[WikiEN-l] mailman3 and shutting down wikien-l

[David Gerard]

This list has been dormant for several years now - all traffic has
been multiply-cc'ed announcements.

As such, I'm going to recommend that with the mailman3 upgrade (which
is finally happening!), we shut and archive this list. Past posts
should still be available - this list is important historically, but
hasn't been a current communications channel for years.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimedia-l] Ray Saintonge has died

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Milos Rancic 
Date: 13 September 2016 at 17:00
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Ray Saintonge has died
To: Wikimedia Mailing List 


He died yesterday. As he was an important member of our community, I
think we should make something appropriate so he would be remembered.

--
Milos

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Future of this mailing list

[David Gerard]

On 13 August 2015 at 16:01, Charles Matthews
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:
 On 13 August 2015 at 15:08, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu
 wrote:

 Leave the list open! There are lots of important people subscribed, and you
 never know when an interesting conversation will pop up.

 Sounds as if we need a moderator willing to take over from David G.


Ehh, I'm not tired of the job - it's not actually work, the new
posters on mod thing works brilliantly to keep the spam and idiots
out - though if anyone else who can work Mailman wants to go on that's
fine too. I just think the list has run its useful course, and had
done a few years ago. I suppose it's not actually harming anything
being here.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Future of this mailing list

[David Gerard]

I think it's basically just me occasionally clearing the mod queue. I
concur - mothball this list.

On 13 August 2015 at 14:18, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:
 I've given this some thought, and pretty much come to the conclusion that
 it would be better to make this list historic rather than keep it open.
 This is a reflection on the fact that almost none of the subscribers seem
 to use it, that there are almost no posts to it, that it can easily become
 a black hole where a new subscriber is unaware that the likelihood
 they'll get a response to their email, or one that is accurate or
 actionable, is very small.

 In an ideal world, this list would be active and lively and chock full of
 interesting discussions. That's not happening at all.  It is better to
 consider this legacy communication and to lock it down (thus relieving
 the responsibilities of the probably one or two list admins who are
 actually moderating through the one real message out of thousands of spam
 messages).  It is obvious that this list is no longer serving the purpose
 it once had.  I'm not sure exactly where people are going to communicate
 now - there are lots of comments for a lot of blog posts, I understand
 facebook gets a fair number of responses, and some of the on-wiki
 noticeboard are quite active. But this list is no longer reaching the
 target community.

 Risker/Anne

 On 11 August 2015 at 17:16, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote:

 I don't see much harm in keeping this list alive in a low-activity state.

 Pine


 On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com
 wrote:

  Time to once again consider the future of this list and maybe also
  that of Wikipedia-L (as David suggested back in December)?
 
  I think I'm right in saying that apart from this list being used for
  some discussion of block appeals, nothing was posted here for all of
  June and July?
 
  https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/
 
  Yup. June 2015 and July 2015 join September 2014 as 'dead' months in
  the archives. :-)
 
  On 12/2/14, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
   On 2 December 2014 at 10:12, Amir E. Aharoni
   amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
  
   I kinda like the separation between cross-project and cross-language
   issues
   on Wikimedia-L and the discussion about English Wikipedia, but if
 nobody
   is
   interested in the existence of this list, I won't be very sad if it
 shut
   down.
  
  
   Despite the lengthy moderator list, I'm about it for actually
   bothering. Not that there's much to do.
  
   In the world of mailing lists, en:wp discussion tends to happen on
   wikimedia-l, if at all.
  
  
   I'd shut down Wikipedia-L first, however - that one is really dead,
  except
   occasional people who pop in by mistake every few months.
  
  
   +1
  
  
   - d.
  
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Future of this mailing list

[David Gerard]

On 2 December 2014 at 10:12, Amir E. Aharoni
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:

 I kinda like the separation between cross-project and cross-language issues
 on Wikimedia-L and the discussion about English Wikipedia, but if nobody is
 interested in the existence of this list, I won't be very sad if it shut
 down.


Despite the lengthy moderator list, I'm about it for actually
bothering. Not that there's much to do.

In the world of mailing lists, en:wp discussion tends to happen on
wikimedia-l, if at all.


 I'd shut down Wikipedia-L first, however - that one is really dead, except
 occasional people who pop in by mistake every few months.


+1


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] A bunch of nobodies

[David Gerard]

Add evidence of your insignificance here!

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_bunch_of_nobodies


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimedia-l] Wikidata vs Wikipedia

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
Date: 20 May 2014 08:33
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Wikidata vs Wikipedia
To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org,
WikiData-l wikidat...@lists.wikimedia.org, Pywikipedia discussion
list pywikipedi...@lists.wikimedia.org


Hoi,
Amir Ladsgroup has developed reports that show differences between the date
of birth and the date of death as known in the English Wikipedia and
Wikidata.

Such differences may be wrong in either Wikidata or Wikipedia. They are the
ones that need attention, they are the ones where sources makes a real
difference.

At this stage Amir is finalising the code. Given that this software can run
repeatedly, the results will change when the software l earns about changes
in either Wikidata or Wikipedia.

One practical question is where should these reports be located. It can be
in both Wikipedia and Wikidata. It is likely that many similar reports
reporting on different statements will become available.
Thanks,
 GerardM

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Ladsgroup/Birth_date_report/Conflict_with_Wikidata
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Ladsgroup/Death_date_report/Conflict_with_Wikidata
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/05/wikipedia-vs-wikidata-qualitative.html
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Re: [WikiEN-l] The Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is now well-known because it's been on Wikipedia for so long

[David Gerard]

On 28 March 2014 01:02, Richard Farmbrough rich...@farmbrough.co.uk wrote:
 On 08/03/2014 09:20, David Gerard wrote:

 I recall finding a list somewhere of article titles that got lots of hits
 but didn't have articles, but don't recall where. I may be misremembering of
 course. - d.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Most_missed_articles


Yeah, that's the list I was thinking of. Possibly someone should run a
report again ...


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] Help: 28 articles on women professors need infoboxes

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Fæ fae...@gmail.com
Date: 26 March 2014 16:36
Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] Help: 28 articles on women professors need infoboxes
To: UK Wikimedia mailing list wikimediau...@lists.wikimedia.org


Hi,

I have not played around with en.wp infoboxes for yonks. Would anyone
care to run through the list at
https://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Kings_College_London_Wikipedia_editing_workshop
and do a little bit of an informal review/copyedit and add infoboxes
where appropriate?

King's College has been kind enough to officially release portraits
for all of them, which I have now included, so the articles are
instantly more attractive.

Thanks,
Fae
--
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is now well-known because it's been on Wikipedia for so long

[David Gerard]

On 5 March 2014 22:04, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:

 Wikipedia's policies are irrelevant: This phenomenon has entered the
 lexicon, and is now well known simply due to its existence in Wikipedia.
 Since the phenomenon didn't have a well known name, I've been telling
 people about it for quite some time now, and it has recently enjoyed a huge
 surge in popularity, *due to its existence on Wikipedia*.


At least we killed analogue disc record before it entered English.


 The article should reinstated, a section concerning the unique nature of
 its notability should be added.


This argument doesn't seem to convince (though that does resemble
reasonable popularity). The fourth AFD notes the problem in this case:
really crappy sources. The sort of thing that would lead me to !vote
delete without prejudice.

I recall finding a list somewhere of article titles that got lots of
hits but didn't have articles, but don't recall where. I may be
misremembering of course.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is now well-known because it's been on Wikipedia for so long

[David Gerard]

On 8 March 2014 18:04, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:

 The reason the name stuck is that Baader-Meinhof is a weird name, and one
 would not expect to see it multiple times independently in short succession.
 Hence the name Baader-Meinhof phenomenon (which is also the name of a
 book) is analogous to onomatopoeia in that both represent the thing they are
 describing in some way - this is also similar to homoiconicity. It's a
 perfect name - much better than frequency illusion - and a substantial
 number of people now know it by this name, in part due to its longstanding
 and interesting history of existence on Wikipedia, which has advertised it
 to hundreds of thousands of people and generated tens of thousands of
 websites which use it by that name.
 The article should clearly stay!


