Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 1:35 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: JC, you used the specific wording, “…the evidence has not improved at all.” OK, that is obviously not a statement of scientific fact, but I thought it would be clear that it represents a judgement of the evidence, and probably reflects some exasperation. Detailed qualifications of this sort of thing take much longer. I agree, it is probably not an effective way to make the case against cold fusion. I do know that there have been improvements in the calorimetry, and there have been many different types of experiments introduced. But to me, these improvements and variations have not produced a more convincing demonstration. The expected and claimed observables in cold fusion are not some subtle thing. Heat, radiation, transmutations are all dead easy to measure at ridiculously low levels. If the claims right back to 1989 had merit, some kind of unequivocal demonstration should be easy. All the claims of heat after death suggest some sort of isolated beaker that stays hot or boils without anything connected to it should be possible. But the demos do not get better, and that includes the demos of Rossi. So, to me all these improvements in calorimetry or whatever, and variations in the type of experiment, and no better demonstration represents even weaker evidence for a real phenomenon. Whereas in 1989, I suspended disbelief, along with a lot of others, and became excited about the possibility of clean energy, to me the likelihood of a real effect is becoming ever smaller. ** NASA has confirmed the excess heat to their satisfaction… I know NASA is interested in cold fusion, but I was not aware of any report of their own experimental results. Can you give the reference for this? **2) **Knowledge about what criteria must be met to get successful results has definitely come out of the research. Claims that the criteria are worked out go back to the early 90s (McKubre e.g.). **3) **Due to #2, repeatability has most definitely improved since FP’s work; some labs have reported better than 80% repeatability. The problem is that repeatability in this field is not the same as repeatability in other fields. In most of science, it means getting the same or consistent results within margins of error in any laboratory. In cold fusion, it just means getting the same sign of the result with the same apparatus. McKubre has said that no one has achieved quantitative reproducibility in cold fusion, and no one has achieved interlab reproducibility without the exchange of personnel. Consider Energetics. They claim more than 70% reproducibility, and they also claim a COP of 25 and power of 20 W, and they claim a watt or so without input for several days. The latter would be particularly easy to demonstrate unequivocally by just putting the activated foil in an isolated thermos and watching the temperature. And yet, when they were featured on 60 minutes, the best they could demonstrate was someone doing calculations in a notebook. And in spite of their claim of 70% reproducibility, they have not reproduced their 2004 results.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Do not listen to any advice from skeptics. Yikes! Yes, by all means -- also be sure to ignore all the history of spectacular multi million dollar scams that resulted from involving only believers.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Do not listen to any advice from skeptics. Yikes! Yes, by all means -- also be sure to ignore all the history of spectacular multi million dollar scams that resulted from involving only believers. I meant technical advice, such as you must do a blank when testing industrial-scale equipment. Regarding scams and the like, Yugo has raised an important issue. Let me add to the list of things you SHOULD DO: Hire a good lawyer to review the sales contract. There may be other business-related issues to consider. That is somewhat beyond the scope of the discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: I meant technical advice, such as you must do a blank when testing industrial-scale equipment. Yes. Don't run a blank. Don't check the measurement method. Just trust Rossi's word that his heat exchanger evaluates the enthalpy properly. Take it on faith. And whatever you do, don't ask to see what's inside the device down to the core. And don't worry about running more than a day. In fact four or five hours should do just fine to test a device that is claimed to go six months without attention and a year without refueling.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
I appreciate your advise and one thing an old engineer learns is to never reinvent the wheel. I have learned to leverage other peoples experience and knowledge. If I get to the first test of a single E-Cat module and Rossi doesn't throw a hissy fit, you are invited but your costs are yours. Never thought you would ask ;) 130 kWs from that Door Knob reactor still make me nervous as I wonder what happens during a melt down? I do remember the hole in the roof PF experienced and that was a pissy weak reactor compared to what Rossi has developed. Ok sure it stops when it melts, we hope, but what happens before it stops? If 130 kWs was somewhat controlled, can these reactors each generated 5 -10 times as much heat or more? Maybe bring a bomb disposal suit? AG On 11/21/2011 3:48 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: E-cat guy reports that he may be able to purchase an e-cat, and he asked for advice about how to test it. I feel strongly about this, because I have spent months in on-again, off-again negotiations to perform a test. Since I am a veteran of failed attempts I feel I have special knowledge of how not to do this, so I have started a new thread to draw attention to my urgent suggestions. Let me first say that if you need more money I may be able to help. Now, let's go over what you SHOULD do and what you SHOULD NOT do: SHOULD DO If you have enough money to buy one of these things, you have enough to do the tests right. Find someone who speaks Italian, and have them find a top-notch local engineering firm that specializes in testing and certifying boilers. (I call everyone in that business HVAC but boiler testing may be a separate category in Italy. I wouldn't know about that.) Let this company handle everything. They have the instruments. They know the local regulations. They have done this thousands of times before. Do not hire a company that has not done it thousands of times. The only thing unusual about this job is that you need some radiation detectors for safety. They are cheap. You stay out of their way, but I recommend you do some simple reality check tests of your own, with handheld instruments, a stopwatch, and a weight scale. ahem Invite me! SHOULD NOT Do not let any large corporations or government agencies get involved. Do not let scientists get involved. No chemists, and especially no physicists. They do not have the right skill set, to put it diplomatically. Do not make your own instruments. The engineering firm should use industry standard techniques only, with the European version of NIST certified industrial grade instruments. If they suggest you need a special, made-to-order testbed or a custom set of instruments, you are talking to the wrong firm. They should have everything they need sitting in the van. This should be a routine job for them. Do not use high precision scientific laboratory instruments. Too much precision is as bad as too little. Do not invite any experts in laboratory calorimetry. I repeat, no physicists. If one of them shows up at your door with high tech, high precision instruments and offers his services for free, the answer is no, go away, vamoose, うせろ (make yourself scarce -- http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E3%81%86%E3%81%9B%E3%82%8D). Do not listen to any advice from skeptics. Ignore the peanut gallery, including me, except for practical, been-there-done-that advice such as this message. Notice that I am not offering any specific technical advice here about instruments, although of course I could do that. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Since you are going there during winter, as Rossi to install an ecat for an open field camping, in front of his assembling factory, and stay there for 1 week, with heating. 2011/11/20 Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com I appreciate your advise and one thing an old engineer learns is to never reinvent the wheel. I have learned to leverage other peoples experience and knowledge. If I get to the first test of a single E-Cat module and Rossi doesn't throw a hissy fit, you are invited but your costs are yours. Never thought you would ask ;) 130 kWs from that Door Knob reactor still make me nervous as I wonder what happens during a melt down? I do remember the hole in the roof PF experienced and that was a pissy weak reactor compared to what Rossi has developed. Ok sure it stops when it melts, we hope, but what happens before it stops? If 130 kWs was somewhat controlled, can these reactors each generated 5 -10 times as much heat or more? Maybe bring a bomb disposal suit? AG On 11/21/2011 3:48 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: E-cat guy reports that he may be able to purchase an e-cat, and he asked for advice about how to test it. I feel strongly about this, because I have spent months in on-again, off-again negotiations to perform a test. Since I am a veteran of failed attempts I feel I have special knowledge of how not to do this, so I have started a new thread to draw attention to my urgent suggestions. Let me first say that if you need more money I may be able to help. Now, let's go over what you SHOULD do and what you SHOULD NOT do: SHOULD DO If you have enough money to buy one of these things, you have enough to do the tests right. Find someone who speaks Italian, and have them find a top-notch local engineering firm that specializes in testing and certifying boilers. (I call everyone in that business HVAC but boiler testing may be a separate category in Italy. I wouldn't know about that.) Let this company handle everything. They have the instruments. They know the local regulations. They have done this thousands of times before. Do not hire a company that has not done it thousands of times. The only thing unusual about this job is that you need some radiation detectors for safety. They are cheap. You stay out of their way, but I recommend you do some simple reality check tests of your own, with handheld instruments, a stopwatch, and a weight scale. ahem Invite me! SHOULD NOT Do not let any large corporations or government agencies get involved. Do not let scientists get involved. No chemists, and especially no physicists. They do not have the right skill set, to put it diplomatically. Do not make your own instruments. The engineering firm should use industry standard techniques only, with the European version of NIST certified industrial grade instruments. If they suggest you need a special, made-to-order testbed or a custom set of instruments, you are talking to the wrong firm. They should have everything they need sitting in the van. This should be a routine job for them. Do not use high precision scientific laboratory instruments. Too much precision is as bad as too little. Do not invite any experts in laboratory calorimetry. I repeat, no physicists. If one of them shows up at your door with high tech, high precision instruments and offers his services for free, the answer is no, go away, vamoose, うせろ (make yourself scarce -- http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E3%81%**86%E3%81%9B%E3%82%8Dhttp://eow.alc.co.jp/%E3%81%86%E3%81%9B%E3%82%8D ). Do not listen to any advice from skeptics. Ignore the peanut gallery, including me, except for practical, been-there-done-that advice such as this message. Notice that I am not offering any specific technical advice here about instruments, although of course I could do that. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Don't run a blank. Don't check the measurement method. Just trust Rossi's word that his heat exchanger evaluates the enthalpy properly. Take it on faith. That's not what I said, is it? You have a remarkable talent for distortion, red herrings, and putting words in people's mouth. Let me repeat what I said: Let this company [the HVAC consulting engineers] handle everything. They have the instruments. They know the local regulations. They have done this thousands of times before. That's the HVAC company, not Rossi. He stays out of the picture, obviously. It would be the same arrangement as the Oct. 28 test reportedly was, where independent experts (Fioravanti and his group), bring all the instruments, set everything up, and they do all the testing. And before you say it, no I do not mean you hire Fioravanti himself. I don't even know where he is -- I wish I did. I mean you hire some local Italian consulting engineers, from the telephone book. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
As the purchaser, he who has the Gold, (always remember the Golden Rule, He who has the Gold makes the Rules) we will issue the purchase order, with our acceptance test, performance, delivery, warranty / guarantee and other conditions such as any disputes will be heard in an Australian court. Been there, Done this before. AG On 11/21/2011 4:04 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Do not listen to any advice from skeptics. Yikes! Yes, by all means -- also be sure to ignore all the history of spectacular multi million dollar scams that resulted from involving only believers. I meant technical advice, such as you must do a blank when testing industrial-scale equipment. Regarding scams and the like, Yugo has raised an important issue. Let me add to the list of things you SHOULD DO: Hire a good lawyer to review the sales contract. There may be other business-related issues to consider. That is somewhat beyond the scope of the discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: I do remember the hole in the roof PF experienced and that was a pissy weak reactor compared to what Rossi has developed. The table and the floor, not the roof. I asked Martin what the hell happened to the materials from the table and the floor. Did they save samples of them? He said no, they didn't. Any photos? No, they didn't bother taking any. It reminds me of the time when Mizuno scraped off black material from a cathode that probably transmuted, and tossed it into the trash. He later said that was like throwing away diamonds and gold. It is as if the Wright brothers had gone ahead and burned up the first airplane in a bonfire, on Dec. 17, 1903, because they were cold. They almost did, as I mentioned. These people do a lousy job of preserving data and physical evidence. Rossi is constantly pulling apart his old reactors and reusing the equipment. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: As the purchaser, he who has the Gold, (always remember the Golden Rule, He who has the Gold makes the Rules) Amen. we will issue the purchase order, with our acceptance test, performance, delivery, warranty / guarantee and other conditions such as any disputes will be heard in an Australian court. Been there, Done this before. Excellent! However exotic the machine may be, a contract is a contract, and an experienced businessman knows how to make one airtight. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: That's not what I said, is it? You have a remarkable talent for distortion, red herrings, and putting words in people's mouth. Let me repeat what I said: Please let me repeat what you said: I meant technical advice, such as you must do a blank when testing industrial-scale equipment.. Uhhun. So you didn't say not to run a blank/calibration run (you know what I mean when I shorthand that to blank)? And why in the world would you trust people who install large industrial devices? In my experience they have a lot of practical knowledge on how to do their jobs according to instructions and protocols but not the formal education to understand the reasons. Rossi's device isn't an ordinary boiler for goodness' sake! It's a flippin' NUCLEAR FUSION REACTOR with claims of awesome power capabilities. I wouldn't let an HVAC engineer near it.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
