Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
2010/1/25 Harry Veeder hlvee...@yahoo.com: If orbo were extracting heat from the air then part of the orbo would become hotter than the surrounding air, but for that to happen wouldn't part of the orbo have to be cooler than the surrounding air? I guess so, isn't it the case? Michel
Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
I suggested it could be a heat pump about a week ago, after someone (you, I think) said that the orbo generated more heat than its electrical energy consumption. If it's a high COP (2) heat pump it can be quite useful for heating purposes, although totally useless for electrical power generation as we discussed a few years back (loop closed? thread). It being a heat pump would imply that the surrounding air gets cooler of course. It would also imply that if the device with its surrounding air is enclosed in a calorimeter it will not be found to be overunity! Michel 2010/1/24 Harry Veeder hlvee...@yahoo.com: Orbo discussed as a heat pump: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=62574page=1#Item_0 Harry __ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/
Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
On 01/24/2010 05:15 AM, Michel Jullian wrote: I suggested it could be a heat pump about a week ago, after someone (you, I think) said that the orbo generated more heat than its electrical energy consumption. If it's a high COP (2) heat pump it can be quite useful for heating purposes, although totally useless for electrical power generation as we discussed a few years back (loop closed? thread). It being a heat pump would imply that the surrounding air gets cooler of course. Not 'of course'. No mechanism has been proposed, nor can I imagine one, for making the surrounding air get cooler as a result of running an Orbo. There is no point in its cycle where it steals energy from the surrounding air. The claim from Sean is that it violates COE, *not* that it violates the second law. It's (supposedly) a PPM of the first kind. It would also imply that if the device with its surrounding air is enclosed in a calorimeter it will not be found to be overunity! Michel 2010/1/24 Harry Veeder hlvee...@yahoo.com: Orbo discussed as a heat pump: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=62574page=1#Item_0 Harry __ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/
RE: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
-Original Message- From: Stephen A. Lawrence Not 'of course'. No mechanism has been proposed, nor can I imagine one, for making the surrounding air get cooler as a result of running an Orbo Michel is probably referring to some kind of Magnetocaloric effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetocaloric_effect
Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
Didn't even know this existed, thanks Jones for making me look more learned than I am! No, I was just saying that IF it is a heat pump, THEN of course the surrounding air should get cooler, I had no mechanism in mind, I don't even know what the Orbo is made of. Your magnetocaloric effect could be the explanation for what I know. Michel 2010/1/24 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net: -Original Message- From: Stephen A. Lawrence Not 'of course'. No mechanism has been proposed, nor can I imagine one, for making the surrounding air get cooler as a result of running an Orbo Michel is probably referring to some kind of Magnetocaloric effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetocaloric_effect
Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
My extreme idea was once that electrons rotate in two different 3-spaces and exchange negative energy and positive energy between the two. The work performed by the electron spin lowers the entropy in our 3 space and raises it in the negative free space. Maybe we should substitute 'imaginary' as in -1^1/2 for 'negative'. Maybe not.
Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
On 01/24/2010 12:19 PM, Jones Beene wrote: -Original Message- From: Stephen A. Lawrence Not 'of course'. No mechanism has been proposed, nor can I imagine one, for making the surrounding air get cooler as a result of running an Orbo Michel is probably referring to some kind of Magnetocaloric effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetocaloric_effect What's magical about the Orbo which would cause this to cool the surrounding air, when the same thing doesn't happen in any other coil which has been studied? As far as I can see from the Wiki page (or common sense), air doesn't get cooled by this mechanism. Quote: The magnetocaloric effect is an intrinsic property of a magnetic solid. Air is, of course, neither magnetic nor solid. If this were at work, you'd need to propose that something else, which was made of a suitable material -- maybe the cores -- was getting cold as a result. But that doesn't happen; the cores get warm, not cold. Sean attributes warming of the coils and cores to Joule heating, not pumping heat from the air. As I said, there's been no proposed mechanism which could cool the air around an Orbo -- and, please note, do it only for Orbos, not for normal electric motors.