Now you just need sources to this effect. There's always writing them ...


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Tools for repointing reference dead links to archive.org?

[David Gerard]

On 3 February 2014 14:31, Delirium delir...@hackish.org wrote:
 On 1/27/14, 1:10 AM, David Gerard wrote:

 What I need to do is (a) find all the links (b) add archiveurl=
 (something on archive.org, which seems to have captured the whole
 site) and archivedate= .

 This bot used to do something along those lines on en.wiki, but hasn't been 
 active in some months: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DASHBot/Dead_Links
 Perhaps it or something similar could be revived?



That looks like pretty much what I was after.

Though I ended up fixing a hundred-odd pages by hand for the case of
h-online.com :-)


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimedia-l] Mobile starting page design for Zero users

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Yuri Astrakhan yastrak...@wikimedia.org
Date: 6 December 2013 22:44
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Mobile starting page design for Zero users
To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org, mobile-l
mobil...@lists.wikimedia.org


Zero http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Zero team would like
to be more involved with the community, and discuss the functionality of
the Zero starting page.

For Zero users, when visiting m.wikipedia.org, we have to show a custom
start page tailored to the specific mobile provider. A typical startup page
has a custom banner, e.g. Free Wikipedia provided by [Company], and a
list of common languages in that country. The language of the page is
always set to the provider's default language.

A partner suggested that we add some additional text on the startup page,
as otherwise the page looks empty and not very inspiring. That text would
be an HTML blob, similar to the WWW page, but significantly smaller due to
most devices having a tiny screen. The text would be different depending on
the default language set by the provider, and could also differ between
various projects - Wikipedia vs Wikinews. The text would be stored on
translatewiki, with the overrides residing in the project's MediaWiki: page.

The text could be a one sentence welcome to {{SITENAME}}, it could be
some famous quote, a news item, word of the day, link to featured article,
or anything else the community may decide to post. See sample screenshots
for 
Androidhttp://media.crossbrowsertesting.com/users/47339/screenshots/full/zf03c69c9ea2c346cc28.png,
iPhonehttp://media.crossbrowsertesting.com/users/47339/screenshots/full/z219b703e8b6be6627b3.png,
iPadhttp://media.crossbrowsertesting.com/users/47339/screenshots/full/zf7c8f049d9edbfbab9a.png
)

What would be the best process to maintain that text? What other possible
customization would be needed to make this beneficial? Please keep in mind
that most of the users coming to this page will be directed there by the
carrier advertising Free Wikipedia, so a lot of new users.

P.S. If you think this discussion should be on
metahttp://meta.wikimedia.org/,
please let me know of the best location.
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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] New - ScotWiki Mailing List!

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Crockford, Ally a.crockf...@nls.uk
Date: 23 October 2013 19:43
Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] New - ScotWiki Mailing List!
To: wikimediau...@lists.wikimedia.org wikimediau...@lists.wikimedia.org


I wanted to announce the creation of a new mailing list for Scottish
Wikimedians. This is part of an attempt to bring together existing
Scottish Wikimedians and encourage new contributors to participate in
what we hope will be an increasingly active Wikimedia community in
Scotland.

With the WiR-ship at the National Library of Scotland, and the
possibility of more WiRs at other organisations in Scotland, there
should be many more events and much more activity throughout the
country, and we're hoping that this mailing list will lead to even
more growth.

Everyone is welcome to subscribe at
http://lists.wikimedia.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/scotwiki, and please
share with anyone you know who might be interested, or post on
relevant talk pages!

Cheers,
Ally



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[WikiEN-l] Why writing biographies (e.g. on WIkipedia) is hard

[David Gerard]

http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/09/writing-biography-in-the-age-of-wikipedia-removing-a-shadow-from-the-life-of-justice-tom-clark/


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Why writing biographies (e.g. on WIkipedia) is hard

[David Gerard]

I wasn't thinking so much in terms of Wikipedia itself, as the article
being about one of the big problems with bios anywhere, including on
Wikipedia. And particularly living bios.

On 23 September 2013 17:58, Newyorkbrad newyorkb...@gmail.com wrote:
 I've NPOV'd the paragraph, and I will try to locate additional sources on
 the subject.

 Newyorkbrad


 On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.netwrote:

 
 http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/09/writing-biography-in-the-age-of-wikipedia-removing-a-shadow-from-the-life-of-justice-tom-clark/
 
 
  - d.

 A edit by User:Awohlgemuth, who judging from his name seems to be Alex
 Wohl, author of the blog, seems to address this matter on the [[Tom C.
 Clark]] article.


 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_C._Clarkdiff=568609754oldid=568029457

 It does not seem to have been in the article prior to his edits, although
 I have not searched the history. The title of the blog seems to exploit
 our low reputation.

 Fred


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Re: [WikiEN-l] [Wikitech-l] The Damned Commons Image Deletion Cycle

[David Gerard]

On 5 August 2013 08:53, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote:

 I put wikien-l back in the cc list as these are non-technical proposals and
 would require ... I guess, commons process.  I don't know what the commons
 list is, and am not on it to be able to post to it.


commons-l, but the actual decisions are made on Commons.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

[David Gerard]

Rick Falkvinge has been writing a book, Swarmwise, on how the Pirate
Party organised. He's been posting it a chapter at a time to his blog.

You know how Wikipedia/Wikimedia has (or had) the meme that voting is
evil? This sets out why.

   
http://falkvinge.net/2013/07/01/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-six/

tl;dr: voting creates winners and losers, and losers are unhappy and disengage.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] [tangential] Why voting is evil

[David Gerard]

On 1 July 2013 18:18, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote:

 My approach for a very basic sanity check was to have three people agree
 on an idea as good for the swarm. One person can come up with ludicrous
 ideas, but I’ve never seen two more people agree on such ideas.
 Umm not consistent with beening involved in a project of any size.


It's not like he has an existence proof, like founding a successful
political party or being elected to parliament with this stuff. {{cn}}


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in the '80s (video)

[David Gerard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=tqD9OCa8ywQ

The title music is particularly frightening.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] So who's beta-testing the Visual Editor?

[David Gerard]

On 13 May 2013 05:38, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:

 As I think I commented elsewhere, the lack of references is a deal
 breaker for me, even for testing. A couple of times already I started
 making an edit with the VE, then went to add a reference...and hard to
 start over in the source editor.


I've been using it for typos.


 That said, I haven't seen any bugs. It looks really, really good.


Still getting pawns show up occasionally. (Reliable way to manifest
them: edit a list.)


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] So who's beta-testing the Visual Editor?

[David Gerard]

This is all the Visual Editor edits in en:wp:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChangestagfilter=visualeditor

It's not many. So please switch it on (you can still click Edit
source to do references and templates) and give it a good kicking. A
bug discovered now saves endless newbie pain later.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] So who's beta-testing the Visual Editor?

[David Gerard]

On 11 May 2013 22:08, Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:

 Mmmm... so I know that it's the English Wikipedia mailing list, but I
 suppose that this won't hurt:
 In the Hebrew Wikipedia several people tried the VisualEditor. I
 counted seven newly reported bugs as a result of this, and one
 reopened. There were also a few WONTFIXes, INVALIDs and dupes. Two of
 the new bugs were already fixed.
 I think that it's a reasonable response level to a brand new opt-in
 feature, which is barely alpha quality. It's not big, but it's much
 more than zero.


True. Testing early and often is particularly important for a
right-to-left language, since those are generally neglected in the
Latin alphabet computing world.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [EE] Notifications are now live on the English Wikipedia!

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Fabrice Florin fflo...@wikimedia.org
Date: 30 April 2013 21:22
Subject: [EE] Notifications are now live on the English Wikipedia!
To: WMF Editor Engagement Team e...@lists.wikimedia.org


Hello everyone,

I am happy to announce that we just deployed the first release of
Notifications today on the English Wikipedia!

