Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
Aryeh Gregor wrote: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:12 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: They are happy to foul up the entire standard. I feel there is little to no benefit to us in trying to imply that the situation is otherwise. First of all, Apple is not fouling up the entire standard. They employ one of its two co-editors, their developers contribute to it very actively, and they ship an implementation that's as advanced as anybody's. This is *one* specific feature that they've said they won't implement at the present time (but they may reconsider at any time). Mozilla has vetoed features as well, as Ian Hickson has pointed out. Mozilla refused to implement SQL, so that was removed from the standard, just as mention of Theora was. Second of all, I don't have a serious problem with Wikimedia only advocating the use of open-source software, say. But if it does, it *must* be phrased in a way that makes it clear that it's an advertisement of a product we want the user to use, not a neutral assessment of what the best technology is for viewing the page. Anything else is deliberately misleading, and that's unacceptable. I don't think we should phrase it like a better experience, or you better use X. That's too much used. The user will say I am using Internet Viewer 8000, there's no way this advanced browser failt to show it, it's their fault. I advocate a simply: You can [[install X]] to get native support. [[More info]] And on more info you can explain everything: e are using the standard method for delivering video to the web, using the open source Ogg format. We detect your browser X doesn't support (video tag|Ogg). We currently show you the videos using a Java applet but it's slower. You can [update your browser or] install one of these browsers which do have support: *browser1 *browser2 *browser3 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
This is really a foundation / wikimedia community question. ... I will do a short email to foundation-l summarizing the technical discussion. Not that foundation-l has historically been the best way to build consensus but maybe someone else can summarize that discussion and give us a ball-park of the community voice on the matter allowing the foundation to move forward with something. Meanwhile I will try and make sure the new player is good and ready to be integrated ;) --michael Aryeh Gregor wrote: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:12 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: They are happy to foul up the entire standard. I feel there is little to no benefit to us in trying to imply that the situation is otherwise. First of all, Apple is not fouling up the entire standard. They employ one of its two co-editors, their developers contribute to it very actively, and they ship an implementation that's as advanced as anybody's. This is *one* specific feature that they've said they won't implement at the present time (but they may reconsider at any time). Mozilla has vetoed features as well, as Ian Hickson has pointed out. Mozilla refused to implement SQL, so that was removed from the standard, just as mention of Theora was. Second of all, I don't have a serious problem with Wikimedia only advocating the use of open-source software, say. But if it does, it *must* be phrased in a way that makes it clear that it's an advertisement of a product we want the user to use, not a neutral assessment of what the best technology is for viewing the page. Anything else is deliberately misleading, and that's unacceptable. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: Regardless, I think we've finished the technical part of this decision— the details are a matter of organization concern now, not technology. Yep, definitely. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
2009/7/9 Platonides platoni...@gmail.com: I advocate a simply: You can [[install X]] to get native support. [[More info]] What do we do for iPhone users? They do not have Theora support because Apple has actively decided it will not support it; we can either appear to be defective, or we can correctly assign responsibility. I assume Apple is not ashamed of their decision to exclude Theora. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 5:23 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/9 Platonides platoni...@gmail.com: I advocate a simply: You can [[install X]] to get native support. [[More info]] What do we do for iPhone users? They do not have Theora support because Apple has actively decided it will not support it; we can either appear to be defective, or we can correctly assign responsibility. I assume Apple is not ashamed of their decision to exclude Theora. Obviously the solution is to send the user to instructions on how to jailbreak their iphone and install theora support. Duh. ;) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Platonidesplatoni...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think we should phrase it like a better experience, or you better use X. That's too much used. The user will say I am using Internet Viewer 8000, there's no way this advanced browser failt to show it, it's their fault. I advocate a simply: You can [[install X]] to get native support. [[More info]] Native support is gibberish to most users. You need to say something comprehensible if you want anyone to pay attention. Like to get better video playback instead of to get native support. Assuming that native support really is noticeably better. Maybe we could only suggest it if we detect that the playback is stuttering, or suggest it more prominently if we detect that. I assume Cortado can detect that. Are there noticeable advantages to native playback other than better performance? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
2009/7/9 Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com: Assuming that native support really is noticeably better. Maybe we could only suggest it if we detect that the playback is stuttering, or suggest it more prominently if we detect that. I assume Cortado can detect that. Are there noticeable advantages to native playback other than better performance? Yes: not waiting thirty seconds for Java to start up. The user experience for second and subsequent video plays in Cortado is just fine. The first one *really sucks*. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 6:20 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/9 Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com: Assuming that native support really is noticeably better. Maybe we could only suggest it if we detect that the playback is stuttering, or suggest it more prominently if we detect that. I assume Cortado can detect that. Are there noticeable advantages to native playback other than better performance? Yes: not waiting thirty seconds for Java to start up. 10 of which your browser pretending to be crashed in many cases. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