RE: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
-Original Message- From: Stephen A. Lawrence What's magical about the Orbo which would cause this to cool the surrounding air ... That question might assume that they are honest, which is far from certain. As for the claim of OU heating from an electric motor - which has been around for years - google Szabo EBM. Here is a video which makes a clearer claim for OU than anything coming from Steorn, yet AFIK they have not been successful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6MDHF39XmU A standard heat pump gives a much better conversion of electricity into heat. Jones
Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
On 01/24/2010 02:10 PM, Jones Beene wrote: -Original Message- From: Stephen A. Lawrence What's magical about the Orbo which would cause this to cool the surrounding air ... That question might assume that they are honest, which is far from certain. That was not my assumption. Rather, I assumed you (or Michel) had something in mind when you proposed that the Orbo might be cooling the air via a magnetocaloric effect. The question was, if you think that, what do you think it might be? As far as I can see there is nothing in Orbo which relates to magnetocaloric cooling and no mechanism at all by which it could be cooling the air. Yet you proposed nagnetocaloric cooling as relating to Orbo. Hence, the question. As for the claim of OU heating from an electric motor - which has been around for years - google Szabo EBM. Here is a video which makes a clearer claim for OU than anything coming from Steorn, yet AFIK they have not been successful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6MDHF39XmU A standard heat pump gives a much better conversion of electricity into heat. Jones
RE: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
At 02:10 PM 1/24/2010, Jones Beene wrote: As for the claim of OU heating from an electric motor - which has been around for years - google Szabo EBM. Here is a video which makes a clearer claim for OU than anything coming from Steorn, yet AFIK they have not been successful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6MDHF39XmU Holy moly!!! This claims that once the rotation is set up, the thing generates power continuously, with no more input power. It's just as impossible as Orbo, but the claims are far more striking. The claims and models make Steorn look like a toy manufacturer, there is explicit claim of calorimetry, self-powered operation and output, etc. 15 ton generator, the EBM 720. But when was the film or video made? It seems old, maybe about 2000. This was a very ambitious and apparently well-funded effort. From http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Energy_By_Motion_%28EBM%29 Oct. 13, 2006 update -- NOT SELF-RUNNING YET: The company's present prototypes measure a small degree over unity, according to the measurement instruments and methods used. However, the extent of output exceeding input is not enough in the present prototypes to then cycle back to keep the unit running, as a self-runner. Any language expressing the self-running capability is extrapolative to a larger size, not yet built or proven, which allegedly has the necessary combination to keep the unit running and provide extra energy for use. (Source: Prof. Szabo, by phone to http://peswiki.com/index.php/Congress:Member:Sterling_D._AllanSterling D. Allan.) Ooops! Small degree of over unity. How small? http://www.gammamanager.com/blog.html last entry 2007. So, they have this 15 ton device shown in film from roughly 2000. In 2006, the claims of self-running are based on extrapolation. So, the $1.5 million dollar question (that's the price of the smallest commercial unit which they claim they can build to order, they just need a year and a half) is, what happens if they don't draw off energy for use, but just let the thing run self-powered? Is rotational velocity stable? Or how does it respond to small draws of energy? What is the evidence for over-unity? So many questions, and so may years in which to have answered them I certainly got the idea from the 2000 film that this was ready to go! What that says to me is that they are prepared to hype what they have. It just makes Steorn look pitiful by comparison.
Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump?
- Original Message From: Michel Jullian michelj...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, January 24, 2010 5:15:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:orbo is a heat pump? I suggested it could be a heat pump about a week ago, after someone (you, I think) yes said that the orbo generated more heat than its electrical energy consumption. If it's a high COP (2) heat pump it can be quite useful for heating purposes, although totally useless for electrical power generation as we discussed a few years back (loop closed? thread). It being a heat pump would imply that the surrounding air gets cooler of course. It would also imply that if the device with its surrounding air is enclosed in a calorimeter it will not be found to be overunity! Michel If orbo were extracting heat from the air then part of the orbo would become hotter than the surrounding air, but for that to happen wouldn't part of the orbo have to be cooler than the surrounding air? It would be analogous to running a household refrigerator with the door left wide open. Harry 2010/1/24 Harry Veeder : Orbo discussed as a heat pump: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=62574page=1#Item_0 Harry __ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ __ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca
