RE: [Vo]:Electrolysis Looks Very Weird
I'm a bit confused by the activity at the anode. If you remove an O (which becomes O2 pretty quick) aren't you left with free hydrogen in the deal? But you don't get both gases at one electrode. Drift velocity compared to the speed of light is strange enough - now in these liquids we're saying it's true for protons, too. I'm trying to get a better understanding of this because there appears to be solid replications of the Stan Meyer stuff at overunity rates by Real Experienced Academic People. I had given up on Meyer stuff as a hoax but apparently not. http://pesn.com/2009/11/13/9501586_HybridTech-Energy_releases_water-fuel_generator_plans/
Re: [Vo]:Electrolysis Looks Very Weird
http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/33/ Hope this helps (haven't watched the vid but the lecturer, Walter Lewin, is one of the best physics teachers of our times). Michel 2009/11/28 Chris Zell chrisrz...@yahoo.com Ordinary things often look weird to me. Like how do zillions of raindrops create a consistent appearance of a rainbow when they are randomly falling thru the air... seems like you would get a mess of mostly white light and not a neat march of apparently organized Roy G. Biv's.
RE: [Vo]:Electrolysis Looks Very Weird
Chris - Yes protons do become temporarily free near the anode as well -BUT - they cannot form into molecular hydrogen there (at least not very much) due to mutual repulsion of the positive charge. The key cation, going back the other way is hydronium. The dynamics of this are the inverse situation to the anion, previously described. The Wiki entry is pretty good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium In effect the 'extra' proton of hydronium is the species that becomes free on the cathode, to form into hydrogen gas - as described in the previous post. Protons can form into molecular hydrogen there, since the repulsive positive charge is neutralized by the negative electrode. OK - now onto another bit of hot air: there is adequate reason to disbelieve if not ridicule the HybridTech claims. Steer clear of these guys. All the red flags are up. They made silly fundamental errors in overvoltage. The so-called Dr Eaton appears to be more of musician than serious scientist. The video is obviously staged and is not believable to anyone who has experience with this field, and the testing procedure was flawed. I suspect the results were inflated by about 250% over actual. However, there are a few Brown's Gas devices in production now which could be overunity. At least there are a few with a proven track record. The companies that do have workable devices wisely want to fly under the radar for now. Here is one of them: http://thecell.cc/ There was an expo for Brown's Gas inventors last week in Bradenton, Fla - and this device is featured in the video from a previous expo, but you can have a look at the internals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu8ACsUwGFI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu8ACsUwGFIfeature=related feature=related The Cell is of Bob Boyce design - it can be yours for $9000 US tax incl. It is claimed to pay off its high cost - for a big-rig diesel truck, in a year or less. It is actually a pretty well thought-out design. There are some unscientific results on the website that are interesting, but more needs to be done to prove it - . except the company is smart enough at this stage - to sell by word of mouth and to NOT advertise, nor to alert the ingrained political forces that oppose this technology. The BOO-PAC payoff to politicians (BOO= Big oil + OPEC) is estimated to be over $100 million per year and that money buys protection. The device above is sold only through truck dealers. Truckers are generally small businessmen who must buy lots of fuel for long hauls - and are not easy to fool. If the device were not effective, and with a short payback time - then they would not be buying them by the hundreds. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Once sales get to a higher level, the fur will fly, as they say. CAVEAT there are dozens (maybe near 100) of pretenders - hobbyists, and scam artists like Dennis Lee who are selling dubious electrolysis devices on the internet in mason jars, etc. Buyer beware. HybridTech looks to me like the latest version of snake oil. Jones From: Chris Zell I'm a bit confused by the activity at the anode. If you remove an O (which becomes O2 pretty quick) aren't you left with free hydrogen in the deal? But you don't get both gases at one electrode. Drift velocity compared to the speed of light is strange enough - now in these liquids we're saying it's true for protons, too. I'm trying to get a better understanding of this because there appears to be solid replications of the Stan Meyer stuff at overunity rates by Real Experienced Academic People. I had given up on Meyer stuff as a hoax but apparently not. http://pesn.com/2009/11/13/9501586_HybridTech-Energy_releases_water-fuel_gen erator_plans/
[Vo]:Electrolysis Looks Very Weird
Ordinary things often look weird to me. Like how do zillions of raindrops create a consistent appearance of a rainbow when they are randomly falling thru the air... seems like you would get a mess of mostly white light and not a neat march of apparently organized Roy G. Biv's. Anyhow, forgive my ignorance but electrolysis looks very weird to me. If I didn't know that DC can create bubbles of O2 and H2, I say it was some 'cold fusion' hoax ( a joke). A flow of current tears a couple Hydrogen atoms loose but somehow the now free Oxygen only appears a zillion skillion light years away (relative to being an atom) at the other electrode. How this communicates across a vast expanse of random billiard balls whacking around is beyond me. It looks like a prisoner exchange in a spy novel except over ridiculous distances and involving grabbing a passing citizen and telling them they can walk thru Checkpoint Charlie ( a cold war reference) to freedom right now if they pair up with somebody else. Meanwhile, I'm told that all sorts of freaks like H3O are just wandering around but otherwise unseen. Very weird.
RE: [Vo]:Electrolysis Looks Very Weird
From: Chris Zell * A flow of current tears a couple Hydrogen atoms loose but somehow the now free Oxygen only appears a zillion skillion light years away (relative to being an atom) at the other electrode. How this communicates across a vast expanse of random billiard balls whacking around is beyond me. Chris - the spy part, and the 'impossible transfer' of oxygen over a relatively large distance -sounds much interesting as a fictional story, but the reality of the situation is much more mundane. No magic here, at least not until we bring in the replacement actors (fractional hydrogen etc). On the cathode, a temporarily free or transient proton (protons are almost always temporarily free) is captured by electrostatic attraction to the negative charge on the metal surface - and immediately pairs with another proton . but the molecular species that is left in the general vicinity of the donor water molecule, is the hydroxyl ion, not oxygen. And the ion does not need to go far to complete the transaction. This OH- ion which has lost a proton, and which is identical to all of the zillion, skillion other hydroxyls which are present in the electrolyte, does not really need to move more than a few angstroms spatially - since it has an identical twin, which is close to the anode, and it is that remote twin which provides the oxygen for the bubble forming over there on the anode . way, way over there. IOW any hydroxyl ion is fungible and only moves slowly although the net flow of current is rapid. So - in effect, the first hydroxy near the cathode is merely a replacement for another one, and for something which can happen later - and there is a slow migration, over millions of iterations - rather than a magical and instantaneous jump - over a vast expanse of little billiard balls. In a way this is similar to current flow in normal metal conduction where the so-called drift velocity of electrons is slow compared to the emf, which is about half of lightspeed in conductive metals. Jones
