Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Max Semenik]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 12:55 AM AntiCompositeNumber <
anticompositenum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> *HTML email is a scourge.*
>

Welcome to the future! Every new thing introduces new problems, but we
kinda can't stop the progress.

-- 
Best regards,
Max Semenik
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[AntiCompositeNumber]

*HTML email is a scourge.*

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 9:35 AM Chris Danis  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 9:22 AM Faidon Liambotis 
> wrote:
> > On behalf of the Mutt & other console email clients user club, we
> > approve of this change. We haven't formed consensus on it yet, but I
> > suspect we'd even be willing to go one step further and negotiate the
> > use of emojis as well (perhaps even emojis in subject lines). No
> > promises for responding in HTML, though; that's probably going to have
> > to wait another century.
>
>  
>
> In at least the past couple years of Linux distribution releases,
> graphical terminals generally do a good job of emoji rendering by default,
> for what it's worth. 
>
> If you find emoji rendering amiss on your Debian-like system, I recommend
> first
>
>   apt install fonts-noto-color-emoji
>
> and then installing this ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/P12767
>
>
> Keep it ,
>
> --
> Chris Danis (he/him)
> Staff Site Reliability Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Chris Danis]

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 9:22 AM Faidon Liambotis 
wrote:
> On behalf of the Mutt & other console email clients user club, we
> approve of this change. We haven't formed consensus on it yet, but I
> suspect we'd even be willing to go one step further and negotiate the
> use of emojis as well (perhaps even emojis in subject lines). No
> promises for responding in HTML, though; that's probably going to have
> to wait another century.

 

In at least the past couple years of Linux distribution releases, graphical
terminals generally do a good job of emoji rendering by default, for what
it's worth. 

If you find emoji rendering amiss on your Debian-like system, I recommend
first

  apt install fonts-noto-color-emoji

and then installing this ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/P12767


Keep it ,

-- 
Chris Danis (he/him)
Staff Site Reliability Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Roy Smith]

As long as you guys keep the B-News  
bi-directional gateway functioning, I'm fine.  And, please, make sure you strip 
any leading whitespace so as not to tickle the line-eater.

> On Sep 23, 2020, at 9:21 AM, Faidon Liambotis  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 02:45:37PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
>> We still haven't heard from Faidon who, last I heard, still reads his
>> emails by piping telnet into less or something. But I think he can
>> make sense of multipart/alternative as long as it's not base-64
>> encoded. You should send the plain text as the first part so he
>> doesn't have to page down too far  ;)
> 
> On behalf of the Mutt & other console email clients user club, we
> approve of this change. We haven't formed consensus on it yet, but I
> suspect we'd even be willing to go one step further and negotiate the
> use of emojis as well (perhaps even emojis in subject lines). No
> promises for responding in HTML, though; that's probably going to have
> to wait another century.
> 
> Faidon
> 
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> 

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Faidon Liambotis]

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 02:45:37PM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> We still haven't heard from Faidon who, last I heard, still reads his
> emails by piping telnet into less or something. But I think he can
> make sense of multipart/alternative as long as it's not base-64
> encoded. You should send the plain text as the first part so he
> doesn't have to page down too far  ;)

On behalf of the Mutt & other console email clients user club, we
approve of this change. We haven't formed consensus on it yet, but I
suspect we'd even be willing to go one step further and negotiate the
use of emojis as well (perhaps even emojis in subject lines). No
promises for responding in HTML, though; that's probably going to have
to wait another century.

Faidon

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Steve Summit via Wikitech-l]

Tim Starling wrote:
> We still haven't heard from Faidon who, last I heard, still reads his
> emails by piping telnet into less or something. But I think he can
> make sense of multipart/alternative as long as it's not base-64
> encoded...

I'm not Faidon, and I'm not even a regular contributor to this list,
but as a data point of almost vanishingly possible interest, I can
say that the above isn't even much of an exaggeration for the
suitably old-guard set.  Me, I read mail using a shell script
'mshow', which boils down to a selective cat from $MAIL into more,
and gratuitous base-64 encoding is indeed an issue, causing me to
pretty regularly have to type

mshow | mailbody | b64 -d | more

I have really got to automate that some day.

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

It's fine to allow HTML email, but doing so shifts on the users the
burden of fixing their clients so that they produce suitable multipart
emails before sending them to the list. With some common email clients
and providers (e.g. Gmail webmail) it's surprisingly easy to produce
utterly unreadable HTML which wouldn't pass even the most lenient
accessibility scrutiny.

