Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
On 2021-12-03 02:51, Robin wrote: If you put your detector in a well grounded Faraday cage, it may eliminate most radio interference produced by sparking. Use metal (not nylon) fly wire for the Faraday cage (or at least for a window if you prefer the whole cage be made of metal sheet). The space between the wires is small enough to shield most EM below about 150 GHz, but alpha, beta, or gamma should get through easily. I suggest you add a little credit card sized microprocessor to the detector, that can run on batteries for a few hours, and can easily be included in the Faraday cage, with no protruding wires. The microprocessor can log the counts, and the time, and store it on a microSD card for later use. (Protruding wires would act as an antenna, for the EM, defeating the purpose of the Faraday cage.) BTW to eliminate the Radon, just make the experiment portable, and take it elsewhere. Also let the detector run for a while before the experiment starts, so that you get a good indication of average background radiation. My Geiger detector was apparently immune to the sparking and it never showed anything that could be attributed to that. On the other hand, it seemed sensitive to radioactive dust and one time I managed increase the already somewhat high background signal by 3 times by just putting it in front of a 120mm fan in a closed room. I never saw anything with it during the tests after enclosing it in a sealed plastic box. I don't have the Geiger counter anymore, in any case. The CMOS/CCD webcam detector could possibly benefit from being put in a sealed box inside a Faraday cage; whether it would be able to see much more than background radiation is the question. The low sensitivity (counts per unit of time) is a problem. Variations due to temperature are also an issue. When it did not malfunction, proximity to the plasma electrolysis cell increased the amount of false detections due to sensor noise). I thought in the past about using a Faraday cage, but in the end also due to the very low budget nature of the tests I just "embraced" such emissions and tried finding conditions that maximized them. Generally this simply meant using higher voltages (typically up to 72V in my case, which is unsustainable for more than short periods with KOH at or close to saturation at room temperature due to the violent reaction), although other parameters also have an effect as mentioned earlier. It seems for example that the hotter the cathode, the higher the emissions, which appears to make sense on an intuitive level (stronger thermionic emission). Cathode materials that do not oxidize easily also seemed to work better. Some authors have suggested that the electromagnetic emission itself is the result of novel processes occurring in the plasma/spark reaction, so just measuring the EMI seemed like it would be a very simple strategy to maximize them. Thus my tests were mostly focused on lowering the voltage from which the plasma reaction could start and increasing the amount of EMI generated. I never tried seriously measuring excess heat. Evaporation calorimetry is not straightforward because much of the electrolyte is efficiently aerosolized from the cathode region, which may give the impression of much larger heat generated than in reality. Measuring the temperature in one single point may also give false results due to heat stratification or heat gradients in the electrolyte (highly likely for cathodic plasma electrolysis). Cheers, BA
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
In reply to Bill Antoni's message of Fri, 3 Dec 2021 02:21:19 +0100: Hi, If you put your detector in a well grounded Faraday cage, it may eliminate most radio interference produced by sparking. Use metal (not nylon) fly wire for the Faraday cage (or at least for a window if you prefer the whole cage be made of metal sheet). The space between the wires is small enough to shield most EM below about 150 GHz, but alpha, beta, or gamma should get through easily. I suggest you add a little credit card sized microprocessor to the detector, that can run on batteries for a few hours, and can easily be included in the Faraday cage, with no protruding wires. The microprocessor can log the counts, and the time, and store it on a microSD card for later use. (Protruding wires would act as an antenna, for the EM, defeating the purpose of the Faraday cage.) BTW to eliminate the Radon, just make the experiment portable, and take it elsewhere. Also let the detector run for a while before the experiment starts, so that you get a good indication of average background radiation. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
On 2021-12-03 01:18, Robin wrote: If a measurable amount of energy is produced by the cell, and is of nuclear origin, then even an insensitive detector should pick up multiple counts / second. To test your detector, you can use an Americium based smoke detector. That's only about 1 micro Curie, and any significant energy production should produce much more than that. At the time I tried putting the webcam detector close to a KOH canister (slightly radioactive), and there was a slight increase in the number of events (mainly "spots"). The Geiger counter I had earlier on also responded to the KOH canister at close distance. I don't think measurable gamma radiation is going to get directly emitted by experiments like the ones I toyed with, but I find likely that the strong EMI occasionally produced could affect the electronics of more sensitive radiation detectors and potentially give artifacts. If there is more behind that (perhaps even novel forms of radiation), it might require different detector types than used conventionally. Cheers, BA
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
