Re: [Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
If radiative cooling technology, such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caFzYvYAUo4 were coupled to thermoelectric materials or to a sterling engine then electricity could be generated. Harry On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 9:37 AM Jones Beene wrote: > The most interesting new - but actually old - engine development (esp. for > those who think LENR has a future in transportation) is the re-emergence of > the Stilrling design. This engine design and the Brayton cycle, in general, > never made the grade for commercialization - before now, at least. > > Change is in the air... so to speak. Unfortunately China, once again, is > making large engineering gains while we seem to be playing catchup. > > https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202112/1243157.shtml > > Quote: "the basic prototype of China's first large-bore Stirling engine > successfully conducted the recent performance test... at a rated power of > 320 kilowatts with a power conversion efficiency of 40 percent, making it > the most powerful Stirling engine known around the globe." > > There are few if any diesels which can return 40% efficiency but China got > there on the first prototype, > > The reason that the piston-Sterling could potentially augment LENR is not > well appreciated either. Basically it is because the Brayton cycle is > inherently *closed-cycle*. The Stirling can be either piston or turbine > based, but the piston config is what LENR can possibly optimize with few > changes. > > IOW the closed-cycle is one way to expose a metal catalyst to a flow of > hydrogen without combustion of the hydrogen itself. > > Thus, if the working gas contains even a small percentage of hydrogen and > the piston crown is coated with nickel/palladium alloy, then extra heat > could potentially be extracted - on top of the external heat of combustion > which occurs else where in the design, The LENR would be a booster, so to > speak, > > Will China be the first to realize this ? They did after all, report on > replicating Arata and that was a decade ago. > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > H LV wrote: > > We don't really know how steam engines would have evolved because they > were out-competed by diesel engines. > > > As I recall, the last attempts to compete with Diesel engines was with > steam turbines. This source says the Union Pacific actually made two steam > turbine locomotives, and tested them, in 1939 and 1962. > > >
Re: [Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
A diesel with double turbo loader is above 50% efficiency. You will never get there with a sterling motor in a reasonable temperature range. Key is to extract all kinetic energy in a gas explosion what cannot be done with a sterling motor. But you can run a sterling motor even with burning aluminum. But if you stay in a jam your COP goes to minus infinite...With all motors except electric that can just switch off. Starters for normal motors waste a lot of gasoline, so it is not recommended to switch off for short (<15 seconds) stays except with tuned electronics. J.W. On 04.01.2022 15:37, Jones Beene wrote: The most interesting new - but actually old - engine development (esp. for those who think LENR has a future in transportation) is the re-emergence of the Stilrling design. This engine design and the Brayton cycle, in general, never made the grade for commercialization - before now, at least. Change is in the air... so to speak. Unfortunately China, once again, is making large engineering gains while we seem to be playing catchup. https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202112/1243157.shtml Quote: "the basic prototype of China's first large-bore Stirling engine successfully conducted the recent performance test... at a rated power of 320 kilowatts with a power conversion efficiency of 40 percent, making it the most powerful Stirling engine known around the globe." There are few if any diesels which can return 40% efficiency but China got there on the first prototype, The reason that the piston-Sterling could potentially augment LENR is not well appreciated either. Basically it is because the Brayton cycle is inherently *closed-cycle*. The Stirling can be either piston or turbine based, but the piston config is what LENR can possibly optimize with few changes. IOW the closed-cycle is one way to expose a metal catalyst to a flow of hydrogen without combustion of the hydrogen itself. Thus, if the working gas contains even a small percentage of hydrogen and the piston crown is coated with nickel/palladium alloy, then extra heat could potentially be extracted - on top of the external heat of combustion which occurs else where in the design, The LENR would be a booster, so to speak, Will China be the first to realize this ? They did after all, report on replicating Arata and that was a decade ago. Jed Rothwell wrote: H LV wrote: We don't really know how steam engines would have evolved because they were out-competed by diesel engines. As I recall, the last attempts to compete with Diesel engines was with steam turbines. This source says the Union Pacific actually made two steam turbine locomotives, and tested them, in 1939 and 1962. -- Jürg Wyttenbach Bifangstr. 22 8910 Affoltern am Albis +41 44 760 14 18 +41 79 246 36 06
Re: [Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
The most interesting new - but actually old - engine development (esp. for those who think LENR has a future in transportation) is the re-emergence of the Stilrling design. This engine design and the Brayton cycle, in general, never made the grade for commercialization - before now, at least. Change is in the air... so to speak. Unfortunately China, once again, is making large engineering gains while we seem to be playing catchup. https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202112/1243157.shtml Quote: "the basic prototype of China's first large-bore Stirling engine successfully conducted the recent performance test... at a rated power of 320 kilowatts with a power conversion efficiency of 40 percent, making it the most powerful Stirling engine known around the globe." There are few if any diesels which can return 40% efficiency but China got there on the first prototype, The reason that the piston-Sterling could potentially augment LENR is not well appreciated either. Basically it is because the Brayton cycle is inherently closed-cycle. The Stirling can be either piston or turbine based, but the piston config is what LENR can possibly optimize with few changes. IOW the closed-cycle is one way to expose a metal catalyst to a flow of hydrogen without combustion of the hydrogen itself. Thus, if the working gas contains even a small percentage of hydrogen and the piston crown is coated with nickel/palladium alloy, then extra heat could potentially be extracted - on top of the external heat of combustion which occurs else where in the design, The LENR would be a booster, so to speak, Will China be the first to realize this ? They did after all, report on replicating Arata and that was a decade ago. Jed Rothwell wrote: H LV wrote: We don't really know how steam engines would have evolved because they were out-competed by diesel engines. As I recall, the last attempts to compete with Diesel engines was with steam turbines. This source says the Union Pacific actually made two steam turbine locomotives, and tested them, in 1939 and 1962.
