RE: [WSG] Any ASP.Net standards people here?
Hi David Yes another .Net developer here. Just getting to grips with Visual Studio 2003. I think 2005 version will correct a lot of issues. There are some useful articles on MSDN too. Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David R Sent: 26 January 2005 17:59 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Any ASP.Net standards people here? I was just wondering if there are any ASP.Net developers on the list other than me... If there are, you're probably aware of the issues involved with working with ASP.Net, such as the server-controls, and the engine overriding the ID= attribute for elements that have been 'runnated'. ...And any techniques you use to maintain full control over the code (Btw, if any of you are there, do you have much experience with the ASP.Net 1.1 implementation of Master pages?) Ciao! -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Any ASP.Net standards people here?
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:06:12 -, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've recently had a task to write stylesheet for ASP.Net page and I was really shocked how BAD that code is. Coder that wrote that didn't have any idea of web standards and he said that it's generally impossible to make this code cleaner. Is it really? Can DataGrids have th for headers? Do labels have to be span class=label? Does it have to insert nbsp; everywhere? Does it have to make javascript: urls? Most asp.net+standards articles describe lengthy and hacky ways to force ASP to output XHTML, but maybe there is a simple way just to make it semantic HTML4 Strict? -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Any ASP.Net standards people here?
Not sure how good the resources are, but I thought I'd share this site I've recently stumbled across: http://www.aspnetresources.com/ Emphasis is on ASP in relation to Web Standards. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE5 Mac Still choking
It's doing the same here on IE 5.1.7. It's ok here on IE 5.23 on OSX joe ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Help on file extensions used
Dear friends, Can any one help me with the extension used these days in some we pages. For example .gne (flickr.com) .pyra .do (blogger.com). How can these extensions be created what are its advantages? regards = Prashanth Nair dotcompals Tattamangalam.P.O Palakkad Dt. Kerala (State) India-678102 http://www.TattaMangalam.Com Call: +91 94474 22736 ; +91 4923 227395 Useful Links www.KeralaClick.com Photographs of Kerala Get Firefox! Safer/Faster/Better::: the Browser You can Trust __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE5 Mac Still choking
It's ok here on IE 5.23 on OSX Thanks everyone for taking a look. I did figure it out... thanks to Sarah Wedde. - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page
Hi, Some delicious points in your reply. Can you direct me to a resource on the subjects presented? I attempted reaching you off-list but the e-mail was returned. C On Monday, January 24, 2005, at 01:01 PM, csslist wrote: since you are using a server-side language you can do an if statement to where if it meets the flash needs it gives the flash menu if not gives an alternative menu. or if just refreshing is the problem, cache the swf immediately. ok i think i read that wrong i use coldfusion and i know what i'd do there but even with php why not just make a header page and include it Flash takes a while to load on slow connections. I wouldn't use it due to that fact. whats the difference between a 25k html page(with say animated gifs) and a 25k swf? there really isnt any reason that most swfs shouldnt be very compact anymore, except for poor design Generally flash menu creates problems: - links cannot be opened in new window/tab - u, yeah they can, rather easily too - links cannot be dragged (to bookmarks) - sure they can - no link context-menu, no statusbar information - i believe they now can and unless you create a reasonable alternative: - menu is inacessible to web spiders and screen readers - umm no its not, if done correctly. you should always have a static set of links available anyways (usually at bottom), spyders can read flash when do right as well. Although in this case i dont know why you would want it unless to follow links in which case an alternate means should be there as well or even a simple page of links. image.tiff From: Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 12:26 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about use of flash in a pure css page Hi, I'm exciting a burning time, but I adore FLASH, when used correctly. In this instance spare yourself the headache and use an animated GIF solution. This will increase accessibility options and spare you time and energy. On Monday, January 24, 2005, at 07:03 AM, Sven-Eric Buschgens wrote: Hello, I am currently busy/trying to make a pure css website.. Not using tables or frames. The problem that has occured for the menu we are using a flashbased menu. But because the index.php file is only one file which reloads when clicking on something the flash menu also reloads all the time. To see what I am talking about - have a look here : http://www.tripany.com/vdbII/ The thing that I want is that either flash isn't reload on a refresh or loading a new content.. of a way to use flash in this situation where it wont be reloaded all the time. Hope that anyone can help me with this.. else I will have to make the page using frames - which is something I dont want to do [a bit stubborn]. Thnx in advance for the help ! With regards ! Sven ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** The true measure of ignorance is thinking intelligence is the solution to everything. -ck Chris Kennon Principal ckimedia (www.ckimedia.com) e-mail: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) blog: (http://thebardwire.blogspot.com/) ph: (619)429-3258 fax: (619)429-3258 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Express Youself
