Re: [WSG] Links for light reading...
With regard to the rounded corners not working in IE ONe that does work in IE is the alistapart version http://www.alistapart.com/d/customcorners2/step2.4.html _ Gavin Thomas University of the West of England Academic Technologies Group [ATG] _ SECURITY POLICY Please note that ATG only accept e-mail attachments in the following formats: .doc, .gif, .htm, .jpg, .mdb, .png, .xls, .zip. __ This communication is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. Any opinions presented are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the University of the West of England, Bristol. _ russ weakley wrote: The Web Standards Awards - run by Johan Edlund, Andy Budd, Cameron Adams has announced their first site of the month. http://www.webstandardsawards.com/previous/the_85th_pga_championship.html#7 Also worth browsing their previous weekly Web Standards Awards winners: http://www.webstandardsawards.com/previous/ Rounded corners in CSS http://www.virtuelvis.com/gallery/css/rounded/ This technique doesn¹t work MSIE, but should in Opera and Mozilla. Also sucks on some version of Safari. Very interesting, but makes you wonder how practical it is in our current browser climate. D. Keith Robinson has interesting comments at his post on web standards I¹ve come along way, but it¹s not always been easy... I¹m still in a transitional phase when it comes to Web standards support http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives/why_not_web_standards.php Dan Cederholm has launched a Web Standards book based on the thought provoking Simple Quiz series - should be a great read. Markup and Style Handbook http://www.simplebits.com/archives/2004/03/07/book.html Eric Meyer (the CSS guru) has also announced a new book Cascading Style Sheets: The Definitive Guide, 2nd Edition: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/200403.html#d08 37signals have launched a new book - Defensive Design for the Web: How To Improve Error Messages, Help, Forms, and Other Crisis Points http://www.37signals.com/book/ Two quick links to nice web standards based sites (purely subjective): http://www.iconbuffet.com/ http://notesfromthedovecote.org/ And finally... Some appallingly bad web standards jokes: http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/36.php Reminds me of the old CSS joke... What does a CSS Guru have in his house? Lots of chairs but no tables... Sorry :( Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * This incoming email to UWE has been independently scanned for viruses and any virus detected has been removed using McAfee anti-virus software This email has been independently scanned for viruses and any virus detected has been removed using McAfee anti-virus software áyجrë,åË_¢¸m¶ÿÁæ쵩Ýj·lº.¦à
RE: [WSG] Links for light reading...
Also of some interest, maybe a bit old... Aug 7 2003 http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1388637 Paul Ford from ftrain.com on web standards. Nice to hear NPR on a topic close to my heart. I'm available for an interview too! (my public broadcasting (ABC) background showing through now). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Style Switcher and IE
Wowthe list sure is active during weekdays! Sorry just got around checking my list mail. I am not behind a firewall at all and did not use any programs such as firewall. If the site is showing/working for you guys then I guess the problem is with my computer. I will not be so worried then and will get mycom fixed! Thanks for all who commented on this topic! With Regards Jaime Wong ~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 03/09/04 08:46:32 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Style Switcher and IE You aren't by chance running any privacy software, such as the feature included with Zone Alarm's new firewall, are you?I had an issue with a Dell laptop at work (XP Pro) with the exact same script...turned out to be the firewall privacy feature restricting it.Drove me nuts trying to figure it out, cursing M$ of course. G MD On Mar 8, 2004, at 14:21, Jaime Wong wrote: Tried setting IE privacy to low and it still didn't work :/ With Regards Jaime Wong ~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I think I am a lil late tocontribute here but I would like to say that I agree with Justin. Forums are a good tool for organising topics but for some who are too busy totake the trouble to log into forums and check the posts, it is a turn off. I would prefer for the list to remain as it is now.At least I can take my time to read the mails when I have the time to do it. The only downside is that mailing list is thatit is hard to organise it tospecific folders. I have a folder for WSG but90% of the mail ended up in my inbox instead because the "from field" is actually using the sender's name. About having different categories of topics, I would go for it only if I am sure that those mails would go to the folders I specify..If not, it would be too confusing for me and I would not know where to start reading from. Lastly I want to say that I love WSG! People are helpful and although it is not a huge list, it doesn't matter. What matters most is the culture/attitude behind the list members. That is the only thing that makes me stay in the list and not to be shy/afraid to show my dumb side when it comes to issue I am unsure of. In fact, I would say that WSG has the best attitude so far compared to other lists. To Russ and Peter...you guys did a great job in maintaining the spirit! With Regards Jaime Wong ~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 03/10/04 11:59:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:21PM, Paul Ross wrote: Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will have to be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the noise traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of switching to a forum based website much like the excellent http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx As soon as lists move to forums, I stop posting, stop reading, and stop helping, as do many others.Web browser-based discussion lists are difficult, slow and tedious at the best of times, which is the complete opposite of mail and news groups, which were *designed especially* for threading, replies and message based discussion. Everything related to discussion happens faster and easier with a mail client than it does with a browser. Browser-based discussion has one positive; that being the fact that new subscribers can read old posts and search for topics before posting. This of course can easily be overcome with web-based archives of email lists (which is common anyway). --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * .
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Russ wrote in... Re: [WSG] Cascading background colors The important question is - do you know why it worked the second time around? The answer is that the second rule has more specificity... The above is a perfect example of the purpose of this mailing list. Russ' reply to Peter's how to directly follows up on the reasoning behind the CSS web standard. This is a win win situation for all of us, not just Peter. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement
Just a quick question Russ to make sure I understand better. Calendars and events (with dates and venue) or even for e.g. certain competition results (with points) would be more suitable to be done with tables rather than CSS right? With Regards Jaime Wong ~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 03/10/04 04:29:58 To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Lists weird requirement Frank, I completely agree with Tonico. Many people getting into web standards assume that it is based on removing tables. This is incorrect. There are times and places for tables. However, one of the main aims of web standards is to make your content more accessible to devices and users. This means choosing the most appropriate html elements for your content - not just for modern browsers but for all devices. In pure terms, using tables for positioning content on the page, or layout is semantically incorrect as it is using the table element for something it was not intended. However, tables are designed for displaying tabular data. Even more important, tables have a range of accessibility features that allow you to make this tabular data accessible to a wide range of users. The most common ones are: summary caption thead and tbody id and headers There is also scope=col and scope=row, but these are as well supported by modern browsers (my opinion only). The article I wrote on definition lists (linked to a few posts back) includes an example of a definition list styled to look like a table. This was simply to show how a simple definition list could be styled to look radically different to the default list style. It was NOT trying to encourage people to replace tabular data with definition lists. So, how do you choose when to use a list, a definition list or a table? Experience helps, but it also comes down to thinking through the purpose of your content before you mark it up. You should ask yourself questions like: If I mark up this content, how will this work in browsers without style sheets, text-based browsers, screen readers? How will it look to Google? What is the best way I can display this particular section of content so blind users can access it? If the content involves simple couplets of information, then a definition list may be appropriate. If the content requires a series of columns related to headings or is obviously tabular data, then tables are much more appropriate. A final note on the article that Tonico mentions: (http://www.ferg.org/section508/accessible_tables.html#contents_item_5) is It is an excellent read, but I would skip the section on Visible formatting. Some of the methods mentioned are semantically incorrect (use additional table cells for visually indenting content) and the styling examples could be written in much simpler and more powerful ways using descendant selectors. Russ Frank wrote: Re: tables... I wasn't sure if it was wise to use them here... But as you said, tables were meant for tabular data. Although I would still prefer to use a table-less layout (if it's still considered a wise choice). You would greatly improve accessibilty if you use appropriate table markup for tabular data. See http://www.ferg.org/section508/accessible_tables.html for details. Tonico * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 07:28 AM, Taco Fleur wrote: The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail ended up in my inbox instead because the from field is actually using the sender's name.\] You can also filter on the [WSG] in the subject, which is fool-proof. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] More links for light reading
How to debug CSS: http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/03/10/css_problems/index.php Google goes anti semantic (h1's are to easily abused): http://www.sitepoint.com/article/brandy-google-update Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Justin French wrote: You can also filter on the [WSG] in the subject, which is fool-proof. I'd rather not. That would filter out offlist messages as well. I filter on the to field. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Kristof * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] A kinda Simplequiz
Hi all, How would you mark up an interview? a) dl dtSo, how are you doing?/dt ddFine, thanks for asking/dd /dl b) p class=qSo, how are you doing?/p p class=aDidn't you just ask me that on a)/p c) hxSo, how are you doing?/hx pPlease, stop it./p d) Other This afternoon, at work, we were feeling risky and went for a) and i'm curious if you think it's fine, plain wrong or so-so. Thanks for your feedback :) -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement
I believe Calendars would be a great use of floats, just set a height and width, float left limit the row float to seven days and you have a cascading day based calendar. Cheers James Jaime Wong wrote: Just a quick question Russ to make sure I understand better. Calendars and events (with dates and venue) or even for e.g. certain competition results (with points) would be more suitable to be done with tables rather than CSS right? With Regards Jaime Wong * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A kinda Simplequiz
