Re: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
I assume that any significant energy release must be due to true fusion since the potential energy of both states(H(1) or H(0)) are comparable. Is there some other source of energy release contemplated? Does it not seem strange that an effect as significant as this one remained hidden from physicists for so long? I remain skeptical since it appears to be too good to be true. And, the extreme density of this compressed hydrogen should have revealed itself. Dave -Original Message- From: Mark Jurich <jur...@hotmail.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 5, 2015 10:41 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium FYI: All, please take a close look at Fig. 2 of this Holmlid Paper: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/holm2.pdf I think it will help explain how Holmlid had viewed/grasped the energylevels back in early 2014. Also keep in mind that H(-1) is now calledH(0). It was thought that the apparent Ultra-dense state was InvertedRydberg Hydrogen (IRH, hence the “-1”), but now this state is seen as somewhatdifferent. The “0” reflects that the orbital angular momentum of the electronsis zero. The picture in Fig 1 may need some modification to take intoaccount the various apparent spin states of H(0). Winterberg’s earlierdescription has slightly fallen out of favor in regards to more recent data, butI am not sure what the latest findings suggest. Reading more of literatureshould help clear up the current understanding of H(0). Mark Jurich
Re: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
Fran, are you thinking that this is a form of zero point energy? Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X <francis.x.roa...@lmco.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Fri, Nov 6, 2015 7:21 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium I think confusion will continue to reign for as long as researchers continue to attribute the energy levels solely to the atom instead of in combination with the dynamic Casimir environment through which it is randomly moving. IMHO molecular bonds formed in these regions have a non spatial component proportional to the inverse of confined spacing ^3 and become spring loaded when the molecule moves to a different confinement level which discounts their disassociation threshold. Fran From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:44 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium It’s very difficult to keep the terminology consistent. I think Holmlid would be wise to ditch the present designations and start over. From: Mark Jurich FYI: All, please take a close look at Fig. 2 of this Holmlid Paper: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/holm2.pdf I think it will help explain how Holmlid had viewed/grasped the energy levels back in early 2014. Also keep in mind that H(-1) is now called H(0). It was thought that the apparent Ultra-dense state was Inverted Rydberg Hydrogen (IRH, hence the “-1”), but now this state is seen as somewhat different. The “0” reflects that the orbital angular momentum of the electrons is zero. The picture in Fig 1 may need some modification to take into account the various apparent spin states of H(0). Winterberg’s earlier description has slightly fallen out of favor in regards to more recent data, but I am not sure what the latest findings suggest. Reading more of literature should help clear up the current understanding of H(0). Mark Jurich
[Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
The Holmlid paper is a smoking gun for the mechanism of spin coupling in a coherent system that has been sought for some time. The paper suggests ultra-dense clusters—small vortex rod like clusters of molecular of P, D and T are possible. Holmlid calls this H(-1) which can exist in 3 spin separate spin states with the spin 2 state being most stable. Holmlid suggests that the dense state H(-1) can oscillate with the H(1) state (a Rydberg hydrogen state) not the same as normal molecular hydrogen, which is identified as H2. Holmlid identifies normal molecular hydrogen with a nuclear separation of 74 pm, compared to the Rydberg state H(1) with a nuclear separation of 150 pm and the ultra dense state H(-1) with a nuclear separation of 2.3 pm. Holmlid does not refer to normal molecular hydrogen as H(0) as best I can tell from reading his paper. I would think that normal molecular hydrogen could have more than one orbital spin state for its two electrons. Thus, a notation of H(0) would not be correct for some normal hydrogen. It would seem to be a small step to reach a more stable state than the H(-1), say He, with a transfer of energy to the rest of the coherent system via the phase transitions and their respective spin energy states. Holmlid even goes so far to suggest that spin may not be conserved in rapid transitions. (I doubt that conjecture.) In the case of ultra dense p molecules, D may form before the He finds itself possible. Bob Cook From: Jones Beene Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 8:43 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium It’s very difficult to keep the terminology consistent. I think Holmlid would be wise to ditch the present designations and start over. From: Mark Juric FYI: All, please take a close look at Fig. 2 of this Holmlid Paper: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/holm2.pdf I think it will help explain how Holmlid had viewed/grasped the energy levels back in early 2014. Also keep in mind that H(-1) is now called H(0). It was thought that the apparent Ultra-dense state was Inverted Rydberg Hydrogen (IRH, hence the “-1”), but now this state is seen as somewhat different. The “0” reflects that the orbital angular momentum of the electrons is zero. The picture in Fig 1 may need some modification to take into account the various apparent spin states of H(0). Winterberg’s earlier description has slightly fallen out of favor in regards to more recent data, but I am not sure what the latest findings suggest. Reading more of literature should help clear up the current understanding of H(0). Mark Jurich
[Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
I wrote: please take a close look at Fig. 2 of this Holmlid Paper: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/holm2.pdf [along with other stuff including an explanation of the figure] to which Dave replied: I assume that any significant energy release must be due to true fusion since the potential energy of both states(H(1) or H(0)) are comparable. Is there some other source of energy release contemplated? Does it not seem strange that an effect as significant as this one remained hidden from physicists for so long? I remain skeptical since it appears to be too good to be true. And, the extreme density of this compressed hydrogen should have revealed itself. Dave, these are very good questions. What do you mean by “true fusion”? I assume you mean hot fusion but I may be wrong. Even that term means different things to different people. In this particular case, I would say that it is unconventional hot fusion, since particles such as muons/mesons are apparently seen coming from the material (which is yet another (related) topic to debate in itself). With respect to some other source of energy release ... Sure, perhaps with the “right” ingredients, LENR (i.e., non-hot fusion) may occur, if that’s what you are addressing here. Yes, it’s very strange that an apparent effect as significant as this seems to be “hidden” and I’m not aware (at this time) of any good arguments opposing it, other than the usual things like, “this isn’t a real scientist” and “if it isn’t published in PRL, it’s not worth looking into”. Are you aware of any data/experiments that refute this? I’d love to see/hear them... I believe I am as skeptical as you are. I am open to trying to understand what is happening, as I am sure you are... It is my understanding that milligrams of this “stuff” may be possible to create. Perhaps shining a variable frequency probe laser or X-Rays into it may reveal something, I don’t know. Do you have an ideas how we can possibly prove that it’s happening, density-wise? Please take a look at what looks like Leif’s reply to something along the lines of your questions, recently (search in the comments for “Leif Holmlid”): http://hackaday.com/2015/10/05/deuterium-powered-homes-and-the-return-of-cold-fusion-hype/ Let us know what you think! - Mark
[Vo]: Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
Bob Cook wrote: Holmlid does not refer to normal molecular hydrogen as H(0) as best I can tell from reading his paper. I would think that normal molecular hydrogen could have more than one orbital spin state for its two electrons. Thus, a notation of H(0) would not be correct for some normal hydrogen. Please take a look (for example) at: Nuclear particle decay in a multi-MeV beam ejected by pulsed-laser impact on ultra-dense hydrogen H(0) Leif Holmlid International Journal of Modern Physics E, 24:11 (2015) 1550080 (18 pages) >From the paper: “Two different forms of ultra-dense hydrogen H(0) exist, namely ultra-dense protium p(0)1 and ultra-dense deuterium D(0).2,3 The names of these materials have recently been changed from p(−1) and D(−1) to indicate that the orbital angular momentum of the electrons is zero.3” Mark Jurich
RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
zero point energy is what keeps helium from freezing at 0 K, It also causes gas atom to have random motion but we are told this energy would require the fictional “Maxwellian Demon” to rectify . Prof Moddel wrote a very plain language paper how this can occur “a Demon. A Law, and the quest for virtually free Energy”<http://ecee.colorado.edu/~moddel/QEL/Papers/VacEnergyExtrac_Jan10.pdf> when DCE [dynamic Casimir Effect] meets ZPE, Random motion of gas is the baseline for vacuum engineering that occurs everywhere the same for every inertial frame. Vacuum engineering was coined by Hal Puthoff to describe things like Casimir effect where vacuum density can be caused to vary without the need for relativistic velocities. People like Lyne and Mohler claimed anomalous heat with a theory related to the atomic vs molecular state of hydrogen inside their reactor tubes. IMHO they were on to something but stopped far short.. their devices may have produced some thermal anomaly but we are only recently approaching the next level where this underlying bootstrap energy can fuel the types of reaction Jones and Axil are discussing.. I think the fact that these anomalies only occur inside the catalyst or nano powders [inverse catalyst] makes a strong case for the catalyst being the rectifier causing hydrogen atoms to change inertial state by changing vacuum density when the normally unrectifiable random motion of gas causes the gas atoms to move to a different size of confined geometry – unlike cancellation of spatial vectors in 3d, the tapestry inside Casimir geometry doesn’t require a specific direction, any motion that causes atoms to move into a less or more confinement qualifies as dynamic Casimir effect. IMHO molecular bonds try to prevent the individual atoms from contraction and thereby discount the energy needed to disassociate…if the molecules are already at a an ambient near the threshold temperature this reversible reaction could provide anomalous heat [OU] and either be the power source or more likely bootstrap power for any of the multiple theories being discussed in this forum. I guess my point is that ultimately the energy has to be derived from the geometry working on something and if that something is vacuum density then yes I think it is fair to call the source as being derived from ZPE. Fran From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 10:20 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium Fran, are you thinking that this is a form of zero point energy? Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X <francis.x.roa...@lmco.com<mailto:francis.x.roa...@lmco.com>> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>> Sent: Fri, Nov 6, 2015 7:21 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium I think confusion will continue to reign for as long as researchers continue to attribute the energy levels solely to the atom instead of in combination with the dynamic Casimir environment through which it is randomly moving. IMHO molecular bonds formed in these regions have a non spatial component proportional to the inverse of confined spacing ^3 and become spring loaded when the molecule moves to a different confinement level which discounts their disassociation threshold. Fran From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net<mailto:jone...@pacbell.net?>] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:44 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium It’s very difficult to keep the terminology consistent. I think Holmlid would be wise to ditch the present designations and start over. From: Mark Jurich FYI: All, please take a close look at Fig. 2 of this Holmlid Paper: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/holm2.pdf I think it will help explain how Holmlid had viewed/grasped the energy levels back in early 2014. Also keep in mind that H(-1) is now called H(0). It was thought that the apparent Ultra-dense state was Inverted Rydberg Hydrogen (IRH, hence the “-1”), but now this state is seen as somewhat different. The “0” reflects that the orbital angular momentum of the electrons is zero. The picture in Fig 1 may need some modification to take into account the various apparent spin states of H(0). Winterberg’s earlier description has slightly fallen out of favor in regards to more recent data, but I am not sure what the latest findings suggest. Reading more of literature should help clear up the current understanding of H(0). Mark Jurich
RE: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
I think confusion will continue to reign for as long as researchers continue to attribute the energy levels solely to the atom instead of in combination with the dynamic Casimir environment through which it is randomly moving. IMHO molecular bonds formed in these regions have a non spatial component proportional to the inverse of confined spacing ^3 and become spring loaded when the molecule moves to a different confinement level which discounts their disassociation threshold. Fran From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:44 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium It’s very difficult to keep the terminology consistent. I think Holmlid would be wise to ditch the present designations and start over. From: Mark Jurich FYI: All, please take a close look at Fig. 2 of this Holmlid Paper: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/holm2.pdf I think it will help explain how Holmlid had viewed/grasped the energy levels back in early 2014. Also keep in mind that H(-1) is now called H(0). It was thought that the apparent Ultra-dense state was Inverted Rydberg Hydrogen (IRH, hence the “-1”), but now this state is seen as somewhat different. The “0” reflects that the orbital angular momentum of the electrons is zero. The picture in Fig 1 may need some modification to take into account the various apparent spin states of H(0). Winterberg’s earlier description has slightly fallen out of favor in regards to more recent data, but I am not sure what the latest findings suggest. Reading more of literature should help clear up the current understanding of H(0). Mark Jurich
RE: [Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
It’s very difficult to keep the terminology consistent. I think Holmlid would be wise to ditch the present designations and start over. From: Mark Jurich FYI: All, please take a close look at Fig. 2 of this Holmlid Paper: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/holm2.pdf I think it will help explain how Holmlid had viewed/grasped the energy levels back in early 2014. Also keep in mind that H(-1) is now called H(0). It was thought that the apparent Ultra-dense state was Inverted Rydberg Hydrogen (IRH, hence the “-1”), but now this state is seen as somewhat different. The “0” reflects that the orbital angular momentum of the electrons is zero. The picture in Fig 1 may need some modification to take into account the various apparent spin states of H(0). Winterberg’s earlier description has slightly fallen out of favor in regards to more recent data, but I am not sure what the latest findings suggest. Reading more of literature should help clear up the current understanding of H(0). Mark Jurich
[Vo]:Re: Evidence for ultra-dense deuterium
FYI: All, please take a close look at Fig. 2 of this Holmlid Paper: http://fuelrfuture.com/science/holm2.pdf I think it will help explain how Holmlid had viewed/grasped the energy levels back in early 2014. Also keep in mind that H(-1) is now called H(0). It was thought that the apparent Ultra-dense state was Inverted Rydberg Hydrogen (IRH, hence the “-1”), but now this state is seen as somewhat different. The “0” reflects that the orbital angular momentum of the electrons is zero. The picture in Fig 1 may need some modification to take into account the various apparent spin states of H(0). Winterberg’s earlier description has slightly fallen out of favor in regards to more recent data, but I am not sure what the latest findings suggest. Reading more of literature should help clear up the current understanding of H(0). Mark Jurich