Federico

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Daniel Kinzler]

Thanks Tim.

This prompted me to finally switch to composing mails in HTML per default, like
it's the 21st century.

Am 23.09.20 um 06:45 schrieb Tim Starling:
> OK done, and it seems to be working.
>
-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Software Engineer, Core Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Tim Starling]

OK done, and it seems to be working.

Sorry to pre-empt the discussion, but I really wanted to send that
triage email as HTML.

We still haven't heard from Faidon who, last I heard, still reads his
emails by piping telnet into less or something. But I think he can
make sense of multipart/alternative as long as it's not base-64
encoded. You should send the plain text as the first part so he
doesn't have to page down too far  ;)

-- Tim Starling

On 23/9/20 2:31 pm, Tito Dutta wrote:
> Yes, that would be helpful.
>
> বুধ, ২৩ সেপ্টেম্বর, ২০২০ ৯:০৫ AM তারিখে MusikAnimal
> mailto:musikani...@gmail.com>> লিখেছেন:
>
> Agreed! The word wrapping especially drives me nuts. My phone is
> just small
> enough that the last word or two of each line gets wrapped
> natively, on top
> of Mailman's wrapping, making any sizable email a difficult read.
>
> ~ MA
>
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 11:26 PM Gergő Tisza  > wrote:
>
> > Yes please. A mere fifty years after the invention of
> hyperlinks, it would
> > be great to adopt them here.
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> 
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[ZI Jony]

Agreed, good idea.

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 10:31 AM Tito Dutta  wrote:

> Yes, that would be helpful.
>
> বুধ, ২৩ সেপ্টেম্বর, ২০২০ ৯:০৫ AM তারিখে MusikAnimal 
> লিখেছেন:
>
>> Agreed! The word wrapping especially drives me nuts. My phone is just
>> small
>> enough that the last word or two of each line gets wrapped natively, on
>> top
>> of Mailman's wrapping, making any sizable email a difficult read.
>>
>> ~ MA
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 11:26 PM Gergő Tisza  wrote:
>>
>> > Yes please. A mere fifty years after the invention of hyperlinks, it
>> would
>> > be great to adopt them here.
>> > ___
>> > Wikitech-l mailing list
>> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>> >
>> ___
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Tito Dutta]

Yes, that would be helpful.

বুধ, ২৩ সেপ্টেম্বর, ২০২০ ৯:০৫ AM তারিখে MusikAnimal 
লিখেছেন:

> Agreed! The word wrapping especially drives me nuts. My phone is just small
> enough that the last word or two of each line gets wrapped natively, on top
> of Mailman's wrapping, making any sizable email a difficult read.
>
> ~ MA
>
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 11:26 PM Gergő Tisza  wrote:
>
> > Yes please. A mere fifty years after the invention of hyperlinks, it
> would
> > be great to adopt them here.
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[MusikAnimal]

Agreed! The word wrapping especially drives me nuts. My phone is just small
enough that the last word or two of each line gets wrapped natively, on top
of Mailman's wrapping, making any sizable email a difficult read.

~ MA

On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 11:26 PM Gergő Tisza  wrote:

> Yes please. A mere fifty years after the invention of hyperlinks, it would
> be great to adopt them here.
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Timo Tijhof]

+1 for both of these. This would save me some time in the drafting of
Wikitech-l emails.

You will of course still reserve the
right to insert line breaks at your
own discretion to achieve a
particular
visual
fit.-- Timo





On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 4:03 AM Tim Starling 
wrote:

> * Should Mailman collapse multipart/alternative to its first part content?
> * Should Mailman convert text/html parts to plain text? This
> conversion happens after MIME attachments have been stripped.
>
> These mailman options are both enabled for this list. I would argue
> that they should both be disabled. It is nice to write emails with
> cutting-edge features like client-side word wrapping and links.
>
> Are there any objections to this change?
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Gergő Tisza]

Yes please. A mere fifty years after the invention of hyperlinks, it would
be great to adopt them here.
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

[Wikitech-l] Allow HTML email

[Tim Starling]

* Should Mailman collapse multipart/alternative to its first part content?
* Should Mailman convert text/html parts to plain text? This
conversion happens after MIME attachments have been stripped.

These mailman options are both enabled for this list. I would argue
that they should both be disabled. It is nice to write emails with
cutting-edge features like client-side word wrapping and links.

Are there any objections to this change?

-- Tim Starling


___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l