In reply to Bill Antoni's message of Thu, 2 Dec 2021 23:47:50 +0100: Hi, [snip] >I tried a webcam/CCD/CMOS detector and while it seems to work for cosmic >muons, on the long term (unpowered cell) it appears to work like a very >insensitive Geiger counter (giving only a few hundred "events" per day), If a measurable amount of energy is produced by the cell, and is of nuclear origin, then even an insensitive detector should pick up multiple counts / second. To test your detector, you can use an Americium based smoke detector. That's only about 1 micro Curie, and any significant energy production should produce much more than that. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
On 2021-12-02 22:00, Jones Beene wrote: Do you by any chance have a radiation monitor capable of seeing a signal from your cell when unpowered ? It would be significant if there was an increase in counts which tracked the onset of a visible plasma (assuming the plasma itself is below the threshold for detection) I used to have a cheap Geiger counter, but since my background radiation level is too high with daily variations attributable due to radon gas, I've never been able to get useful measurements out of it, so eventually I gave it away. A more sensitive detector similar to one described by Holmlid in a few publications (the "muon detector") would likely work, but it would require a budget of at least 1000-1500$ (with used parts from Ebay or similar) which I cannot justify spending. I tried a webcam/CCD/CMOS detector and while it seems to work for cosmic muons, on the long term (unpowered cell) it appears to work like a very insensitive Geiger counter (giving only a few hundred "events" per day), also tracking daily local radon variations. Furthermore, when the plasma reaction is ongoing, the camera may be affected by heat (increasing background/thermal noise) and electromagnetic emissions from the cell (causing random camera malfunctions) if it's too close, so overall I haven't had much luck with it. I have more successfully measured RF emissions with a 30$ USB-SDR receiver. Measuring signal amplitude in real-time gives a good idea of how intense the reaction is and how it changes with experimental conditions. Curiously, RF emissions increase to a moderately high level just before a visible plasma starts appearing (apparently reflecting current instabilities), then drop to a low level as it appears, and finally progressively increase as voltage is further increased, up to intense levels. Supposedly, it is possible to optimize the reaction with this real-time information. No way of detecting a signal with the cell powered off without some sort of heavy shielding though, due to background RF emissions. Judging by RF emissions, the same plasma reaction appears to emit significantly stronger emissions (keeping other variables about the same) when an acidic electrolyte like 10% HCl is used instead of KOH. Higher concentration HCl or sulfuric acid solution could probably give interesting results in this regard but I never dared trying: the fumes need to be vented away safely and droplet formation is an issue (after a period of operation, most surfaces surrounding the cell become covered by tiny electrolyte droplets, which can be a serious hazard at high electrolyte concentration). With an acidic electrolyte (10% HCl, that I tried) if you drop a thin cathode wire very slowly into the liquid it is also possible to observe a weak plasma from the nano-sized dendrites formed by electroplating from as low as 15V or less (slightly higher values preferred), but no strong RF emissions occur compared to the "true" plasma electrolysis reaction at higher voltages. I hope this helps, Cheers, BA
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
Bill Antoni wrote: > in relation to Robin's suggestion of using a saturated KOH solution in an > electrolytic cell, which I found interesting because that is something I > personally explored a while back in crude experiments, as it can > significantly lower the voltage from which a visible plasma can be observed > (about 25-30V) Do you by any chance have a radiation monitor capable of seeing a signal from your cell when unpowered ? It would be significant if there was an increase in counts which tracked the onset of a visible plasma (assuming the plasma itself is below the threshold for detection)
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
On 2021-12-02 19:35, Jones Beene wrote: This doesn't give us much of a clue about what could be the cause of excess hydrogen... unless Holmlid's muons are carrying away heat somehow while splitting off protons in the process. The authors suggested that thermolysis was occurring, i.e. that water was being split by the heat of the plasma reaction. My supposition is that excess hydrogen was observed when at least part of it was not "consumed" inside the cell (producing excess heat there). Possibly the heat of formation of Hydrinos could be involved instead? Admittedly, this does not have much to do with the initial NMR idea of this thread and I was not trying to link it to that. It was more in relation to Robin's suggestion of using a saturated KOH solution in an electrolytic cell, which I found interesting because that is something I personally explored a while back in crude experiments, as it can significantly lower the voltage from which a visible plasma can be observed (about 25-30V). Other electrolytes at saturation concentration are instead more likely to accumulate on the cathode and dissociate there, producing larger amounts of metallic K which might actually be more useful for Robin's proposal. Cheers, BA
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