top:expression(body.scrollTop + 4 + px); I'm unfamiliar with CSS expressions. Can someone point me to a source that has been used by list members. Also doesn't this contradict the effort of separation of code and content? CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Help on file extensions used
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:06:15 -0800 (PST), dotcompals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear friends, Can any one help me with the extension used these days in some we pages. For example .gne (flickr.com) .pyra .do (blogger.com). How can these extensions be created what are its advantages? Usually done with Apache's .htaccess funkiness. The advantages are pretty unknown to me though. None web standards related AFAIK though. -- Cheers, Rob. http://zooibaai.nl | http://digital-proof.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Any ASP.Net standards people here?
Kornel Lesinski wrote: Coder that wrote that didn't have any idea of web standards and he said that it's generally impossible to make this code cleaner. Can DataGrids have th for headers? Don't use DataGrids, they're horribly uncompliant, its not overly hard to write your own Custom Server Control that replaces it Do labels have to be span class=label? Only use asp:label if you want to programmattically set CSS positioning properties, otherwise use asp:Literal or the .InnerHTML property of the base HtmlControl class (provided you've runnat'd the containing tag) Does it have to insert nbsp; everywhere? ...News to me, that sounds like a problem with the IDE Does it have to make javascript: urls? Thats to do with Postback... I never rely on Postback and Viewstate or Runatt'd form elements, just use If Not (Request.Querystring Is Nothing) Then, it works essentially the same, although you will have to redefine control .Text and .InnerHtml properties Most asp.net+standards articles describe lengthy and hacky ways to force ASP to output XHTML, but maybe there is a simple way just to make it semantic HTML4 Strict? Yes... Most of the problems with web-standards with ASP.Net come from the System.Web.UI.WebControl classes, provided you stay away from those, you retain complete control. The only exceptions being the WebControl.Repeater and WebControl.Literal classes, which are perfectly fine HTH -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help on file extensions used
dotcompals wrote: Dear friends, Can any one help me with the extension used these days in some we pages. For example .gne (flickr.com) .pyra .do (blogger.com). How can these extensions be created what are its advantages? regards Its a server side thing. There are no advantages for the client or browser, all that matters is that the appropriate MIME/ContentType is sent. Of course, if you want custom extensions, just use Apache's mod_rewrite or IIS' ISAPI_Rewrite(). -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Express Youself
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:01:20 -0800, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: top:expression(body.scrollTop + 4 + px); I'm unfamiliar with CSS expressions. Can someone point me to a source that has been used by list members. Also doesn't this contradict the effort of separation of code and content? That contradicts separation of Microsoft proprietary extensions and Web standards ;) -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Express Youself
Chris Kennon wrote: top:expression(body.scrollTop + 4 + px); I'm unfamiliar with CSS expressions. Can someone point me to a source that has been used by list members. Also doesn't this contradict the effort of separation of code and content? CSS Expressions arn't standard :) ...They're a propriety extension brought in by Microsoft, they did submit it for proposal, but it was declined, it is a good idea (in paper) though But since IE is the only browser that supports it, its not worth using unless you need the functionality provided by CSS2.1, such as max-width, min-width, max-height, etc... that Trident IV doesn't support. (Trident IV is the name of the current MSHTML rendering engine) ...But best to keep extensions in an IE-only stylesheet hidden by conditional comments and the like, thus keeping the rest of your code valid -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help on file extensions used
Hi, I think the only advantages of these extensions are dis-advantages. The must-read on this topic is from Tim Berners-Lee Cool URIs don't change: http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html If you must use any extension at all - please consider something that anyone finds meaningful. The strange extensions may give maybe some security through obscurity, but in longer term you will curse them. Rene Saarsoo ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Imaginary Borders
In the following code the tr#n rules are not taking. I've looked
around and have no reason for this failure. Would someone assist?
