned researcher, engineer, been in industry, know the ropes, have some aptitude, done some work, know a few things, seen a few things. People are busy and they don't tend to want to re-learn stuff if it doesn't come to the point soon, claims too much, looks too slick (websites and overheads) and requires outlay to download papers. Remi, I've suggested some homework. When you look at the website, include the mamagement credentials and stay tuned. BLP's next step will require some very serious money and very serious people are interested, despite the turmoil in the financial world. BLP's posture is shifting fromn research to development. Mike Carrell I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated, peer reviewed? i.e. can you make the clever people at the Ivy League or Fortune500 labs want to spent their time on it? NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. And such stuff. Like anyone in Physics, Engineering or Chemistry in graduate school or postdoc level could just pick and say I know this to be a fact. I mean I will show you bogus as bogus gets: look up John Searl on Wiki or YouTube. It's done in the style of science to look scientific when it is science fiction and snake oil. I'm not saying Mills is but taking the stance of an impartial observer who knows how difficult it is passing muster with peers at top universities and how important it is to take people's advice over presentation matters. -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 18:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. MC: But He is not a catalyst, it used as a chemically inert heat transfer medium. When the reaction fires, undoubtedly some He will be ionized and the H atoms around, may contribute to the energy yield. That is not unfortunate, it is just a sideshow. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. Ah, but as a compound those electrons are in place. The riddle here is that Na in a compound does not appear to manifest the required energy hole. The molecule may thermally dissociate, with the H taking back it electron. Where is the energy to ionize the Na as it separates from the H? If Na can act as a catalyst during the separation with only thermal energy, then the resonant raansfer phenomenon as used/described by Mills apparently has new aspects. Ignoring this detail, and regarding the H[1/3] rpoduct of the reaction, then a 'conventional' hydrino catalyst has appeared and can act with any H around. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. MC: agreed, I have traouble understanding these chemical equations. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases, the first resonant energy dump into the hole (which in this case is 54.35 eV), and the second phase release, which is likely in the form of kinetic energy. However don't mistake the 54.35 eV on the left as external input to the reaction. It isn't. (it's just a quantity of -54.35 eV that Mills has transferred from the right hand side of the equation
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Yeah but without getting political (Christ knows, this is the season for it) where is a clear exposition of the experimental facts? Especially with regard to setup, calorimetry, reaction intermediates. Forget the theory, what have they measured and what is the set up? Keep pushing that in the minor mainstream journals - engineering etc. and eventually the mainstream physics department takes it up. Remi, it is all available in the papers, sulch as Commercializable.. It is dense and technical, and presumes the reader has been following BLP developments. Mills has published in the Journal of Applied Physics, but not Nature or Science. Mills' path is commercialization, and for that purpose he spends time with propspective partners and publishes papers and appears at technical conferences in part to bolster his patent position. If the present work goes to a commercial scale, Mills does not need the endorement of the scientific community. Mikie Carrell
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
I'm going to go to bed soon but photons are electrically neutral. Robin, virtual photons shield charge. QED is a *big* subject that's tackled in the graduate school and it's not easily mastered unless one's done the complete groundwork and then specialised. No when revolutions come they start off with simple premises, simple paradoxes and experiments that people can get their heads around. Then the best theoreticians move in once a consensus starts to emerge to make it all cogent. Look at the history of QM from the early experiments and paradoxes (1860-1905) to about 1970. The sheer economy that people like Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Jordan, Pauli, Dirac, Feynman brought to all the disparate phenomena and sheer zoo of stuff is one of the most intellectual Everests ever climbed. People don't throw out the whole lot without good reason. It's a bit like a catchy song that has a 'hook' to rise up above all the other stuff. In my situation a very prominent academic told me some time ago keep it simple. Everything gets scan read to pass muster initially unless one has an air to the good and great and they rate you highly initially. Cock up a few times and you get set back, it takes time to win the confidence back. Barring repeatable experiments and unequivocal data the good people are too busy and just can't be bothered. -Original Message- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 23:25 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:13:44 +0100: Hi, [snip] On a simple hydrogen model, the energy levels are proportional to the mass of the electron. To drop below would require the mass of the electron to change. [snip] Changing the mass of the electron would be one way of achieving this, but it isn't the only way. Mills achieves it by proposing that trapped photons have the same effect as the creation of extra charge on the nucleus virtual charge if you will. I do it by assuming that the De Broglie wave of the electron can take on a more complex form than a simple circle (e.g. a Lissajous structure) - see my web page ( http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Remi Cornwall's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:57:04 +0100: Hi, [snip] I'm going to go to bed soon but photons are electrically neutral. Robin, virtual photons shield charge. QED is a *big* subject that's tackled in the graduate school and it's not easily mastered unless one's done the complete groundwork and then specialised. That's Mills' hypothesis, not mine. No when revolutions come they start off with simple premises, simple paradoxes and experiments that people can get their heads around. Then the best theoreticians move in once a consensus starts to emerge to make it all cogent. Look at the history of QM from the early experiments and paradoxes (1860-1905) to about 1970. The sheer economy that people like Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Jordan, Pauli, Dirac, Feynman brought to all the disparate phenomena and sheer zoo of stuff is one of the most intellectual Everests ever climbed. People don't throw out the whole lot without good reason. It's a bit like a catchy song that has a 'hook' to rise up above all the other stuff. In my situation a very prominent academic told me some time ago keep it simple. Everything gets scan read to pass muster initially unless one has an air to the good and great and they rate you highly initially. Cock up a few times and you get set back, it takes time to win the confidence back. Barring repeatable experiments and unequivocal data the good people are too busy and just can't be bothered. :) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:32:51 -0400: Hi, [snip] All the energy comes from formation of the Hydrino (108.8 eV worth). MC: But you get that energy *after* the reaction, not *before*, no? Indeed. Why is this a problem? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Remi, Mills' Grand Unified Teory of Classical Physics runs over 1000 pages and is a free download from the website. The latest edition is written more in a textbook style that previous editions. Mills tackles the landmark phenomena of physics in an attempt to show how his orbisphere model works. Some vigorously disagree with this. What remains is the path of discovery and a body of experimetal evidence including the 'solid fuel'. Experiment trumps theory every time. Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? On Wikipedia: Atomic physics Mills says that the electron is an extended particle which in free space is a flat disk of spinning charge[citation needed]. His new model treats the electron, not as a point nor as a probability wave, but as a dynamic two-dimensional spherical shell surrounding the nucleus. The resulting model, called the orbitsphere, provides a fully classical physical explanation for phenomena such as quantization, angular momentum, Bohr magneton. Essentially, the electron orbitsphere is a dynamic spherical resonator cavity that traps photons of discrete frequencies. I remember reading in Feynman vol. 2 that when this kind of model was tried it lead to inconsistencies such as different parts of the electron having relative motions greater than c. Has he done any direct measurement of this? What is the cross-section of free electrons (not my area is PP)? What can he do with the simplest set up to prove this conjecture? I mean that's how research gets done in main universities. It's slow and frustrating but the good people pass through the system eventually. One dots the Is crosses the Ts. What if he has something producing excess heat and then clouds it all with stuff people can't begin to digest? -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 22:05 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Ed wrote: Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. MC: Which values and which electrons, Ed? In eq. 23, two electrons a 'liberated' to facilitate catalyzing H[1/3]. The physical situation in the cell is NaH resident within the R-Ni mesh, which has an enormous surface area. On the scale of a molecule, why can't the electrons wander away? There are He atoms at 760 Torr hanging around too. The electron bound to the catalyzed H doesn't go anywhere, it just gets closer to its proton. Now I don't yet understand where the energy to ionize the Na comes from, but the DSC plot shows *something* happens. *That* requires eplanation. The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. MC: Are you also including the ionic catalysts in the gas phase cells? If we accept the excess power he claims, the process must be different from the one he proposes. MC: Why so? These solid fuel cells are a continuum with years of work in the electrolytic and gas phases. There are dozens of reports and papers supporting lthe reactions. Good calorimetry has been done iwth microwace excitation by Jonatan Phillips at the University of New Mexico. He was in town during ICCF-14 and slipped in to put up a poster on his calorimetric studies. In an early version of his reports there is a statement that the heat measured implied substantial conversion to H[1/4]. Philipps is currentlyas Distinguished Professor at the Farris center, supported by Los Alamos. He has a long association with Mills. I very strongly suggest that you contact him; he may be very helpful. This is important to me, because I'm trying to identify the Mills catalyst that is making hydrinos in the CF process, which has similar restrictions. MC: H and D atoms can autocatalyze in a three-body reaction because 2H+ provide the 27.2 energy for catalysis. Because it is a three-body reaction, the reaction density is low but favored by H and D rich environments such as the LENR environments. A reactions density too low for optical observation may yet be very intense on the particle-counting scene. An assumption on his part that is unrealistic and impossible does me no good in trying to use his method in this search. Therefore, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening in his cell because the hydrino process appears to be real under these conditions. Only his
