Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On 20 May 2010 00:38, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: x264 don't think much of VP8, they think it's just not ready: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 OTOH, that may not end up mattering. Greg Maxwell thinks it's only about as much of a car crash as VP3 was when it was released: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-May/047795.html You should have seen what VP3 was like when it was handed over to Xiph.Org. The software was horribly buggy, slow, and the quality was fairly poor (at least compared to the current status). What it needs, of course, is a plugin for *current* browsers, more than the Chrome/Chromium dev channel. In any case - interesting times :-D - d.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 4:27 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 May 2010 00:38, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: x264 don't think much of VP8, they think it's just not ready: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 OTOH, that may not end up mattering. Greg Maxwell thinks it's only about as much of a car crash as VP3 was when it was released: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-May/047795.html You should have seen what VP3 was like when it was handed over to Xiph.Org. The software was horribly buggy, slow, and the quality was fairly poor (at least compared to the current status). What it needs, of course, is a plugin for *current* browsers, more than the Chrome/Chromium dev channel. In any case - interesting times :-D - d. Opera has already made a GStreamer plugin for VP8 and released it in their gstreamer git repository, and Firefox already has support integrated into the trunk. The real problem is getting libvpx included into distros. The buildsystem doesn't currently build shared libraries, only static ones. Yay for custom buildsystems... In any case, it looks like Fedora has hacked around that issue and will hopefully soon include it in the distro package lists.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
2010/5/20 Peter Beverloo pe...@lvp-media.com: Microsoft has announced playback support for VP8 in Internet Explorer 9[1] under the condition that one has to install a VP8 codec manually, albeit via inclusion in another program: In its HTML5 support, IE9 will support playback of H.264 video as well as VP8 video when the user has installed a VP8 codec on Windows. I think that's fairly significant. I don't. They're trying to make if you install it yourself, it'll work look like they're actually doing anything at all. But they're not, because the same applies already to Vorbis and Theora. If anything, they're just offering not to deliberately stop it from working. - d.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On Thu, 20 May 2010 17:55:42 +0800, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/20 Peter Beverloo pe...@lvp-media.com: Microsoft has announced playback support for VP8 in Internet Explorer 9[1] under the condition that one has to install a VP8 codec manually, albeit via inclusion in another program: In its HTML5 support, IE9 will support playback of H.264 video as well as VP8 video when the user has installed a VP8 codec on Windows. I think that's fairly significant. I don't. They're trying to make if you install it yourself, it'll work look like they're actually doing anything at all. But they're not, because the same applies already to Vorbis and Theora. If anything, they're just offering not to deliberately stop it from working. That is unfair. While I don't know precisely what the IE team is doing, hooking up things like canPlayType to give the correct reply depending on what is installed doesn't happen automatically. -- Philip Jägenstedt Core Developer Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On 20 May 2010 11:03, Philip Jägenstedt phil...@opera.com wrote: On Thu, 20 May 2010 17:55:42 +0800, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I don't. They're trying to make if you install it yourself, it'll work look like they're actually doing anything at all. But they're not, because the same applies already to Vorbis and Theora. If anything, they're just offering not to deliberately stop it from working. That is unfair. While I don't know precisely what the IE team is doing, hooking up things like canPlayType to give the correct reply depending on what is installed doesn't happen automatically. hmm, OK. I suppose they have to actually check it won't break anything. - d.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On Thu, 20 May 2010 17:34:49 +0800, Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ) ngomp...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 4:27 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 May 2010 00:38, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: x264 don't think much of VP8, they think it's just not ready: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 OTOH, that may not end up mattering. Greg Maxwell thinks it's only about as much of a car crash as VP3 was when it was released: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-May/047795.html You should have seen what VP3 was like when it was handed over to Xiph.Org. The software was horribly buggy, slow, and the quality was fairly poor (at least compared to the current status). What it needs, of course, is a plugin for *current* browsers, more than the Chrome/Chromium dev channel. In any case - interesting times :-D - d. Opera has already made a GStreamer plugin for VP8 and released it in their gstreamer git repository, and Firefox already has support integrated into the trunk. As it turns out Collabora also made plugins (unknown to us) and this is what is now in gst-plugins-bad. Still, Opera's matroskademux WebM changes and parts of our encoder/decoder will come to use. -- Philip Jägenstedt Core Developer Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 11:55, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/20 Peter Beverloo pe...