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en
lang=enhead
titleTable Jazz/title
meta http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
/
style type=text/css media=screen
th{ text-align: center; font-weight: bold;}
th{ vertical-align: baseline; background-color: blue;}
td{ vertical-align: middle;}
table { border-collapse: collapse;}
tr#row1 {border: 3px solid blue; background-color: grey;}
tr#row2 {border-top: 1px solid black;}
tr#row3 {border-top: 1px solid black;}
caption { caption-side: top; font-size: 12px;}
/style
/head
body
table summary=w3.org sample table
captionThis is a simple 3x3 Table/caption
tr id=row1
thHeader1/th tdCell 1/td tdCell 2/td
/tr
tr id=row2
thHeader2/th tdCell 3/td tdCell 4/td
/tr
tr id=row3
thHeader 3/th tdCell 5/td tdCell 6/td
/tr
/table
/body
/html
CK
__
Knowing is not enough, you must apply;
willing is not enough, you must do.
---Bruce Lee
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Sliding div, suckerfish nav, and general site check please!
Greetings All, I have a client that wanted me to completely redo a table-based site he has using css positioning with an eye towards standards compliance (dont you wish there were more of those clients?!). The page he gave me to work from is: http://dev.cmhhike.com/ He wanted to preserve the function of the drop down nav, which was image-based using heavy scripting, but wanted it to be list- and css-based. He also wanted the page to be centered. And he needed to preserve the drop down pop-up box thing, but he wanted to have it positioned differently. I used the Son of Suckerfish Dropdowns article (http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/) as a jumping-off point for the nav work. Then I used a Slide Layer Dreamweaver extension (http://dmxzone.com/ShowDetail.asp?NewsId=3484) by Marja Ribbers (http://dmxzone.com/myZone.asp?userid=8884) to create the sliding behavior of the pop-up. The reworked page can be seen here: http://www.manisheriar.com/kevjo/cmh/index.htm I have tested it in FF and IE on the PC and was wondering if I could get feedback from users of other browsers and platforms. And any other feedback about usability or anything else would be appreciated. Ive never used these techniques before and Im just not sure how kosher they are. I know that one issue is that the far right menu, when hovered over, if it extends past the width of the browser than you get a horizontal scroll bar and no easy way to reach the sub-nav lists. Ive also heard that things arent working quite right in Mozilla on the Mac, but havent had any details on this. If you do spot problems, screenshots would, as usual, be greatly appreciated. And even more greatly appreciated would be any ideas on how to fix the problems! Thanks SO much everyone! Mani Sheriar Sheriar Designs | www.ManiSheriar.com 925|914.0741 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web site review please
John, I think you have done a marvelous job. And I agree with what you said, I am using 0.8em, which is resizeable, and that is equal, for example in IE with 12,8 px. I dont see why that should be a problem. However of course if someone can enlighten me Id love to learn. ;o) I increased and decreased the font quite a bit in FF and IE on the PC and it worked just great. I also took the window size up and down and it held up quite well in all but the smallest dimensions. I do agree, however, that the hovered-links are just a bit jarring. Perhaps something a little easier on the eyes would be preferable ... but that's just my opinion. Great work! Mani Sheriar Sheriar Designs | www.ManiSheriar.com 925|914.0741 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web site review please
Nice site, resizing text works well without destroying the layout. Take a look at the nav section (visually) on the left. Does div really provide any semantic meaning to your code? Changing those to headings (or some other structural tag e.g. dl) will give you hooks for your CSS and provide some clarity when viewing the site without CSS and improve navigation with screen readers. Terrence Wood. John Britsios wrote: Please see here: http://www.webnauts.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Sliding div, suckerfish nav, and general site check please!