Please try it out and let us know right away if you see any bugs or
issues -- or have comments or suggestions.

Notifications should start appearing in a red badge next to your name
on en.wikipedia.org very soon -- as well as on your archive page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Notifications

Before you test Notifications, we recommend that you go to your
preferences page, and enable all the notifications you want (be sure
to check email notifications, which are mostly 'opt-in' for current
users):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo

For general tips on how Notifications work, check our FAQ page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notifications/FAQ

For more tips on how to test notifications, check this testing page:

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Once you've tested Notifications, please join the discussion on this talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Editor_engagement/Echo

You are also welcome to post technical bugs directly on Bugzilla:

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Many thanks to Kaldari, Benny, Luke, Vibha, Oliver, Dario, Brandon,
Steven, Matthew, S Page, Ori, Aaron, Asher, Howie, Terry, Erik and
everyone else who made this product possible!

Enjoy,


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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[David Gerard]

On 26 April 2013 12:15, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:

 See also:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Category_intersection
 That's an old proposal, but is it becoming more feasible now?


As I vaguely recall, the main barrier to treating categories as tags
in the past was that MySQL was terrible at it and it would have
crippled performance. (I have no idea if MariaDB is better, but I have
no reason to think so.) Hence the workaround with sending the
functionality off to the toolserver. It's really annoying because
cats-as-tags would be perfect for Commons.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Tom Strickland - former United States Attorney for Colorado

[David Gerard]

On 15 April 2013 16:51, Latham, Brecke brecke.lat...@wilmerhale.com wrote:

 I am looking for a Wiki representative to assist in a change that needs to be 
 made to Tom Strickland's Wikipedia 
 pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Strickland. I need assistance because 
 he requested that his page be locked several years ago because outside 
 contacts were maliciously tampering with the content.
 He now needs a few edits to the page, but is not able since it has been 
 locked for content protection. Can you please let me know who can, or who I 
 can contact, to make the changes?


I've noted this at the BLP noticeboard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Tom_Strickland

A useful thing to do would be to go to the talk page, openly saying
who you are, and request changes there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tom_Strickland

That way, an uninvolved editor can review them.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 14 April 2013 11:44, Charles Matthews
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 Indeed. As is characteristic of false dichotomies.
 I was once asked by a prominent journalist where I stood on this. I
 replied that it was a boring question. And that once I had defined
 myself as deletionist on science topics, where we don't want cruft and
 pseudo, and inclusionist on humanities topics, where we really cannot
 always know what the academics will turn to next.


When people from TV come asking for a (quote) passionate deletionist -

http://www.mail-archive.com/wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg01448.html

- we're well past the time of being able to talk sensibly in such polar terms.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 14 April 2013 12:24, Charles Matthews
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 Mmm, I remember that mail and whom I suggested ...


I didn't see you in that thread ... who were you thinking of?


 I'm still quite deletionist on BLPs because of examples where our
 rules are too easy to game. I'm certainly not an anti-stub
 deletionist because that I see as destructive of future growth, and I
 improve many stubs these days. If passionate means nuance-free,
 which is a fair cop much of the time, then I agree with you.


I favour James Forrester and Thomas Dalton's arguments here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg01454.html

- that Wikipedia started as anything-goes, this was severely cut back
and we're now closer to a nuanced equilibrium.

- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 14 April 2013 13:41, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote:

 He certainly could have intervened in the arb com cases where I was
 vilified for my VfD comments, which I guess would be characterized as
 inclusionist.


I think the overarching problem was that you spent several years being
an unproductive pain in the backside. This tends to leave people less
inspired to generosity.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 14 April 2013 14:04, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote:

 As for the correlation of the oh shit graph to inclusionism/deletionism:
 A restriction of new article creation to registered users only was put in
 place in December 2005. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Wikipedia
 )
 In December 2005, there is a sharp spike in active editors, and a sharp
 decline in 1-year retention.  I would say that is at least partially a
 direct result.


This is an interesting observation I haven't seen before. How's our
new pages handling these days? How are the patrollers coping with the
firehose of shit?


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 14 April 2013 14:24, Charles Matthews
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 What needs to be
 explained more clearly is what took its place. I remember saying to
 Brianna Laugher at the time - she raised the point in Taipei, so was
 ahead of many of us - that people who like rules were displacing the
 old-school guys.


There's something about the whole process that's catnip for people who
desperately want nothing more from life than a real-world game of
Nomic. This was obvious by 2004, when we were still in many ways
working out from first principles how to write an encyclopedia.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 14 April 2013 14:21, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote:

 We have Wales to thank for the absurd Articles for Creation process (Is
 that still around?  I haven't checked in a long time.).  Seems to me that
 constitutes a significant role in debates over inclusion deletion.


Only by a stretch. I'd call it an argument against top-down
intervention. There is no such thing as rescue by magic, and berating
someone for failing to do the impossible strikes me as pointless.
Pretty much everything that's fucked up about Wikipedia is emergent
behaviour of people being a problem, and top-down magic can't possibly
scale to fix that. It can cripple it, though.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 14 April 2013 14:29, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 14 April 2013 14:21, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote:

 We have Wales to thank for the absurd Articles for Creation process (Is
 that still around?  I haven't checked in a long time.).  Seems to me that
 constitutes a significant role in debates over inclusion deletion.

 Only by a stretch. I'd call it an argument against top-down
 intervention. There is no such thing as rescue by magic, and berating
 someone for failing to do the impossible strikes me as pointless.
 Pretty much everything that's fucked up about Wikipedia is emergent
 behaviour of people being a problem, and top-down magic can't possibly
 scale to fix that. It can cripple it, though.


I'll also note that I suspect opening up article creation to anons
again will be impossible within the community - because they actually
wanted to lock it down even further, and the Foundation stepped in and
said no, keep it open.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 13 April 2013 23:42, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
 On 4/13/13, Gwern Branwen gw...@gwern.net wrote:

 My basic observation here is that inclusionism/deletionism debates
 seem intractable, like religion and politics, which have long been
 correlated with a variety of mental and neurological observations and
 this deep-seated roots of those beliefs seems to explain why politics
 is so wasteful and damaging; hence the obvious question becomes, is
 inclusionism/deletionism another such case?

 I think there is actually a sensible middle ground, which gets lost
 because those with more extreme views are more vocal. That is similar
 to politics in a way. And why would you think that
 inclusionism/deletionism debates are intractable? I thought the idea
 that such terms should be avoided (as they are divisive) was taking
 hold and gaining ground?


I'm broadly an inclusionist, but by crikey there's a lot of utter,
utter shit on the wiki. I've been nominating hopeless shite lately,
for AFD or even just PROD. Not much, you understand. I can give it up
any time.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Psychological correlates of deletionism/inclusionism?

[David Gerard]

On 14 April 2013 01:29, Gwern Branwen gw...@gwern.net wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 Jimbo and Angela did not play a significant role in debates over
 inclusion and deletion

 Indeed, that was my point. I don't think they did anything, or
 intended anything of the kind, but they chose not to intervene back
 when the gradual slide could have been stopped and so the ultimate
 effect was much the same. (Amusingly eventually leading to a nasty
 surprise for Jimbo with Mzoli's.)


You're assuming they could have, and that this would have been worth
doing. I don't think there's any reasonable basis for such an
assumption, as it carries the implicit assumption that we understood
Wikipedia well enough to make that sort of intervention, and that's
definitely false. I still don't think we really know quite how this
damn thing works, for all the millions of words wasted on the effort,
and I don't consider the many incompatible hypotheses of how it does
cohere to form evidence otherwise.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Larry Sanger's new project

[David Gerard]

On 14 February 2013 13:51, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 A commercial enterprise a bit like a wiki or a blog that's a way to
 crowdsource *high-quality* information.
 http://columbus.craigslist.org/eng/3614099241.html


Splash page up now:

http://infobitt.com/


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Larry Sanger's new project

[David Gerard]

On 21 February 2013 11:34, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote:

 Sounds like he want's to build a megaproject in a huge go, no evolutionary
 steps at all, and then see if anyone likes the behemoth of a constructed
 reality straight-jacket.


