Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
2013-01-15 11:57, Steve Faulkner wrote: Can anyone point me to or provide use cases for untitled article and section elements? The example that first comes into my mind is a discussion forum where contributions (which would appear to match the article idea) can be posted, and are usually posted, without a title of any kind. A discussion has a title (subject), but individual contributions are basically just text, though in advanced systems they may contain markup. as in who are the potential consumers of document outlines with untitled sections? Oh. That's a different issue. This whole outline thing does not look very realistic. I have not seen much practical interest in it; the HTML5 Outliner add-on in Firefox is one of the few signs of interest, and it's fairly primitive. Yucca
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fiwrote: 2013-01-15 11:57, Steve Faulkner wrote: Can anyone point me to or provide use cases for untitled article and section elements? The example that first comes into my mind is a discussion forum where contributions (which would appear to match the article idea) can be posted, and are usually posted, without a title of any kind. A discussion has a title (subject), but individual contributions are basically just text, though in advanced systems they may contain markup. Me, too. The one came into my mind is blog comments, which are often coded using untitled articles. But personally I think that is wrong because every sectioning element should have a heading. Regards, Ian Yang
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:57:45 -, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.com wrote: Can anyone point me to or provide use cases for untitled article and section elements? those in which the heading is to be injected via script -- Bruce Lawson Open standards evangelist Developer Relations Team Opera http://dev.opera.com
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
2013-01-15 14:15, Ian Yang wrote: The one came into my mind is blog comments, which are often coded using untitled articles. But personally I think that is wrong because every sectioning element should have a heading. Using headings is generally a very good authoring principle, but there are exceptions. Small comments rarely benefit from titles (headings). A very different example is a novel. A novel is almost always divided into sections, and sections may have subsections (visually separated e.g. using extra empty space or maybe ***). The sections may or may not have title. Often they have just numbers, presented as titles like Chapter 1, so they are more or less pseudo-titles (and could be replaced by CSS-generated content). Subsections almost never have headings. So what a browser could do, with a novel that uses section, is to provide an outline of the structure, possibly so that along with numbers, there are short excerpts from the start of each section or subsection. Yucca
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 8:33 PM, Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fiwrote: 2013-01-15 14:15, Ian Yang wrote: The one came into my mind is blog comments, which are often coded using untitled articles. But personally I think that is wrong because every sectioning element should have a heading. Using headings is generally a very good authoring principle, but there are exceptions. Small comments rarely benefit from titles (headings). A very different example is a novel. A novel is almost always divided into sections, and sections may have subsections (visually separated e.g. using extra empty space or maybe ***). The sections may or may not have title. Often they have just numbers, presented as titles like Chapter 1, so they are more or less pseudo-titles (and could be replaced by CSS-generated content). Subsections almost never have headings. So what a browser could do, with a novel that uses section, is to provide an outline of the structure, possibly so that along with numbers, there are short excerpts from the start of each section or subsection. Yucca Imho, there is a reason for each sectioning element to have a heading. If a content doesn't need a heading, then it should not be coded using sectioning element. Because blog comments are coded using articles, at least their author names should be contained within h1s so that in the document outline they are presented clearly. For example, h1Mike Smith says/h1, or h1Commenter: Mike Smith/h1, or just h1Mike Smith/h1. Every section of a novel needs a heading, too. Otherwise in the document outline we will see a bunch of Untitled Sections. Kind Regards, Ian Yang
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:59:01 -, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.com wrote: bruce wrote: Can anyone point me to or provide use cases for untitled article and section elements? those in which the heading is to be injected via script Ok so in a a rendered page or outline? I don't understand the question sorry -- Bruce Lawson Open standards evangelist Developer Relations Team Opera http://dev.opera.com
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
bruce wrote: I don't understand the question sorry this example: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/377471/article.html results in this outline: what is the use of the untitle articles? Example of article use from HTML 5.1 spec Bacon on a crowbar Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE what is the use of the untitled articles? or of the 133 untitled articles on http://html5doctor.com/designing-a-blog-with-html5/ what is the use case for using article in this case over the use of other markup such as lists? what does it provide? regards Steve On 15 January 2013 12:59, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.com wrote: bruce wrote: Can anyone point me to or provide use cases for untitled article and section elements? those in which the heading is to be injected via script Ok so in a a rendered page or outline? -- Bruce Lawson Open standards evangelist Developer Relations Team Opera http://dev.opera.com