So I hear from one kind list member that on Safari the secondary nav lists are leaving little bits of themselves on the screen. Very strange. Ive posted the screenshot he sent me of it here: http://www.manisheriar.com/kevjo/cmh/safari.htm Does anyone have any ideas as to why this is happening? THANKS! Mani Sheriar Sheriar Designs | www.ManiSheriar.com 925|914.0741
Re: [WSG] Imaginary Borders
Hi Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED], On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:39:42 -0800, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the following code the tr#n rules are not taking. I've looked around and have no reason for this failure. Would someone assist? This has been discussed on css-discuss before, e.g. [1]. There seem to be inconsistencies between browsers (IE vs Opera and Mozilla?) although the CSS 2 spec's suggest how it ought to work [2]. In Firefox it seems to behave kinda sensibly: the blue border collapses with the black top border of #row2 (which becomes invisible) whilst the #row3 border-top is visible. HTH, James PS: The grey background shows up in IE if you spell it gray ;-) Ff is happy with either -- weird! [1] http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/49334 [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/tables.html#borders ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Imaginary Borders
First off try using hex for your colors instead of color
names. Next, remove the bottom border
from the row1 so that it doesnt override the top border from row2. The resulting code worked for me and looks
like this:
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0
Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
xml:lang=en lang=enhead
titleTable
Jazz/title
meta
http-equiv=Content-type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 /
style type=text/css
media=screen
th{ text-align: center; font-weight: bold;}
th{ vertical-align: baseline; background-color: #00f;}
td{
vertical-align: middle;}
table {
border-collapse: collapse;}
tr#row1
{border-top: 3px solid #00f; background-color: #999;border-right: 3px solid
#00f; background-color: #999; border-left: 3px solid #00f; background-color:
#999}
tr {border-collapse:none;}
tr#row2
{border-top: 1px solid #000;}
tr#row3
{border-top: 1px solid #000;}
caption {
caption-side: top; font-size: 12px;}
/style
/head
body
table summary=w3.org sample table
captionThis is a simple 3x3
Table/caption
tr
id=row1
thHeader1/th tdCell 1/td tdCell 2/td
/tr
tr
id=row2
thHeader2/th tdCell 3/td tdCell
4/td
/tr
tr
id=row3
thHeader
3/th tdCell 5/td
tdCell 6/td
/tr
/table
/body
/html
Mani Sheriar
Sheriar Designs | www.ManiSheriar.com
925|914.0741
[WSG] Building with scaling in mind
Hi all, General question for all you seasoned CSS gurus. I was admiring stopdesign.com. I think it's a beautiful layout. But I am having a problem wrapping my head around the concept behind building a page like that so that when text is scaled, the containers don't get all messed up. On stopdesign.com, the containers get deeper as needed but the layout (i.e, the positions of one container next to another) stays solid. How is this done, basically speaking. Percentage widths on containers which are inside a container with a fixed width? I was poking around the source for stopdesign.com ( which is meticulous, by the way ) but like I said, I am having trouble understanding the basic concept of what's being done. Any insight would be appreciated. Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
I don't think w3c standards will allow mark-up this way, so I was wondering the best way to mark up a header for a list. looking for standards, and accessibility. what I currently have is: div id=list1 ul class=navlist h3Most Requested/h3 lia href=# title=How to EnrollHow to Enroll/a/li lia href=# title=Lunch Menus Lunch Menus/a/li lia href=# title=Emergency InformationEmergency Information/a/li lia href=# title=CalendarsCalendars/a/li lia href=# title=Contact UsContact Us/a/li lia href=# title=Test ScoresTest Scores/a/li /ul /div thanks -- ::Bruce:: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Search Engines and CSS
Hey all, Does anyone have a definitive answer on whether search engines take any notice of CSS? We have known for a long time that is you have a text coloured the same as its background then search engines will consider this as an attempt to fool them, and lower your pages ranking... but what about doing the same thing with CSS? There would be so many ways to hide text with css, setting display to none, setting the background colour, pushing the padding up so the text gets pushed out of the element, etc... Someone could develop their page full of H1's with dodgy keywords, and simply not display the content of those H1's. We are always told the search engines pay respect to markup, so then this H1 content would be given high relevance. I've been searching around for an answer to this and many people are saying 'maybe' Google does read your css. Does anyone know this for a fact? thanks all, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
