Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
Rossi did not even answer the question. lol Harry On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Francesco Fiorenzani December 10th, 2011 at 10:03 AM Dear Andrea Rossi In your opinion the collaboration with University of Bologna will start before the next March or not? thank you Francesco Fiorenzani Andrea Rossi December 10th, 2011 at 10:17 AM Dear Francesco Fiorenzani: As I already repeated many times, all the RD work we are doing with our Consultants is totally confidential and we are not going to give any information about it. If reports will be made, it will not be before 1 year from now, and such information will regard only the data we will deem publicable, since all the RD is paid by us, not by the taxpayer, so that it will be totally proprietary. We will not even disclose the names of the persons which will make the job. Warm Regards, A.R. http://www.rossilivecat.com/ Why would a simple test by the university of whether or not the E-cat works as advertised need to be secret? Why not disclose the names of persons which will make the job? Maybe because the job like the customer may not exist? And any university will stand for this? Aussie Guy expects to get a bunch of containerized E-cats he could potentially take apart and reverse engineer and the U of Bologna with whom Rossi has a contract won't be allowed to reveal even who is working on the project? That's credible?
RE: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
Well, if the testing has already begun, if is being flatly denied by UNIBO: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/12/01/university-of-bologna-clarifies-relationship-with-rossi/ Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 12:46:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year From: hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Rossi did not even answer the question. lol Harry On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Francesco Fiorenzani December 10th, 2011 at 10:03 AM Dear Andrea Rossi In your opinion the collaboration with University of Bologna will start before the next March or not? thank you Francesco Fiorenzani Andrea Rossi December 10th, 2011 at 10:17 AM Dear Francesco Fiorenzani: As I already repeated many times, all the RD work we are doing with our Consultants is totally confidential and we are not going to give any information about it. If reports will be made, it will not be before 1 year from now, and such information will regard only the data we will deem publicable, since all the RD is paid by us, not by the taxpayer, so that it will be totally proprietary. We will not even disclose the names of the persons which will make the job. Warm Regards, A.R. http://www.rossilivecat.com/ Why would a simple test by the university of whether or not the E-cat works as advertised need to be secret? Why not disclose the names of persons which will make the job? Maybe because the job like the customer may not exist? And any university will stand for this? Aussie Guy expects to get a bunch of containerized E-cats he could potentially take apart and reverse engineer and the U of Bologna with whom Rossi has a contract won't be allowed to reveal even who is working on the project? That's credible?
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
On 2011-12-11 18:46, Harry Veeder wrote: Rossi did not even answer the question. lol I think we should now expect Rossi to not activate (i.e. pay) his contract with the University of Bologna in January, and see him come out at some point with a [mostly] undisclosed report of an undisclosed 1MW plant test made in an undisclosed location by undisclosed scientists of a famous (very important) undisclosed entity somewhere. This obviously won't have any credibility at all. It's time to move on, methinks. Let's hope that Defkalion GT or other scientists (supposedly close to reaching commercially viable results) won't back off from reputable, independent, thorough testing at the last minute or postpone it forever. People in contact with them should urge such testing to begin as soon as possible, and to make results public. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: Let's hope that Defkalion GT or other scientists (supposedly close to reaching commercially viable results) won't back off from reputable, independent, thorough testing at the last minute or postpone it forever. People in contact with them should urge such testing to begin as soon as possible, and to make results public. Agreed. However Defkalion is even less credible than Rossi. If you followed their various exorbitant claims on their forum, not a single one of which has ever been verified, you'd believe them less than you do Rossi. Last I recall hearing about it, Jed Rothwell was assisting potential investors with a planned to visit to Defkalion to conduct what seemed to me likely to be well designed tests of their technology. But it never happened, did it? And it's not scheduled any more, right? IIRC, it was to take place in October. Nor is there any evidence that Defkalion, as they claimed, provided devices to the Greek authorities for safety and efficacy testing and certification. A member of the Greek Parliament from Xanthi attempted to find the relevant agencies and ask them about it and everyone he asked about it said they never heard of any such tests. The results were due in Q4 2011 which is almost over. I have not been following their forum much since it became a weird labyrinth and hard to follow even with a clever tracker designed by the individual who made a great script which follows Rossi's blog. Is there any reason to believe anything Defkalion claims at this point?