@lvp-media.com: Microsoft has announced playback support for VP8 in Internet Explorer 9[1] under the condition that one has to install a VP8 codec manually, albeit via inclusion in another program: In its HTML5 support, IE9 will support playback of H.264 video as well as VP8 video when the user has installed a VP8 codec on Windows. I think that's fairly significant. I don't. They're trying to make if you install it yourself, it'll work look like they're actually doing anything at all. But they're not, because the same applies already to Vorbis and Theora. If anything, they're just offering not to deliberately stop it from working. - d. Microsoft showing interest in a codec they're not specifically participating in, different from their involvement in H264, is a good start. In their revised comments about HTML 5 video[1] they already stated that they would consider implementing other codecs if the industry reaches a consensus and is confident that the uncertainties are resolved. Their wording in the recent blog-post refers to an industry announcement rather than a Google announcement, which is why I think it's plausible to assume including the codec by default will be, partially, dependent on Apple's stance on it. As Philip already said, right now there simply are a number of uncertainties limiting the discussion to mere speculation. Let's hope more clearity will be available soon. Peter [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/05/03/follow-up-on-html5-video-in-ie9.aspx
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On 20 May 2010 17:55, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/20 Peter Beverloo pe...@lvp-media.com: Microsoft has announced playback support for VP8 in Internet Explorer 9[1] under the condition that one has to install a VP8 codec manually, albeit via inclusion in another program: In its HTML5 support, IE9 will support playback of H.264 video as well as VP8 video when the user has installed a VP8 codec on Windows. I think that's fairly significant. I don't. They're trying to make if you install it yourself, it'll work look like they're actually doing anything at all. But they're not, because the same applies already to Vorbis and Theora. If anything, they're just offering not to deliberately stop it from working. It is quite significant: before that announcement, H.264 was to be the only codec supported in video tags in IE9.⁰ Microsoft aren't intending to allow video to use system codecs generally for a bunch of reasons¹ (probably most notably around security), which has ruled native Theora in IE9 out for now. Adam ⁰ http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/29/html5-video.aspx ¹ http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/05/03/follow-up-on-html5-video-in-ie9.aspx
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Adam Harvey a...@adamharvey.name wrote: On 20 May 2010 17:55, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/20 Peter Beverloo pe...@lvp-media.com: Microsoft has announced playback support for VP8 in Internet Explorer 9[1] under the condition that one has to install a VP8 codec manually, albeit via inclusion in another program: In its HTML5 support, IE9 will support playback of H.264 video as well as VP8 video when the user has installed a VP8 codec on Windows. I think that's fairly significant. I don't. They're trying to make if you install it yourself, it'll work look like they're actually doing anything at all. But they're not, because the same applies already to Vorbis and Theora. If anything, they're just offering not to deliberately stop it from working. It is quite significant: before that announcement, H.264 was to be the only codec supported in video tags in IE9.⁰ Microsoft aren't intending to allow video to use system codecs generally for a bunch of reasons¹ (probably most notably around security), which has ruled native Theora in IE9 out for now. Adam ⁰ http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/29/html5-video.aspx ¹ http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/05/03/follow-up-on-html5-video-in-ie9.aspx Add to that the announcement that Adobe will ship VP8 in Flash and you can get a huge installed base of the codec in no time flat - hopefully it will somehow be possible to access the installed codec library from IE9 - bingo! Silvia.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On May 19, 2010, at 21:48 , Sir Gallantmon (ニール・ゴンパ) wrote: Google's patent license states that anyone that attempts to sue over VP8 will automatically lose their patent license. That's a huge deterrent. only to potential practitioners...not trolls :-( (i.e. non-practicing patent owners) AFAIR, the VC-1 codec didn't have that kind of clause, which caused the debacle that led to the VC-1 patent pool... I don't recall, but I would be surprised. This is a pretty common defensive clause. David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
[whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
From: David Gerard dger...@gmail.com Subject: [Wikitech-l] VP8 freed! To: Wikimedia developers, Wikimedia Commons Discussion List http://www.webmproject.org/ http://openvideoalliance.org/2010/05/google-frees-vp8-codec-for-html5-the-webm-project/?l=en http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Google-open-source-VP8-as-part-of-the-WebM-Project-1003772.html Container will be .webm, a modified version of Matroshka. Audio is Ogg Vorbis. YouTube is serving up .webm *right now*. Flash will also include .webm.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