Option A is completely acceptable, and is actually very close to a W3C example: Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-list.html#edef_list_dt Russ Hi all, How would you mark up an interview? a) dl dtSo, how are you doing?/dt ddFine, thanks for asking/dd /dl b) p class=qSo, how are you doing?/p p class=aDidn't you just ask me that on a)/p c) hxSo, how are you doing?/hx pPlease, stop it./p d) Other This afternoon, at work, we were feeling risky and went for a) and i'm curious if you think it's fine, plain wrong or so-so. Thanks for your feedback :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A kinda Simplequiz
On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 10:39 AM, Manuel González Noriega wrote: How would you mark up an interview? a) dl dtSo, how are you doing?/dt ddFine, thanks for asking/dd /dl This seems most appropriate, given that a conversation/dialogue is given as an example usage of a DL in the specs. b) p class=qSo, how are you doing?/p p class=aDidn't you just ask me that on a)/p Yes, this seem appropriate too. c) hxSo, how are you doing?/hx pPlease, stop it./p The questions aren't really headings, so I'd say no on this one. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement
Yes, I have used this concept (floats) before for a calendar. If anyone wants the code, feel free to contact me off list. David McDonald Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:57:06 +1100 I believe Calendars would be a great use of floats, just set a height and width, float left limit the row float to seven days and you have a cascading day based calendar. Cheers James Jaime Wong wrote: Just a quick question Russ to make sure I understand better. Calendars and events (with dates and venue) or even for e.g. certain competition results (with points) would be more suitable to be done with tables rather than CSS right? With Regards Jaime Wong * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A kinda Simplequiz
Jackie Reid blurted out: Manuel Gonzlez Noriega wrote: b) doesn't work well for multi-paragraph questions or answers. scuse my ignorance but is it not ok to this: dldtfirst bit/dt dtnext bit/dt ddfirst bit/dd ddnext bit/dd ddand another bit/dd/dl While that would be fine, I personally would prefer: dl dt pfirst bit/p pnext bit/p /dt dd pfirst bit/p pnext bit/p pand another bit/p /dd /dl I prefer this because doing it in the form of multiple dts or dds in a row loses a bit of the cohesiveness of the back-and-forth nature of a conversation. Mostly it is a matter of taste. I also really liked the way that Lea mentioned. I didn't think about doing it that way, but it seems really natural. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A kinda Simplequiz
Robert Moser wrote: While that would be fine, I personally would prefer: dl dt pfirst bit/p pnext bit/p /dt dd pfirst bit/p pnext bit/p pand another bit/p /dd /dl I prefer this because doing it in the form of multiple dts or dds in a row loses a bit of the cohesiveness of the back-and-forth nature of a conversation. Mostly it is a matter of taste. Unfortunately p is not allowed inside dt :/ Zvon XHTML reference http://zvon.org/xxl/xhtmlReference/Output/Strict/el_dt.html Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement
*visually* you'd have a table...but what about the structure underneath the shiny facade ? Patrick -Original Message- From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 10/03/2004 23:57 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement I believe Calendars would be a great use of floats, just set a height and width, float left limit the row float to seven days and you have a cascading day based calendar. Cheers James Jaime Wong wrote: Just a quick question Russ to make sure I understand better. Calendars and events (with dates and venue) or even for e.g. certain competition results (with points) would be more suitable to be done with tables rather than CSS right? With Regards Jaime Wong * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Definition list wish
Robert Moser wrote: Consider this: you want to put a border around all your individual terms, some of which might have multiple definitions. Using some pretty esoteric CSS3 selectors you might be able to do it, but for the most part, you're just out of luck. ... Then you could have something like this: dl dli dtAlbatross/dt ddA sea bird/dd ddA tasty snack at the movies/dd /dli dli dtSwallow/dt ddCoconut delivery system/dd /dli /dl What about: dl dtAlbatross/dt ddA sea bird/dd ddA tasty snack at the movies/dd /dl dl dtSwallow/dt ddCoconut delivery system/dd /dl ? My question for the group would be manyfold: Is this even a worthwhile idea? What would the process be for making such a change? Don't know. I think the W3c site has documentation about this. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Definition list wish