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
On 2011-12-11 19:28, Mary Yugo wrote: [...] Is there any reason to believe anything Defkalion claims at this point? Basing on recently disclosed information, independent testing should occur within the first months of next year. Confidential information at my disposal also leads me to believe they might have something. In any case, we'll know much sooner than in Rossi's case (not before a year from now), it seems. I didn't intend to put too much emphasis on DGT in my previous message, by the way. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
You are right that Rossi and Defkalion did proof nothing certain. but We have to understand that in the business logic(unscientific) they have no incentive to prove anything to us, the opposite. they just have incentive to prove to their clients, and convince others nothing works, until competitors get cooked. If I was paranoid, i would say that the few they say is more the proof of a scam, because if it was real they would say nothing... but this reasoning would forget about incoherent motivation especially for Rossi who is passionate. Defkalion and Rossi also have some incentive to communicate, but only to get motivated candidates for tests, but only a few (the most motivated). 2011/12/11 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com Agreed. However Defkalion is even less credible than Rossi. If you followed their various exorbitant claims on their forum, not a single one of which has ever been verified, you'd believe them less than you do Rossi.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
Agreed. 1 year exceeds my subjective deadline of October 28th. Time to move on... 2011/12/11 Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com On 2011-12-11 18:46, Harry Veeder wrote: Rossi did not even answer the question. lol I think we should now expect Rossi to not activate (i.e. pay) his contract with the University of Bologna in January, and see him come out at some point with a [mostly] undisclosed report of an undisclosed 1MW plant test made in an undisclosed location by undisclosed scientists of a famous (very important) undisclosed entity somewhere. This obviously won't have any credibility at all. It's time to move on, methinks. Let's hope that Defkalion GT or other scientists (supposedly close to reaching commercially viable results) won't back off from reputable, independent, thorough testing at the last minute or postpone it forever. People in contact with them should urge such testing to begin as soon as possible, and to make results public. Cheers, S.A. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
RE: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
Mary, and many LENR-under-informed or patho-skeptics, point to things like this as evidence to support their beliefs: Nor is there any evidence that Defkalion, as they claimed, provided devices to the Greek authorities for safety and efficacy testing and certification. A member of the Greek Parliament from Xanthi attempted to find the relevant agencies and ask them about it and everyone he asked about it said they never heard of any such tests. First, Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Second, How many people did this person ask? I can't imagine that a member of the Greek Parliament is posting on Vortex or any other 'discussion group', so what do we know about the person who made that statement? Do they PERSONALLY know the member of Parliament? Is this second-hand, third-hand, or even fourth-hand information? Some here are so eager to grasp onto and repeat supportive statements to their position REGARDLESS of who they come from, and regardless of what can be confirmed about the veracity and factualness of those statements. they simply repeat them as fact when I seriously doubt that has been conclusively established. MY POINT IS, ALL THIS DISCUSSION, WHETHER YOU THINK ITS FOR OR AGAINST, IS ABSOLUTELY A WASTE OF TIME AND BANDWIDTH. NOTHING CAN BE CONCLUDED FROM IT. If you want to discuss anything, stick to the technical results for which we *DO* have evidence. or else, just don't post anything (increase SNR), or only when something NEW happens (increase SNR). you should all be asking yourselves BEFORE you hit Send, Does this increase the SNR? -mark
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Mary, and many LENR-under-informed or patho-skeptics, point to things like this as evidence to support their beliefs Name calling now? Nice. What, exactly is a patho-skeptic? Someone who doubts a convicted felon who makes extravagant claims and then won't provide definitive proof that is extremely easy, safe and cheap to come by? “Nor is there any evidence that Defkalion, as they claimed, provided devices to the Greek authorities for safety and efficacy testing and certification. A member of the Greek Parliament from Xanthi attempted to find the relevant agencies and ask them about it and everyone he asked about it said they never heard of any such tests.” ** ** First, “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” As it turns out, you're the one who is under-informed. The reference to the lack of application within the Greek administration is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg51035.html If the Greek government bureaucracy is anything like the US, inquiries from members of Parliament get the highest priority because Parliament controls much of the funding for the agencies. And the inquiry did not reveal any application which strongly suggests that the application does not exist. Defkalion was also asked repeatedly in their forum to give the name of the agency, a contact person within an agency who can confirm that an application was filed, a copy of the application, ANYTHING demonstrating that they filed as they claimed. They have not produced one iota of evidence. Absence