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:51:51 -0600: Hi, [snip] While that is true, the assumption is that the electron goes to infinity. [snip] Suppose an electron goes from a level that requires 20 eV if the electron goes to infinity. Now suppose the electron actually went to a conduction band at 3 eV relative to infinity. Would not 17 eV be required for the process? Of course, provided that source and destination are very close to one another. However if they are widely separated, then one first needs to invest 20 eV, then later one gets 3 eV back again (usually in photonic form). In contrast, you assume that the final energy of the electron does not matter provided it moves far enough from the original atom before finding another state. Precisely. The path is important to the mechanism. If the Mills energy is based on this assumption, then the environment in which the catalyst is located is important. Agreed. I agree, very little ambiguity is created when the material is in a gas, as is most of the Mills work. However, we are now talking about a solid mixture. But also about the space surrounding it, and even the space between solid particles. Note that the reaction takes place at high temperature, so the NaH once formed is likely to be gaseous. Even with a gaseous NaH however one can still have a surface phenomenon, when a gas molecule approaches the surface. Where I am heading with this is that an H atom formed on the surface may become momentarily freed from that surface, and could react with an NaH molecule floating nearby. I suggest this situation creates great ambiguity and must be acknowledged. I agree that there are still lots of unanswered questions. In addition, I can imagine a range of energy being available in such a transition if I can arbitrarily choose a distance the electron has to move from its stable state before the energy being used is identified. Perhaps because not all radii are equal? IOW the electron can only occupy stable orbitals (or be ionized). If this is the nature of the process, what is the point of choosing the ionization energy as a criteria for the hydrino process working? See above. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
On Oct 25, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Mike Carrell wrote: Ed wrote: Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Robin, my main point is that an electron leaving an atom cannot go to infinity under the conditions Mills has in his reactor. At most, it will go into some other energy level, such as the conduction band if one exists in the material. This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. MC: Which values and which electrons, Ed? In eq. 23, two electrons a 'liberated' to facilitate catalyzing H[1/3]. The physical situation in the cell is NaH resident within the R-Ni mesh, which has an enormous surface area. On the scale of a molecule, why can't the electrons wander away? There are He atoms at 760 Torr hanging around too. The electron bound to the catalyzed H doesn't go anywhere, it just gets closer to its proton. Now I don't yet understand where the energy to ionize the Na comes from, but the DSC plot shows *something* happens. *That* requires eplanation. The mechanism that Mills proposes requires the catalyst electrons to change their energy by a required and known amount. This being the case, a method is required to calculate how much energy a proposed reaction is able to absorb. The ability to match a calculated energy to a reaction or element is the unique strength of the Mills approach. When Mills bases this match on the ionization energy of an ion, his method breaks down in a solid. While an electron might wonder away, he must know exactly how much energy this wandering absorbs to apply his model. I suggest it is impossible to calculate how much energy is absorbed under the conditions involving NaH. Therefore, he cannot apply his model except by making some unlikely assumptions. This is not to say that nothing happens or that hydrinos are not involved. I'm only suggesting that the details of his mechanism in this case makes no sense. The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. MC: Are you also including the ionic catalysts in the gas phase cells? If we accept the excess power he claims, the process must be different from the one he proposes. MC: Why so? These solid fuel cells are a continuum with years of work in the electrolytic and gas phases. There are dozens of reports and papers supporting lthe reactions. Good calorimetry has been done iwth microwace excitation by Jonatan Phillips at the University of New Mexico. He was in town during ICCF-14 and slipped in to put up a poster on his calorimetric studies. In an early version of his reports there is a statement that the heat measured implied substantial conversion to H[1/4]. Philipps is currentlyas Distinguished Professor at the Farris center, supported by Los Alamos. He has a long association with Mills. I very strongly suggest that you contact him; he may be very helpful. The gas studies clearly support his ideas and are consistent with his calculations using the ionization energy. The problem comes when he tries to apply this idea to solids. While the mechanism may work in solids, his proposed path and the calculated values make no sense. This is important to me, because I'm trying to identify the Mills catalyst that is making hydrinos in the CF process, which has similar restrictions. MC: H and D atoms can autocatalyze in a three-body reaction because 2H+ provide the 27.2 energy for catalysis. Because it is a three- body reaction, the reaction density is low but favored by H and D rich environments such as the LENR environments. A reactions density too low for optical observation may yet be very intense on the particle-counting scene. The infrequent success in CF can be explained if the required and rare catalyst is absent in most studies. This being the case, we need to search for this catalyst. An autocatalyze three-body reaction can ot be the mechanism because H and D are always present, yet the required nuclear product is rare. An assumption on his part that is unrealistic and impossible does me no good in trying to use his method in this search. Therefore, I'm trying to understand what is actually happening in his cell because the hydrino process appears to be real under these conditions. Only his explanation makes no sense. MC: Granted, there are problems, as with LENR phenomena which don't make sense either. Nature is trying to tell us something. Yes, and I'm trying to listen. Ed Mike Carrell Regards, Ed On Oct 24, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Howdy Mike, A concise summary of a thread that has gone past it appointed importance. The bartender at the Dime Box Saloon keeps saying.. showing beats telling. Over in San Antonio where Jim Bowie made a name for himself selling genuine imitation artificial real goldmine maps there used to be a company named Guaranteed 90 day Battery Company. Their scientist claimed the had invented a battery that lasted exactly 91 days. Yes, I know we are not supposed to discourage innovative research... but.. does anyone know if Mills has any kinfolks in San Antonio? Richard Mike Carroll wrote, What remains is the path of discovery and a body of experimetal evidence including the 'solid fuel'. Experiment trumps theory every time.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Remi, Thanks for the calibration and apologies for any apparent condescension. I'm retired afer 38 years as a senior systems engineer for RCA, bridging between the research world and the production world. Regards, Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 6:30 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? It's alright Mike I am a seasoned researcher, engineer, been in industry, know the ropes, have some aptitude, done some work, know a few things, seen a few things. People are busy and they don't tend to want to re-learn stuff if it doesn't come to the point soon, claims too much, looks too slick (websites and overheads) and requires outlay to download papers. Remi, I've suggested some homework. When you look at the website, include the mamagement credentials and stay tuned. BLP's next step will require some very serious money and very serious people are interested, despite the turmoil in the financial world. BLP's posture is shifting fromn research to development. Mike Carrell I mean is anything generally accepted/corroborated, peer reviewed? i.e. can you make the clever people at the Ivy League or Fortune500 labs want to spent their time on it? NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. And such stuff. Like anyone in Physics, Engineering or Chemistry in graduate school or postdoc level could just pick and say I know this to be a fact. I mean I will show you bogus as bogus gets: look up John Searl on Wiki or YouTube. It's done in the style of science to look scientific when it is science fiction and snake oil. I'm not saying Mills is but taking the stance of an impartial observer who knows how difficult it is passing muster with peers at top universities and how important it is to take people's advice over presentation matters. -Original Message- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 October 2008 18:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. MC: But He is not a catalyst, it used as a chemically inert heat transfer medium. When the reaction fires, undoubtedly some He will be ionized and the H atoms around, may contribute to the energy yield. That is not unfortunate, it is just a sideshow. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. Ah, but as a compound those electrons are in place. The riddle here is that Na in a compound does not appear to manifest the required energy hole. The molecule may thermally dissociate, with the H taking back it electron. Where is the energy to ionize the Na as it separates from the H? If Na can act as a catalyst during the separation with only thermal energy, then the resonant raansfer phenomenon as used/described by Mills apparently has new aspects. Ignoring this detail, and regarding the H[1/3] rpoduct of the reaction, then a 'conventional' hydrino catalyst has appeared and can act with any H around. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. MC: agreed, I have traouble understanding these chemical equations. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Oct 25, 2008, at 2:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:06:07 snip. Would not 17 eV be required for the process? In contrast, you assume that the final energy of the electron does not matter provided it moves far enough from the original atom before finding another state. If the Mills energy is based on this assumption, then the environment in which the catalyst is located is important. I agree, very little ambiguity is created when the material is in a gas, as is most of the Mills work. However, we are now talking about a solid mixture. I suggest this situation creates great ambiguity and must be acknowledged. MC: We have be careful about *which* energy. The DSC plot shows that NaH goes strongly exothermic at a critical termperature. There is an endothermic phase change earlier. Is the NaH now a gas? If so, solid considerations no longer apply. Robin has pointed out that the whole molecule is a catalyst, and is listed as such by Mills. It is yet still a fuel, yielding Na++ and H[1/3] above a critical temperature. As Ed notes, there is seeming ambiguity and the exothermic behavior in the DSC plot is part of it. In addition, I can imagine a range of energy being available in such a transition if I can arbitrarily choose a distance the electron has to move from its stable state before the energy being used is identified. If this is the nature of the process, what is the point of choosing the ionization energy as a criteria for the hydrino process working? MC: Mills' language could be more cosistent. I believe he sees a relationship which is difficult to verbalize using the accustomed language of physics. Energy hole is a bit of jargon which representes a very complex situation. He has stated that the RT catalysis can be triggerd by any combination of ions and energies which create the resonant receptor. For example, the ionization of H is 13.6 eV, so a pair of H's can catalyse another H. Mills does not say the H's have to be ionized, as He+ or Ar+. His model has led to a very interesting place. Regards, Mike Carrell
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Mike MC: Helium is *not* a catalyst, it happens to be a chemically inactive good heat transfer medium. He+ is a catalyst, ionized by electric fields in some experiments. The DSC is a sophisticated Calvet calorimeter system which does not ionize He. 'Chemically inactive' is FAR from a resistance to ionization. It is naive to think that He can remain non-ionized in the presence of a strongly ionic solute like NaH. The NaH provides the electric field. For instance, water is not strongly ionic but becomes easily ionized in proximity any weak acid of base. There is no reason to suggest that Helium, while it would be more resistant to transient ionization than water - can remain locally non-ionized when NaH is in proximity, which would have near-fields in excess of the 54.4 eV on a transient timescale. There is no doubt in my mind that He is an active catalyst in the situation mentioned, and I am pretty sure that Mills would not object to that characterization. MC: Jones, you have a point. There are two contexts. The one I was referring to is the DSC scan of Fig 7, in which NaH is first solid and then undergoes an endothermic transition, possibly to a vapor phase. At a higher tempoerature it becomes strongy exothermic. He is present as a heat transfer medium. In the exothermic reaction, He may become ionized and catalyze some of the H in NaH, but if the NaH is itself reacting, the catalyst is more prbably the Na. MC: Much to puzzle over. Mike Carrell Jones This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Remi wrote: snip Barring repeatable experiments and unequivocal data the good people are too busy and just can't be bothered. MC: Yes, and therein lies much of the story of Mills and BLP. Mills is an MD and his approach to physics is audacious and would be forgettable were it not for its explantory power and the experimental trail. Mills has been very open about his work. He has attracted a substantial board of directors and over $60 million of private investment. He has stated that the theoretical work is now complete and the direction will now be to applications and power generation. Accomplishment of a utility scale reactor with a water-fuel input will be big news. Mills' physics, which is consistent over 85 orders of magnitude, will get serious attention. It will then be worthwhile for many people to study. Mike Carrell
RE: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
MC: Granted, there are problems, as with LENR phenomena which don't make sense either. Nature is trying to tell us something. Ed: Yes, and I'm trying to listen. In the same msg, Ed also writes: This fact is not based on speculation, assumptions, or theory. This is a simple fact of nature that is well understood. As Sherlock once said, you see Watson, but you do not observe. I have to wonder that if you came across something that contradicted a 'simple fact of nature', would you be able to observe it? It's just a 'gut feeling', but I sense that all of science has been developed with observations of particles and/or energy (what ever those things really are) in their incoherent, non-resonant interactions; the bulk properties and interactions. When you have a large number of oscillators, of differing non-resonant frequencies, in a somewhat confined area, you have the 'standard model'. When conditions are such that a small number of those oscillators, in a local area, somehow all come into resonance (sub/super harmonic relation), then throw the standard model out the freaking window -- shit hits the fan -- duck and cover -- can you say 'anomalous' -- oh dam, I must have done something wrong, those numbers just don't make sense! :-) It's so easy to dismiss it as 'error' when you've been conditioned to know what to expect... I remember reading somewhere, The properties of the ultra pure are, in many cases, quite different from those of just the pure. Nature does not reveal her innermost secrets easily... And I will add, and only when VERY specific conditions are met. -Mark No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release Date: 10/24/2008 6:08 PM
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Edmund Storms wrote: The values Mills uses to evaluate the process are all based on the electron going to infinity. Therefore, these values simply cannot apply to the real process. Instead, Mills assumes an unrealistic process to make his numbers fit his expectation. Brilliant observation, Ed. Perhaps what Randell is doing is substituting a hole for an electron. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Robin When Mills talks about an energy hole he is *not* talking about a missing electron as in a hole in a semi-conductor. He simply means an energy sink or sump (like a hole in the ground). What you are saying then is that he may be employing a fairly well-known term of physics in a non-scientific way to shoehorn a result into a theory. Problem is - physicists have spent a lot of time on the imaginary particle called the hole and the analysis all revolves around applied electric fields to positively charged holes which can be modeled using Coulomb's law etc. When you start adding or removing non-electron specific energy (heat), the result is a less effective electrical theory since heat can be removed in very small quanta independently of electrons. Essentially there is little predictive value which I can see to the 27.2 eV in the expanded instance where heat or other energy (acceleration) can added or subtracted in order to make a fit (deeper hole for instance) - and this is probably why Ed thinks it is basically a hit-or-miss situation. This is probably why Mills in the previous decade never seriously considered sodium, and it also could mean that if you find a metal that forms an electron hole at say 27.8 eV (copper++ ?) which is not close enough by itself, then you might be able to manufacture a better fit by cooling the experiment - or alternatively in other cases apply acceleration to increase the sink. Matter of fact - makes one wonder if a Farnswoth Fusor, made with a copper spherical electrode, would perfom better (produce more neutrons) if it were kept at cryogenic temps. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
The Mills interpretation does not make chemical sense. Normally, NaH decomposes into H2 and Na metal when this happens at high temperature. This is an ionic bonded compound, which means the bonding electron moves from an orbit main associated with H to an orbit mainly associated with Na. Decomposition causes a reverse of this situation. What extraordinary event or process would change this expected and observed process? It is not logical to assume an event just because it is required to fit your theory. Like the requirement in cold fusion, the process used to explain the process must also be observed and be consistent with events not associated with the phenomenon. Regards, Ed On Oct 23, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:48:33 -0400: Hi, [snip] There is something much simpler. NaH is formed by reactions given from NaOH coating of the R-Ni and heating. At some point the NaH decomposes, releasing Na and H atoms in close proximity, whereby Na++ then catalyses the H producing H[1/3]. There are aspects of this which puzzle me. [snip] According to Randy, the NaH decomposes directly in Na+++ + H[1/3] + 3e- . Na++ is not a catalyst. (The ionization energy is 71.641 eV). In going from H[1] to H[1/3] the H requires an energy hole of 54.4. eV. This is the sum of the first and second ionization energies of Na (5.1391 eV 47.286 eV resp.) and the energy required to break NaH into atoms (about 1.98 eV). IOW the molecule can decompose directly into the final products, and in so doing provides its own energy hole. This is probably why it is so effective (the coupling is all internal within the molecule). BTW the whole hydrino reaction actually produces 108.8 eV, so the difference between the total energy released and the energy hole (54.4 eV) will likely be released as additional kinetic energy IMO. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