What would the process be for making such a change? Sign up to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list. But a word of warning, be ready to have your idea ripped to shreds. Don't be dishearted by this process, every idea is ripped to shreds on that list - the good ones come through the other end and are included in the spec. Its kind of a litmus test I guess. Read the spec understand it. Read the up coming XHTML specs too (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-list.html#s_listmodule) make sure that your issue hasn't already been fixed. Search the list archive (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/) and make sure you've read all related discussions (see list below). Get all your ducks in a row and have all your arguments ready - then post your suggestion. Consider this: you want to put a border around all your individual terms, some of which might have multiple definitions. Using some pretty esoteric CSS3 selectors you might be able to do it, but for the most part, you're just out of luck. This argument will not hold any water on this list - borders are a presentational issue. The HTML people make a point of refusing to consider anything remotely presentational. I can see your point but you're going to have to express it in a sense that is relevant to semantic mark up or take it to the CSS list. What is the point of the dl tag? I think you are looking for something that will perform a similar function - how can you express that without talking about borders? I seriously think one of the best ways to get a real solid grip on HTML CSS is to sign up to the W3C lists and just read the conversations that take place there. But please, think very carefully before posting to these lists, the list members take a pretty dim view of poorly thought out or off topic posts, how to questions are also frowned on. They will make sure you get this message if you stray away from what they aiming for. Nice people - its just that they take their work very seriously. Some definition list related threads: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2004Jan/0031.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2003May/0316.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2003May/thread.html#227 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2003Nov/thread.html#18 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2002Oct/0009.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2002Aug/thread.html#240 Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I filter on the [WSG] in the subject line and would suggest that if you want to add other categories, it be done by adding to the [WSG]. For example, [WSG][CSS] subject,or [WSG] - CSS - subject. Justin French wrote: On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 07:28 AM, Taco Fleur wrote: The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail ended up in my inbox instead because the from field is actually using the sender's name.\] You can also filter on the [WSG] in the subject, which is fool-proof. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] effect of css background repeat-x at high res
Hi I was looking at http://www.alistapart.com/d/customcorners2/step2.4.html on my 1024x768 monitor and wondered what would the gradient used for the background using : background: #d3d7e0 url(../images/bg.jpg) repeat-x; look like at a really high resolution because bg.jpg is 1 px wide x 800 high eg: 1600x1200 ? would the bottom horizontal portion of the screen fade to #d3d7e0? a screenshot would be appreciated. As well what do ppl think of the use of gradient css backgrounds? overused? underused? too boring? Personally im not a graphics whizz like the ppl who have css examples at CSS zen garden so gradients are a common tool i use. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A kinda Simplequiz
Hello Manuel, hello list, How would you mark up an interview? a) dl b) p c) hx Another idea: Isn't it at least a table? f.e.: table summary=interview trthInterviewer/ththQuestion/ththAnswering Person/ththAnswer/th/tr trtdSam:/tdtdWhat are you doing here?/tdtdTommy:/tdtdI prefer eating on the floor than on tables./td [and so on...] /table no flames please :-) Greetings Stefan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Definition list wish
Tonico Strasser blurted out: Robert Moser wrote: Then you could have something like this: dl dli dtAlbatross/dt ddA sea bird/dd ddA tasty snack at the movies/dd /dli dli dtSwallow/dt ddCoconut delivery system/dd /dli /dl What about: dl dtAlbatross/dt ddA sea bird/dd ddA tasty snack at the movies/dd /dl dl dtSwallow/dt ddCoconut delivery system/dd /dl The semantic meaning of the two examples are different. With the way I had it, the meaning was: a single list of definitions with two items, the first item having two descriptions for a single term, and the second with a single description. This meaning is the same as what it would be without the additional dli elements. The additional elements just serve to explicitly link the dt and dd elements together. The second way is two lists of definitions, each with a single item, the item in the first list consists of a single term with two descriptions, and the item in the second list consists of a single term with a single item. The second way lacks a single container to house everything. It would of course be possible to wrap it in a div, but that is a somewhat generic way of imposing additional meaning. You could just as well make the whole thing out of divs and spans. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] effect of css background repeat-x at high res
Neerav blurted out: I was looking at http://www.alistapart.com/d/customcorners2/step2.4.html on my 1024x768 monitor and wondered what would the gradient used for the background using : background: #d3d7e0 url(../images/bg.jpg) repeat-x; look like at a really high resolution because bg.jpg is 1 px wide x 800 high eg: 1600x1200 ? would the bottom horizontal portion of the screen fade to #d3d7e0? a screenshot would be appreciated. You can see for yourself by making your browser really narrow, then scrolling down. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