of evidence is in fact evidence of absence when a proper search has been made and evidence should have been uncovered if it existed. Where did that phrase you apparently quoted out of context come from anyway? Second, How many people did this person ask? I can’t imagine that a member of the Greek Parliament is posting on Vortex or any other ‘discussion group’, so what do we know about the person who made that statement? Do they PERSONALLY know the member of Parliament? Is this second-hand, third-hand, or even fourth-hand information? Your assertions are wrong. See the above reference. ** ** Some here are so eager to grasp onto and repeat supportive statements to their position REGARDLESS of who they come from, and regardless of what can be confirmed about the veracity and factualness of those statements… they simply repeat them as fact when I seriously doubt that has been conclusively established. ** ** MY POINT IS, ALL THIS DISCUSSION, WHETHER YOU THINK ITS FOR OR AGAINST, IS ABSOLUTELY A WASTE OF TIME AND BANDWIDTH. NOTHING CAN BE CONCLUDED FROM IT. You're the one wasting bandwidth by not checking or Googling to find the appropriate reference in this very forum! Whenever you question my integrity or the evidence I cite, I plan to reply! If you want to discuss anything, stick to the technical results for which we **DO** have evidence… or else, just don’t post anything (increase SNR), or only when something NEW happens (increase SNR)… you should all be asking yourselves BEFORE you hit Send, “Does this increase the SNR?” Far as I know, you don't own this forum and you are not an administrator. If someone who is objects to my posts, I'll be happy to comply with their recommendations. I've read the guidelines and I'm pretty sure I'm within them. Your post above? Maybe not. If you have some credible evidence that Defkalion has a factory, employs a large work force, is preparing to make large numbers of cold fusion/LENR devices for sale or has applied for a license from the Greek authorities to do so, I'd love to read it. Otherwise, I'd rather not believe them because they lied repeatedly on their forum about their accomplishments before --multiple times. Even giving them every benefit of language issues which could be resolved simply by asking an English speaking person, they grossly misled if they didn't outright lie. One only has to spend some time with forum posts they made on their own web site from May and June. Nothing they predicted for Q4 2011 has happened -- not one test, not one device shown in public, no factory shown, no heating of the Police Academy of Xanthi (LOL) ... nothing.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
Mary: You should read the entire thread which ended with the following exchange between me and Terry: Mark Iverson: Didn't they change the location to Cypress? Or was that just rumor? I tend to gloss over the non-technical details. Terry Blanton: Defkalion Green Technologies is actually a Cypress based company. not Greek. Mark Iverson: So, has anyone checked to see if Defkalion has filed an application with the appropriate agency on Cypress??? Probably not... at least not yet! There was NEVER any response as to whether someone checked with various agencies on Cypress. so what are we to conclude? At best, that the inquiry to Greek agencies proves nothing. Which goes to the whole point of my posting. that these kinds of debates are useless and a waste of time because they almost never result in any clear conclusions. Why do you think that this discussion group was formed over a decade ago and still exists with many of the same members? Because we don't care to belong to a discussion group which is nothing more than the 'true believer' vs the 'pathological skeptics'. useless bickering ad nauseum. We focus on what we feel are facts that we do know, try to analyze them as best we can, and then set out 'credibility meter' to whatever we personally feel the evidence and analyses warrant. And that could change any day with new info, so just sit back and wait for new data to come it. -Mark
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: “So, has anyone checked to see if Defkalion has filed an application with the appropriate agency on Cypress??? Probably not... at least not yet!” Except that Defkalion specifically said their factory was in Xanthi, Greece, not Cypress. They said that they had applied to the GREEK authorities (again: not Cypress) and they also said that by now, they'd be supplying heat to the Xanthi Police Academy! That none of this appears to be true is indeed evidence-- evidence that Defkalion was lying. If they lie about that, they are probably lying about much more. And it is not an issue of simple technical issues causing delays. If it were, they would have issued an explanation and a new time line. There is nothing pathological about that line of thought nor do I think it to be useless bickering.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
That they promised to heat the police academy was before they broke up with Rossi, right? 2011/12/11 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: “So, has anyone checked to see if Defkalion has filed an application with the appropriate agency on Cypress??? Probably not... at least not yet!” Except that Defkalion specifically said their factory was in Xanthi, Greece, not Cypress. They said that they had applied to the GREEK authorities (again: not Cypress) and they also said that by now, they'd be supplying heat to the Xanthi Police Academy! That none of this appears to be true is indeed evidence-- evidence that Defkalion was lying. If they lie about that, they are probably lying about much more. And it is not an issue of simple technical issues causing delays. If it were, they would have issued an explanation and a new time line. There is nothing pathological about that line of thought nor do I think it to be useless bickering. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