2009/7/9 Gregory Maxwell gmaxw...@gmail.com: On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 6:20 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/9 Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com: Assuming that native support really is noticeably better. Maybe we could only suggest it if we detect that the playback is stuttering, or suggest it more prominently if we detect that. I assume Cortado can detect that. Are there noticeable advantages to native playback other than better performance? Yes: not waiting thirty seconds for Java to start up. 10 of which your browser pretending to be crashed in many cases. Yep - that's what really, really makes the Cortado experience suck. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Marco Schusterma...@harddisk.is-a-geek.org wrote: We should not recommend Chrome - as good as it is, but it has serious privacy problems. Opera is not Open Source, so I think we'd best stay with Firefox, even if Chrome/Opera begin to support video tag. I don't think we should use these kinds of ideological criteria when making any sort of recommendation here. We should state in a purely neutral fashion that browsers X, Y, and Z will result in the video playing better on your computer than your current browser does. It would be misleading to imply that Firefox is superior to these other browsers for the purposes of playing the video tag. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: I'd drop the word experience. It's superfluous marketing speak. So the notice chain I'm planning on adding to the simple video/ compatibility JS is something like this: If the user is using safari4 on a desktop system and doesn't have xiphqt: * Advise the user to install XiphQT (note, there should be a good installer available soon) The rational being that if they are known to use safari now they probably will in the future, better to get them to install XiphQT than to hope they'll continue using another browser. If the users is using any of a list of platforms known to support firefox: * Advise them to use firefox 3.5 Otherwise say nothing. It would be silly at this time to be advising users of some non-firefox-supporting mobile device that firefox 3.5 provides the best experience. ;) That sounds good. Why not recommend Safari plus XiphQT as well, if the goal is only to tell them what browsers support good video playback? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Aryeh Gregorsimetrical+wikil...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Marco Schusterma...@harddisk.is-a-geek.org wrote: We should not recommend Chrome - as good as it is, but it has serious privacy problems. Opera is not Open Source, so I think we'd best stay with Firefox, even if Chrome/Opera begin to support video tag. I don't think we should use these kinds of ideological criteria when making any sort of recommendation here. We should state in a purely neutral fashion that browsers X, Y, and Z will result in the video playing better on your computer than your current browser does. It would be misleading to imply that Firefox is superior to these other browsers for the purposes of playing the video tag. Not every decision is a purely technical. Mozilla has done a lot to support the development of this functionality. Putting other browser developers on equal footing is not an neutral decision either. The ideological, and other, criteria is moot when there is only one thing to recommend. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: That sounds good. Why not recommend Safari plus XiphQT as well, if the goal is only to tell them what browsers support good video playback? Hm. Two things to install rather than one? For the moment there is also a technical problem with Safari 4: It claims (via the canPlayType() call) that it can't support Ogg even when XiphQT is installed. We currently work around this by detecting the mime-type registration which happens as part of the XiphQT installation. In practice this means that Safari 4 will work with Ogg video on sites using OggHandler, but not on many others. Safari also isn't an especially widely adopted browser outside of apple systems. Should we also recommend the dozens of oddball free geko and webkit based browsers supporting video/ which are soon to exist? Flooding the users with options is a good way to turn them off. There is already at least one (Midori). ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: For the moment there is also a technical problem with Safari 4: It claims (via the canPlayType() call) that it can't support Ogg even when XiphQT is installed. We currently work around this by detecting the mime-type registration which happens as part of the XiphQT installation. In practice this means that Safari 4 will work with Ogg video on sites using OggHandler, but not on many others. Oh yes, I forgot that bug. Until Apple release the fix for that, there's nothing to do but feed 'em Cortado and strongly suggest Firefox. Safari also isn't an especially widely adopted browser outside of apple systems. Should we also recommend the dozens of oddball free geko and webkit based browsers supporting video/ which are soon to exist? Flooding the users with options is a good way to turn them off. There is already at least one (Midori). Link to a page? The Wikimedia Foundation has worked closely with the Mozilla Foundation on Firefox 3.5. The following will also work ... - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: Not every decision is a purely technical. Mozilla has done a lot to support the development of this functionality. Putting other browser developers on equal footing is not an neutral decision either. I think the most neutral thing would be to suggest the top two or three browsers for the platform that support the functionality, in order of market share. If the browser has negligible (1%?) market share on the platform, or only supports video in beta or development builds, it can be left off. Maybe you could also put Safari second even on Mac, since it requires an extra install and doesn't work perfectly. But I think it's misleading to act as though Safari isn't a good option, when it's the default system browser and probably works better in various other ways than Mac Firefox (I've definitely heard that this was the case before Firefox 3.0). If the message made it clear that the recommendation was opinionated, and not just advising the viewer on how best to view the video, it would be less of an issue to exclude browsers for not being open-source or whatever. Like We recommend you use X, which will allow you to view this video better instead of X will allow you to view this video better. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 4:27 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: Uh, it's not a good option for Wikimedia video. With XiphQT, why not? Maybe not ideal, but surely good. And, more importantly, it's not a good option for Wikimedia video because Apple has *deliberately chosen to make it not a good option*. They haven't prevented it from being an option. As far as I know, Safari is the only video-implementing browser with pluggable codec support. I haven't bothered doing any research, so I could be wrong -- maybe Chrome or Opera support pluggable codecs -- but Firefox definitely does not let you use codecs other than Theora, unless I'm badly mistaken. The upshot is that Safari is certainly the second-best stable browser to view Theora video on. They seriously think everyone should just use H.264. No one from Apple has ever said that. They are not willing to ship support for Theora directly themselves, that's all. And they may be willing to reconsider: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/2009-July/002415.html Nothing Apple has done has suggested to me that they've acted dishonestly. Everything I've seen is consistent with them perceiving not enough benefit from supporting Theora to justify taking a nontrivial (although not necessarily large) legal risk. Of course, their actions also might be consistent with more sinister hypotheses, but let's not assume bad faith here, shall we? Regardless, if the message is phrased purely as advice on how to get videos working better, what it says should *not* follow any motives other than that. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
2009/7/8 Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 4:27 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: Uh, it's not a good option for Wikimedia video. With XiphQT, why not? Maybe not ideal, but surely good. As Greg has noted, due to a bug in Safari it's impossible for the browser at present to indicate that it can handle Ogg or not. So how do we tell if the Safari user can use that or if they have to download XiphQT? There isn't a way at present. Either we shove Safari on Mac users onto Cortado by default (since Java can be presumed present on MacOS X) or we risk giving them a video element that doesn't work. (Unless the failure can somehow be sniffed.) Nothing Apple has done has suggested to me that they've acted dishonestly. Everything I've seen is consistent with them perceiving not enough benefit from supporting Theora to justify taking a nontrivial (although not necessarily large) legal risk. Of course, their actions also might be consistent with more sinister hypotheses, but let's not assume bad faith here, shall we? They are happy to foul up the entire standard. I feel there is little to no benefit to us in trying to imply that the situation is otherwise. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:12 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/8 Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 4:27 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: Uh, it's not a good option for Wikimedia video. With XiphQT, why not? Maybe not ideal, but surely good. As Greg has noted, due to a bug in Safari it's impossible for the browser at present to indicate that it can handle Ogg or not. So how do we tell if the Safari user can use that or if they have to download XiphQT? There isn't a way at present. Either we shove Safari on Mac users onto Cortado by default (since Java can be presumed present on MacOS X) or we risk giving them a video element that doesn't work. (Unless the failure can somehow be sniffed.) Well *we* do. As a side effect of installing XiphQT a mime type is registered. This is completely independent of the video tag. So we'll detect this and use it anyways. I believe we're the only users of video whom have ever done this. It's not obvious, and I doubt we'd be doing it were it not for the fact that that detection method was previously used for detecting pre-video availability of XiphQT. (FWIW, that behaviour is now fixed in their development builds) Regardless, I think we've finished the technical part of this decision— the details are a matter of organization concern now, not technology. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Recommending a browser for video (was: Proposal: switch to HTML 5)
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:12 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: They are happy to foul up the entire standard. I feel there is little to no benefit to us in trying to imply that the situation is otherwise. First of all, Apple is not fouling up the entire standard. They employ one of its two co-editors, their developers contribute to it very actively, and they ship an implementation that's as advanced as anybody's. This is *one* specific feature that they've said they won't implement at the present time (but they may reconsider at any time). Mozilla has vetoed features as well, as Ian Hickson has pointed out. Mozilla refused to implement SQL, so that was removed from the standard, just as mention of Theora was. Second of all, I don't have a serious problem with Wikimedia only advocating the use of open-source software, say. But if it does, it *must* be phrased in a way that makes it clear that it's an advertisement of a product we want the user to use, not a neutral assessment of what the best technology is for viewing the page. Anything else is deliberately misleading, and that's unacceptable. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxw...@gmail.com wrote: Regardless, I think we've finished the technical part of this decision— the details are a matter of organization concern now, not technology. Yep, definitely. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