One more 'flash from the past' on Robin's mention of an energy sink being like a hole in the ground. (how quickly we forget) This might also serve as some insight wrt Ed's comment. There is a geometric dimension to a 27.2 eV 'hole' if one wishes to consider the wavelength of UV photon radiation at this level. Methinks it is about 46 nm - which is well within the capability of micro-lithography at chip labs these days. Could it be that the Raney nickel being used was chosen, inadvertently or specifically - to have an average pore size near this dimension (46 nm) ? If so, then this makes a lot more sense as a package or as a system which can be scaled up - as this gives you the first level of 'shrinkage' very cheaply so to speak ... simply apply a positive charge to a geometric hole instead of 'manufacturing' one. And it could well be that after the first redundant level has been reached without recourse to adding massive amounts of energy, that everything works much smoother thereafter. The really interesting thing, from the perspective of LENR is that if it a geometric hole of this size (46 nm) works for protium, then it should also work for deuterium and could possibly increase the reaction rate when there is Pd in there instead of NaH. Why? Well for one thing - since the atomic volume of the deuteron is reduced by a factor of 8 (the cube of halving the diameter) then as much as 8 times more deuterium should fit into a Pd matrix (than normal) and there is evidence that higher loading is more active. This might also favor titanium instead of Pd as the active matrix - since its lower loading level would not be the limiting factor it is now, and since it is much cheaper. Plus - it is also possible that the Raney metal alone will be very active with deuterium. Mills may have opened a Pandora's box of LENR sectrets. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mills may have opened a Pandora's box of LENR sectrets. SECTrets? If this was unintentional, you might want to keep an eye on your subconscious. And why not? Your printer is watching you: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/10/23/howto-read-the-secre.html Terry
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Ha! Yes I saw with horror that my spell checker had failed me once again, but too late to change things g Not sure what exactly - the subconscious 'bleed' is related-to: sect sextet or even sex although I'm pretty sure which one uncle Siggy would choose... - Original Message From: Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mills may have opened a Pandora's box of LENR sectrets. SECTrets? If this was unintentional, you might want to keep an eye on your subconscious. And why not? Your printer is watching you: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/10/23/howto-read-the-secre.html Terry
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. However, the exothermic reaction of Fig 7 stands as an experimental fact which must be dealt with. There is a lot going on here, which is why I suggest study of this paper. The magnitude of the energy release and power exceeds all LENR experiments [except possibly accidents, which are not repeatable]. Mike Carrell
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:25:36 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Robin When Mills talks about an energy hole he is *not* talking about a missing electron as in a hole in a semi-conductor. He simply means an energy sink or sump (like a hole in the ground). What you are saying then is that he may be employing a fairly well-known term of physics in a non-scientific way to shoehorn a result into a theory. I agree that the choice of term was not particularly wise, however he has been using it since the beginning, so it isn't true that he is depending upon it to shoehorn a result into a theory. Problem is - physicists have spent a lot of time on the imaginary particle called the hole and the analysis all revolves around applied electric fields to positively charged holes which can be modeled using Coulomb's law etc. When you start adding or removing non-electron specific energy (heat), the result is a less effective electrical theory since heat can be removed in very small quanta independently of electrons. Essentially there is little predictive value which I can see to the 27.2 eV in the expanded instance where heat or other energy (acceleration) can added or subtracted in order to make a fit (deeper hole for instance) - and this is probably why Ed thinks it is basically a hit-or-miss situation. Mills has from the beginning said that kinetic energy of the particles can make slight adjustments to the specific energy of a given energy hole in order to ensure a perfect match. IOW the resonance condition is only satisfied when a perfect match occurs, but that is never the case for any of the Mills catalysts. That's why small kinetic energy adjustments make the reaction work anyway. The fact that there is a distribution of particle energies in any substance, means that there are always a few that have just the right energy to compensate for the slight mismatch between the required energy sink size, and the actual size provided by the catalyst. This is probably why Mills in the previous decade never seriously considered sodium, and it also could mean that if you find a metal that forms an electron hole at say 27.8 eV (copper++ ?) which is not close enough by itself, then you might be able to manufacture a better fit by cooling the experiment - or alternatively in other cases apply acceleration to increase the sink. See above. Matter of fact - makes one wonder if a Farnswoth Fusor, made with a copper spherical electrode, would perfom better (produce more neutrons) if it were kept at cryogenic temps. I have 20.292 eV for the second ionization energy of Cu, and 36.83 eV for the third. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:54:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] To: Robin van Spaandonk Jones Beene Ed Storms Scott Little [and lurkers] This has been a very useful discussion. If you have not done so, I recommend downloading http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC102308WebS.pdf and printing pages 10-14 and 48. Figure 7 on p48 is a scan of NaH using Differential Scanning Clorimetry. It is most instructive. At 350 C there is endothermic decompoisition of NaH. Beginning at 640 C is a very strong exothermic reaction, which I think is conventionally unexpected. The NaH was in 760 Torr He. This is unfortunate given that He+ is also a catalyst. The reactions involved in the test cell are complex, and discussed on pp 10-12, equations 23-35. The next-to-bottom paragraph of p11 is specially interesting. NaH apparently qulaifies as a catalyst because heating can intiate a reaction resulting in H[1/3] which is a hydrino catalyst. That is secondary. The primary reason it qualifies as a catalyst is that the sum of the three components of the dissociation energy into the specified components adds to 54.35 eV, which is a close match for 54.4 eV. It still is not clear to me where the 54.35 eV for ionizing Na to catalyze H comes from. Mills has this weird way of writing his equations. Note that the Hydrino reaction itself on the right hand side of equation 23 actually produces 108.8 eV, half of which goes into the electron hole, and the other half of which is just direct free energy. Any one else would just have written eq. 23 with an excess of 54.45 eV on the right hand side, and nothing on the left. He writes it the way he does, in order to indicate that the energy release occurs in 2 phases, the first resonant energy dump into the hole (which in this case is 54.35 eV), and the second phase release, which is likely in the form of kinetic energy. However don't mistake the 54.35 eV on the left as external input to the reaction. It isn't. (it's just a quantity of -54.35 eV that Mills has transferred from the right hand side of the equation to the left hand side). What he should have done was: NaH - Na++ + 2 e- -54.35 eV + H[1/3] + 108.8 eV (note that the net on the right hand side is 54.45 eV) This makes it obvious that 54.35 eV is needed to break up the molecule, while the shrinkage yields a total of 108.8 eV. After the Hydrino forming reaction is complete, there is still free Na++ in the environment, and when this reacquires its missing electrons and recombines with a free H atom, to form a new molecule of NaH, a total of 54.35 eV is released. So in total for the two reactions (23 24) we get 54.45 (from 23) and 54.35 (from 24) = 108.8, which is precisely the total released during Hydrino formation. To make a long story short, when the Hydrino forms, part of the energy released is stored in chemical form (Na++ etc.) and part is released directly to the environment. The part stored in chemical form is then shortly (and separately) also released to the environment as per equ. 24. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:05:50 -0600: Hi, [snip] I think you are close to describing the process, Robin. Simply decomposing NaH cannot result in hydrinos because the expected ion is not formed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, unless someone explicitly looked for it under the right conditions, and didn't find it. On the other hand, as you suggest, if the decomposition occurs on the Ni surface, the Na will have a complex ion state because it now is an absorbed atom, not a free, isolated atom. In addition, the electron that is promoted to a higher level has a place to go, i.e. into the conduction band of the Ni. The only problem is achieving a match between the energy change of the promoted electron and the energy shrinkage of the hydrino electron. I suspect you are needlessly multiplying entities. ;) IOW Mills provides a catalyst that has the necessary property, and gets the expected result. Why is it so hard to accept that he might be right? Granted spectroscopic results indicating presence of Na++ would go a long way to proving him right. Now for a question. Why must the electron that is promoted always come from a level that is observed to form an ion during normal ionization? Personally, I don't think it does, and have previously suggested that Li, which has an x-ray absorption energy of 54.75 eV, may be an example of this. However Na doesn't appear to fit the bill. For example, removal of a 2p electron from Na++ would occur during normal ionization, but is this happening here? No, but then Na++ is not the catalyst either. The whole molecule is the catalyst. BTW the third ionization energy of Na is 71.641 eV, and none of the immediate reactions have enough energy to do this. Only a further reaction of H[1/3] to a lower level would provide such energy. (3-4 yields 95 eV). In other words, why can't a 1s electron be removed from a neutral Na without the 2p electron being affected. After the 1s electron is removed, a 2p electron would take its place and release a small amount of energy as X-rays. This energy would be a byproduct of the process just like the hydrino energy. Do you know how much energy is required to remove a 1s electron from nearly neutral Na? 1073 eV. (K shell x-ray absorption energy). The process gets more unknown because the electron would be promoted into the conduction band, which has a lower energy than vacuum. In other words, perhaps Mills has the right process but is using the wrong electron promotion process to describe it simply because the wrong promotion gives the expected energy. If so, then I think you need to come up with an alternative (and the numbers to back it up). The work function of the metal might be a good place to start, however in this case we're looking at an alloy/compound, which complicates matters. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Assuming that the recent BLP-Rowan report is fairly accurate, and assuming that it does represent a marketable breakthrough in alternative energy - then among the many implications for vorticians are: is there a way to 'play' this by investing on the stock market (assuming you were not wiped out by recent circumstances) ? BLP itself is private, but is that the end of story? No, in fact the best play of all may be WR Grace. That is for several reasons; and one of them is that there could be a LENR application for a competing system which also depends on Raney Nickel. After operating for more than seven years in Chapter 11 (due to asbestos lawsuits, I believe), chemical giant W.R. Grace Co. is getting close to emerging from bankruptcy -- and the stock could be interesting on its own - even if the company did not make Raney nickel and own the trademark. Although the catalyst has been around for over 80 years, Raney is a registered trademark of Grace and there are trade secrets involved. The more generic product which can be called sponge-metal nickel catalyst may be used as a substitute which may have physical and chemical properties similar to those of Raney nickel; and will possibly work as well, but it could take other producers years to get into the market. Usually the first on the scene is the wisest choice, especially if there are trade secrets. CAVEAT: I am perhaps the worst stock picker of all time; and you would probably do better throwing darts at a copy of an old issue of WSJ. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CAVEAT: I am perhaps the worst stock picker of all time; and you would probably do better throwing darts at a copy of an old issue of WSJ. Not as bad as me. My advice: short anything I buy. :-) Terry
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 9:57 AM Subject: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Assuming that the recent BLP-Rowan report is fairly accurate, and assuming that it does represent a marketable breakthrough in alternative energy - then among the many implications for vorticians are: is there a way to 'play' this by investing on the stock market (assuming you were not wiped out by recent circumstances) ? BLP itself is private, but is that the end of story? Remember this: Raynal-Ni is a trade name of Grace. In the BLP reactor, it is a catalyst in a chemical system producing NaH, which is the catalyst in the energy reaction. Mills is very explicit in stating that only hydrogen is a consumeable in the reaction, producing hydrinos. All else is recoverable in a regeneration step. The material supplied to Rowan by BLP for their test was from another source, not Grace. Why so much is needed is not clear to me at all. BLP is only at the beginning of the design of a production version of the process. Mike Carrell
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
From Mike Carrell: Remember this: Raynal-Ni is a trade name of Grace. In the BLP reactor, it is a catalyst in a chemical system producing NaH, which is the catalyst in the energy reaction. Mills is very explicit in stating that only hydrogen is a consumeable in the reaction, producing hydrinos. All else is recoverable in a regeneration step. The material supplied to Rowan by BLP for their test was from another source, not Grace. Why so much is needed is not clear to me at all. BLP is only at the beginning of the design of a production version of the process. Mike Carrell This from Wiki on the properties of Raney Nickel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel Of particular interest to me was what's stated in the last (forth paragraph) in regards to how Raney Nickel reacts to the introduction of Hydrogen. ... Properties Macroscopically Raney nickel looks like a finely divided gray powder. Microscopically, each particle of this powder looks like a three-dimensional mesh, with pores of irregular size and shape of which the vast majority are created during the leaching process. Raney nickel is notable for being thermally and structurally stable as well has having a large BET surface area. These properties are a direct result of the activation process and contribute to a relatively high catalytic activity. During the activation process, aluminium is leached out the NiAl3 and Ni2Al3 phases that are present in the alloy, while most of the aluminium that remains does so in the form of NiAl. The removal of aluminium from some phases but not others is known as selective leaching. It has been shown that the NiAl phase provides the structural and thermal stability to the catalyst. As a result the catalyst is quite resistant to decomposition (breaking down, commonly known as aging).[3] This resistance allows Raney nickel to be stored and reused for an extended period; however, fresh preparations are usually preferred for laboratory use. For this reason commercial Raney nickel is available in both active and inactive forms. The surface area is typically determined via a BET measurement using a gas that will be preferentially adsorbed on metallic surfaces, such as hydrogen. Using this type of measurement, it has been shown that almost all the exposed area in a particle of the catalyst has nickel on its surface.[2] Since nickel is the active metal of the catalyst, a large nickel surface area implies that there is a large surface available for reactions to occur simultaneously, which is reflected in an increased catalyst activity. Commercially available Raney nickel has an average nickel surface area of 100 m² per gram of catalyst.[2] A high catalytic activity, coupled with the fact that hydrogen is absorbed within the pores of the catalyst during activation, makes Raney nickel a useful catalyst for many hydrogenation reactions. Its structural and thermal stability (i.e., the fact that it does not decompose at high temperatures) allows its use under a wide range of reaction conditions. Additionally, the solubility of Raney nickel is negligible in most common laboratory solvents, with the exception of mineral acids such as hydrochloric acid, and its relatively high density (between 6 and 7 g/cm³) also facilitates its separation off a liquid phase after a reaction is completed. ** Of course, theWiki description reveals no useful clues as to how hydrogen, when introduced and subsequently absorbed, is presumed to transform into hydrinos. At present I keep speculating that key components to the design of a BLP reactor chamber might consist of a cylinder containing a series of internal turbine blades, (possibly spinning in opposite directions) at high RPM speeds in order to keep the RN power in a constant agitated state. I wonder if such a configuration would help prevent the powder from clumping together as well as to the sides of the chamber. Of course, such a design consumes valuable energy in order to keep the turbine blades spinning. The $64 question: Would such a configuration consume all or more of the excess energy generated from the formation of hydrinos? It would not surprise me if some of BLP's RD engineers are looking very closely at various turbine designs for useful clues in turbulence characteristics and gas flow dynamics. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
I'm confused. I was under the impression that the NaH was the catalyst required to form the hydrino. If this is true, what is the role of the Reney nickel? Ed On Oct 23, 2008, at 11:00 AM, OrionWorks wrote: From Mike Carrell: Remember this: Raynal-Ni is a trade name of Grace. In the BLP reactor, it is a catalyst in a chemical system producing NaH, which is the catalyst in the energy reaction. Mills is very explicit in stating that only hydrogen is a consumeable in the reaction, producing hydrinos. All else is recoverable in a regeneration step. The material supplied to Rowan by BLP for their test was from another source, not Grace. Why so much is needed is not clear to me at all. BLP is only at the beginning of the design of a production version of the process. Mike Carrell This from Wiki on the properties of Raney Nickel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel Of particular interest to me was what's stated in the last (forth paragraph) in regards to how Raney Nickel reacts to the introduction of Hydrogen. ... Properties Macroscopically Raney nickel looks like a finely divided gray powder. Microscopically, each particle of this powder looks like a three-dimensional mesh, with pores of irregular size and shape of which the vast majority are created during the leaching process. Raney nickel is notable for being thermally and structurally stable as well has having a large BET surface area. These properties are a direct result of the activation process and contribute to a relatively high catalytic activity. During the activation process, aluminium is leached out the NiAl3 and Ni2Al3 phases that are present in the alloy, while most of the aluminium that remains does so in the form of NiAl. The removal of aluminium from some phases but not others is known as selective leaching. It has been shown that the NiAl phase provides the structural and thermal stability to the catalyst. As a result the catalyst is quite resistant to decomposition (breaking down, commonly known as aging).[3] This resistance allows Raney nickel to be stored and reused for an extended period; however, fresh preparations are usually preferred for laboratory use. For this reason commercial Raney nickel is available in both active and inactive forms. The surface area is typically determined via a BET measurement using a gas that will be preferentially adsorbed on metallic surfaces, such as hydrogen. Using this type of measurement, it has been shown that almost all the exposed area in a particle of the catalyst has nickel on its surface.[2] Since nickel is the active metal of the catalyst, a large nickel surface area implies that there is a large surface available for reactions to occur simultaneously, which is reflected in an increased catalyst activity. Commercially available Raney nickel has an average nickel surface area of 100 m² per gram of catalyst.[2] A high catalytic activity, coupled with the fact that hydrogen is absorbed within the pores of the catalyst during activation, makes Raney nickel a useful catalyst for many hydrogenation reactions. Its structural and thermal stability (i.e., the fact that it does not decompose at high temperatures) allows its use under a wide range of reaction conditions. Additionally, the solubility of Raney nickel is negligible in most common laboratory solvents, with the exception of mineral acids such as hydrochloric acid, and its relatively high density (between 6 and 7 g/cm³) also facilitates its separation off a liquid phase after a reaction is completed. ** Of course, theWiki description reveals no useful clues as to how hydrogen, when introduced and subsequently absorbed, is presumed to transform into hydrinos. At present I keep speculating that key components to the design of a BLP reactor chamber might consist of a cylinder containing a series of internal turbine blades, (possibly spinning in opposite directions) at high RPM speeds in order to keep the RN power in a constant agitated state. I wonder if such a configuration would help prevent the powder from clumping together as well as to the sides of the chamber. Of course, such a design consumes valuable energy in order to keep the turbine blades spinning. The $64 question: Would such a configuration consume all or more of the excess energy generated from the formation of hydrinos? It would not surprise me if some of BLP's RD engineers are looking very closely at various turbine designs for useful clues in turbulence characteristics and gas flow dynamics. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