24 hours of COP 6 powered mode operation from a single E-Cat reactor, driving steam into a heat exchanger with 1 second data logging is fine by me. One engineer in Nasa may not agree but that is his opinion and not mine. I'm more concerned about shutting down a runaway reactor as Murphy and I are long time mates. Well he sure seems to think his is my mate. Maybe he thinks PI$$ off Murphy in Oz means come and help me F**K it up mate. AG On 11/21/2011 4:18 AM, Daniel Rocha wrote: Since you are going there during winter, as Rossi to install an ecat for an open field camping, in front of his assembling factory, and stay there for 1 week, with heating.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On 11/21/2011 4:32 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: I asked Martin what the hell happened to the materials from the table and the floor. Did they save samples of them? He said no, they didn't. Any photos? No, they didn't bother taking any. It reminds me of the time when Mizuno scraped off black material from a cathode that probably transmuted, and tossed it into the trash. He later said that was like throwing away diamonds and gold. Sounds like there were good inventors more than scientists. Just clean up the mess and get back to work and try not to do that again. It is as if the Wright brothers had gone ahead and burned up the first airplane in a bonfire, on Dec. 17, 1903, because they were cold. They almost did, as I mentioned. These people do a lousy job of preserving data and physical evidence. Rossi is constantly pulling apart his old reactors and reusing the equipment. Hey I do that all the time. Hate to waste good hardware. Never leave much of a history behind. You log every mod to every line of code you ever wrote? Me neither. Comes with the trade. You only have limited hours and documenting what you just did is the furthest thing from your goal. I would never make a good experimental scientists as I not methodical enough. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: So you didn't say not to run a blank/calibration run (you know what I mean when I shorthand that to blank)? I repeat for the last time: Let this company handle everything. They have the instruments. They know the local regulations. They have done this thousands of times before. . . . You stay out of their way. . . . If they want to calibrate or do a blank, that is their decision. Of course you need to have confidence in their judgement and experience. You need to discuss the plans with them. The engineering firm has to have experience dealing with boilers of this size. AG appears to be experienced engineer himself, so he should have no difficulty judging that. And why in the world would you trust people who install large industrial devices? Because they install large industrial devices. If they did not know how to do that right, they would kill themselves and blow up large buildings. In my experience they have a lot of practical knowledge on how to do their jobs according to instructions and protocols but not the formal education to understand the reasons. Well, your experience is not mine. You seem to have a low opinion of engineers. The kind of firms I have in mind are qualified to write the instructions and protocols. Rossi's device isn't an ordinary boiler for goodness' sake! It's a flippin' NUCLEAR FUSION REACTOR with claims of awesome power capabilities. I wouldn't let an HVAC engineer near it. This kind of statement illustrates why I say a person should not listen to skeptics. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: I repeat for the last time: Let this company handle everything. They have the instruments. They know the local regulations. They have done this thousands of times before. . . . They've tested newly invented nuclear fusion reactors thousands of times before? What firm is that? Ah, never mind. IMO, the real intrigue here is whether or not Mr. Aussie will even get close to testing an E-cat device. I suggest you may want to share your experience trying to get Rossi to agree to a reasonable test protocol and schedule and why it has never happened. Or for that matter your experience trying to get Defkalion to do the same thing and why THAT never happened either. You may have more experience in both efforts than anyone here. Private communication with Mr. Aussie may be necessary but publicly here would be more fun!
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
I have a trusted friend, a very experienced metal fabrication engineer, who has built BIG boilers, who is Italian but Aussie born. He will probably come along as he speaks the lingo and can arrange the 100 kW test with the local engineering firm, if their English is not that good. Additionally he is an extra pair of eyes, ears and hands. Plus I owe him a few favors. AG On 11/21/2011 4:25 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Yes. Don't run a blank. Don't check the measurement method. Just trust Rossi's word that his heat exchanger evaluates the enthalpy properly. Take it on faith. That's not what I said, is it? You have a remarkable talent for distortion, red herrings, and putting words in people's mouth. Let me repeat what I said: Let this company [the HVAC consulting engineers] handle everything. They have the instruments. They know the local regulations. They have done this thousands of times before. That's the HVAC company, not Rossi. He stays out of the picture, obviously. It would be the same arrangement as the Oct. 28 test reportedly was, where independent experts (Fioravanti and his group), bring all the instruments, set everything up, and they do all the testing. And before you say it, no I do not mean you hire Fioravanti himself. I don't even know where he is -- I wish I did. I mean you hire some local Italian consulting engineers, from the telephone book. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
To an engineer it is just another Black Box with inputs and outputs. The only give away that a LENR reaction is occurring inside the Black Box is the COP is greater than 1. Any HVAC engineer or firm would give their last Euro to test this device as they will get high ground for any future work. If a HVAC engineer can't get near it, then every customer will do likewise. So is this your next spin? It is dangerous because IT IS A NUCLEAR FUSION REACTOR? My how quickly you change tack. Can you change tack as quickly on a yacht? If so I could use you. AG Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi's device isn't an ordinary boiler for goodness' sake! It's a flippin' NUCLEAR FUSION REACTOR with claims of awesome power capabilities. I wouldn't let an HVAC engineer near it.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Good luck, Aussie, getting near it much less testing one. Or do you know any potential customer that has? Does Jed know anyone who privately tested the E-cat correctly and came away with positive results? Maybe actually ordered one? Oh ... there was a September visit by Quantum and NASA according to Krivit. But for some reason, Rossi's machine wouldn't start when either of those parties were there. Strange, no?
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
I find very little of what Krivit is saying since he visited Rossi has much of a relationship to reality. I do not read what he says anymore. In my opinion he has crawled out on a limb and is sawing it off. AG On 11/21/2011 5:12 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Good luck, Aussie, getting near it much less testing one. Or do you know any potential customer that has? Does Jed know anyone who privately tested the E-cat correctly and came away with positive results? Maybe actually ordered one? Oh ... there was a September visit by Quantum and NASA according to Krivit. But for some reason, Rossi's machine wouldn't start when either of those parties were there. Strange, no?
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: I find very little of what Krivit is saying since he visited Rossi has much of a relationship to reality. If it were not true, I would expect to see Quantum (a very large firm) and NASA (well... you know NASA) to officially deny it in print. It's not hard for them to make news releases and get press attention. How about you Jed? Do you believe those visits took place with those negative results?