James Salsman jsals...@talknicer.com schrieb am Wed, 19 May 2010 14:58:38 -0700: Container will be .webm, a modified version of Matroshka. Audio is Ogg Vorbis. You mean Vorbis. /pedantic ;) -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On 20 May 2010 00:34, Nils Dagsson Moskopp nils-dagsson-mosk...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: James Salsman jsals...@talknicer.com schrieb am Wed, 19 May 2010 14:58:38 -0700: Container will be .webm, a modified version of Matroshka. Audio is Ogg Vorbis. You mean Vorbis. /pedantic ;) *cough* x264 don't think much of VP8, they think it's just not ready: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 OTOH, that may not end up mattering. - d.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:38 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 May 2010 00:34, Nils Dagsson Moskopp nils-dagsson-mosk...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: James Salsman jsals...@talknicer.com schrieb am Wed, 19 May 2010 14:58:38 -0700: Container will be .webm, a modified version of Matroshka. Audio is Ogg Vorbis. You mean Vorbis. /pedantic ;) *cough* x264 don't think much of VP8, they think it's just not ready: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 OTOH, that may not end up mattering. - d. Given that the main reason against Theora was the fact that hardware devices supported baseline profile H.264 (which looks terrible compared to the other profiles), I think VP8 may be fine. VP8 already has hardware decoder chip support, so that isn't an issue. Patents aren't an issue, since Google has dealt with that. Nevertheless, Firefox already has support for it in the trunk, Opera released a labs build that adds a GStreamer plugin for WebM to their builds, and Chrome trunk added support for it. Adobe announced support for VP8 in a future version of Flash, and probably Silverlight will have it too. Whether they'll include complete WebM support is unknown, though.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
2010/5/20 Sir Gallantmon (ニール・ゴンパ) ngomp...@gmail.com: On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:38 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 May 2010 00:34, Nils Dagsson Moskopp nils-dagsson-mosk...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: James Salsman jsals...@talknicer.com schrieb am Wed, 19 May 2010 14:58:38 -0700: Container will be .webm, a modified version of Matroshka. Audio is Ogg Vorbis. You mean Vorbis. /pedantic ;) *cough* x264 don't think much of VP8, they think it's just not ready: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 OTOH, that may not end up mattering. - d. Given that the main reason against Theora was the fact that hardware devices supported baseline profile H.264 (which looks terrible compared to the other profiles), I think VP8 may be fine. VP8 already has hardware decoder chip support, so that isn't an issue. Patents aren't an issue, since Google has dealt with that. Apologies, but how has Google dealt with patents? They make the ones they bought from On2 available for free - which is exactly the same situation as for Theora. They don't indemnify anyone using WebM. However, I do appreciate that for any commercial entity having to chose between the patent risk on Theora and the one on WebM, it is an easy choice, because Google would join such a courtcase for WebM and their massive financial status just doesn't compare to Xiph's. ;-) Nevertheless, Firefox already has support for it in the trunk, Opera released a labs build that adds a GStreamer plugin for WebM to their builds, and Chrome trunk added support for it. Adobe announced support for VP8 in a future version of Flash, and probably Silverlight will have it too. Whether they'll include complete WebM support is unknown, though. I think with the weight that Google have in the market, they may well be able to push WebM through - in particular with the help of Adobe (ironically). We may yet see a solution to the baseline codec and it will be a free codec, yay! Cheers, Silvia.
Re: [whatwg] forwarded: Google opens VP8 video codec
2010/5/19 Silvia Pfeiffer silviapfeiff...@gmail.com 2010/5/20 Sir Gallantmon (ニール・ゴンパ) ngomp...@gmail.com: On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:38 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 May 2010 00:34, Nils Dagsson Moskopp nils-dagsson-mosk...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: James Salsman jsals...@talknicer.com schrieb am Wed, 19 May 2010 14:58:38 -0700: Container will be .webm, a modified version of Matroshka. Audio is Ogg Vorbis. You mean Vorbis. /pedantic ;) *cough* x264 don't think much of VP8, they think it's just not ready: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377 OTOH, that may not end up mattering. - d. Given that the main reason against Theora was the fact that hardware devices supported baseline profile H.264 (which looks terrible compared to the other profiles), I think VP8 may be fine. VP8 already has hardware decoder chip support, so that isn't an issue. Patents aren't an issue, since Google has dealt with that. Apologies, but how has Google dealt with patents? They make the ones they bought from On2 available for free - which is exactly the same situation as for Theora. They don't indemnify anyone using WebM. However, I do appreciate that for any commercial entity having to chose between the patent risk on Theora and the one on WebM, it is an easy choice, because Google would join such a courtcase for WebM and their massive financial status just doesn't compare to Xiph's. ;-) Google's patent license states that anyone that attempts to sue over VP8 will automatically lose their patent license. That's a huge deterrent. AFAIR, the VC-1 codec didn't have that kind of clause, which caused the debacle that led to the VC-1 patent pool...
