RE: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Rick Monteverde r...@highsurf.com wrote: Of course there are a few right here in our own neighborhood that are decent candidates for deep bio activity. And aside from that one where we are to attempt no landing..., we wouldn't have to fight off those annoying blue people just to have a look. Besides the latest monolith creations on Europa, and the Na'vi, you have these guys to contend with somewhere beyond Jupiter... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37ybGrKCJFw At least they have those excellent sunshades. On the subject of alien life, I often wonder why these days it is becoming most common to portray nontechnological alien intelligence. N = n* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x fL, so says Drake and Sagan. No one seems to like fc any more. To play devil's advocate, I could say, Spaceman General's Warning: fc may be hazardous to your fL. But then, so can asteroids. Alpha Centauri must have at least a few, and what with two other stars quite close, collisions might be frequent. Maybe the tree the Na'vi have is an asteroid defense system left behind by the guys who gave the Fithp (weren't they also from Alpha Centauri?) their 'thuktunthp' (translation, big damn rocks)? If there are not intelligent, technologically advanced communicative civilizations out there, the universe suddenly seems a far more lonely place. Years ago, I watched Sagan's 'COSMOS', and recall in episode 12 when he discussed the Drake equation, and how few there might be out there. The suggestion of N = 10, and his assertion that, if that is the case, there may be no one to talk to, sent a chill up my spine. The stars suddenly seemed very empty. But in many ways now, it seems like people crave this. There's certainly one special interest group that adores the idea of the noble savage from another star, but... that is what it is. Back in the good ol' days, the advancement of a civilization was roughly represented by the Kardashev scale. Apparently we're somewhat close to Type I. The Na'vi would be immeasureably close to Type 0.0, with maybe some allowance for basic energy expendature (fire, animal husbandry, using wind, etc.). Maybe the tree expends energy. By and large, it seems that the primitive, nontechnological aliens are noble savages, and really are Good People, while the technologically advanced starfaring aliens are just bent on blasting the White House and enslaving/killing/eating/etc. humanity for no good reason. They don't think, they don't care, they don't dream. They just kill, because all that steel makes them bad. --Kyle
RE: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax ... maybe those bacteria are smarter than we think. Interesting statement, reflecting a notion that's starting to catch on from different disciplines and directions. That would also explain the coincidence of natural gas (or oil, if that's the case) and helium. Nice hook to astrobiology too - possible implications for remote detection methods? Link below to a purely chemical example from a few years ago, but not methane. I'm tired of methane.g http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2843-acidic-clouds-of-venus-could-harb our-life.html R.
RE: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
-Original Message- From: Rick Monteverde Abd ul-Rahman Lomax: ... maybe those bacteria are smarter than we think. Interesting statement, reflecting a notion that's starting to catch on from different disciplines and directions. That would also explain the coincidence of natural gas (or oil, if that's the case) and helium. Nice hook to astrobiology too - possible implications for remote detection methods? Check this out: http://insciences.org/article.php?article_id=7934 If deep planetary bacteria can evolve to breathe rocks then Martian life (or even lunar life) could be hundred of meters below the surface - and given the moon is pretty chilly at depth, perhaps some of these evolved to use LENR ? g Probably not out moon, but there are zillions of moons out there to colonize. Jones
RE: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
Jones Beene: ... there are zillions of moons out there to colonize Of course there are a few right here in our own neighborhood that are decent candidates for deep bio activity. And aside from that one where we are to attempt no landing..., we wouldn't have to fight off those annoying blue people just to have a look. - R.
Re: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
Just take along cans of Fancy Feast. Hey it worked in District 9. And the Pandorians really are cats. T On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Rick Monteverde r...@highsurf.com wrote: Jones Beene: ... there are zillions of moons out there to colonize Of course there are a few right here in our own neighborhood that are decent candidates for deep bio activity. And aside from that one where we are to attempt no landing..., we wouldn't have to fight off those annoying blue people just to have a look. - R.
