Re: [Vo]:RUNNING COST FOR THE 1 MW E-Cat
Dr. Peter Gluck, Further to Your comment. The need for semi-continuous electrical heating of the many E-Cats in the I MW “Container-Cat” is, at the moment, the largest running cost in addition to the low-cost fuel (6 month running period) represented by the 10 kg modified nickel micro powder and the 18 kg of hydrogen gas and some small power for the frequency modulator. In the lowest heath generating modus (the 1 to 6 energy gain) the maximum el-power heating requirement is around 167 kWh which over 6 month running time represent 180 x 24 = 4320 hours. At 167 kWh this adds up to 721440 kWh. In Italy this amount of el-power for an industrial consumer will cost: 721440 kWh x Euro 0,1331 = 96023 Euro. Even though Mr. Andrea Rossi informed me that the 167 kWh for resistor heating was necessary to run the I MW E-Cat Container, today's major test in Bologna will show how this in real life is functioning. He might start groups of 6 E-Cats units at the time for each of the two 500 kW E-cat groups that makes up the I MW E-Cat Container. It is now, based on the 10 former E-Cat tests performed earlier, certain that Rossi's E-Cat technology generates excess heat from the “low nuclear energy reactions (LNER)” (a process that very well, in the near future, will show it self to be more of a Quantum / ZPE / Rydberg type process then a general “cold fusion” reaction). The sceptics that still state the the E-Cat do not generate excess heat are just not well enough informed or do not simply accept facts that does not fit with their “believe system”. To get the 1 MW “Container Cat” prototype to run commercially it is necessary to run it on a much higher energy ratio than a present 1 to 6 (due to that it is el-power in and just heat out). Earlier tests have indicated that much higher energy ratios are highly possible and have been shown, as has running in self contained mode without el-power heating of resistors for long periods of time been demonstrated. We should also not forget that there are a number of other developers / companies (in addition to Andrea Rossi / Leonardo Corp.) that are stating real results great energy generation possibilities with much similar energy generating processes. We will see from today's major 1 MW E-Cat test in Bologna what the present ratio between el-power in and heat out will be. For the calculation the following present el-power prices in Italy have bee used: End-user energy prices for industrial consumers. Italy € 0.1331 Ref: http://www.energy.eu/#Industrial-Elec Retail (end-user) energy prices for households. Italy € 0.2568 Ref: http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic-Elec Sincerely, Jorn-Erik Ommang, engineer New Energy Specialist to major oil, gas energy companies Enerley.com On 27/10/2011 20:56, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Can you please give some price limits for 167 kWh electric energy and 1000 kWh thermal energy, say carried by steam 115 deg Celsius? Thanks, Peter On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Jorn Erik Ommang j...@enerley.com wrote: RUNNING COST FOR THE 1MW E-Cat: A lot have been written the last 2 days (on E-Cat blogs web sites) about the running cost of the 1 MW E-Cat Power Plant that has only focused on the cost of the nickel hydrogen fuel used. One should not forget that the I MW E-Cat Power Plant will not run in self-sustained mode due to safety issues. There will be a general minimum 1 to 6 gain in energy from the plant. I.e. the 1 MW E-Cat Power Plant will require a maximum of 167 kWh to run during the 6 months. So in addition to the fuel cost of 10 kg modified Nickel micro powder and 18 kg hydrogen gas one need to add the cost of purchasing 167 kWh for each hour the plant is running during the 6 months. This el-power running cost is much larger than the cost of the Nickel / Hydrogen fuel used. Se today's recent Andrea Rossi answer to my questions re. running cost of the 1 MW E-Cat Power Plant: Jorn Erik Ommang October 26th, 2011 at 3:50 PM Dear Andrea Rossi, Congratulation from Norway, Spain UK! 1.0 Is it correct that Your 1 MW E-Cat Container will require a maximum of 167 kW in el-power to run and generate the 1 MW of heath (a minimum 1 to 6 energy gain) (1 to 6 energy gain = 167 kW el-power in and 1 MW heat out)? 2.0 Will the cost of this el-power (maximum 167 kWh for 6 months) come in addition to the cost for fuel (10 kg nickel 18 kg hydrogen pr. 6 months)? I have been working as consultant in New Energy (since 1994) for management of Oil and Energy Companies in Norway (including Europe’s largest renewable energy company) as well as work the Government. The Consultant work has included training top management in what will come in the clean new energy field and have followed Your great work for a long time. Have also long time experience as Project Manager in the Norwegian Oil Gas Industry and as technical auditor for Shell Statoil. 3.0 I am interested in
Re: [Vo]:RUNNING COST FOR THE 1 MW E-Cat