Well, it worked for Citizendium. (Completely planned out about a year
in advance, from the Slashdot editorial.)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Larry Sanger's new project

[David Gerard]

On 21 February 2013 19:00, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 More a failure of nerve; when he did not attract experts in the field he
 gave authority to 2nd rate people. Present company excepted, of course.


He attracted academics, then he and the constables drove them away.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Citizendium summarises the decline and
fall. Some Citizens have claimed it is inaccurate, but failed to
respond when asked to detail the inaccuracies; any corrections are of
course welcomed.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Lua rollout to en.wikipedia.org and a few others

[David Gerard]

COMPREHENSIBLE TEMPLATES!!!


-- Forwarded message --
From: Rob Lanphier ro...@wikimedia.org
Date: 15 February 2013 20:33
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Lua rollout to en.wikipedia.org and a few others
To: Wikimedia developers wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org,
wikitech-ambassad...@lists.wikimedia.org


Hi everyone,

We're planning to deploy Lua to a long list of wikis on Monday,
February 18, 23:00-01:00 UTC (stretching into Tuesday UTC), including
English Wikipedia.

Details here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Lua

Jan Kučera (User:Kozuch) has placed notifications on many of the
wikis.  Those notifications and general communications listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kozuch/Lua

This is a really exciting deployment for the projects.  We're really
looking forward to seeing the great things that people do with this,
and looking forward to making editing and previewing more responsive
for template-heavy pages.

Rob

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[WikiEN-l] Larry Sanger's new project

[David Gerard]

A commercial enterprise a bit like a wiki or a blog that's a way to
crowdsource *high-quality* information.

http://columbus.craigslist.org/eng/3614099241.html


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Larry Sanger's new project

[David Gerard]

On 14 February 2013 14:20, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 1:51 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 A commercial enterprise a bit like a wiki or a blog that's a way to
 crowdsource *high-quality* information.
 http://columbus.craigslist.org/eng/3614099241.html

 co-founder of Wikipedia and many others. Indeed.


Yes, his track record of success is singular.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Larry Sanger's new project

[David Gerard]

On 14 February 2013 15:15, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:

 That job ad is so awesome I had to save it for posterity. Work as a
 programmer slash executive assistant, for free! Be available 24 hours a day
 at a moments notice! Weekends off? Forget it! Mediocre candidates need not
 apply! Work for the *gasp* co-founder of Wikipedia! Solid, solid gold.


I think you're being unduly harsh here. His track record speaks for itself.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Larry Sanger's new project

[David Gerard]

On 14 February 2013 15:15, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:

 That job ad is so awesome I had to save it for posterity. Work as a
 programmer slash executive assistant, for free! Be available 24 hours a day
 at a moments notice! Weekends off? Forget it! Mediocre candidates need not
 apply! Work for the *gasp* co-founder of Wikipedia! Solid, solid gold.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/File:Capture_0e1fc921fd43d5424ccfe36c4554a06308c1cde3.png

(RW has a Capturebot for this sort of thing.)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Larry Sanger's new project

[David Gerard]

On 14 February 2013 15:49, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 He's not wrong; if it is possible to effectively mobilize the world's
 best experts in a major widely supported crowd sourcing project it could
 be awesome. Any Wikipedia editor knows from experience that from time to
 time you end up arguing with idiots and losing the argument by consensus.


The trouble is that Larry will be running it. The arc of Citizendium,
from launch sideways into the ground, was marked by Larry recruiting
lots of high-powered academics then driving them away within a few
months. (At which point the pseudoscientists and cranks moved in, and
a bit after that the featured article was a puff piece on homeopathy.)
He is demonstrably really, really terrible at community management.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] Victorian-era Dictionary of National Biography digitised on Wikisource

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com
Date: 12 February 2013 08:14
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Victorian-era Dictionary of National
Biography digitised on Wikisource
To: UK Wikimedia mailing list wikimediau...@lists.wikimedia.org


On 11 February 2013 20:24, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
 On 11 February 2013 18:25, Charles Matthews
 charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 WP:WP DNB, the WikiProject devoted to quarrying out the
 good stuff from the DNB,

 Excellent job.

 Is there a template for linking from Wikipedia articles to the
 corresponding DNB entry on Wikisource?

Yes, {{cite DNB|wstitle =}}, in which you place the Wikisource title,
such as Darwin, Charles Robert (DNB00), without the suffix. So {{cite
DNB|wstitle = Darwin, Charles Robert}}. That's for citations: plain
{{DNB}} works the same way for attribution of copied text.

Charles

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Skin / interface appearance

[David Gerard]

On 12 February 2013 17:24, Matthew Bowker matthewrbowker.w...@me.com wrote:

 I'm seeing some lost stylesheets in Firefox Nightly.  Is that what you were 
 describing?


Yeah. When the css goes, that'll be bits.wikimedia.org being flaky.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] If someone gave you the entirety of Wikipedia from 100 years in the future for only 10 minutes, what would you read?

[David Gerard]

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/18dcov/if_someone_gave_you_the_entirety_of_wikipedia/


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] If someone gave you the entirety of Wikipedia from 100 years in the future for only 10 minutes, what would you read?

[David Gerard]

On 12 February 2013 23:05, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:

 PS. You might find that the page(s) you chose to read had been
 protected for years, or was in the middle of an edit war. Or that the
 entire encyclopedia had been 'checked' and published and was
 'finished'? Would that be a cause for celebration or not? OK, I
 suppose this is all missing the point of the question...


It's interesting. If you were in 1890, and you got ten minutes' access
to an Encyclopedia Britannica from 1990 - what would you look up?


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Is this a trademark violation?

[David Gerard]

On 8 February 2013 13:47, Daniel R. Tobias d...@tobias.name wrote:

 I just ran into this Twitter account:
 https://twitter.com/Wikipedia411
 However, it is trademark law they are most clearly afoul of; despite


I understand WMF is on the case :-)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to write about things that were once notable?

[David Gerard]

On 6 February 2013 08:20, Charles Matthews
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:

 Pownce is clearly a footnote by now. One of WP's purposes is to host
 such footnotes. So the writing issue boils down to reducing froth to
 footnote coverage.


I went on a massive cleanup of [[OpenOffice]] recently. It had a lot
of stuff that was EXCITING AND CURRENT NEWS!! ... in 2005, when it was
an exciting project. Perhaps it will become exciting again when 4.0
comes out, and the press coverage will be more than reprints of the
press release ...


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to write about things that were once notable?

[David Gerard]

On 6 February 2013 18:46, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
 On 2/6/13, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 Nevertheless something that is never mentioned in a nonfiction book or
 journal article over 250 years could be said to have dropped from the
 canon of knowledge and could then be archived.

 Maybe, but I don't think you can generalise. You have to inspect each
 individual case. It *is* important that contemporary coverage exists
 as a check and balance to past coverage, but past coverage can provide
 historical context in other articles, even if it ultimately is
 insufficient to support a stand-alone article.


The real problem is that Wikipedia's sourcing rules *mostly* work
*most* of the time - they are not philosophically watertight, and
trying to treat them as if they were leads to silliness and
frustration. So I'm just expressing my frustration. And probably being
silly.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Another WP redesign

[David Gerard]

On 1 February 2013 10:05, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:

 yet another one requires JavaScript (though it has more features; check
 icons on top):
 http://toolserver.org/~magnus/redefined/?page=Barack_Obama


Looks nice! Feels a bit visually busy ... maybe not being used to it.
The languages dropdown seems a bit mystery-meat navigation to me -
perhaps head it Other languages like the Categories dropdown next
to it.