Re: [Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
H LV wrote: We don't really know how steam engines would have evolved because they were > out-competed by diesel engines. > As I recall, the last attempts to compete with Diesel engines was with steam turbines. This source says the Union Pacific actually made two steam turbine locomotives, and tested them, in 1939 and 1962. They were not successful. It says a number of gas turbine locomotives were actually made and used commercially: https://www.up.com/aboutup/special_trains/gas-turbine/index.htm A steam turbine would be the expected evolution, because that is what was used in the last generation of marine steam engines, and what is still used today in steam powered electric generators. An interesting "what if" history question is: What would have happened if the Seebeck thermoelectric effect had been developed? Seebeck discovered it in 1822. It was only a fraction of a percent efficient, but steam engines were not much better at that point in history. Suppose more research had been done, or someone had gotten lucky, and 5% or 10% efficient Seeback devices had been developed. In that scenario we might have had coal fired thermoelectric locomotives by the mid-19th century, and maybe a lot else. Electric motors were not developed intensively until 1879, when Edison first invented a practical incandescent light, and then went on to invent a whole plethora of other electric gadgets such as improved generators, meters, distribution networks, and in May 1880, the first small electric powered railroad, that carried about a dozen people: https://www.edn.com/edisons-1st-test-of-electric-railway-may-13-1880/ The speed of Edison's R was astounding.
Re: [Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
Thanks. So it was a "gag". Harry On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 12:58 PM MSF wrote: > > I take it I'm the only Vort with first-hand experience with these old > beasts. My grandfather was a brakeman on the Union Pacific railroad when I > was a little boy. Back then, while all the passenger trains were > diesel-electric, a lot of the freight haulers were still steam. Old Gramps > would take me down to the yard and have one of his engineer friends let me > ride in one of the steam locomotives once in while. > I can't tell you how much fun that was. > > There is no steam where Buster Keaton appears to light his cigarette. > That's the smoke box, the least hot part of the boiler where the exhaust > from the coal fire goes. I'm sure the cigarette was already lit. I know > from trying, if you touch the side of a steam locomotive, it's about as hot > as clothing iron. You can wet your finger and make it go kssst. > > After this long nostalgic preamble, the answer to your question is no. > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Sunday, January 2nd, 2022 at 11:55 PM, H LV > wrote: > > In this short clip Buster Keaton lights a cigarette by pressing it against > the boiler of a steam locomotive. > Would the surface of the boiler get hot enough to do that? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AIyB_-HYcs > > Harry > > >
Re: [Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
The changing dreamscape. We don't really know how steam engines would have evolved because they were out-competed by diesel engines. The steam engine really became obsolete because it was incapable of turning *particular* dreams into reality. Harry On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 9:08 PM William Beaty wrote: > > Live steam. No upper temperature limit. Steam jet flays tissue right > off bones, chars bones.Also, OST Buster Keaton inertial compensators, > for infinite-acceleration brakes, back when Star Trek was still in > the silent film era, and only had one warp nacelle, painted black. > > > > > On Sun, 2 Jan 2022, H LV wrote: > > > In this short clip Buster Keaton lights a cigarette by pressing it > against > > the boiler of a steam locomotive. > > Would the surface of the boiler get hot enough to do that? > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AIyB_-HYcs > > > > Harry > > > > > > > > > > (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) > William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
I take it I'm the only Vort with first-hand experience with these old beasts. My grandfather was a brakeman on the Union Pacific railroad when I was a little boy. Back then, while all the passenger trains were diesel-electric, a lot of the freight haulers were still steam. Old Gramps would take me down to the yard and have one of his engineer friends let me ride in one of the steam locomotives once in while. I can't tell you how much fun that was. There is no steam where Buster Keaton appears to light his cigarette. That's the smoke box, the least hot part of the boiler where the exhaust from the coal fire goes. I'm sure the cigarette was already lit. I know from trying, if you touch the side of a steam locomotive, it's about as hot as clothing iron. You can wet your finger and make it go kssst. After this long nostalgic preamble, the answer to your question is no. ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Sunday, January 2nd, 2022 at 11:55 PM, H LV wrote: > In this short clip Buster Keaton lights a cigarette by pressing it against > the boiler of a steam locomotive. > Would the surface of the boiler get hot enough to do that? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AIyB_-HYcs > > Harry
Re: [Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
Live steam. No upper temperature limit. Steam jet flays tissue right off bones, chars bones.Also, OST Buster Keaton inertial compensators, for infinite-acceleration brakes, back when Star Trek was still in the silent film era, and only had one warp nacelle, painted black. On Sun, 2 Jan 2022, H LV wrote: In this short clip Buster Keaton lights a cigarette by pressing it against the boiler of a steam locomotive. Would the surface of the boiler get hot enough to do that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AIyB_-HYcs Harry (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
[Vo]:OT: steam locomotive
In this short clip Buster Keaton lights a cigarette by pressing it against the boiler of a steam locomotive. Would the surface of the boiler get hot enough to do that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AIyB_-HYcs Harry