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:44:44 -, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.com wrote: what is the use of the untitled articles? or of the 133 untitled articles on http://html5doctor.com/designing-a-blog-with-html5/ what is the use case for using article in this case over the use of other markup such as lists? I can't answer for other doctors, but I see no advantage there (although I see no advantage to using lists, either). On my own blog, which also uses article for comments, I'm considering changing it from article comment by Fred on 12 Dec at 4.52 divcomment text/div /article into article h3Fred said on 12 Dec at 4.52/h3 divcomment text/div /article so there are are headings by which comments may be navigated, -- Bruce Lawson Open standards evangelist Developer Relations Team Opera http://dev.opera.com
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
thanks, makes more sense (i think) On 15 January 2013 14:08, Bruce Lawson bru...@opera.com wrote: On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:44:44 -, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.com wrote: what is the use of the untitled articles? or of the 133 untitled articles on http://html5doctor.com/designing-a-blog-with-html5/ what is the use case for using article in this case over the use of other markup such as lists? I can't answer for other doctors, but I see no advantage there (although I see no advantage to using lists, either). On my own blog, which also uses article for comments, I'm considering changing it from article comment by Fred on 12 Dec at 4.52 divcomment text/div /article into article h3Fred said on 12 Dec at 4.52/h3 divcomment text/div /article so there are are headings by which comments may be navigated, -- Bruce Lawson Open standards evangelist Developer Relations Team Opera http://dev.opera.com -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
2013-01-15 15:44, Steve Faulkner wrote: this example: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/377471/article.html results in this outline: what is the use of the untitle articles? Example of article use from HTML 5.1 spec Bacon on a crowbar Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE Untitled ARTICLE what is the use of the untitled articles? They indicate nesting, nothing more. It seems that the article element is being defined to suit the needs of displaying discussion threads, even making article elements oddly nested. When a contribution comments on another contribution, neither is logically part of the other. They are related, not nested. Blockquotes, on the other hand, may be nested, especially in e-mail messages in a particular style (quote the full message being replied to, after your own message). It is difficult to see what the idea of the example is, but it says: The article element is used for each post, to mark up the threading. I wonder if threads would deserve markup of their own, possible defined in somewhat more abstract terms. But nested lists would be more natural (and would create acceptable default rendering even in oldest browsers). or of the 133 untitled articles on http://html5doctor.com/designing-a-blog-with-html5/ what is the use case for using article in this case over the use of other markup such as lists? what does it provide? Not much, but there is generally little evidence of actual benefits from using article. In principle, though, you might want to use article inside a li or td element, for example, to indicate that the content is syndicatable. Regarding the use of heading markup, I don't see why it would be useful to turn author names, time stamps, and things like that (which are more of metadata than headings for the content) into headings. In an application that shows a document outline, you can extract part of the start of a section or article or snapshot on some other basis, if needed. Yucca
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
Hi Mathias, Comments on blog posts, or forum posts. how is it useful? what does the use of article provide in this case over other markup? why not section or list? who are the consumers of the semantics? regards SteveF On 15 January 2013 14:44, Mathias Bynens math...@qiwi.be wrote: On 15 Jan 2013, at 10:57, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.com wrote: Can anyone point me to or provide use cases for untitled article and section elements? Comments on blog posts, or forum posts. as in who are the potential consumers of document outlines with untitled sections? This is a different question, as there are more sectioning elements than just article and section. nav, for example. (See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html.) E.g. if there’s only a single nav element in the document, it means that element represents the primary navigation. As such there’s no need to title that section IMHO.
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Bruce Lawson bru...@opera.com wrote: . On my own blog, which also uses article for comments, I'm considering changing it from article comment by Fred on 12 Dec at 4.52 divcomment text/div /article into article h3Fred said on 12 Dec at 4.52/h3 divcomment text/div /article Hi, can I ask the purpose of the div in marking up the comment text? Is it just for styling/positioning? Cory
Re: [whatwg] use cases for untitled article and section elements
On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:08:33 -, Cory Sand yrocs...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, can I ask the purpose of the div in marking up the comment text? Is it just for styling/positioning? yes. -- Bruce Lawson Open standards evangelist Developer Relations Team Opera http://dev.opera.com