This page appears to break it:

https://toolserver.org/~magnus/redefined/?page=Factory%20Benelux%20discograpjhy


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Another WP redesign

[David Gerard]

On 1 February 2013 10:16, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 This page appears to break it:
 https://toolserver.org/~magnus/redefined/?page=Factory%20Benelux%20discograpjhy


Well, *that* link is a typo. This link loads the article:

https://toolserver.org/~magnus/redefined/?page=Factory%20Benelux%20discography

- but the tables are no longer sortable!


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Editor Engagement list

[David Gerard]

via Steven Walling: the internal team list, now a public list.

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Another WP redesign

[David Gerard]

On 29 January 2013 11:46, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote:

 * The header hits a common problem - treating read/talk/edit/history
 as four different interfaces to the same page, while they're really
 three interfaces to the page (read/edit/history) and one link to
 another page (talk) with its own three interfaces.


I think that may be deliberate, per comment here from the designer:
But maybe more people should talk or edit. :)

http://dribbble.com/shots/900712-Wikipedia-redesign-header-colors

I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to this
thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Another WP redesign

[David Gerard]

On 29 January 2013 12:10, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 I couldn't find a way to comment to the designer to point them to this
 thread or to the WP redesigns page ... can anyone else work out
 Dribble's exquisitely-designed interface?


I found my way to the designer's website and emailed him about the
redesigns page and this thread. He says thank you :-)


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Another WP redesign

[David Gerard]

I found this one visually appealing:

http://dribbble.com/wirwoluf/projects/104912-wikipedia-redesign

No doubt others will now take it apart :-)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Another WP redesign

[David Gerard]

On 28 January 2013 22:17, stevertigo stv...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is an ideal column width for readability, which is well understood in
 newspaper publishing but less so in books and even less so on the web. I
 think its around 10 words.


Trouble there is that newspapers are portrait and have pages, but
screens are usually landscape and (the important bit) stretch
indefinitely vertically. A good example of the problem with doing it
like a newspaper is https://sites.google.com/site/sophieinnorthkorea/
- brilliant article, but on a laptop screen the layout is just really
confusing.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Another WP redesign

[David Gerard]

On 28 January 2013 21:59, Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:

 One thing this and previous designs agree upon is to use a three-column
 layout for content. On today's wide screens, reduced line length for the
 main text should improve readability, and still use the side columns
 pragmatically; it seems the TOC usually goes to the left, and infoboxes to
 the right.


If we detect a wide screen (I have a 1920x1200 at work), going at
least two-column would definitely be a good idea.

Is anyone working on responsiveness in Vector?


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Strawpoll on new RFC on Requests For Adminship

[David Gerard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship#New_RfC


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Reference-handling tools?

[David Gerard]

So I dived in with the editorial axe to fix up the horrible
[[OpenOffice]]. It's almost not awful now, so that's nice.

Like many such articles, it has a couple of hundred references. A lot
of these are bare URLs (mostly because I didn't fill out the entire
{{cite}} template) and there may or may not be duplicates.

Now, we have computers to handle this sort of thing. Is there a list
of useful tools for cleaning up references other than by hand?


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Reference-handling tools?

[David Gerard]

On 1 January 2013 11:57, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 Now, we have computers to handle this sort of thing. Is there a list
 of useful tools for cleaning up references other than by hand?


Looks like the mother lode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Citation_tools


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia in albanian

[David Gerard]

On 25 December 2012 08:21, Muhamed Mehmeti medi.mehm...@hotmail.com wrote:

 With all respect that Ihave for your valuable site,and with no intention to 
 misrespect any other language,I ask you why is missing wikipedia in albanian 
 since you have more readers among albanians,than bosnians,macedonians,and 
 many others cause we are as you know majority in two countries,Albania and 
 Kosovo.I hope you will cooperate with somebody in the future about this 
 issue,best regards


https://sq.wikipedia.org

:-)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] List admin

[David Gerard]

On 24 December 2012 12:46, Richard Farmbrough rich...@farmbrough.co.uk wrote:

 Can a list admin please investigate why I'm not receiving anything from this
 list?


Because there hasn't been any.

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2012-December/thread.html


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimedia-l] Alpha version of the VisualEditor now available on the English Wikipedia

[David Gerard]

Experienced editors who are feeling intrepid ...


-- Forwarded message --
From: James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org
Date: 12 December 2012 03:30
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Alpha version of the VisualEditor now available
on the English Wikipedia
To: Wikimedia developers wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org,
wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org


TL;DR: Today we are launching an alpha, opt-in version of the
VisualEditor[0] to the English Wikipedia. This will let editors create
and modify real articles visually, using a new system where the
articles they edit will look the same as when you read them, and their
changes show up as they type enter them — like writing a document in a
word processor. Please let us know what you think[1].


Why launch now?

We want our community of existing editors to get an idea of what the
VisualEditor will look like in the “real world” and start to give us
feedback about how well it integrates with how they edit right now,
and their thoughts on what aspects are the priorities in the coming
months.

The editor is at an early stage and is still missing significant
functions, which we will address in the coming months. Because of
this, we are mostly looking for feedback from experienced editors at
this point, because the editor is insufficient to really give them a
proper experience of editing. We don’t want to promise an easier
editing experience to new editors before it is ready.

As we develop improvements, they will be pushed every fortnight to the
wikis, allowing you to give us feedback[1] as we go and tell us what
next you want us to work on.


How can I try it out?

The VisualEditor is now available to all logged-in accounts on the
English Wikipedia as a new preference, switched off by default. If you
go to your “Preferences” screen and click into the “Editing” section,
it will have as an option labelled “Enable VisualEditor”).

Once enabled, for each article you can edit, you will get a second
editor tab labelled “VisualEditor” next to the “Edit” tab. If you
click this, after a little pause you will enter the VisualEditor. From
here, you can play around, edit and save real articles and get an idea
of what it will be like when complete.

At this early stage in our development, we recommend that after saving
any edits, you check whether they broke anything. All edits made with
the VisualEditor will show up in articles’ history tabs with a
“VisualEditor” tag next to them, so you can track what is happening.


Things to note

Slow to load - It will take some time for long complex pages to load
into the VisualEditor, and particularly-big ones may timeout after 60
seconds. This is because pages have to be loaded through Parsoid which
is also in its early stages, and is not yet optimised for deployment
and is currently uncached. In the future (a) Parsoid itself will be
much faster, (b) Parsoid will not depend on as many slow API calls,
and (c) it will be cached.

Odd-looking - we currently struggle with making the HTML we produce
look like you are used to seeing, so styling and so on may look a
little (or even very) odd. This hasn't been our priority to date, as
our focus has been on making sure we don't disrupt articles with the
VisualEditor by altering the wikitext (correct round-tripping).

No editing references or templates - Blocks of content that we cannot
yet handle are uneditable; this is mostly references and templates
like infoboxes. Instead, when you mouse over them, they will be
hatched out and a tooltip will inform you that they have to be edited
via wikitext for now. You can select these items and delete them
entirely, however there is not yet a way to add ones in or edit them
currently (this will be a core piece of work post-December).

Incomplete editing - Some elements of complex formatting will
display and let you edit their contents, but not let users edit their
structure or add new entries - such as tables or definition lists.
This area of work will also be one of our priorities post-December.

No categories - Articles' meta items will not appear at all -
categories, langlinks, magic words etc.; these are preserved (so
editing won't disrupt them), but they not yet editable. Another area
for work post-December - our current plan is that they will be edited
through a metadata flyout, with auto-suggestions and so on.

Poor browser support - Right now, we have only got VisualEditor to
work in the most modern versions of Firefox, Chrome and Safari. We
will find a way to support (at least) Internet Explorer post-December,
but it's going to be a significant piece of work and we have failed to
get it ready for now.

Articles and User pages only - The VisualEditor will only be enabled
for the article and user namespaces (so you can make changes in a
personal sandbox), and will not work with talk pages, templates,
categories, etc.. In time, we will build out the kinds of specialised
editing tools needed for non-articles, but our focus has been on
articles.