From Edmund Storms: I'm confused. I was under the impression that the NaH was the catalyst required to form the hydrino. If this is true, what is the role of the Reney nickel? Ed Good point. Out at the BLP web site a graphic revealing the BLP process states: Specifically, molecular sodium hydride, NaH, serves as a catalyst and a source of the atomic hydrogen fuel in the heat releasing reaction to form hydrinos and then molecular hydrinos. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Ed I'm confused. I was under the impression that the NaH was the catalyst required to form the hydrino. If this is true, what is the role of the Raney nickel? First - there are two very distinct ways to look at this situation. It is somewhat logical to believe, as does Mike Carrell, that Mills got everything right -- and that the energy anomaly he discovered is explainable based precisely on application his CQM theory, and that the theory rules, and that no amount of good fortune is present. This is why Mike constatnly wants people to study Mills theory as if it were gospel. If that is true, then the nickel probably serves only as a proton conductor and catalyst to remove the proton from the sodium. IOW - those who are strict BLP advocates cannot imagine the situation where Mills could have succeeded, though good fortune alone - and found an experimental anomaly but that it is one that his theory does not explain. However, that is merely their interpretation, logical as that may seem, and until more is known - most of us would agree that Mills should be given the benefit of the doubt. Which is not to say that other avenues should not be investigated at the same time. An alternate interpretation is that Mills found a robust energy anomaly and is trying to shoehorn it into a theory which itself is suspect; but which theory is partially correct, and close enough to make it seem like it works to explain the anomaly when it really only goes part of the way. If this alternative interpretation is eventually found to be valid, and it is a long-shot - then the nickel may serve a similar purpose and role as does palladium in LENR, and in fact the excess heat may be nuclear and not the result of redundant ground states. After all, as far back as 1990-1991 others besides Mills were finding excess energy in nickel light water LENR. Personally - I think the truth may be somewhere in between and that redundant ground states are necessary precursor states to low energy nuclear reactions - yet the hydrino states alone are neither endothermic or nor very energetic by themself -- which is why Mills could never get it right with his initial choice of catalysts (sodium was not favored till recently) and that most of the excess heat is coming from LENR. Since this interpretation pleases almost no one but moi, it will probably not be tested for some time. OTOH it would be very easy to falsify by looking for the smoking gun. Therefore - I will name the exact 'make and model' of that smoking gun. There are two excellent candidate low energy reactions where redundant ground states mimic a neutron partially - and end up adding a proton to another nucleus without the expected radioactivity. The evidence shoud be there if they look for these changes and these transmutation elements. One reaction would be 23Na + (hy) -- 24Mg. Where the pseudo-neutron adds a proton and transmutes sodium into magnesium with very little radioactivity - but there could be energetic betas and soft x-rays. One big difference over a neutron reaction is that the beta-electron is not a decay product - since- it never participates at all, except to serve the purpose of allowing the proton to get into the range of the nuclear strong force and perhaps another QM 'trick' or two. The other would be 62Ni + (hy) -- 63Cu. These reactions could easily be hidden since neither transmuted nucleus is radioactive. Are there QM problems with coupling and conservation of spin, you ask? ... more on that later. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Jones, While speculation is underway, I would like to add my own. The Mills criteria for a catalyst is the energy that is required to remove an electron from a level to infinity, i.e. the ionization potential. However, this can only occur in a gas. In a solid, the electron never goes to infinity. Consequently, the Mills criteria does not apply. Instead, Mills has to find a catalyst in which a transition between a stable level and an energy near the conduction band is equal to the required energy. The energy used to make this kind of transition is impossible to predict. As a result, success is based on trial and error, much like cold fusion. Suppose the Ni in contact with NaH provides a place for the electron released from NaH to go that then gives the energy change the right value. After all, NaH does not have a conduction band and the electron could not find a way out of the local system without a conductor with a conduction band being present. If this is the explanation, any finely divided conductor would work, for example finely divided Pd. This idea would suggest that nanosized Pd in a cold fusion environment is only required to take the released electron away from the actual catalyst, which has not been identified in this case. What do you think about this idea? Ed On Oct 23, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Jones Beene wrote: Ed I'm confused. I was under the impression that the NaH was the catalyst required to form the hydrino. If this is true, what is the role of the Raney nickel? First - there are two very distinct ways to look at this situation. It is somewhat logical to believe, as does Mike Carrell, that Mills got everything right -- and that the energy anomaly he discovered is explainable based precisely on application his CQM theory, and that the theory rules, and that no amount of good fortune is present. This is why Mike constatnly wants people to study Mills theory as if it were gospel. If that is true, then the nickel probably serves only as a proton conductor and catalyst to remove the proton from the sodium. IOW - those who are strict BLP advocates cannot imagine the situation where Mills could have succeeded, though good fortune alone - and found an experimental anomaly but that it is one that his theory does not explain. However, that is merely their interpretation, logical as that may seem, and until more is known - most of us would agree that Mills should be given the benefit of the doubt. Which is not to say that other avenues should not be investigated at the same time. An alternate interpretation is that Mills found a robust energy anomaly and is trying to shoehorn it into a theory which itself is suspect; but which theory is partially correct, and close enough to make it seem like it works to explain the anomaly when it really only goes part of the way. If this alternative interpretation is eventually found to be valid, and it is a long-shot - then the nickel may serve a similar purpose and role as does palladium in LENR, and in fact the excess heat may be nuclear and not the result of redundant ground states. After all, as far back as 1990-1991 others besides Mills were finding excess energy in nickel light water LENR. Personally - I think the truth may be somewhere in between and that redundant ground states are necessary precursor states to low energy nuclear reactions - yet the hydrino states alone are neither endothermic or nor very energetic by themself -- which is why Mills could never get it right with his initial choice of catalysts (sodium was not favored till recently) and that most of the excess heat is coming from LENR. Since this interpretation pleases almost no one but moi, it will probably not be tested for some time. OTOH it would be very easy to falsify by looking for the smoking gun. Therefore - I will name the exact 'make and model' of that smoking gun. There are two excellent candidate low energy reactions where redundant ground states mimic a neutron partially - and end up adding a proton to another nucleus without the expected radioactivity. The evidence shoud be there if they look for these changes and these transmutation elements. One reaction would be 23Na + (hy) -- 24Mg. Where the pseudo-neutron adds a proton and transmutes sodium into magnesium with very little radioactivity - but there could be energetic betas and soft x-rays. One big difference over a neutron reaction is that the beta-electron is not a decay product - since- it never participates at all, except to serve the purpose of allowing the proton to get into the range of the nuclear strong force and perhaps another QM 'trick' or two. The other would be 62Ni + (hy) -- 63Cu. These reactions could easily be hidden since neither transmuted nucleus is radioactive. Are there QM problems with coupling and conservation of spin, you ask? ... more
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Howdy Jones, I place little faith in the Grace people. The leadership at Grace have demonstrated they cannot win. There was an outfit in Louisana we purchased some sponze aluminum from back when that was working on nickel also. I am trying to dig up their name. Guys acted like they had their act together. Richard Assuming that the recent BLP-Rowan report is fairly accurate, and assuming that it does represent a marketable breakthrough in alternative energy - then among the many implications for vorticians are: is there a way to 'play' this by investing on the stock market (assuming you were not wiped out by recent circumstances) ? BLP itself is private, but is that the end of story? No, in fact the best play of all may be WR Grace. That is for several reasons; and one of them is that there could be a LENR application for a competing system which also depends on Raney Nickel. After operating for more than seven years in Chapter 11 (due to asbestos lawsuits, I believe), chemical giant W.R. Grace Co. is getting close to emerging from bankruptcy -- and the stock could be interesting on its own - even if the company did not make Raney nickel and own the trademark. Although the catalyst has been around for over 80 years, Raney is a registered trademark of Grace and there are trade secrets involved. The more generic product which can be called sponge-metal nickel catalyst may be used as a substitute which may have physical and chemical properties similar to those of Raney nickel; and will possibly work as well, but it could take other producers years to get into the market. Usually the first on the scene is the wisest choice, especially if there are trade secrets. CAVEAT: I am perhaps the worst stock picker of all time; and you would probably do better throwing darts at a copy of an old issue of WSJ. Jones No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release Date: 10/23/2008 7:54 AM