Bill Antoni wrote: > FWIW, excess hydrogen output (relative to Faraday efficiency) has been > measured in plasma electrolysis cells in the early 2000s by Mizuno et al., > but they found it to be correlated with negative heat (endothermic > reaction). When excess heat was present, there was no excess hydrogen... > Furthermore, in their case the overall energetic efficiency was low due to > the high voltages required. This doesn't give us much of a clue about what could be the cause of excess hydrogen... unless Holmlid's muons are carrying away heat somehow while splitting off protons in the process. An interesting and slightly different approach about increasing the 40K decay rate is based on acknowledging that it should be forbidden altogether, given the nuclear spins involved. Of all isotopes - this is the longest known half-life for any primordial positron-emitter... which is due to spin 4 -- and since its decay products have spin 0. This anomaly makes me think that by strongly increasing Larmor precession i.e. the nuclear spin of the electrolyte - then the half-life can of 40K will be shortened and maybe the result will be seen as gammas. This supposes that there is a connection between spin and nuclear stability that is not fully understood. That outcome would possibly make it worthwhile to design a simple experiment to investigate,
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
On 2021-12-01 19:33, Jones Beene wrote: [...] "IF" (big if) *unusually high hydrogen output* from an RF electrolysis cell can be demonstrated, then good evidence of what is happening to account for the gain - whether it is Millsean/Holmlid or instead is related to nuclear beta decay, can be as simple and foolproof as the detection of anomalous argon. FWIW, excess hydrogen output (relative to Faraday efficiency) has been measured in plasma electrolysis cells in the early 2000s by Mizuno et al., but they found it to be correlated with negative heat (endothermic reaction). When excess heat was present, there was no excess hydrogen. Furthermore, in their case the overall energetic efficiency was low due to the high voltages required (hundreds of volts). See Mizuno's papers here: - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239053742_Hydrogen_Evolution_by_Plasma_Electrolysis_in_Aqueous_Solution - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237284616_Generation_of_Heat_and_Products_During_Plasma_Electrolysis_in_Liquid Cheers, BA
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
This article was sent to me on the related topic of 'magnetic water-splitting' (related to NMR in the obvious way). Magnet doubles hydrogen yield from water splitting Aligning the spin states of oxygen intermediates overcomes a bottleneck in electrolysishttps://cen.acs.org/physical-chemistry/Magnet-doubles-hydrogen-yield-water/97/web/2019/06 There is a case to be made for an entirely new way to split water - using RF with strong magnets and potassium NMR. A side effect would be cooling of the electrolyte. "IF" (big if) unusually high hydrogen output from an RF electrolysis cell can be demonstrated, then good evidence of what is happening to account for the gain - whether it is Millsean/Holmlid or instead is related to nuclear beta decay, can be as simple and foolproof as the detection of anomalous argon. The transmutation test of interest is called "K-Ar dating" and many University Geology Labs have the capability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E2%80%93Ar_dating Of course there could be two different causes for gain but the more the merrier.
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
On 2021-12-01 01:57, Robin wrote: In an electrolytic cell both H and K will form at the cathode, though the K will only be short lived because it combines with water to form KOH & H. However if a K atom and an H atom form in close proximity to one another at the same time, then the possibility exists that the K will catalyze a shrinkage reaction of the H (m=3), before it combines with water. To facilitate this process, the KOH should be a saturated solution, and the cathode atoms as close together as possible. This is interesting. In a saturated KOH aqueous solution, if the voltage is high enough (you shouldn't be afraid to use tens of volts if necessary) and the cathode thin enough (in the form of wires), solid KOH will likely accumulate on the cathode and start dissociating into K metal beneath it. When that happens, it is possible to see small sparks and explosions as it reacts with water and presumably hydrogen. This is much simpler (and safer) to observe with potassium carbonate and possibly bicarbonate, however. With KOH close to saturation, plasma electrolysis starts occurring first; you have to add more KOH than saturation at room temperature to make it accumulate when it is operating. Unsafe and wasteful. I think something similar to molten salt electrolysis starts occurring under these conditions, with the difference that hydrogen from water dissociation is also present (interesting for LENR?). The gallery linked below shows short animations from tests with mainly K2CO3 and some NaHCO3 (which seemed to make accumulation easier) at various concentrations and conditions that I made months ago. https://imgur.com/a/7OsftYm Cheers, BA
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 30 Nov 2021 22:02:46 + (UTC): Hi Jones, Further to the Mills option: In an electrolytic cell both H and K will form at the cathode, though the K will only be short lived because it combines with water to form KOH & H. However if a K atom and an H atom form in close proximity to one another at the same time, then the possibility exists that the K will catalyze a shrinkage reaction of the H (m=3), before it combines with water. To facilitate this process, the KOH should be a saturated solution, and the cathode atoms as close together as possible. This is the case with Cobalt, so a Cobalt plated cathode may yield the best results. Zn is almost as good, and readily available from an old carbon-zinc cell. Zn may not fair well in a strongly alkaline environment, though it would have "cathodic protection". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 30 Nov 2021 22:02:46 + (UTC): Hi Jones, [snip] > Robin, your comment brings up an interesting possibility - at least for > water-splitting... given the large amount of effort that has gone into > efficient electrolysis over the past few decades > >There is copious data to indicate that KOH electrolysis can exceed "unity" ... >by a small amount, but "how" this controversial result could ever happen in >practice, is far from clear. Is there an unexpected (non-thermal and perhaps >photonic pathway such as EUV ) mechanism at work? I think that Mills is probably a better explanation in this case. > >Is there any chance that NMR resonance itself transfers a few eV of >mass/energy locally from the K nucleus to the chemical bond of water, which >then results in splitting off a proton ?? And after long use then results in a >novel kind of nuclear reaction as a book-balancer... changing the nuclear >dynamics from push to pull > > >Robin wrote: >If I understand this correctly, the reaction of K40 + e- => Ar40 should yield >about 2.5 MeV. However I suspect that most >of the energy would be carried away, never to be seen again, by the neutrino. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
Robin, your comment brings up an interesting possibility - at least for water-splitting... given the large amount of effort that has gone into efficient electrolysis over the past few decades There is copious data to indicate that KOH electrolysis can exceed "unity" ... by a small amount, but "how" this controversial result could ever happen in practice, is far from clear. Is there an unexpected (non-thermal and perhaps photonic pathway such as EUV ) mechanism at work? Is there any chance that NMR resonance itself transfers a few eV of mass/energy locally from the K nucleus to the chemical bond of water, which then results in splitting off a proton ?? And after long use then results in a novel kind of nuclear reaction as a book-balancer... changing the nuclear dynamics from push to pull Robin wrote: If I understand this correctly, the reaction of K40 + e- => Ar40 should yield about 2.5 MeV. However I suspect that most of the energy would be carried away, never to be seen again, by the neutrino.
Re: [Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 30 Nov 2021 19:32:23 + (UTC): Hi, If I understand this correctly, the reaction of K40 + e- => Ar40 should yield about 2.5 MeV. However I suspect that most of the energy would be carried away, never to be seen again, by the neutrino. >An accelerated weak-force interaction - as odd as this possibility may sound - >could be of interest to those trying to find and optimize what is in fact >"real" nuclear energy - but which may have been classified as LENR or Millsean >- formerly. > >This is rather ironic but the radioactive isotope of potassium, 40 K, has been >tossed around for decades as being a prime hidden candidate for accelerated >decay (assuming such is possible) and "free" energy. It does turn up >prominently in experiments where energy gain is claimed. Curiously the patent >in question does not mention the weak force or accelerated decay of potassium. >Nor does it mention the Mills connection but it does supply some interesting >thinking about a procedure to implement EC. Too bad that the IP (apparently) >went nowhere. > >?BTW - Excess energy of 40K potassium is 33.5 MeV per nucleon but the natural >abundance of the rare isotope is only one part in 10,000 in natural ore, so >the potential energy available - if it were not for the long half-life, is >about a pound of KOH as the equal of a ton of coal. Not bad especially if that >excess energy could be used to spit water, which is the interesting thing >about lye - it has always been known to be the best electrolyte available. > >One idea for ultra efficient electrolysis would be to use RF instead of DC at >the NMR frequency (a few MHz dependent on an applied magnetic field). > >The title of the expired patent is "Electron capture by Magnetic Resonance" >Inventor Edwin Bondoc WO2003019219A1 (originally in French) Note- this is >about generalized electron capture; > >https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2003019219A1/en?oq=WO2003019219A1 Regards, Robin van Spaandonk
[Vo]:Electron capture acceleration via NMR ?
An accelerated weak-force interaction - as odd as this possibility may sound - could be of interest to those trying to find and optimize what is in fact "real" nuclear energy - but which may have been classified as LENR or Millsean - formerly. This is rather ironic but the radioactive isotope of potassium, 40 K, has been tossed around for decades as being a prime hidden candidate for accelerated decay (assuming such is possible) and "free" energy. It does turn up prominently in experiments where energy gain is claimed. Curiously the patent in question does not mention the weak force or accelerated decay of potassium. Nor does it mention the Mills connection but it does supply some interesting thinking about a procedure to implement EC. Too bad that the IP (apparently) went nowhere. BTW - Excess energy of 40K potassium is 33.5 MeV per nucleon but the natural abundance of the rare isotope is only one part in 10,000 in natural ore, so the potential energy available - if it were not for the long half-life, is about a pound of KOH as the equal of a ton of coal. Not bad especially if that excess energy could be used to spit water, which is the interesting thing about lye - it has always been known to be the best electrolyte available. One idea for ultra efficient electrolysis would be to use RF instead of DC at the NMR frequency (a few MHz dependent on an applied magnetic field). The title of the expired patent is "Electron capture by Magnetic Resonance" Inventor Edwin Bondoc WO2003019219A1 (originally in French) Note- this is about generalized electron capture; https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2003019219A1/en?oq=WO2003019219A1