Re: [WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault

[David Gerard]

On 16 November 2012 14:38, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes, but we must not forget that PR people are not the only people who use
 Wikipedia to do things wrong. By operating the completely open system we
 do, we enable *anyone* to do wrong, be they PR or staff working for a
 company, or a company's detractors.
 The community is responsible for managing Wikipedia. And whether Wikipedia
 is easy or difficult to abuse is the community's responsibility.


This still has nothing to do with the actual point of the thread. You
are knowingly derailing the thread to push your personal hobby horses.
Again.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault

[David Gerard]

Yet another PR company busted:

  
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/9671471/Finsbury-edited-Alisher-Usmanovs-Wikipedia-page.html
  http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/telecoms/article3597035.ece
(you can read the article text in View source)

The industry response? An apparently unanimous our bad behaviour is
totally Wikipedia's fault:

  
http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/1159206/pr-industry-blames-cumbersome-wikipedia-finsbury-editing-issue/

Guys, this really doesn't help your case.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault

[David Gerard]

On 12 November 2012 14:56, Charles Matthews
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:
 On 12 November 2012 13:54, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote:

 We won't win a moral argument; they are breaking the social contract of a
 website. We regularly defame people.

 http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/report-usmanov-pr-firm-tweaked-wikipedia-entry/471315.html
 is interesting to read in this context. The moral side of whitewashing
 a biography ahead of a stock market flotation is fairly elusive.


Indeed. I urge Thomas to go grab a copy of the Times today. If only
articles this well-written concerning Wikipedia were more likely to be
read by the people on the Internet who would be most interested in
them ...


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Yet another PR company busted ... apparently it's all our fault

[David Gerard]

On 12 November 2012 15:45, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote:

 Note, in other words, that the defence of the PR editing here is
 entirely deflection

 To an extent.
 It also represents frustration along the lines of: whenever one of us does
 a bad thing we get lambasted in the news, but when they do a bad thing it
 gets no traction or notice


Note that PR Week seems to have avoided asking for comment from CIPR,
who put out a statement on the matter with WMUK joining in:

http://newsroom.cipr.co.uk/cipr-responds-to-reports-of-rlm-finsbury-editing-wikipedia-pages-for-alisher-usmanov/

So at least it's not actually unanimous.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Improving dialogue between editors and tech people

[David Gerard]

On 26 October 2012 09:25, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com wrote:

 If a million
 dollars of the annual IT budget was set aside for projects that the
 community could suggest and prioritise via a page on meta, then the
 relationship between IT and the community would be transformed, as would be
 the project.


+1

Projects other than Wikipedia might get the slightest attention too.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimedia-l] The new narrowed focus by WMF

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com
Date: 18 October 2012 13:48
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] The new narrowed focus by WMF
To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org


Hi

Sue Gardner started working on this document on Meta a couple of weeks ago
- http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sue_Gardner/Narrowing_focus The
document outlines some rather big changes in the priority for WMF and
future responsibilities it will agree to keep. I am surprised by how little
attention this is getting from the larger community. There are comments but
mostly from the same individuals on Meta, little to none from some of the
most active voices and the larger English Wikipedia community.

This is the new direction being considered by the WMF, to basically abandon
or cut back on majority of activities from the last few year. Here are some
points-
1) No more Fellowships.
2) No more direct work in the developing markets (aka Global South- India,
Brazil, MENA)
3) No more support for International events, and cutting back on Wikimania

Instead of these, things like Editor engagement, Mobile and FDC/grant
making are being made priorities for WMF in the future. A large majority of
editors have had no interaction with grants and are unlikely to have so
with FDC as well, same with some of the mobile initiatives like Wikipedia
Zero which are limited to certain developing markets. A lot of these
changes will have a lasting impact, its not just relevant to those
interested in governance issues. Some of the implications are - Fellowships
would be removed all together, little to no spending on Hackathons,
possibly GLAM camps and other international events all together, less
spending on Wikimania and scholarships, the work in India and Brazil will
be moved away from WMF completely for a partner organization to take over
with a grant from WMF. If you do find some time, please consider taking a
look and commenting on these developments before they are approved.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sue_Gardner/Narrowing_focus

Regards
Theo

The document has some interesting quotes -

The Wikimedia Foundation is not a think tank or a research institute.
We're not an advocacy organization or a lobbyist, and our core mission
isn't to keep the internet free and open. We are not a general educational
non-profit. (We are a website, or set of sites, and everything we do needs
to be understood through that lens.) We don't just reactively support the
community—responding to requests from editors and doing what they ask us
to do. Our purpose isn't to provide MediaWiki support for third parties
(but it's in our interest to ensure that a healthy third party ecosystem
develops around MediaWiki). We're not, ourselves, content creators. Our
purpose is not to ensure the chapters grow and develop, nor is it to
support the chapters in their growth and development: rather, chapters are
our partners in supporting editors and other content creators.

The Wikimedia Foundation is not the only fish in the sea of free knowledge;
not everything that needs to be done must be done by the Wikimedia
Foundation, and it's not our job to do work that other individuals or
entities are better positioned or mandated to do, however important that
work may be. When we try to do work that more properly belongs to other
individuals or groups, we imperil our ability to get our own core work
done, and we arguably make it less possible for other entities to do what
they're supposed to be doing.
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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] Page Curation launch on English Wikipedia

[David Gerard]

Special:NewPagesFeed is fantastic, by the way. Click on an article and
see what you get.


-- Forwarded message --
From: Fabrice Florin fflo...@wikimedia.org
Date: 26 September 2012 02:02
Subject: [Wikitech-l] Page Curation launch on English Wikipedia
To: wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org, wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org


Hi folks,

I am happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has just launched
Page Curation, a new suite of tools for reviewing articles on
Wikipedia.

Current page patrol tools like Special:NewPages and Twinkle can be
hard to use quickly and accurately, and have led to frustration for
some users. Page Curation aims to improve that page patrol experience
by making it faster and easier to review new pages, using two
integrated tools: the New Pages Feed and the Curation Toolbar.

Read the Page Curation announcement on our blog:
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/09/25/page-curation-launch/

To learn more, visit our introduction page:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Page_Curation/Introduction

If you are an experienced editor, please give Page Curation a try:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:NewPagesFeed

We are also holding IRC office hours on Wednesday, September 26 at 4pm
PT (23:00 UTC), during which we will be happy to answer any questions
you may have. Please report any issues on our talk page or to our
Community Liaison, Oliver Keyes oke...@wikimedia.org.

A number of patrollers have already started using Page Curation, and
we hope that more curators will adopt this new toolkit over time. A
'release version' was deployed on the English Wikipedia on September
20, 2012, and we plan to make it available to other projects in coming
weeks.

This feature was created in close collaboration with editors. We would
like to take this opportunity to thank all the community members who
patiently guided our progress over the past few months. This includes
folks like Athleek123, DGG, Dori, Fluffernutter, Logan, The Helpful
One, Tom Morris, Utar and WereSpielChequers, to name but a few. We are
deeply grateful for your generous contributions to this project!

We designed Page Curation to offer a better experience, by making it
easier for curators to review new pages and by providing more feedback
to creators so they can improve Wikipedia together.

We hope that you will find this new tool useful. Enjoy!



Fabrice Florin
Product Manager, Editor Engagement Team
Wikimedia Foundation
User:Fabrice Florin (WMF)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editor_Engagement

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Re: [WikiEN-l] VIP Treatment

[David Gerard]

On 14 September 2012 19:39, Matthew Jacobs sxeptoman...@gmail.com wrote:

 I never claimed it was a new idea. I'm aware various versions are brought
 up, though people often try to tinker with it and end up making it more
 complicated than it needs to be. I was asked what I think would help fix
 WP's issues, and I answered.