Thank you very much for your detailed and welll docunented answer. Let's waith the global results of the Demo for the most relevant calculation. In your experience and not on;y for Italy what are the price ratios electric energy/thermal energy? Peter On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Jorn Erik Ommang j...@enerley.com wrote: Dr. Peter Gluck, Further to Your comment. The need for semi-continuous electrical heating of the many E-Cats in the I MW “Container-Cat” is, at the moment, the largest running cost in addition to the low-cost fuel (6 month running period) represented by the 10 kg modified nickel micro powder and the 18 kg of hydrogen gas and some small power for the frequency modulator. In the lowest heath generating modus (the 1 to 6 energy gain) the maximum el-power heating requirement is around 167 kWh which over 6 month running time represent 180 x 24 = 4320 hours. At 167 kWh this adds up to 721440 kWh. In Italy this amount of el-power for an industrial consumer will cost: 721440 kWh x Euro 0,1331 = 96023 Euro. Even though Mr. Andrea Rossi informed me that the 167 kWh for resistor heating was necessary to run the I MW E-Cat Container, today's major test in Bologna will show how this in real life is functioning. He might start groups of 6 E-Cats units at the time for each of the two 500 kW E-cat groups that makes up the I MW E-Cat Container. It is now, based on the 10 former E-Cat tests performed earlier, certain that Rossi's E-Cat technology generates excess heat from the “low nuclear energy reactions (LNER)” (a process that very well, in the near future, will show it self to be more of a Quantum / ZPE / Rydberg type process then a general “cold fusion” reaction). The sceptics that still state the the E-Cat do not generate excess heat are just not well enough informed or do not simply accept facts that does not fit with their “believe system”. To get the 1 MW “Container Cat” prototype to run commercially it is necessary to run it on a much higher energy ratio than a present 1 to 6 (due to that it is el-power in and just heat out). Earlier tests have indicated that much higher energy ratios are highly possible and have been shown, as has running in self contained mode without el-power heating of resistors for long periods of time been demonstrated. We should also not forget that there are a number of other developers / companies (in addition to Andrea Rossi / Leonardo Corp.) that are stating real results great energy generation possibilities with much similar energy generating processes. We will see from today's major 1 MW E-Cat test in Bologna what the present ratio between el-power in and heat out will be. For the calculation the following present el-power prices in Italy have bee used: *End-user energy prices for industrial consumers.* Italy € 0.1331 Ref: http://www.energy.eu/#Industrial-Elec *Retail (end-user) energy prices for households. *Italy € 0.2568 Ref: http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic-Elec Sincerely, Jorn-Erik Ommang, engineer New Energy Specialist to major oil, gas energy companies Enerley.com On 27/10/2011 20:56, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Can you please give some price limits for 167 kWh electric energy and 1000 kWh thermal energy, say carried by steam 115 deg Celsius? Thanks, Peter On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Jorn Erik Ommang j...@enerley.com wrote: RUNNING COST FOR THE 1MW E-Cat: A lot have been written the last 2 days (on E-Cat blogs web sites) about the running cost of the 1 MW E-Cat Power Plant that has only focused on the cost of the nickel hydrogen fuel used. One should not forget that the I MW E-Cat Power Plant will not run in self-sustained mode due to safety issues. There will be a general minimum 1 to 6 gain in energy from the plant. I.e. the 1 MW E-Cat Power Plant will require a maximum of 167 kWh to run during the 6 months. So in addition to the fuel cost of 10 kg modified Nickel micro powder and 18 kg hydrogen gas one need to add the cost of purchasing 167 kWh for each hour the plant is running during the 6 months. This el-power running cost is much larger than the cost of the Nickel / Hydrogen fuel used. Se today's recent Andrea Rossi answer to my questions re. running cost of the 1 MW E-Cat Power Plant: Jorn Erik Ommang October 26th, 2011 at 3:50 PM Dear Andrea Rossi, Congratulation from Norway, Spain UK! 1.0 Is it correct that Your 1 MW E-Cat Container will require a maximum of 167 kW in el-power to run and generate the 1 MW of heath (a minimum 1 to 6 energy gain) (1 to 6 energy gain = 167 kW el-power in and 1 MW heat out)? 2.0 Will the cost of this el-power (maximum 167 kWh for 6 months) come in addition to the cost for fuel (10 kg nickel 18 kg hydrogen pr. 6 months)? I have been working as consultant in New Energy (since 1994) for management of Oil and Energy Companies in Norway (including Europe’s largest renewable
Re: [Vo]:RUNNING COST FOR THE 1 MW E-Cat
Everything you want is here: http://www.energy.eu/ On 28 October 2011 13:41, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you very much for your detailed and welll docunented answer. Let's waith the global results of the Demo for the most relevant calculation. In your experience and not on;y for Italy what are the price ratios electric energy/thermal energy? Peter
Re: [Vo]:RUNNING COST FOR THE 1 MW E-Cat