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? I'm confused. I was under the impression that the NaH was the catalyst required to form the hydrino. If this is true, what is the role of the Reney nickel? Ed = Ed, I share your confusion. The paper Commercializable has lots of details but doesn't look well organized. As far as I can tell: 1) The R-Ni acts as a catalyst to dissociate H2 input to 2H. It also absorbs H2, servig as a resivoir. 2) In the BLP paper 0.5% [5 mg] of NaOH is coated on the R-Ni. They only way I know to do this is in solution. 3) Having coated the R-Ni, the cell is evacuated. This will remove the water, leaving crystalline NaOH dispersed through the R-Ni 4) The evacuated cell is heated. Reactions with the residual Al, the H , the Na, and the O yield NaH. 5) NaH begins to decompose, with Na now becoming a BLP catalsy for the proximate H atom. Boom. 6) However, NaH is listed as a catalyst itself, as if it can react with acailable H atoms captured in the R-Ni. Mills is quite specific that the only consumable in the cycle is H2, converted to H[1/4]. All else is regenerated - somehow - in what is called 'bench chemistry'. I can imagine the Na getting spead all over the cell during the reaction. I don't know if just opening the cell and adding water will cause the Na to reaact to produce NaOH again, or just what. No clues given. [An exercise to left for the chemist]. Mike Carrell.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
OK Mike, let's say your description is correct. This means that many chemical combinations are available in the system on a nanoscale. Why does Mills focus on NaH? In fact, we have no idea what material or chemical combination of elements is acting as the catalyst. Also, we have no reason to believe the H goes to H[1/4] even if we accept that some level of hydrino forms. So, us skeptics can only marvel at Mills actually creating an energy source even though he can have no understanding of what is actually happening in the system. His description is based completely on what he EXPECTS to happen. Ed On Oct 23, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Mike Carrell wrote: - Original Message - From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? I'm confused. I was under the impression that the NaH was the catalyst required to form the hydrino. If this is true, what is the role of the Reney nickel? Ed = Ed, I share your confusion. The paper Commercializable has lots of details but doesn't look well organized. As far as I can tell: 1) The R-Ni acts as a catalyst to dissociate H2 input to 2H. It also absorbs H2, servig as a resivoir. 2) In the BLP paper 0.5% [5 mg] of NaOH is coated on the R-Ni. They only way I know to do this is in solution. 3) Having coated the R-Ni, the cell is evacuated. This will remove the water, leaving crystalline NaOH dispersed through the R-Ni 4) The evacuated cell is heated. Reactions with the residual Al, the H , the Na, and the O yield NaH. 5) NaH begins to decompose, with Na now becoming a BLP catalsy for the proximate H atom. Boom. 6) However, NaH is listed as a catalyst itself, as if it can react with acailable H atoms captured in the R-Ni. Mills is quite specific that the only consumable in the cycle is H2, converted to H[1/4]. All else is regenerated - somehow - in what is called 'bench chemistry'. I can imagine the Na getting spead all over the cell during the reaction. I don't know if just opening the cell and adding water will cause the Na to reaact to produce NaOH again, or just what. No clues given. [An exercise to left for the chemist]. Mike Carrell.
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Ed, Suppose the Ni in contact with NaH provides a place for the electron released from NaH to go that then gives the energy change the right value. After all, NaH does not have a conduction band and the electron could not find a way out of the local system without a conductor with a conduction band being present. If this is the explanation, any finely divided conductor would work, for example finely divided Pd. This idea would suggest that nanosized Pd in a cold fusion environment is only required to take the released electron away from the actual catalyst, which has not been identified in this case. What do you think about this idea? Well - there is plenty of evidence that finely divided Pd does produce excess heat if there is 'something else', correct? And it certainly looks like trial and error is the best way to find that 'something else', At a minimum, with Arrata it was zirconia and almost no added energy and with others it was some form of carbon etc. even coconut shells ;-) It could be that the main difference between using deuterium with palladium instead of Mills protium with nickel is that in the end one gets helium, and possibly more energy per molecule but possibly less in total due to a reverse economy of scale. At least no one has been able to scale-up any CF reactor like Mills has done. It could be that your glow discharge is simply a brute force way of doing what local field gradients on nanoparticles can do somewhat more elegantly... or else the discharge itself is producing the nanoparticle in situ. It seems that all of these various phenomena have a nexus or a connection with the increased surface-area afforded by the small particulate size, and the high field-gradient which can results from simply the geometry, especially if an exciton puts a nominally free electron in some kind of group orbital - say with the quantum dot. One of the biggest things about the Rowan confirmation is the scale-up to commercial size. Can that be done with palladium as easily ? Jones
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP? Ed I'm confused. I was under the impression that the NaH was the catalyst required to form the hydrino. If this is true, what is the role of the Raney nickel? First - there are two very distinct ways to look at this situation. It is somewhat logical to believe, as does Mike Carrell, that Mills got everything right -- and that the energy anomaly he discovered is explainable based precisely on application his CQM theory, and that the theory rules, and that no amount of good fortune is present. This is why Mike constatnly wants people to study Mills theory as if it were gospel. No, Jones, not gospel. I simply want to counter the opposite, that Mills *can't* [or is it musn't?] be right. Many take a quick look a Mills claim or paper, and then go off on a tangent, as you have done, looking for an explanation that fits your accustomed world view. I [and I suspect Mills also] fully expect a firestorm of criticism and search for explanations as the reality of this reaction sets in. Mills may not be entirely correct, but I have seen enough criticism of SQM to realize it is not a gospel to be worshipped either. If that is true, then the nickel probably serves only as a proton conductor and catalyst to remove the proton from the sodium. IOW - those who are strict BLP advocates cannot imagine the situation where Mills could have succeeded, though good fortune alone - and found an experimental anomaly but that it is one that his theory does not explain. In the paper http://www.blacklightpower.com/papers/WFC101608WebS.pdf , equations 23-35, outline the chemical reactions involved. Why assume these are not necessary and suffcient until one has understood them? However, that is merely their interpretation, logical as that may seem, and until more is known - most of us would agree that Mills should be given the benefit of the doubt. There is something much simpler. NaH is formed by reactions given from NaOH coating of the R-Ni and heating. At some point the NaH decomposes, releasing Na and H atoms in close proximity, whereby Na++ then catalyses the H producing H[1/3]. There are aspects of this which puzzle me. Mike Carrell
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:36:46 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] One reaction would be 23Na + (hy) -- 24Mg. Where the pseudo-neutron adds a proton and transmutes sodium into magnesium with very little radioactivity - but there could be energetic betas and soft x-rays. One big difference over a neutron reaction is that the beta-electron is not a decay product - since- it never participates at all, except to serve the purpose of allowing the proton to get into the range of the nuclear strong force and perhaps another QM 'trick' or two. The other would be 62Ni + (hy) -- 63Cu. The latter reaction is far less likely, because the Coulomb barrier is much higher for Ni than for Na. Furthermore, if the latter were happening, then one would also expect to get a few radioactive Cu isotopes forming, based on reactions with the other (more abundant) stable Ni isotopes, e.g. Ni58 + Hy - Cu59. Also, the alternate Na reaction: Na23 + Hy - Ne20 + He4 *may* be more likely, because it uses particles to rapidly rid itself of the reaction energy. The reaction:- Na23 + Hy - Mg24 + e- (fast) is an IC reaction (internal conversion), and essentially relies upon the electron momentarily finding itself inside the new born nucleus. This may be the case if the shrunken Hydrino is captured in its entirety, rather than just the proton being captured. IOW perhaps when the nuclear force captures the proton, the proton takes the shrunken electron along for the ride, then the new nucleus snubs it's nose at the electron and says what are you doing here!, and promptly gives it the boot. ;) (Or perhaps the nuclear force is actually a short range combination of EM forces, and capture of the positive proton is accompanied by a concurrent repulsion of the negative electron - i.e. consider the short range negative field around a neutron)or the fusion reaction results in an excited nucleus, in which baryons are rapidly shifting position, creating EM disturbances that couple to the electron, expelling it in the process...i.e. a transfer of energy via virtual photon. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Mike Here is why you are puzzled. You say: At some point the NaH decomposes, releasing Na and H atoms in close proximity, whereby Na++ then catalyses the H producing H[1/3]. There are aspects of this which puzzle me. No Kidding! Not the least of which puzzlement should be that this species is NOT a decent fit for a catalyst under Mills' CQM criteria. I have a version of CQM written in 2001. Now you may want to say that Mills has refined things since then, but I say instead that he has shoehorned them, based on a lucky finding of an energy anomaly with sodium. For the moment - let's say that back then after nearly a dozen year of going at it - he should have been able to tell what was, and what was not a catalyst, under his theory and here is what he where he places sodium on page 147: Na+ the ion, and not the atom - becomes a catalyst - only when - forced all the way to IP4 by adding the enormous energy of almost 218 eV per atom (a fairly strong x-ray) which will never happen, even of on the far end of Boltzmann's tail - when the input to his reactor is considered. Basically he rejects the idea that Na++ is a catalyst and says that not only must you start with the single Na+ ion, which is no problem, but then all at once you must remove AT THE SAME TIME three additional electrons and with a proton in the vicinity. This is unrealistic, of course, in that type of reactor. This is why I claim that he is shoehorning lucky results, found in experiment, into the theory when in actuality - it is very likely that something else is happening. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:48:33 -0400: Hi, [snip] There is something much simpler. NaH is formed by reactions given from NaOH coating of the R-Ni and heating. At some point the NaH decomposes, releasing Na and H atoms in close proximity, whereby Na++ then catalyses the H producing H[1/3]. There are aspects of this which puzzle me. [snip] According to Randy, the NaH decomposes directly in Na+++ + H[1/3] + 3e- . Na++ is not a catalyst. (The ionization energy is 71.641 eV). In going from H[1] to H[1/3] the H requires an energy hole of 54.4. eV. This is the sum of the first and second ionization energies of Na (5.1391 eV 47.286 eV resp.) and the energy required to break NaH into atoms (about 1.98 eV). IOW the molecule can decompose directly into the final products, and in so doing provides its own energy hole. This is probably why it is so effective (the coupling is all internal within the molecule). BTW the whole hydrino reaction actually produces 108.8 eV, so the difference between the total energy released and the energy hole (54.4 eV) will likely be released as additional kinetic energy IMO. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:04:52 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Robin, The other would be 62Ni + (hy) -- 63Cu. RvS: The latter reaction is far less likely, because the Coulomb barrier is much higher for Ni than for Na. Yes. That is the traditional viewpoint for a charged particle but if the Hy is neutral, up until it gets within range of the strong force, then essentially the Coulomb barrier does not figure in. Hydrinos are generally still so large, that they don't directly come within range of the strong force. That implies that tunneling is still the mechanism, and hence the Coulomb barrier does play a role. This remains true unless minimal sized Hydrinos can form, and even then only if the radius goes as the square of the quantum number, rather than linearly as it does according to Mills. [snip] But yes - I think that the sodium to magnesium route is where things would be more likely to be happening, and once again - why not at least make the minimum effort to look for magesium? [snip] I agree that it should be looked for, however take into account that it is also likely to be a minor contaminant in the Na before the start, and it would only take 23 micrograms of new Mg to account for the excess energy. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Hi Robin, According to Randy, the NaH decomposes directly in Na+++ + H[1/3] + 3e- . LOL !! In going from H[1] to H[1/3] the H requires an energy hole of 54.4. eV. This is the sum of the first and second ionization energies of Na (5.1391 eV 47.286 eV resp.) and the energy required to break NaH into atoms (about 1.98 eV). OK - Here is why that cannot happen. The energy required to break the two into atoms could never result (very low statistical probability) in the H becoming un-ionized while at the same time staying very close by (geometric proximity), while at the exact instant 3 electrons are removed from the sodium. Bizarre. This would be almost laughable if there were not real proof of an anomaly - which there is. Does the anomaly validate the 'shoehorning' and make the bizarre mechanism correct? Possible but doubtful. Which is why I will repeat once again, that the energy anomaly is there -yes- but is extremely unlikely to be related to this exact mechanism; and possibly is more likely IMHO to be related to LENR in some way, since for a dozen or more years on the LENR side, excess energy has been seen with protium+nickel (not this huge of an anomaly but still there). As Ed concludes, we really do not have a workable theory, but it is clear that nanoparticles are very useful and this may be outside of CQM altogether. Please Rowan U, if you are listenting - turn this over to some energetic grad students and test the residue for everything - esp magnesium, copper, helium, etc - and if you cannot tell Randy the results - at least tell me or Robin what you find ! Jones
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:49:22 -0700 (PDT): Hi Jones, Hi Robin, According to Randy, the NaH decomposes directly in Na+++ + H[1/3] + 3e- . LOL !! In going from H[1] to H[1/3] the H requires an energy hole of 54.4. eV. This is the sum of the first and second ionization energies of Na (5.1391 eV 47.286 eV resp.) and the energy required to break NaH into atoms (about 1.98 eV). OK - Here is why that cannot happen. The energy required to break the two into atoms could never result (very low statistical probability) in the H becoming un-ionized while at the same time staying very close by (geometric proximity), while at the exact instant 3 electrons are removed from the sodium. Bizarre. [snip] I think you misunderstand. The energy required to break NaH into atoms is 1.98 eV. The energy required to then ionize the Na to Na+ is 5.1391 eV. The energy required to then ionize the Na+ to Na++ is 47.286 eV. Total 54.405 eV which is an excellent match for an m=2 energy hole. That means that by shrinking from the ground state to n=1/3, the Hydrogen atom gives up first 54.4 eV (the energy hole value), resulting in the specified dissolution, then a further 54.4 eV as kinetic energy of the particles. The total energy released is 108.8 eV. Ionization of the H isn't even on the table, because either the H shrinks to a Hydrino, or nothing at all happens and the NaH simply remains NaH. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
Robin I think you misunderstand. The energy required to break NaH into atoms is 1.98 eV. The energy required to then ionize the Na to Na+ is 5.1391 eV. The energy required to then ionize the Na+ to Na++ is 47.286 eV. Total 54.405 eV which is an excellent match for an m=2 energy hole. I understand all that, but the 1.98 eV is the problem ! ... and its inclusion is irrelevant, almost a fraud. It has no business being considered, since it does not relate to the ionization potential and the hole itself - as it is the obvious shoehorn which unrelated to the electrons which DO make up the hole (at least they do in their absence). I cannot agree in any remote way that an energy hole is created by this additional invention. Where would it end? you could add in all sorts of extraneous stuff to try to balance the books ... and even if it were arguably relevant, he has not even addressed the larger issue of how the atomic hydrogen manages to remains non-ionized in close proximity to the 52+ eV which removes all of the 3 electrons from the sodium. That would be a modern day miracle in itself. This is not even wrong, as they say. I am rather amazed that you have bought into it, if you really have. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Banking on BLP?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:34:47 -0700 (PDT): Hi Jones, [snip] Robin I think you misunderstand. The energy required to break NaH into atoms is 1.98 eV. The energy required to then ionize the Na to Na+ is 5.1391 eV. The energy required to then ionize the Na+ to Na++ is 47.286 eV. Total 54.405 eV which is an excellent match for an m=2 energy hole. I understand all that, but the 1.98 eV is the problem ! ... and its inclusion is irrelevant, almost a fraud. It has no business being considered, since it does not relate to the ionization potential and the hole itself - as it is the obvious shoehorn which unrelated to the electrons which DO make up the hole (at least they do in their absence). Ah, perhaps this is the clue. When Mills talks about an energy hole he is *not* talking about a missing electron as in a hole in a semi-conductor. He simply means an energy sink or sump (like a hole in the ground). IOW something capable of resonantly absorbing a multiple of 27.2 eV. Used in that sense, NaH clearly fits the bill. The 1.98 eV is energy that was released when the NaH was formed from atoms, hence needs to be returned in order to break the molecule apart. I cannot agree in any remote way that an energy hole is created by this additional invention. Where would it end? you could add in all sorts of extraneous stuff to try to balance the books ..and indeed he sometimes does, as long as it results in a net energy hole of 27.2 eV. ... and even if it were arguably relevant, he has not even addressed the larger issue of how the atomic hydrogen manages to remains non-ionized in close proximity to the 52+ eV which removes all of the 3 electrons from the sodium. That would be a modern day miracle in itself. Actually only 2 electrons. I made a mistake in my first email. The atomic Hydrogen doesn't exist, and hence isn't in proximity to anything. The molecule simply decomposes directly into the final bits. (Alternatively a single H atom approaching an NaH molecule undergoes shrinkage while supplying the energy required to break up the molecule and doubly ionize the Na. In this scenario, some of the remaining 54.4 eV may indeed directly ionize the H from the molecule, though that is going to be indistinguishable from H ionized by kinetic energy elsewhere in the cell.) Both mechanisms would have the same result, and hence could be operating concurrently and indistinguishably. The second would require the Ni to create H atoms, and both mechanisms require it, along with the NaOH, to produce NaH. This is not even wrong, as they say. I am rather amazed that you have bought into it, if you really have. It's no more outrageous than K losing three electrons while acting as a catalyst. (Mind you, it's (probably) not harmonically resonant in the tuning fork sense, but it is energetically resonant, where perhaps a virtual photon plays an intermediary role). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