No, you brought it up in the context of the present discussion, but
you have supplied no evidence whatsoever that it is relevant to the
case there in the subject line - you've just repeatedly asserted it
will be a wonderful thing. Assertion is not enough, however.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] VIP Treatment

[David Gerard]

On 12 September 2012 16:50, Matthew Jacobs sxeptoman...@gmail.com wrote:

 One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as representative
 of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as being
 dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
 portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective at
 changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
 protecting territory than having accurate information.


I think that's a bit of an inside view. The outside world can't tell
an admin from a non-admin, there aren't generally little tags on
people's sigs. So the problem is more general dickishness, not
specifically admin dickishness.

As far as I can tell, outsiders like to have someone central to
approach, e.g. the email address.

(I vaguely understand someone gave Roth/his biographer the wrong
answer, i.e. needing a secondary source rather than a referenceable
self-statement. That's a different problem, of course.)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] VIP Treatment

[David Gerard]

On 12 September 2012 17:16, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote:

 I figured out where; there is also UTRS (note the U) which is
 a separately maintained support tool (staffed by English Wikipedia admins)
 for  requesting unblocks.
 We probably need to look into how people are filtered to these things.
 (I also am not sure why we have UTRS over OTRS, and why the participants
 are not told to pass such issues onto OTRS who are more experienced in
 handling them).


Roth's biographer emailed this UTRS? Aaargh.

(Just spoke to someone from the Sunday Times about the Roth issue. I
characterised it as a series of miscommunications and an instance of
the general problem of people not knowing how to approach Wikipedia
about problems in an article about them. I did note a couple of times
that we were discussing the problem intensely at length, trying to
work out how we could do better next time, and that we don't yet have
an elegant solution to the general problem. Hopefully some of that
will make it to print.)


-d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] VIP Treatment

[David Gerard]

On 12 September 2012 18:32, Jim Redmond j...@scrubnugget.com wrote:

 For what it's worth, this is not just a VIP behavior. Most people assume
 that Wikipedia has centralized control over content, and they want Someone
 In Charge to fix things for them. (cf. all the people who e-mail Jimbo
 asking him to make changes, or the people who volunteer for OTRS because
 they want to fix errors on pages) It's difficult to correct these
 assumptions, even after pointing out the big edit tab at the top of
 nearly every page.


And when they *do* see the edit tab, we get a Grant Shapps incident ...


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem

[David Gerard]

On 11 September 2012 09:13, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could we get an official statement to the effect that third-party censorship 
 controls such as this are contrary to the clear and explicit wishes of the 
 Wikipedia communities and Foundation that content decisions be an internal 
 and openly decided matter?
 It is no more appropriate for Wikipedia to be so filtered by those guys than 
 Fox News.


I think paying any attention to Sanger or Fox News would constitute
feeding the troll.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] VIP Treatment

[David Gerard]

On 11 September 2012 17:05, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 It's a new topic. Addresses the general question rather than rehashing Roth.


Correct. When the topic changes substantially, the subject line should
change. (wikien-l has been very bad for this in the past.)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] insanely stupid thing to post

[David Gerard]

On 8 September 2012 14:21, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote:

 When I  sent a post I get a message that it was being held for moderation;
 then this gets posted.
 Is there something one does to be unmoderated?


Everyone starts moderated. I clear the mod queue each morning and
unmoderate the non-spammers. You're unmoderated now :-)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling

[David Gerard]

On 9 September 2012 22:20, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote:

 I sense the raised (ironic)  eyebrow in this question and since you know
 the answer, I need not tell you,


I think it was a genuine question, and one I had too.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] BBC article on Roth novel and Wikipedia article

[David Gerard]

On 8 September 2012 13:22, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:

 I noticed that the article makes the (very common) error/assumption
 that administrators exercise some sort of editorial control, when (in
 principle), it is editors that exercise editorial control (when the
 editorial process works, that is). Do those dealing with Wikipedia
 publicity ever try and correct this misunderstanding, or is it
 near-impossible to get the distinction across to journalists?


It's near-impossible. The BBC didn't contact anyone for comment,
either; the article is strictly ex-culo.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] BBC article on Roth novel and Wikipedia article

[David Gerard]

On 8 September 2012 13:48, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 That is the sort of thing that happens in a monarchy like England or
 North Korea, idiots in charge... something that really pissed off George
 Washington.


Fred, that's really an insanely stupid thing to post.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] SEARCHING FOR MARK ANDREW GREEN

[David Gerard]

On 28 August 2012 12:59, Wyatt Lucas darthyut...@gmail.com wrote:

 As a new user of the Wikipedia it would be my humble request for you to link 
 me up with my long lost friend, mentor and high school teacher who taught me 
 together with his wife Sue green while they were here in Kenya on the world 
 teach program

 I don't quite understand; is he a Wikipedia user? If not, I don't see any 
 relevance to this mailing list.


I wasn't sure either, but I let it through on the off-chance someone
here knows what it's about and could help.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] Mozilla teams up with Wikimedia UK for an Editathon - 18 August, London

[David Gerard]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Daria Cybulska daria.cybul...@wikimedia.org.uk
Date: 30 July 2012 09:45
Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] Mozilla teams up with Wikimedia UK for an
Editathon - 18 August, London
To: UK Wikimedia mailing list wikimediau...@lists.wikimedia.org


Dear All,

Mozilla UK has been supportive to Wikimedia UK and since they opened
their Mozilla Spaces venue, they were keen that we use it needed for
events. What we realised is that some of the articles relating to
Mozilla, Firefox etc. in Wikipedia are not quite of the high standard
they could be. And so we thought it would be a neighbourly thing to do
to have a Mozilla-related Editahton - the aim would be to turn a
list of about 15 Mozilla-related articles into content perhaps worthy
of being a Good Article.

The sprint will be on Saturday 18 August, starting at 12PM at the
Mozilla offices (London WC2N 4AZ). Lunch and snacks will be provided,
as will Mozilla people who can be consulted regarding good sources for
information. Do come along and help our our free culture colleagues
:-)

For more info and to sign up please visit
http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Editathon
You can also email me with any questions.

Many thanks,
Daria

--
Daria Cybulska - Events Organiser, Wikimedia UK
+44 (0) 207 065 0994
+44 7803 505 170
-- 
Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal
control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.

Wikimedia UK is the operating name of Wiki UK Limited, a Company
Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No.
6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor,
Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United
Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia
movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation
(who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] Mozilla teams up with Wikimedia UK for an Editathon - 18 August, London

[David Gerard]

On 30 July 2012 14:49, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:

 PPS. It strikes me that what I said here is better said on the
 wikimediauk-l mailing list. Is it possible to subscribe to that
 without having joined WM-UK?


Yeah, it's just an ordinary Wikimedia mailing list. For Wikimedians
in the UK or interested in the UK, not necessarily WMUK members
exclusively. Though for obvious reasons much of it is about WMUK
stuff.

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Categorisation by gender

[David Gerard]

On 18 July 2012 10:47, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote:

 I remember it being referred to many years ago as long-standing
 practice, but I've dug around a bit in the discussion archives and
 can't seem to pin it down. It's probably pre-2004, maybe even pre-2003
 - anyone remember?


As with almost all our category system, it's basically ad hoc. I
suggest if you can propose something not insane to relevant
wikiprojects and are prepared to do the bot work yourself, you can
have endless fun clicking save in AWB for a few hours.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Central location for article content queries and requests

[David Gerard]

On 3 July 2012 12:27, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 That would have been Wikipedia:Content noticeboard However, hardly anyone
 used it or monitored it, so it was a neglected corner. We need central
 places which are used and monitored even if the stuff on them is not
 finely differentiated. If it is brought back it would need to be more
 effective.


This would have been the right place for corporate editors too. Looks
like the bottleneck is people who care enough to watch it.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Central location for article content queries and requests

[David Gerard]

On 3 July 2012 13:11, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:

 I suppose there is some obscure section of OTRS that does that already.
 Not that even someone who has OTRS access could find the stovepipe.