RE: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
Mary wrote: That none of this appears to be true is indeed evidence-- evidence that Defkalion was lying. NO, IT IS NOT EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE LYING! There are a number of explanations which are just as plausible: - knowledge of the application's existence has not made it up to whatever level of the manager who was asked at that time. If that manager became aware of the application the next week, would they take the time to contact the person who asked, if they even knew who that was, to update them on the existence of the application, or, - the Dept involved may be under direction to NOT answer questions related to the application due to its potentially overwhelming nature and/or military use. Relying on statements from as politically charged an environment as this, and with all the turmoil in Greece, and with all the corruption and power struggles going on, as evidence of DGT's lying, is walking way out on a very flimsy limb. Also, note this phrase in your statement, appears to be true. Perceptions are used by clever people to mislead the masses. politicians and people in decision-making positions are keenly aware of this. I've known people at the Director level in govt organizations who have specifically said that perceptions are everything. they know that their effectiveness as a Director is based more on perceptions, than facts and figures. So they carefully cultivate the perceptions that others have of their Dept. I don't think its pathological at all to ask whether or not there was an application submitted. checking up on claims by some person or company is appropriate. However, depending on the circumstances, as I have now stated several times as being the whole point, it is a very rare instance where those kinds of inquiries results in any definitive conclusions. ergo, the initial inquiry degrades into useless bickering. -Mark
RE: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
I don't know Daniel. but that's certainly a relevant point. I've only skimmed these kinds of topics since they rarely prove ANYTHING, positive or negative. I have only been engaging in the discussion lately in an attempt to raise the SNR of this forum. -mark From: Daniel Rocha [mailto:danieldi...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 1:01 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year That they promised to heat the police academy was before they broke up with Rossi, right? 2011/12/11 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: So, has anyone checked to see if Defkalion has filed an application with the appropriate agency on Cypress??? Probably not... at least not yet! Except that Defkalion specifically said their factory was in Xanthi, Greece, not Cypress. They said that they had applied to the GREEK authorities (again: not Cypress) and they also said that by now, they'd be supplying heat to the Xanthi Police Academy! That none of this appears to be true is indeed evidence-- evidence that Defkalion was lying. If they lie about that, they are probably lying about much more. And it is not an issue of simple technical issues causing delays. If it were, they would have issued an explanation and a new time line. There is nothing pathological about that line of thought nor do I think it to be useless bickering. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: That they promised to heat the police academy was before they broke up with Rossi, right? I think that's correct. But they also claimed they have their own technology and don't need Rossi. In fact their Hyperion modules claim a larger power output per module than Rossi's modules if I remember it right.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
No, not name calling. it is a valid term according to many definitive references, this one from Webster's Online Dictionary: The terms Pathological skepticism and Pseudoskepticism were coined, by Marcello Truzzi (sociology professor at Eastern Michigan University), in the early 1990s in response to the skeptic groups who apply the label of Pathological Science to fields which Truzzi thought might be better described as protoscience. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/Pathological+skepticis m?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/Pathological+skeptici sm?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlqcof=FORID%3A9ie=UTF-8q=Pa thological+skepticismsa=Search#906 cof=FORID%3A9ie=UTF-8q=Pathological+skepticismsa=Search#906 Bill Beaty, the founder and administrator of vortex-l, has his take on it as well: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/pathskep.html If a person has only recently (past 12 months) learned about lenr-canr.org, or New Energy Times, or read Eugene Mallove's expose of MIT's fraudulent publication, then I'd consider them 'LENR-under-informed'. I would include you, Mary, in that category; NOT the patho-skeptic group. Sorry if you got than impression. You are a newbie when it comes to LENR, as many here are, and yes, you have apparently made an attempt to bring yourself up to speed on LENR research. Great! But all of the 'regulars' here on Vortex have been following and discussing LENR for 22 YEARS; first on the usenet newsgroup, sci.physics.fusion, and then on vortex after it was created. I still have some dot-matrix printouts of CF conversation threads from way back in 1989/1990. And regarding name-calling, I believe you have made more than one reference to those who choose to bring up the positive side of the Rossi/DGT soap-opera as being 'true believers'. Sort of like what happens to indiscriminate believers? http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg56672.html Which is a sarcastic jab at anyone who is on the