Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On Saturday, 13 April 2013 at 05:10, Gwern Branwen wrote: Some recent musings reminded me that I never did find a good answer for an old question of mine: does anything predict whether an editor will lean towards deletionism? I'm waiting for extreme inclusionists or deletionists to produce some high-quality, not-at-all bullshit research that shows that failure to adhere to their preferred philosophy is something that shows a deep psychological tendency to rape kittens. That'll elevate the debate, I'm sure. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Mapping the Global Economy
There is a lack of economic knowledge in the world and this project attempts to solve this problem. I would love to see map out the global economy in a simplified format. Under a standardized structure, local/country economic data would be collected. Economists can help determine the most concise and educational way to present the data. Education and simplicity is the top goal of this project. This project is designed for anybody to be able to understand. Here is link to 'Economy of the United States' sample article. This exact format can be repeated for all 196 countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mcnabber091/Economy_of_the_United_States Here is a link to the project proposal page: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Economic_Map ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Mapping the Global Economy
Hi everyone, here are two draft wiki articles I created: Economy of U.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mcnabber091/Economy_of_the_United_States Economy of China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mcnabber091/sandbox My goal is to complete all 196 countries in this standardized format and have it become a Wikimedia project. This project could be further expanded into the local level. I am looking for volunteers and to help out. Here is a link for the project proposal page. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Economic_Map ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
Obviously toilet training is involved. That is the source of the anal personality. Need a study of toilet training of future editors... Fred Some recent musings reminded me that I never did find a good answer for an old question of mine: does anything predict whether an editor will lean towards deletionism? More specifically, it seems to me that attitudes towards articles take on almost emotional or moral dimensions, perhaps related to various psychological factors. Does anyone remember ever seeing any research touching on this? For example, perhaps someone surveyed editors, asking for self-identified preference and doing an inventory measuring personality factors like the OCEAN/Big Five? Of course I checked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deletionism_and_inclusionism_in_Wikipedia and Google but nothing particularly germane appears to have popped up besides random speculation and analogies to Adorno's famous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Authoritarian_Personality -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Tom Morris t...@tommorris.org wrote: I'm waiting for extreme inclusionists or deletionists to produce some high-quality, not-at-all bullshit research that shows that failure to adhere to their preferred philosophy is something that shows a deep psychological tendency to rape kittens. That'll elevate the debate, I'm sure. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Obviously toilet training is involved. That is the source of the anal personality. Need a study of toilet training of future editors... Thanks for your contributions, guys, they were really helpful and not at all completely useless and off-topic and exactly what I was hoping not to see. -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
If you want anecdotal evidence, I would say that someone's first encounter with AfD can set them firmly in one place on the spectrum, but that most people who stick around see their views evolve as they come to understand sources and the range of articles topics and various problems better. Whether there is an underlying predisposition, I don't know. I hope this was more helpful than the other replies you received! :-) On 4/13/13, Gwern Branwen gwe...@gmail.com wrote: Some recent musings reminded me that I never did find a good answer for an old question of mine: does anything predict whether an editor will lean towards deletionism? More specifically, it seems to me that attitudes towards articles take on almost emotional or moral dimensions, perhaps related to various psychological factors. Does anyone remember ever seeing any research touching on this? For example, perhaps someone surveyed editors, asking for self-identified preference and doing an inventory measuring personality factors like the OCEAN/Big Five? Of course I checked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deletionism_and_inclusionism_in_Wikipedia and Google but nothing particularly germane appears to have popped up besides random speculation and analogies to Adorno's famous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Authoritarian_Personality -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] deletionism/inclusionism?
This is not very helpful for someone trying to find assistance..I guess you think this is funny, but it really seems like a bunch of 8th grade middle-school boys. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Gwern Branwen gw...@gwern.net wrote: On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Tom Morris t...@tommorris.org wrote: I'm waiting for extreme inclusionists or deletionists to produce some high-quality, not-at-all bullshit research that shows that failure to adhere to their preferred philosophy is something that shows a deep psychological tendency to rape kittens. That'll elevate the debate, I'm sure. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Obviously toilet training is involved. That is the source of the anal personality. Need a study of toilet training of future editors... Thanks for your contributions, guys, they were really helpful and not at all completely useless and off-topic and exactly what I was hoping not to see. -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] deletionism/inclusionism?