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Does Jed know anyone who privately tested the E-cat correctly and came away with positive results? Yes, I do. Several people. Can you name one we can check with? And if not, why has nobody spoken out and written about the greatest invention of the century? But for some reason, Rossi's machine wouldn't start when either of those parties were there. Strange, no? No, that is not strange. No even one tiny bit strange. I myself have set up demonstrations of prototype products that worked splendidly for weeks, and then failed when customers walked through the door. Ah yes. But you conveniently forget that Rossi wrote repeatedly in his blog that he had tested HUNDREDS of E-cats for long periods of time and that some were ALWAYS under long term test in his lab/factory. He was at that time preparing for the October 6 and October 28 tests. You expect us to believe he could not find ONE working machine to show to a potentially giant world-wide customer and to *** NASA ***? That happens all the time to anyone who makes new things for a living. It is called Murphy's law. People such as Yugo who doubt this have no idea what RD is like. This is an examination of claims and facts. It has nothing to do with what RD is generally like. If Rossi's prototypes worked exactly right during a demonstration, I would suspect they are fake. Perhaps he is a master con-man who adds verisimilitude to his claims by having NASA people come for days while his machines spurt hot water through leaks and screw up in various ways. There has to an easier way to establish credibility. It defies the imagination to speculate that Rossi invited NASA and Quantum to see an E-cat and that, in the process of preparing and testing to show 100 of them, he could not locate a single one that worked.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: I find very little of what Krivit is saying since he visited Rossi has much of a relationship to reality. If it were not true, I would expect to see Quantum (a very large firm) and NASA (well... you know NASA) to officially deny it in print. Krivit's statement that the NASA tests failed is correct as far as I know. His other statements and his judgement about the overall situation are incorrect, in my opinion. It's not hard for them to make news releases and get press attention. How about you Jed? Do you believe those visits took place with those negative results? As far as I know they did. I haven't talked to the NASA people. I heard second-hand. I talked to several other people who saw tests done by Rossi that failed. In same cases he tried to make the thing work for days. It did not say boo. What is your point? Are you saying that because Rossi's demonstration for NASA failed, his other demonstrations also failed? You do not seem to understand that machines can work sometimes, and not work at other times. They can be unreliable. Prototype machines are prone to this. It is not surprising. Look at rocket launches and probes sent to Mars. Sometimes they work, but often they do not, despite the best efforts of some of the best engineers on earth. I wonder if that latest Russian Mars probe is lost? Still in LEO, I think. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: What is your point? That Rossi lies. He could not possibly be unable to find a working machine in September if, as he said, he had dozens under continuous test. With the obviously needed tests and preparations for October 6 and 28th, it is preposterous to believe that Rossi could come up with one working E-cat to show an extremely important potential client and a renown agency like NASA. Now to pure speculation: I think Rossi refused to show those people anything because he knew they would insist on a proper test and that he could not prevail if one was performed. I can't think of any other credible reason why he couldn't cough up a single working E-cat for those people.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I do. Several people. Can you name one we can check with? If I could, I would, wouldn't I? As I mentioned, I am trying to get permission to upload the photos and data. I have uploaded 1,200 documents, so it is clear I do not hold things back for no reason. If I reveal the names and other info without permission you can be darn sure I will get nothing more in the future from many researchers. Since I am not Krivit, I never do that. For now you have the brief statements by Focardi and Stremmenos. If you don't believe them you would believe me. For that matter you won't believe the photos and data. They could easily be faked. And if not, why has nobody spoken out and written about the greatest invention of the century? I have ~3,000 documents describing this invention. It defies the imagination to speculate that Rossi invited NASA and Quantum to see an E-cat and that, in the process of preparing and testing to show 100 of them, he could not locate a single one that worked. Yes, that does defy imagination, so I doubt that is what happened. Who told you that is what happened? You seem to know more about this incident than I do. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: With the obviously needed tests and preparations for October 6 and 28th, it is preposterous to believe that Rossi could come up with one working E-cat to show an extremely important potential client and a renown agency like NASA. Oops, sorry... could NOT come up with one working etc. ... obviously.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Who told you that is what happened? You seem to know more about this incident than I do Krivit. And there has been no denial from either Quantum or NASA. Perhaps with the contacts you have you could confirm or deny the report? Steven B. Krivit says: November 15, 2011 at 08:57http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/11/12/swedish-public-radio-turns-spotlight-on-lewan-and-ny-teknik/#comment-2489 1. Rossi has publicly told all his fans that he will not ask for money until he has a product for sale. 2. They believed him and propagated this information widely but it is not true. 3. Rossi took an unknown amount of money from Ampenergo, as reported by Lewan on May 16, 2011. 4. Rossi asked an engineer at NASA on July 22, 2011, for $15 million to “test” his device. NASA did not pay Rossi anything. 4. Rossi asked Defkalion to give him money by Aug. 1, 2011. Defkalion did not pay Rossi anything. Rossi himself is the source. 5. Rossi met with Quantum on Aug. 2-4. Again asked for millions of dollars. Quantum said “show me.” 6. Quantum reps went to Bologna on Sept. 5 and 6. Rossi asked them for money before they even finished their test attempt. They didn’t give him any money because Rossi interfered with their attempt to test the device. (NASA reps were present.) The sources who were there do not wish to be identified. However, NASA knows what happened. A document obtained from NASA by NET via FOIA states “[Rossi] does allow potential investors to kick the tires a bit … albeit strictly on his terms thus far.” November 15 comment here: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/11/12/swedish-public-radio-turns-spotlight-on-lewan-and-ny-teknik/#comments
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
By the way, I meant all of this advice to apply to the big, 100 kW reactor. Not the initial test of the single unit. As AG says, it would be hard to cock that up. It is a piece of cake. Still, it would be good to have your local HVAC engineering firm take part in that test too, to test out their knowledge. They can bring the input power analyzer, thermocouples and so on. As a practical matter, I would not want to schlep heavy instruments on airplanes. Just have someone show up with a van full of them, all set up the local electric power plugs. Yugo's question: how do you plan to make sure the measurements you acquire from the heat exchanger reflect the enthalpy accurately and are not due to such things as errors in thermocouple placement? . . . is really, really stupid. The answer is to use your own thermocouples, or ones provided by the local HVAC engineers. Obviously! AG understands that. By the way, during the Oct. 6 test, I could have ensured there was no error in the thermocouple placement. I could have done that in 5 minutes. In my sleep. That's another reason Yugo's question is dumb. Answer #2, who COULDN'T do that?!? I went over that issue with him before the test, e-mailing him advice from various people about how to avoid any question about that, by using multiple thermocouples. I was mad as hell at Rossi for not doing it, and he got pretty upset with me for telling him. That was another in a long series of sloppy mistakes on his part. He has been doing stuff like that for years. It is terribly annoying! If he did not have such high heat lasting far longer than any possible chemical effect, his results would be unconvincing. As I have said before, you can toss out all instrument readings from all thermocouples and still be sure of these results. Maybe you should. That is something Yugo completely fails to understand. These results are *not* dependent on instruments. I think Rossi fundamentally does not trust instruments. He says he wants an effect so large you do not need them. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: By the way, I meant all of this advice to apply to the big, 100 kW reactor. Not the initial test of the single unit. As AG says, it would be hard to cock that up. It is a piece of cake. I love that sort of optimism. So do scammers. By the way, during the Oct. 6 test, I could have ensured there was no error in the thermocouple placement. I could have done that in 5 minutes. In my sleep. That's another reason Yugo's question is dumb. Answer #2, who COULDN'T do that?!? Apparently Rossi and Lewan didn't seem to correct it. I went over that issue with him before the test, e-mailing him advice from various people about how to avoid any question about that, by using multiple thermocouples. I was mad as hell at Rossi for not doing it, and he got pretty upset with me for telling him. That was another in a long series of sloppy mistakes on his part. He has been doing stuff like that for years. It is terribly annoying! Annoying or deliberately misleading? How would you know which it is? If he did not have such high heat lasting far longer than any possible chemical effect, his results would be unconvincing. As I have said before, you can toss out all instrument readings from all thermocouples and still be sure of these results. Sure. Let's out instruments and use our fallible senses and fallible pattern recognition. Let's go back to the alchemists' methods perhaps. These results are *not* dependent on instruments. I think Rossi fundamentally does not trust instruments. He says he wants an effect so large you do not need them. He has never shown such an effect. The October 28 demo showed no steam at all and earlier demos mostly showed a piddling amount or it was all sent literally to a hole in Rossi's wall.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Krivit. And there has been no denial from either Quantum or NASA. Perhaps with the contacts you have you could confirm or deny the report? Steven B. Krivit says: November 15, 2011 at 08:57http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/11/12/swedish-public-radio-turns-spotlight-on-lewan-and-ny-teknik/#comment-2489 1. Rossi has publicly told all his fans that he will not ask for money until he has a product for sale. 2. They believed him and propagated this information widely but it is not true. 3. Rossi took an unknown amount of money from Ampenergo, as reported by Lewan on May 16, 2011. How much is an unknown amount? 4. Rossi asked an engineer at NASA on July 22, 2011, for $15 million to “test” his device. NASA did not pay Rossi anything. The $15 million was for an escrow subject to final approval by the customer after testing, so there is no danger Rossi could steal it. This is mostly nonsense mixed in with a few facts and Krivit's own opinions. I will not bother to go over the details. I do not know much about this stuff, since I have no interest in Rossi's business. I do not go around asking nosy questions. Frankly, I don't give a damn if Rossi is a scammer or not. His claims can be confirmed by first principles, and others have seen similar effects, so even if he is a scammer I am sure his machines work as claimed. Many scammers sell real technology, such as automobiles that have been accidents that have been covered up. I knew someone who did that, before the Internet allowed people to easily check the records of a car by VIN number. I doubt he is scamming with a real cold fusion reactor but people do odd things. You never know. As far as I know, his previous criminal career consisted of defrauding the stockholders in a company in which he himself was the only stockholder. Apparently that is a crime in Italy. Sort of like the politically incorrect scene in Blazing Saddles in which Bart points a pistol at his own head and kidnaps himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upvZdVK913I - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: . How much is an unknown amount? Please don't play ignorant. Or don't you know the source of this was an Ampenergo executive in an interview with NyTeknik and he said: *How much do you pay for the agreement?* Cassarino: Unfortunately that’s confidential. *Have you paid anything to Rossi yet?* Cassarino: Yes we have. *How much?* Cassarino: Let’s put it like this, it was an important piece of the equation. http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece%20%20%20http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece I've probably posted this five times by now in various places. You never saw it? And now, if I read it right, Defkalion claims they paid Rossi a first installment of $15 million though the translation is far from clear. It's in another string on Vortex. 4. Rossi asked an engineer at NASA on July 22, 2011, for $15 million to “test” his device. NASA did not pay Rossi anything. The $15 million was for an escrow subject to final approval by the customer after testing, so there is no danger Rossi could steal it. This is mostly nonsense mixed in with a few facts and Krivit's own opinions. I will not bother to go over the details. It's not nonsense. It's that Rossi was offered tests by Quantum and NASA and could not come up with a single working device. I do not know much about this stuff, since I have no interest in Rossi's business. I do not go around asking nosy questions. Frankly, I don't give a damn if Rossi is a scammer or not. Evidently. I doubt he is scamming with a real cold fusion reactor but people do odd things. You never know. I doubt it too. If he's scamming it will be with a phony cold fusion reactor and phony measurement methods. It's still if. We'll probably know more eventually. As far as I know, his previous criminal career consisted of defrauding the stockholders in a company in which he himself was the only stockholder. Apparently that is a crime in Italy. Sort of like the politically incorrect scene in Blazing Saddles in which Bart points a pistol at his own head and kidnaps himself. You keep saying that but I never saw any evidence for it. Also, it's not terribly important. Rossi's stark failure to deliver working thermoelectric modules to DOD is even more impressive.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: As AG says, it would be hard to cock that up. It is a piece of cake. I love that sort of optimism. So do scammers. Since he not going to buy the small unit, but only look at it for a preliminary evaluation, I do not see how this could be part of a scam. The big reactor calls for a professional test, as I said. Annoying or deliberately misleading? How would you know which it is? Since it did not mislead anyone, and it was clear to to everyone that it was sloppy, I think it was annoying. Why do you call something misleading when no one is misled? Sure. Let's out instruments and use our fallible senses and fallible pattern recognition. Yes, let's pretend that astronomy was not done entirely with visual observations and simple instruments up through Tycho. Let's pretend the The Origin of the Species was not entirely based on observation, without a single instrument reading, as were Newton's laws. Let's pretend people did make any technology until Newton and the development of modern instruments. No metallurgy, no cities, no aqueducts, no agriculture . . . nothing. He has never shown such an effect. So you say, but you refuse to comment on the fact that the machine remained palpably how for 4 hours when it should have cooled immediately. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: How much is an unknown amount? Please don't play ignorant. Or don't you know the source of this was an Ampenergo executive in an interview with NyTeknik and he said: *How much do you pay for the agreement?* Cassarino: Unfortunately that’s confidential. Okay, so how much was it? I repeat, how much is an unknown amount? A lot or a little? Rossi (or someone) is spending a great deal on these huge reactors. *Have you paid anything to Rossi yet?* Cassarino: Yes we have. *How much?* Cassarino: Let’s put it like this, it was an important piece of the equation. How much is that? Defkalion claims they paid Rossi a first installment of $15 million though the translation is far from clear. It's in another string on Vortex. They say they have paid anything. Rossi says they have not paid him anything. The translation says they had the money but they did not pay it. I do not know where you get the idea they paid. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