supportive side of the 'battle'. So who is doing the name calling? I think I took the high road and used the term, 'under-informed', which is an accurate description, and it at least gives credit to those people, such as yourself, who have started to read the immense amount of material that is out there and at least begun to come up to speed on the past 22 years of LENR research. -Mark From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:56 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Mary, and many LENR-under-informed or patho-skeptics, point to things like this as evidence to support their beliefs Name calling now? Nice. What, exactly is a patho-skeptic? Someone who doubts a convicted felon who makes extravagant claims and then won't provide definitive proof that is extremely easy, safe and cheap to come by? Nor is there any evidence that Defkalion, as they claimed, provided devices to the Greek authorities for safety and efficacy testing and certification. A member of the Greek Parliament from Xanthi attempted to find the relevant agencies and ask them about it and everyone he asked about it said they never heard of any such tests. First, Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As it turns out, you're the one who is under-informed. The reference to the lack of application within the Greek administration is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg51035.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg51035.html If the Greek government bureaucracy is anything like the US, inquiries from members of Parliament get the highest priority because Parliament controls much of the funding for the agencies. And the inquiry did not reveal any application which strongly suggests that the application does not exist. Defkalion was also asked repeatedly in their forum to give the name of the agency, a contact person within an agency who can confirm that an application was filed, a copy of the application, ANYTHING demonstrating that they filed as they claimed. They have not produced one iota of evidence. Absence of evidence is in fact evidence of absence when a proper search has been made and evidence should have been uncovered if it existed. Where did that phrase you apparently quoted out of context come from anyway? Second, How many people did this person ask? I can't imagine that a member of the Greek Parliament is posting on Vortex or any other 'discussion group', so what do we know about the person who made that statement? Do they PERSONALLY know the member of Parliament? Is this second-hand, third-hand, or even fourth-hand information? Your assertions are wrong. See the above reference. Some here are so eager to
RE: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
Mary wrote: Someone who doubts a convicted felon who makes extravagant claims and then won't provide definitive proof that is extremely easy, safe and cheap to come by? Oh brother. not that again. As usual, the material regarding Rossi's questionable history has been rehashed numerous times on this forum, as well as the second part of that statement... SNR decreasing. Further comments to the discussion between Mary and myself: The reference to the lack of application within the Greek administration is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg51035.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg51035.html If the Greek government bureaucracy is anything like the US, The Greek govt is in utter turmoil, much worse than the U.S., plus it is highly socialistic, which I would argue greatly exacerbates the corruption. So like I said, using that as evidence is like walking out on a very flimsy limb. And even MORE to my point, I can provide rational opposing points when discussing such circumstantial or ad-hoc 'evidence' so those kinds of discussions are USELESS, and just end up in bickering. inquiries from members of Parliament get the highest priority because Parliament controls much of the funding for the agencies. And if one of those govt officials thinks that the technology is a threat to their power, or even more importantly, of strategic importance to the country, they can put a kibosh on any further mentioning of it via official channels. Defkalion was also asked repeatedly in their forum to give the name of the agency, a contact person within an agency who can confirm that an application was filed, a copy of the application, ANYTHING demonstrating that they filed as they claimed. They have not produced one iota of evidence. If you honestly think that is proof, then I think you're way off. It proves nothing! They are a company, and they do not have to provide ANY information that they are not legally obligated to provide, and answering questions on a company forum are NOT LEGALLY required. That I can GUARANTEE. It might look suspicious, it probably pisses you off, but it is not proof! Absence of evidence is in fact evidence of absence when a proper search has been made and evidence should have been uncovered if it existed. As explained above, there are as many reasonable explanations for and against, why that search, at the time it was done, didn't bear fruit. That is not evidence of absence. Where did that phrase you apparently quoted out of context come from anyway? What phase are you referring to? -mark
Re: [Vo]:Rossi plans to muzzle the university project for at least a year
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Where did that phrase you apparently quoted out of context come from anyway?” What phase are you referring to? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence It's cute but often wrong. I guess we think in different ways. One of my favorite phrases with reference to scammers starts if it quacks like a duck ... and another is ... well here ya go (sound on): http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/sounds/dirty_harry/limitations.wav