This is not very helpful for someone trying to find assistance..I guess you think this is funny, but it really seems like a bunch of 8th grade middle-school boys. Sigmund Freud's theories are widely discredited, but do relate to messiness and excessive discipline. Fred On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Gwern Branwen gw...@gwern.net wrote: On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Tom Morris t...@tommorris.org wrote: I'm waiting for extreme inclusionists or deletionists to produce some high-quality, not-at-all bullshit research that shows that failure to adhere to their preferred philosophy is something that shows a deep psychological tendency to rape kittens. That'll elevate the debate, I'm sure. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Obviously toilet training is involved. That is the source of the anal personality. Need a study of toilet training of future editors... Thanks for your contributions, guys, they were really helpful and not at all completely useless and off-topic and exactly what I was hoping not to see. -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
What were you hoping to see? Obviously, either some sound peer-reviewed research displaying that deletionists suffer from deep-seated psychological problems that make them clinically unfit to work on a collaborative project; or some sound peer-reviewed research displaying that inclusionists suffer from some other, similarly severe, deep-seated psychological problems. I'm not sure which of the two you're fishing for, though. Cheers, David... On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 1:53 AM, Gwern Branwen gw...@gwern.net wrote: On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Tom Morris t...@tommorris.org wrote: I'm waiting for extreme inclusionists or deletionists to produce some high-quality, not-at-all bullshit research that shows that failure to adhere to their preferred philosophy is something that shows a deep psychological tendency to rape kittens. That'll elevate the debate, I'm sure. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Obviously toilet training is involved. That is the source of the anal personality. Need a study of toilet training of future editors... Thanks for your contributions, guys, they were really helpful and not at all completely useless and off-topic and exactly what I was hoping not to see. -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 4:22 PM, David Carson carson63...@gmail.com wrote: Obviously, either some sound peer-reviewed research displaying that deletionists suffer from deep-seated psychological problems that make them clinically unfit to work on a collaborative project; or some sound peer-reviewed research displaying that inclusionists suffer from some other, similarly severe, deep-seated psychological problems. I'm not 'hoping' to see anything. The absence of any correlations would be just as interesting because a lot of people seem to think the opposite. My basic observation here is that inclusionism/deletionism debates seem intractable, like religion and politics, which have long been correlated with a variety of mental and neurological observations and this deep-seated roots of those beliefs seems to explain why politics is so wasteful and damaging; hence the obvious question becomes, is inclusionism/deletionism another such case? But such findings would not tell us which side (or both) is the intractable party. Merely from a correlation you can't infer which side is right, since there's always two sides to a coin and you don't know whose beliefs are correct. (Suppose a survey found Republicans are more fearful of foreigners and foreign countries than Democrats; well, this is interesting but what does it actually show? Where can we get the ground truth on this question, what fact would we point to to prove that Republicans are wrong to fear foreigners/foreign-countries and allow us to draw a conclusion like 'Republican politics are driven by excessive fear'? If they were actually right to fear foreigners, then this finding would be better interpreted as 'Democrats pathologically optimistic / naive', and of course, both sides could be wrong on how dangerous foreigners were, in which case we might conclude both that Republicans are driven by excessive fear while those suffering from mindless optimism and naivete align with the Democrats. Just because two groups are arguing doesn't mean either one is right.) -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On 4/13/13, Gwern Branwen gw...@gwern.net wrote: My basic observation here is that inclusionism/deletionism debates seem intractable, like religion and politics, which have long been correlated with a variety of mental and neurological observations and this deep-seated roots of those beliefs seems to explain why politics is so wasteful and damaging; hence the obvious question becomes, is inclusionism/deletionism another such case? I think there is actually a sensible middle ground, which gets lost because those with more extreme views are more vocal. That is similar to politics in a way. And why would you think that inclusionism/deletionism debates are intractable? I thought the idea that such terms should be avoided (as they are divisive) was taking hold and gaining ground? Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On 13 April 2013 23:42, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: On 4/13/13, Gwern Branwen gw...@gwern.net wrote: My basic observation here is that inclusionism/deletionism debates seem intractable, like religion and politics, which have long been correlated with a variety of mental and neurological observations and this deep-seated roots of those beliefs seems to explain why politics is so wasteful and damaging; hence the obvious question becomes, is inclusionism/deletionism another such case? I think there is actually a sensible middle ground, which gets lost because those with more extreme views are more vocal. That is similar to politics in a way. And why would you think that inclusionism/deletionism debates are intractable? I thought the idea that such terms should be avoided (as they are divisive) was taking hold and gaining ground? I'm broadly an inclusionist, but by crikey there's a lot of utter, utter shit on the wiki. I've been nominating hopeless shite lately, for AFD or even just PROD. Not much, you understand. I can give it up any time. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: And why would you think that inclusionism/deletionism debates are intractable? I thought the idea that such terms should be avoided (as they are divisive) was taking hold and gaining ground? We're getting a bit far afield (I was just hoping for some citations to academic research I could look up), but since you asked... My own impression was that the debates were never resolved so much as the inclusionists driven out. Just look at the editor population numbers from the last 9 years, since 2006, or look at the article growth rates. Has the Foundation succeeded in keeping the editor population from dropping (never mind growing, or growing as fast as the Internet)? I've tracked some of the public goals and they've failed entirely. If you hear silence, it may be the silence of the content, happily cooperating as they beaver away at their particular articles - or it may be the silence of the grave. Why do you never hear complaints from inclusionists about Star Wars articles being deleted? Because so many were deleted that the involved editors finally bit the bullet and escaped to Wikia, and the only ones that are left are either ones onboard with rigid constrictive policies or have seen their efforts fail and learned to comply with the current regime. What happened with Star Wars could be said of many of the Wikias. (One of the more amusing Wikipedia conspiracy theories I've seen is that Wales Angela deliberately encouraged or let En slide towards deletionism because it provided a demand for his Wikia startup. I doubt they intended any such thing, but the effect was the same.) And after a while, people have enough run-ins with Wikipedians or hear about such run-ins that they learn Wikipedia is no longer friendly to a wide variety of topics and to not even try, so one then cannot even point to content-generating communities migrating off Wikipedia because the communities have learned to not use Wikipedia in the first place but use Wikia or any of the many other options available. Hence, an 'evaporative cooling' of participants (http://lesswrong.com/lw/lr/evaporative_cooling_of_group_beliefs/) as editors leave. -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
Why do you never hear complaints from inclusionists about Star Wars articles being deleted? Because so many were deleted that the involved editors finally bit the bullet and escaped to Wikia, and the only ones that are left are either ones onboard with rigid constrictive policies or have seen their efforts fail and learned to comply with the current regime. What happened with Star Wars could be said of many of the Wikias. (One of the more amusing Wikipedia conspiracy theories I've seen is that Wales Angela deliberately encouraged or let En slide towards deletionism because it provided a demand for his Wikia startup. I doubt they intended any such thing, but the effect was the same.) . -- gwern http://www.gwern.net Jimbo and Angela did not play a significant role in debates over inclusion and deletion; it just happens that people with a passion for a subject treasure every detail which makes for a good wikia wiki. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Jimbo and Angela did not play a significant role in debates over inclusion and deletion Indeed, that was my point. I don't think they did anything, or intended anything of the kind, but they chose not to intervene back when the gradual slide could have been stopped and so the ultimate effect was much the same. (Amusingly eventually leading to a nasty surprise for Jimbo with Mzoli's.) -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On 14 April 2013 01:29, Gwern Branwen gw...@gwern.net wrote: On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Jimbo and Angela did not play a significant role in debates over inclusion and deletion Indeed, that was my point. I don't think they did anything, or intended anything of the kind, but they chose not to intervene back when the gradual slide could have been stopped and so the ultimate effect was much the same. (Amusingly eventually leading to a nasty surprise for Jimbo with Mzoli's.) You're assuming they could have, and that this would have been worth doing. I don't think there's any reasonable basis for such an assumption, as it carries the implicit assumption that we understood Wikipedia well enough to make that sort of intervention, and that's definitely false. I still don't think we really know quite how this damn thing works, for all the millions of words wasted on the effort, and I don't consider the many incompatible hypotheses of how it does cohere to form evidence otherwise. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Jimbo and Angela did not play a significant role in debates over inclusion and deletion Indeed, that was my point. I don't think they did anything, or intended anything of the kind, but they chose not to intervene back when the gradual slide could have been stopped and so the ultimate effect was much the same. (Amusingly eventually leading to a nasty surprise for Jimbo with Mzoli's.) -- gwern http://www.gwern.net Once the herd got going, no one had much affect. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Jimbo and Angela did not play a significant role in debates over inclusion and deletion Indeed, that was my point. I don't think they did anything, or intended anything of the kind, but they chose not to intervene back when the gradual slide could have been stopped and so the ultimate effect was much the same. (Amusingly eventually leading to a nasty surprise for Jimbo with Mzoli's.) -- gwern http://www.gwern.net Once the herd got going, no one had much effect. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 8:34 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: You're assuming they could have, and that this would have been worth doing. I don't think there's any reasonable basis for such an assumption, as it carries the implicit assumption that we understood Wikipedia well enough to make that sort of intervention, and that's definitely false. Of course they *could* have tried. What we'll never know is if they would have succeeded, because they didn't try. Gardner and the Foundation seemed to eventually realize the problem, but eh, barn doors and horses. On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Once the herd got going, no one had much affect. Managing the herd is what leaders were for. -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