Re: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
Just take along cans of Fancy Feast. Hey it worked in District 9. And the Pandorians really are cats. An excellent film that unfortunately will be stampeded by Avatar. I can see it now. Coming to your local science fiction convention. Bumper stickers: Cat Food Sold Here! Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
I see from your Google avatar, you are a Pandorian. You know, D9 set up a great sequel; but, don't think it will happen. Not fair. Terry (munching on Prawns for Power) On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:41 PM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: Just take along cans of Fancy Feast. Hey it worked in District 9. And the Pandorians really are cats. An excellent film that unfortunately will be stampeded by Avatar. I can see it now. Coming to your local science fiction convention. Bumper stickers: Cat Food Sold Here! Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
Terry sez: I see from your Google avatar, you are a Pandorian. As are you. ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
All the planets like Earth and Jupiter became isolated from interstellar gas about 4.5 billion years ago, when the sun was born. Although the sun continued to burn deuterium since then, no such depletion should have occurred on Jupiter. In addition, Jupiter's enormous gravity prevents light gasses like hydrogen and deuterium from escaping. For these reasons, that planet's current abundance ratio should represent the relative amounts at the birth of the solar system, and it should be similar to what was here on Earth back then. In 1996 NASA and a European group reported that Jupiter has about 6 deuterium atoms for every 10,000 hydrogen atoms. This number agrees with the value measured by a specialized device, carried on the Galileo spacecraft, that plunged into Jupiter. This is strong evidence for the initial ratio being 600 ppm at the outset of solar system history. The natural abundance of D in the oceans of Earth of approximately one atom in 6,500 of hydrogen (~154 ppm) or four times lower than Jupiter. What happened to the rest of it, if it was initially the same as Jupiter? What we have that is basically different from Jupiter is a 20% surface zone that is largely rock and biomass, bathed in solar radiation - plus much lower gravity. If deuterium where to form into dense accumulations preferentially over hydrogen, such that some of it fuses into helium by QM probability, which is enhanced in confined containment (and thus deuterium is removed from water on average) then this dynamic would alter the ratio lower over eons. Given that our atmosphere is not held by gravity as tightly as Jupiter, that should mean that more H than D escapes, so that is a counter mechanism that indicates the fusion rate is even higher. All in all, this could indicate that quantum fusion of deuterium happens on a slow but massive planetary scale on Earth - and at a rate which is actually predictable, based on the comparative abundance here and on Jupiter, divided by the time lapse and other variables which will probably enter into the picture. Whether that adds any credence to LENR is debatable, even if accurate. There is also another possibility which is the ultra-dense deuterium of Holmlid - which presumably would form in the mantle from sedimentary matter and eventually migrate to the earth's core- and probably fuse along the way into helium . thus to provide some of the internal heat seen, which is often attributed to uranium. This also explains why some wells drilled for natural gas turn out to be high in helium content. Concentrations of helium in natural gas in New Mexico and Texas are as high as 7%. It is very doubtful that this could be primordial helium. Some could come from radioactive decay, but given the huge quantities, some could be from pycno-fusion. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Pycno-pockets?
At 04:06 PM 1/21/2010, Jones Beene wrote: The natural abundance of D in the oceans of Earth of approximately one atom in 6,500 of hydrogen (~154 ppm) or four times lower than Jupiter. What happened to the rest of it, if it was initially the same as Jupiter? Fascinating question based on an interesting discovery. I have a hypothesis to propose: biological transformation. Vyosotskii has published striking evidence that it happens, specifically with deuterium. As to how, proteins can manage some pretty sophisticated confinement tricks, putting stuff together and holding it together in amazing ways. If low energy nuclear reactions are possible, maybe those bacteria are smarter than we think. They had a lot of time to work it out, and a lot of experiments that they would run until something happened that was useful. It appears that the bacteria studied use the reaction to generate iron that they need for other reasons. The reaction would generate disruptive energy, but one of the bacteria studied was deinococcus radiodurans. The name says it. Radiation resistant. Amazingly radiation resistant. Why? What value would that confer large enough to make the trait dominate in a population? I can think of several answers. An ability to handle low energy fusion or transmutation would be one of them. What we have that is basically different from Jupiter is a 20% surface zone that is largely rock and biomass, bathed in solar radiation plus much lower gravity. If deuterium where to form into dense accumulations preferentially over hydrogen, such that some of it fuses into helium by QM probability, which is enhanced in confined containment (and thus deuterium is removed from water on average) then this dynamic would alter the ratio lower over eons. Given that our atmosphere is not held by gravity as tightly as Jupiter, that should mean that more H than D escapes, so that is a counter mechanism that indicates the fusion rate is even higher. All in all, this could indicate that quantum fusion of deuterium happens on a slow but massive planetary scale on Earth and at a rate which is actually predictable, based on the comparative abundance here and on Jupiter, divided by the time lapse and other variables which will probably enter into the picture. I find it a stretch, compared to the biological hypothesis. But maybe it would work. One would attempt to simulate conditions that might form to do this. Given how persnickety the reaction seems to be, that could be difficult. But remember, it only takes two deuterons at a time, or some transmutation reaction involving a deuteron and another nucleus, so that's all a bacterium has to line up and confine or channel. There is also another possibility which is the ultra-dense deuterium of Holmlid which presumably would form in the mantle from sedimentary matter and eventually migrate to the earths core- and probably fuse along the way into helium thus to provide some of the internal heat seen, which is often attributed to uranium. This also explains why some wells drilled for natural gas turn out to be high in helium content. Concentrations of helium in natural gas in New Mexico and Texas are as high as 7%. It is very doubtful that this could be primordial helium. Some could come from radioactive decay, but given the huge quantities, some could be from pycno-fusion. Jones Wasn't this more or less Steven Jones' idea (or an idea he picked up)? But source could just as well be biological; natural gas forming from decay of material that may have included fusion-enabled bacteria or other biological structures that could pull off the trick. That would also explain the coincidence of natural gas (or oil, if that's the case) and helium.