Thank you, Robert, very good site and I did't knew about it despite teaching Ecological Energetics to managers. It happens. Peter On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Everything you want is here: http://www.energy.eu/ On 28 October 2011 13:41, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you very much for your detailed and welll docunented answer. Let's waith the global results of the Demo for the most relevant calculation. In your experience and not on;y for Italy what are the price ratios electric energy/thermal energy? Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:RUNNING COST FOR THE 1 MW E-Cat
Dr. Peter Gluck, Further to Your question: The 1 MW “Container Energy Catalyser” (ContainerCat) Power Plant in its present form generate heath in the form of steam / hot water. As a thermal power plant it can be made to generate space water heating for factories and buildings. However, to put this revolutionary New Energy power plant into the present energy-marked perspective it is best to compare it with a CHP (combined heat power) plant when it (in the near future) is combined with a steam to el-power converting system in addition to delivering heat for usable heating purposes. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_heat_and_power On cost comparison it is best to compare the 1 MW E-Cat Power Plant to CHP generated by natural gas. The most economic future E-Cat 1 MW Container Power Plant will be a Cogeneration (combined heat and power, CHP) that simultaneously generate both electricity and useful heat. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_power Some of Your question can be answer as: The energy efficiency of a conventional thermal power station, considered as saleable energy as a percent of the heating value of the fuel consumed, is typically 33% to 48%. And, yes the EU site is a good source for most anything on energy statistics in EU, including real facts on the ridiculous low efficiency factor for the expensive highly subsidised Offshore Wind Farms now being constructed in the UK (Wind Farms is like energy living on social security, “they can not stay on their own one feet”. Sincerely, Jorn-Erik Ommang, engineer New Energy Specialist to major oil, gas energy companies Enerley.com On 28/10/2011 14:41, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you very much for your detailed and welll docunented answer. Let's waith the global results of the Demo for the most relevant calculation. In your experience and not on;y for Italy what are the price ratios electric energy/thermal energy? Peter On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Jorn Erik Ommang j...@enerley.com wrote: Dr. Peter Gluck, Further to Your comment. The need for semi-continuous electrical heating of the many E-Cats in the I MW “Container-Cat” is, at the moment, the largest running cost in addition to the low-cost fuel (6 month running period) represented by the 10 kg modified nickel micro powder and the 18 kg of hydrogen gas and some small power for the frequency modulator. In the lowest heath generating modus (the 1 to 6 energy gain) the maximum el-power heating requirement is around 167 kWh which over 6 month running time represent 180 x 24 = 4320 hours. At 167 kWh this adds up to 721440 kWh. In Italy this amount of el-power for an industrial consumer will cost: 721440 kWh x Euro 0,1331 = 96023 Euro. Even though Mr. Andrea Rossi informed me that the 167 kWh for resistor heating was necessary to run the I MW E-Cat Container, today's major test in Bologna will show how this in real life is functioning. He might start groups of 6 E-Cats units at the time for each of the two 500 kW E-cat groups that makes up the I MW E-Cat Container. It is now, based on the 10 former E-Cat tests performed earlier, certain that Rossi's E-Cat technology generates excess heat from the “low nuclear energy reactions (LNER)” (a process that very well, in the near future, will show it self to be more of a Quantum / ZPE / Rydberg type process then a general “cold fusion” reaction). The sceptics that still state the the E-Cat do not generate excess heat are just not well enough informed or do not simply accept facts that does not fit with their “believe system”. To get the 1 MW “Container Cat” prototype to run commercially it is necessary to run it on a much higher energy ratio than a present 1 to 6 (due to that it is el-power in and just heat out). Earlier tests have indicated that much higher energy ratios are highly possible and have been shown, as has running in self contained mode without el-power heating of resistors for long periods of time been demonstrated. We should also not forget that there are a number of other developers / companies (in addition to Andrea Rossi / Leonardo Corp.) that are stating real results great energy generation possibilities with much similar energy generating processes. We will see from today's major 1 MW E-Cat test in Bologna what the present ratio between el-power in and heat out will be. For the calculation the following present el-power prices in Italy have bee used: End-user energy prices for industrial consumers. Italy € 0.1331 Ref: http://www.energy.eu/#Industrial-Elec http://www.energy.eu/#Industrial-Elec Retail (end-user) energy prices for households. Italy € 0.2568 Ref: http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic-Elec http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic-Elec Sincerely, Jorn-Erik Ommang, engineer New Energy Specialist to major oil, gas energy companies Enerley.com On 27/10/2011 20:56, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:RUNNING COST FOR THE 1 MW E-Cat