/snip/ As far as I know, his previous criminal career consisted of defrauding the stockholders in a company in which he himself was the only stockholder. /snip/ It looks like MY already called you on this, while I was writing, but nevertheless: I believe that he was accused of not actually processing the waste in any significant volume, and ended up just stockpiling waste. It reminds me of a story in the U.S., where a crematorium found it was cheaper to just stack the bodies up and give cement dust to the customers, than acually run the furnace. AFAIK his gold smuggling conviction had to do with illegal import/export of Gold (from Switzerland?), and not just defrauding himself. His time with thermoelectric generators at LTI is the time I find the most troubling. His apparent overstatement of performance, failure to produce a working product, factory fire, move to Italy, blaming subcontractors, etc. raises serious concerns. When government time and expense was used to essentially take over his manufacturing, he still could not exceed the industry norm. Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Krivit. And there has been no denial from either Quantum or NASA. Perhaps with the contacts you have you could confirm or deny the report? Steven B. Krivit says: November 15, 2011 at 08:57http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/11/12/swedish-public-radio-turns-spotlight-on-lewan-and-ny-teknik/#comment-2489 1. Rossi has publicly told all his fans that he will not ask for money until he has a product for sale. 2. They believed him and propagated this information widely but it is not true. 3. Rossi took an unknown amount of money from Ampenergo, as reported by Lewan on May 16, 2011. How much is an unknown amount? 4. Rossi asked an engineer at NASA on July 22, 2011, for $15 million to “test” his device. NASA did not pay Rossi anything. The $15 million was for an escrow subject to final approval by the customer after testing, so there is no danger Rossi could steal it. This is mostly nonsense mixed in with a few facts and Krivit's own opinions. I will not bother to go over the details. I do not know much about this stuff, since I have no interest in Rossi's business. I do not go around asking nosy questions. Frankly, I don't give a damn if Rossi is a scammer or not. His claims can be confirmed by first principles, and others have seen similar effects, so even if he is a scammer I am sure his machines work as claimed. Many scammers sell real technology, such as automobiles that have been accidents that have been covered up. I knew someone who did that, before the Internet allowed people to easily check the records of a car by VIN number. I doubt he is scamming with a real cold fusion reactor but people do odd things. You never know. As far as I know, his previous criminal career consisted of defrauding the stockholders in a company in which he himself was the only stockholder. Apparently that is a crime in Italy. Sort of like the politically incorrect scene in Blazing Saddles in which Bart points a pistol at his own head and kidnaps himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upvZdVK913I - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
I meant: Defkalion says they have NOT paid anything. Rossi says they have not paid him anything. I'll take their word for it, rather than your interpretation of the Google computer's auto-translation of a Greek newspaper. Anyway, who gives a damn how much anyone has paid to anyone else? What difference does that make? It is their business. They have not paid *me* anything. They don't owe me, either. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Since it did not mislead anyone, and it was clear to to everyone that it was sloppy, I think it was annoying. Why do you call something misleading when no one is misled? A lot of comments I see on various forums suggest hundreds or thousands of people have been misled Sure. Let's out instruments and use our fallible senses and fallible pattern recognition. Yes, let's pretend that astronomy was not done entirely with visual observations and simple instruments up through Tycho. Let's pretend the The Origin of the Species was not entirely based on observation, without a single instrument reading, as were Newton's laws. Let's pretend people did make any technology until Newton and the development of modern instruments. No metallurgy, no cities, no aqueducts, no agriculture . . . nothing. The heroic accomplishments of the past were made with lots of false starts, wasted efforts, and scams. Why repeat all that? This is the time of micro-electronics and every imaginable sort of accurate sensor, cheaply and easily acquired. And you suggest we should avoid them? Weird. He has never shown such an effect. So you say, but you refuse to comment on the fact that the machine remained palpably how for 4 hours when it should have cooled immediately. As you well know, the skeptical theory is that the device remained hot due to extensive preheating and the storage of energy in either some sort of mass such as fire brick heated to high temperature or the melting of a comparatively low temperature alloy. Rossi could have put those concerns to rest with a thorough inspection of the large E-cat of October 6. Instead he barely allowed the lid to be lifted. Nobody knows what was inside the finned box in the interior of the E-cat and it was quite large -- perhaps most of the 80Kg mass attributed in part to lead shielding was in fact a device to store and/or generate energy. He could have also removed all doubt by running much longer. That's what the NASA people said too. None of this is my invention nor am I the only person to make note of it.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote: It looks like MY already called you on this, while I was writing, but nevertheless: I believe that he was accused of not actually processing the waste in any significant volume, and ended up just stockpiling waste. . . . Well, I heard he was convicted of defrauding himself, but who knows. I do give a damn what he did or said. I do not depend on Rossi's personal credibility to evaluate these results. If I did, I wouldn't believe a word of it. I think that defines the essential difference between me and Yugo. I look at laws of physics, physical facts, and replications by others. I do not believe that stage magicians can actually hide reality, once you open up the machine. Yugo ignores all of that, pointing incessantly at Rossi's personality and at Steorn, Steorn, Steorn, and other alleged fraud, fraud, fraud. She ignores physical facts; I ignore rumors and people's behavior, because people behave in all kinds of inexplicable ways. There's naught queerer than folk. It is a huge difference in world view. She is obsessed with issues that I could not care less about, She calls me out (as you put it) about subjects that I don't care about, and that even they were true are irrelivant. I don't read rumors about Rossi and she never reads papers about cold fusion. The two views cannot be reconciled. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: I meant: Defkalion says they have NOT paid anything. Rossi says they have not paid him anything. I'll take their word for it, rather than your interpretation of the Google computer's auto-translation of a Greek newspaper. Anyway, who gives a damn how much anyone has paid to anyone else? What difference does that make? It is their business. No it isn't just their business. Rossi has claimed on many occasions that he can't be a scammer because he took no money from anyone. He claimed he spent all his own money and even had to sell his house -- that was on his blog and answers to interview questions. Many people who believe Rossi believe him mainly because they can't understand how he could profit from a scam without taking money. Now it turns out that Ampenergo claims they gave him substantial sums, Defkalion seems to be saying the same, and Rossi apparently asked Quantum and NASA for $15 million or more. And of course, nobody knows how much he may have collected or be about to collect from anonymous investors under NDA's. The reason the NyTeknik information and Krivit's are important is that they destroys Rossi's claim that he can't be a scammer because he either did not receive money and/or did not solicit it. Either or both seem to be another lie.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: As you well know, the skeptical theory is that the device remained hot due to extensive preheating and the storage of energy in either some sort of mass such as fire brick heated to high temperature or the melting of a comparatively low temperature alloy. Oh, yes, I know. But that is not a theory. That is preposterous nonsense. The observers picked the machine up to weigh it. They would have felt it was hot. There is no such thing as a perfect insulator. That reminds me of the theory that in Mizuno's heat after death event, the water in the buckets was being drunk by thousands of rats and mice whenever he turned his back. All of the other skeptical theories are equally preposterous. There is nothing skeptical about them. Anyone who takes them seriously is a gullible true believer, not a skeptic. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: I think that defines the essential difference between me and Yugo. I look at laws of physics, physical facts, and replications by others. I look at the same facts and come up with different conclusions. And Rossi's work has never been duplicated that anyone knows of. Not quantitatively anyway which is most of it's appeal to credibility IMO. Not even close. I know you think it has so show me someone purporting to market a megawatt machine that is said to run a year without refueling. I do not believe that stage magicians can actually hide reality, once you open up the machine. True but nobody from the outside press or scientists not associated with Rossi has ever been allowed to open up any of Rossi's machines and report. Unless you consider lifting the lid of the large E-cat on October 6 opening up. I don't. It was not a proper inspection. Anything could have been inside the large finned box and we would not know it. And most magicians allow *partial* inspection of their apparatus before and after the illusion. It's an important part of the act. Same perhaps with Rossi. Yugo ignores all of that, pointing incessantly at Rossi's personality and at Steorn, Steorn, Steorn, and other alleged fraud, fraud, fraud. If we neglect history, we may be doomed to repeating it. Steorn is a possible example of how Rossi may be behaving. With the exception that Rossi takes more risks with his demos than Steorn did and he's better at it. It would be difficult to be a more transparent and incompetent liar than Sean McCarthy is during his Steorn demos. She ignores physical facts No I don't. For example, I pointed out how the physical fact of film boiling makes it highly unlikely that Levi's experiment in February achieved the reported 130 kW of power generation claimed within the small volume claimed. It is a huge difference in world view. She is obsessed with issues that I could not care less about, She calls me out (as you put it) about subjects that I don't care about, and that even they were true are irrelivant. I don't read rumors about Rossi and she never reads papers about cold fusion. The two views cannot be reconciled. Actually you should read more of what you consider are rumors about Rossi because what I usually cite is published and not denied and therefore not simply a rumor. Second, I am starting to read Storm's introduction to students and Arata's paper. It will take some time with Arata's because while it seems clear enough, it's written in a very convoluted way and the figures take a lot of work to understand. It's not how a modern paper should be organized and illustrated. It looks like it's out of the beginning of the previous century but I will try to slog through it. Also I wish Arata had used a simple and direct, easily blanked and calibrated Seebeck effect (all enclosing heat flux--sensor-based) calorimeter instead of whatever it was he did use to measure net energy production. Apparently Storms uses one but I have not seen any results from it yet. Of course none of that has much to do with Rossi. Even if Arata is right, Rossi could be a scammer. His claims are vastly grander in scale. And he uses a different system.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Nov 20, 2011, at 13:05, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: And why in the world would you trust people who install large industrial devices? In my experience they have a lot of practical knowledge on how to do their jobs according to instructions and protocols but not the formal education to understand the reasons. Rossi's device isn't an ordinary boiler for goodness' sake! It's a flippin' NUCLEAR FUSION REACTOR with claims of awesome power capabilities. I wouldn't let an HVAC engineer near it. Really? What better way to apply best practices in standard, practical calorimetry?
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Am 20.11.2011 22:35, schrieb Charles Hope: On Nov 20, 2011, at 13:05, Mary Yugomaryyu...@gmail.com wrote: And why in the world would you trust people who install large industrial devices? In my experience they have a lot of practical knowledge on how to do their jobs according to instructions and protocols but not the formal education to understand the reasons. Rossi's device isn't an ordinary boiler for goodness' sake! It's a flippin' NUCLEAR FUSION REACTOR with claims of awesome power capabilities. I wouldn't let an HVAC engineer near it. Really? What better way to apply best practices in standard, practical calorimetry? Agree. Industrial specialists will use known and approved standard methods. Any other professional can repeat the measurement. They will document it and underwrite it. The measurement will be repeatable and will be made with instruments that are supervised and calibrated 2 or 4 times per year by a quality control strategy. Even if errors where made, these can been reproduced under these conditions, this is very important. The best possibility would be to connect a device that they already know. For example a room-heater radiator and let them measure this. The best is to choose people that dont know anything about nuclear theories ;-)
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
About Rossi judicial status re: Petroldragon, he was only convicted of the financial stuff, as Jed said, and that was because he tried to keep the company going by cooking the books to get loans when things were going badly. He was found not guilty of the toxic waste trafficking stuff. Indeed, that is what stopped him. He was buying what was defined as an industrial byproduct, the spent lubricant that was, until then, simply burned without much concern. Then, the law changed and it became toxic waste. Immediately, somebody who did not like him or his business accused him of trafficking in toxic waste without permits. He had a couple of old refineries full of it, hard to hide. At the same time, he could not dispose of it in any other way thatn dumping it in a regulated dump That was the only legal disposal method available after the law change. His mistake, at that point, was to cook the books, as I said, instead of cutting his losses by moving to Australia or something. Alternatively, he should have run for Prime Minister. On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: On Nov 20, 2011, at 13:05, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: And why in the world would you trust people who install large industrial devices? In my experience they have a lot of practical knowledge on how to do their jobs according to instructions and protocols but not the formal education to understand the reasons. Rossi's device isn't an ordinary boiler for goodness' sake! It's a flippin' NUCLEAR FUSION REACTOR with claims of awesome power capabilities. I wouldn't let an HVAC engineer near it. Really? What better way to apply best practices in standard, practical calorimetry? -- Marcello Vitale via Cavallotti 5, 20093 Cologno Monzese, MI, ITALY phone: +39 338 484 9724 skype: marcello_vitale_UK email: mvit...@ucsbalum.net
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
In general I endorse Jed's suggestion ... HVAC Engineer + your own portable instruments as a cross-check. But I'd make sure that your specification includes: Steam Quality : % Fluid Water % Entrained Droplets % Dry steam Measured continuously/every T seconds/minutes/hours Electrical Input: Ensure there is no cheating ... like high-frequency futz, waveform/phase manipulation. And I mean specification -- no need to tell them HOW to do it.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Mary failed to accurately read what they actually said about that transaction. I have pointed this out to Mary before. What Defkalion said was they had the funds ready but Rossi failed to complete the contract. Apparently no money changed hands. AG On 11/21/2011 6:50 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Defkalion claims they paid Rossi a first installment of $15 million though the translation is far from clear. It's in another string on Vortex. They say they have paid anything. Rossi says they have not paid him anything. The translation says they had the money but they did not pay it. I do not know where you get the idea they paid. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
What you wrote is so full of incorrect statements as to finally label you as a confirmed basher. The heat storage theory has been totally busted. The E-Cat was lifted off the table and onto a scale to measure the pre test weight. There is no way any heat storage could have been hidden during that process. The human hands and arms on the E-Cat module would have detected it. As for ..he barely allowed the lid to be lifted? You must think we are thick. The top lid was TOTALLY removed. AG On 11/21/2011 6:58 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: As you well know, the skeptical theory is that the device remained hot due to extensive preheating and the storage of energy in either some sort of mass such as fire brick heated to high temperature or the melting of a comparatively low temperature alloy. Rossi could have put those concerns to rest with a thorough inspection of the large E-cat of October 6. Instead he barely allowed the lid to be lifted. Nobody knows what was inside the finned box in the interior of the E-cat and it was quite large -- perhaps most of the 80Kg mass attributed in part to lead shielding was in fact a device to store and/or generate energy. He could have also removed all doubt by running much longer. That's what the NASA people said too. None of this is my invention nor am I the only person to make note of it.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Marcello Vitale mvit...@ucsbalum.net wrote: Indeed, that is what stopped him. He was buying what was defined as an industrial byproduct, the spent lubricant that was, until then, simply burned without much concern. Then, the law changed and it became toxic waste. Immediately, somebody who did not like him or his business accused him of trafficking in toxic waste without permits. Wow, what a story. His mistake, at that point, was to cook the books, as I said, instead of cutting his losses by moving to Australia or something. Alternatively, he should have run for Prime Minister. Hilarious! And so topical. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