I thought there was a boilerplate response on content issues (other
than legal or BLP) that said so fix it.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Wikipedia as part of a social media strategy for hotels

[David Gerard]

http://www.hospitalitynet.org/news/4056585.html

I suspect we may have (how do I put this) an opportunity to be helpful
to an influx of newbies with not-so-good articles in need of
improvement.

(Is there a good place on-wiki to note such endeavours? One of the VPs?)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Current consensus on PR editing?

[David Gerard]

On 13 June 2012 14:14, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 I ask because next Wednesday I will be the Wikipedian at an episode of
 the CIPR TV webcast[1]. Basically a podcast with a camera. I have my


http://www.cipr.co.uk/ciprtv/108058/the-wikipedia-debate-will-two-communities-collaborate-or-collide-

I think I won't get lynched by Wikipedians for that.

(God I look my age. The ponytail is going!)


-  d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Current consensus on PR editing?

[David Gerard]

On 21 June 2012 12:35, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote:

 I tend to take a bit more of a liberal guideline on fixing obvious
 blatant vandalism: Google CEO Larry Page is a great big poopyhead
 should be reverted no matter what, even if you have a conflict of
 interest, or are Larry Page himself, and would have thought this is
 generally accepted in the community.


Nuance is a tricky one and is likely to be taken by the most annoying
viewers as licence.


 Then again, better cautious than crucified.


In this sense, media rabidness is useful :-)


 What I fully and completely agree with is your assessment of your ponytail.


/me hides in room forever


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Duolingo and translating Wikipedia

[David Gerard]

On 20 June 2012 13:22, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote:

 One caveat that may be relevant to von Ahn's mention of Wikipedia:
 ...in the case of French, they are from the French version of
 Vikidia, a Wikipedia fork that’s basically a simple version of French
 Wikipedia intended for 8–13 year old children. There’s also Vikidia
 versions in Spanish and Italian. Sadly, Duolingo advertises these as
 being “Wikipedia” tasks rather than Vikidia tasks. There’s nothing
 wrong with translating non-Wikipedia articles, and it’s great that
 there is a more school-focussed version of French and Spanish
 Wikipedias, but it’s slightly deceptive to tell Duolingo users that
 they are doing a Wikipedia task when they aren’t.


That's interesting. Why is such a fork apparently sustainable in
French, Italian and Spanish but not in English?


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Draft best practice guideline for PR editors - needs more review

[David Gerard]

https://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Draft_best_practice_guidelines_for_PR

This was put together in the hope of PR editors not shooting their own
foot off. The idea is to be descriptive, not prescriptive.

Facilitated by WMUK, a fair bit of community input on the talk page.
But it needs more.

Where are good places to advertise it on the wiki? I mentioned it in
passing on VP Policy ...


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Current consensus on PR editing?

[David Gerard]

Is there any collected consensus on PR editing or is it all still a
lot of shouting? I'm not asking for your own opinions, but if there's
anywhere this is being discussed in some sort of abstractable manner.

I ask because next Wednesday I will be the Wikipedian at an episode of
the CIPR TV webcast[1]. Basically a podcast with a camera. I have my
own strong opinions, but rather than pushing those I'll be there to
say something reasonably representative of what the community actually
thinks, if there is any one thing it can be said to think. So is there
any place to get a feel for that?

They're also interested in
https://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Draft_best_practice_guidelines_for_PR
which is a how-not-to-foul-up guide put together by WMUK. But of
course that's descriptive and not normative.


- d.


[1] A past episode:
http://www.cipr.co.uk/ciprtv/107801/focus-on-public-relations-practice

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Current consensus on PR editing?

[David Gerard]

On 13 June 2012 15:51, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 13 June 2012 14:14, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is there any collected consensus on PR editing or is it all still a
 lot of shouting? I'm not asking for your own opinions, but if there's
 anywhere this is being discussed in some sort of abstractable manner.

 Came up at the London meetup. Opinion ranges talking to PR people to
 injecting formic acid into their eyeballs. So I'm going to stay we are
 still at the lot of shouting stage.


Yep, sounds like I'll be trying to do NPOV live in real time. It'll be
great fun, I'm sure.

At least I'll get to frighten my coworkers on Wednesday by showing up in a suit.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Bing tie-up with Encyclopaedia Britannica

[David Gerard]

On 8 June 2012 12:07, Katie Chan k...@ktchan.info wrote:

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18365767
 Microsoft has signed a deal with Encyclopaedia Britannica to add entries
 from the reference work to Bing.


Now all they need is to add them to MySpace.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Encyclopedia of Life passes 1 million pages

[David Gerard]

On 26 May 2012 21:02, Tony Sidaway tonysida...@gmail.com wrote:

 I was tempted enough to join this site, but actually producing
 anything is difficult. It reminds me of h2g2.


Do tell, please write up the process in detail.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Fwd: [Wikimediauk-l] Lum Hats in Paradise

[David Gerard]

Brian McNeil's productive work in Edinburgh. I particularly like the
idea of recruiting newbies at libraries - with all those lovely old
printed references right there to hand. Get those library computers
being used for more than webmail. This could work anywhere.


- d.



-- Forwarded message --
From:  brian.mcn...@wikinewsie.org
Date: 22 May 2012 13:03
Subject: [Wikimediauk-l] Lum Hats in Paradise
To: wikimediau...@lists.wikimedia.org


Hola! From a non-Wikipedian Wikimedian - in Edinburgh - who is delighted
with the response from some tentative outreach work.

I spend around an hour this morning touring Edingburgh's Central Library
with Fiona Myles, took around 150 photos of the interior of the
building, and _hope_ I've laid the groundwork for us to work far more
closely in future.

I have, dependent on copyright, a verbal agreement to get high-res scans
of the plans of the building (A Carnegie Library), a keen interest to
have librarians briefed on Wikipedia - if not outright encouraged to
contribute, and the possibility of running recruitment/induction
sessions in Edinburgh. Which, for the unwashed masses, is a UNESCO City
of Literature.

Given the piss-poor representation up here in Scotland, I think that's a
major win. My next job, as interim 'cowboy liasion' between Wikimedia UK
and Museums Galleries Scotland is to get a few councillors calling for
all publicly funded publications to be under a CC-BY license.

Any, and all, encouragement welcome. Any Englandshire Wikimedians wh
plan to visit Edingburgh in the next 6-12 months, please feel free to
drop me a mail. If I can get you meetings with people, or privileged
access for photography, I will.

Fun and frivolity aside, with limited Internet access I've come to the
conclusion that public libraries are the way to recruit. Brief the staff
of what makes a good Wikipedia article - half of them know already -
then a simple static display may encourage locals to try their hand.
Here in Edinburgh I suspect I can, without too many problems, get
articles put into about a half-dozen languages with keen help from
library staff.

And this message's title? Purloined from a book on the city's libraries.






Brian McNeil
--
Wikinews, Accredited Reporter. Personal: brian.mcn...@o2.co.uk
Facts don't cease to be facts, but news ceases to be news.



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How the Professor Who Fooled Wikipedia Got Caught by Reddit, _The Atlantic_

[David Gerard]

On 20 May 2012 22:32, Gwern Branwen gwe...@gmail.com wrote:

 There's nothing to answer; and I've been copying the most informative
 or hilarious quotes for posterity, such as an active administrator in
 good standing wondering if it might actually increase article quality
 and not constitute vandalism at all!
 The whole thing was worth it just for that quote; I could not have
 made up a better example of the sickness.


So, your attempt to prove that no-one cares about external links that
aren't references showed that ... no-one cares about external links
that aren't references.

And that editors should regard ELs on the talk page strictly as notes to self.

What I'm feeling about this *feels* just like hindsight bias, but I
vaguely recall saying something just like that.


- d.

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[WikiEN-l] Encyclopedia of Life passes 1 million pages

[David Gerard]

http://eol.org/info/press_releases/info/May_9

So - is EoL of any relevance to us? Is there any potential for synergy?


- d.

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