Dear Jorn, Please accept my renewed thanks- I am waiting to see how mature is the 1MW demo. peter On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Jorn Erik Ommang j...@enerley.com wrote: Dr. Peter Gluck, Further to Your question: The 1 MW “Container Energy Catalyser” (ContainerCat) Power Plant in its present form generate heath in the form of steam / hot water. As a thermal power plant it can be made to generate space water heating for factories and buildings. However, to put this revolutionary New Energy power plant into the present energy-marked perspective it is best to compare it with a CHP (combined heat power) plant when it (in the near future) is combined with a steam to el-power converting system in addition to delivering heat for usable heating purposes. See: *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_heat_and_power * On cost comparison it is best to compare the 1 MW E-Cat Power Plant to CHP generated by natural gas. The most economic future E-Cat 1 MW Container Power Plant will be a *Cogeneration* (*combined heat and power*, *CHP*) that simultaneously generate both electricity and useful heat. See: *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_power * Some of Your question can be answer as: The energy efficiency of a conventional thermal power station, considered as saleable energy as a percent of the heating value of the fuel consumed, is typically 33% to 48%. And, yes the EU site is a good source for most anything on energy statistics in EU, including real facts on the ridiculous low efficiency factor for the expensive highly subsidised Offshore Wind Farms now being constructed in the UK (Wind Farms is like energy living on social security, “they can not stay on their own one feet”. Sincerely, Jorn-Erik Ommang, engineer New Energy Specialist to major oil, gas energy companies Enerley.com On 28/10/2011 14:41, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you very much for your detailed and welll docunented answer. Let's waith the global results of the Demo for the most relevant calculation. In your experience and not on;y for Italy what are the price ratios electric energy/thermal energy? Peter On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Jorn Erik Ommang j...@enerley.com wrote: Dr. Peter Gluck, Further to Your comment. The need for semi-continuous electrical heating of the many E-Cats in the I MW “Container-Cat” is, at the moment, the largest running cost in addition to the low-cost fuel (6 month running period) represented by the 10 kg modified nickel micro powder and the 18 kg of hydrogen gas and some small power for the frequency modulator. In the lowest heath generating modus (the 1 to 6 energy gain) the maximum el-power heating requirement is around 167 kWh which over 6 month running time represent 180 x 24 = 4320 hours. At 167 kWh this adds up to 721440 kWh. In Italy this amount of el-power for an industrial consumer will cost: 721440 kWh x Euro 0,1331 = 96023 Euro. Even though Mr. Andrea Rossi informed me that the 167 kWh for resistor heating was necessary to run the I MW E-Cat Container, today's major test in Bologna will show how this in real life is functioning. He might start groups of 6 E-Cats units at the time for each of the two 500 kW E-cat groups that makes up the I MW E-Cat Container. It is now, based on the 10 former E-Cat tests performed earlier, certain that Rossi's E-Cat technology generates excess heat from the “low nuclear energy reactions (LNER)” (a process that very well, in the near future, will show it self to be more of a Quantum / ZPE / Rydberg type process then a general “cold fusion” reaction). The sceptics that still state the the E-Cat do not generate excess heat are just not well enough informed or do not simply accept facts that does not fit with their “believe system”. To get the 1 MW “Container Cat” prototype to run commercially it is necessary to run it on a much higher energy ratio than a present 1 to 6 (due to that it is el-power in and just heat out). Earlier tests have indicated that much higher energy ratios are highly possible and have been shown, as has running in self contained mode without el-power heating of resistors for long periods of time been demonstrated. We should also not forget that there are a number of other developers / companies (in addition to Andrea Rossi / Leonardo Corp.) that are stating real results great energy generation possibilities with much similar energy generating processes. We will see from today's major 1 MW E-Cat test in Bologna what the present ratio between el-power in and heat out will be. For the calculation the following present el-power prices in Italy have bee used: *End-user energy prices for industrial consumers.* Italy € 0.1331 Ref: http://www.energy.eu/#Industrial-Elec http://www.energy.eu/#Industrial-Elec *Retail (end-user) energy prices for households. *Italy € 0.2568 Ref: http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic-Elec