AG: Correct, and Cude is guilty of the same kind of statements... in one post he states that there has been NO improvement in CF/LENR evidence at all since 1989. This is total BS... just look at Jed's website for hundreds of papers, many of which have heat in excess of 10 to 100 times the accuracy of the calorimeter. No, MY and JC are polluting the good technical discussions on vortex with regurgitation of the same old points... which we are all aware of, and have been since the very first test in January. -Mark -Original Message- From: Aussie Guy E-Cat [mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 5:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company! What you wrote is so full of incorrect statements as to finally label you as a confirmed basher. The heat storage theory has been totally busted. The E-Cat was lifted off the table and onto a scale to measure the pre test weight. There is no way any heat storage could have been hidden during that process. The human hands and arms on the E-Cat module would have detected it. As for ..he barely allowed the lid to be lifted? You must think we are thick. The top lid was TOTALLY removed. AG
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
Went to Washington yesterday. Met with a company VP's with connections at the navy labs. Signed a non disclosure. Made a plan, and cant say a thing. I know this sounds like a bunch of hokes pokes too. It's real and that's the way things happen. Its not all blab blab blab on the internet. I just hope, for once, that my stuff works and produces anonymous energy. Moving ahead. Frank Z
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: in one post he states that there has been NO improvement in CF/LENR evidence at all since 1989. This is total BS... just look at Jed's website for hundreds of papers, many of which have heat in excess of 10 to 100 times the accuracy of the calorimeter. According to Storms book, PF claimed 27 W output in 1989 (and I recall a gain of 10 or so from reading the paper a long time ago). I haven't seen significant progress beyond those results. It's interesting to read the account of Energetic's first big success in 2004. They measured about 20 W and a gain of 20 or so, and they were dancing in the lab. So, it is reason for celebration to essentially match the 1989 results. And since 2004, the reported Energetics' results that I've seen have not come close to their 2004 high-water mark. There have been some higher claims in the interim, like Patterson's (although even that was in the 90s), and now of course Rossi's. And in Rossi's case, the evidence does not bear up under even modest internet scrutiny.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: As you well know, the skeptical theory is that the device remained hot due to extensive preheating and the storage of energy in either some sort of mass such as fire brick heated to high temperature or the melting of a comparatively low temperature alloy. Oh, yes, I know. But that is not a theory. That is preposterous nonsense. The observers picked the machine up to weigh it. They would have felt it was hot. There is no such thing as a perfect insulator. The heating was done after the weighing. The point is that the total output energy does not convincingly exceed the total input energy.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: It will take some time with Arata's because while it seems clear enough, it's written in a very convoluted way and the figures take a lot of work to understand. It's not how a modern paper should be organized and illustrated. It looks like it's out of the beginning of the previous century but I will try to slog through it. I read something of Arata's that Rothwell recommended (from 2008), and it was far from convincing. The problem is the same in much of the CF literature. It's not so much what is written, which is often too incomplete or marginal to be convincing, but what is not done or written. In Arata's case, he used 7 grams of Pd-something to produce a degree or two temperature elevation above ambient for some 48 hours or so. Except that the ambient temperature wasn't monitored. Then he calculated the heat based on some kind of calibrated heat loss. One can try to slog through these results as you say, but they just scream out such obvious checks, that absent those, it doesn't seem worth the trouble slogging. For example, if the thing is maintaining a couple of degrees above ambient for 2 days, isn't it blatantly obvious that if he insulated the cell a little better, the temperature would climb? And wouldn't temperature *climbing* for 2 days to maybe 10 degrees above ambient attract a little more attention. Likewise, if he gets a degree or two with 7 grams of Pd, why doesn't he do it with 70 grams or 700 grams, and get an effect that is unmistakeable. Evidently there are very complicated theoretical reasons that scaling up doesn't work... Arata's results are also kind of inconsistent with the electrolysis results. In the D-Pd electrolysis experiments, the claim is that the loading of the deuterium has to be well above 90% to see cold fusion. But in Arata's case, even though it is still D-Pd, the loading is much lower, probably well below 50%, and yet he observes cold fusion.
RE: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!
JC, you used the specific wording, .the evidence has not improved at all. That is the kind of statement I'd expect from a pathological skeptic. or someone totally ignorant of the research. which you are not. ignorant of the research, that is. Here are three elements of LENR research which show your not improved at all statement to be total BS. or worse, intentionally misleading to those readers who are not as knowledgeable about what has been accomplished by the LENR research community: 1) Calorimetry has drastically improved, which has only served to improve the signal-to-noise (i.e., confidence level) of the results, so even if your claims that the amount of heat hasn't improved (which I don't agree with), the chances that the excess heat was due to error is much reduced due to the excellent calorimetry that has been developed to make the measurements. NASA has confirmed the excess heat to their satisfaction. only a pathological skeptic would argue against excess heat. 2) Knowledge about what criteria must be met to get successful results has definitely come out of the research. 3) Due to #2, repeatability has most definitely improved since FP's work; some labs have reported better than 80% repeatability. What bothers me about you is that you are quite knowledgeable about physics in general, and about some of the LENR research, and yet you make statements that are so blatantly wrong and misleading. With the knowledge you have about LENR research, you must be aware of these facts, but you choose to mislead by not including relevant points which don't support your POV. which don't support your agenda. Over the past 6+ months, your postings have less good technical analyses, and more of the above kinds of statements.. -Mark From: Joshua Cude [mailto:joshua.c...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 10:29 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company! On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: in one post he states that there has been NO improvement in CF/LENR evidence at all since 1989. This is total BS... just look at Jed's website for hundreds of papers, many of which have heat in excess of 10 to 100 times the accuracy of the calorimeter. According to Storms book, PF claimed 27 W output in 1989 (and I recall a gain of 10 or so from reading the paper a long time ago). I haven't seen significant progress beyond those results. It's interesting to read the account of Energetic's first big success in 2004. They measured about 20 W and a gain of 20 or so, and they were dancing in the lab. So, it is reason for celebration to essentially match the 1989 results. And since 2004, the reported Energetics' results that I've seen have not come close to their 2004 high-water mark. There have been some higher claims in the interim, like Patterson's (although even that was in the 90s), and now of course Rossi's. And in Rossi's case, the evidence does not bear up under even modest internet scrutiny.