Bruce Gilbert wrote: what I currently have is: I'd simply move the H3 out of the list, as it doesn't belong there div id=list1 h3Most Requested/h3 ul class=navlist ... /ul /div -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
Just put the H3 before the list begins! Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
I'm not sure if they do. But what I can tell you is that there is no point at all to try and fool search engines. Search engines (google) will give you more rank if your site is honest, well built and on topic. You can try all the tricks in the world...but the fact remains: if your site is good then people will link to it, if lots of people link to it then google will be more inclined to like your site too. Cheers D Ryan Sabir wrote: Hey all, Does anyone have a definitive answer on whether search engines take any notice of CSS? We have known for a long time that is you have a text coloured the same as its background then search engines will consider this as an attempt to fool them, and lower your pages ranking... but what about doing the same thing with CSS? There would be so many ways to hide text with css, setting display to none, setting the background colour, pushing the padding up so the text gets pushed out of the element, etc... Someone could develop their page full of H1's with dodgy keywords, and simply not display the content of those H1's. We are always told the search engines pay respect to markup, so then this H1 content would be given high relevance. I've been searching around for an answer to this and many people are saying 'maybe' Google does read your css. Does anyone know this for a fact? thanks all, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
At 02:50 PM 1/27/2005, Bruce Gilbert wrote: I don't think w3c standards will allow mark-up this way, so I was wondering the best way to mark up a header for a list. looking for standards, and accessibility. what I currently have is: div id=list1 ul class=navlist h3Most Requested/h3 lia href=# title=How to EnrollHow to Enroll/a/li ... Bruce, As you appear to realize you're not supposed to put an h3 tag (or anything except li) immediately inside a list. Therefore I suggest simply preceding the list with the head: div id=list1 h3Most Requested/h3 ul class=navlist lia href=# title=How to EnrollHow to Enroll/a/li ... Because the h3 comes inside the identified div, you can specify it precisely in your stylesheet without any further markup, giving it and the ul the proper margins padding to hug each other as closely as you need. If for some reason you didn't want to use a head external to the list, you might be able to get away with: div id=list1 ul class=navlist li class=headMost Requested/li lia href=# title=How to EnrollHow to Enroll/a/li ... However this seriously compromises your semantics, losing the head tag and forcing a list item to pose as the heading for the list it's in, which it's not. As I see it, the items of a list all reside on the same semantic level. Perhaps more sensible would be to make the heading an item in a top-level list, within which sits your navlist: div id=list1 ul class=navlistbox liMost Requested ul class=navlist lia href=# title=How to EnrollHow to Enroll/a/li ... /ul /li ... Paul PS: If you can't see the list item How to Enroll it's because you omitted the close-anglebracket after the title attribute. You typed: lia href=# title=How to EnrollHow to Enroll/a/li ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Building with scaling in mind
without looking at Doug's CSS I'd say he is using a fixed width design with heights in ems (if declared), the rest of it is fantastic use of floats. A discussion on ems can be found at ccs-d: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms Doug is a master designer and he is pretty generous in sharing how he gets his results so search his site with something like liquid layout Terrence Wood. Tom Livingston wrote: Hi all, General question for all you seasoned CSS gurus. I was admiring stopdesign.com. I think it's a beautiful layout. But I am having a problem wrapping my head around the concept behind building a page like that so that when text is scaled, the containers don't get all messed up. On stopdesign.com, the containers get deeper as needed but the layout (i.e, the positions of one container next to another) stays solid. How is this done, basically speaking. Percentage widths on containers which are inside a container with a fixed width? I was poking around the source for stopdesign.com ( which is meticulous, by the way ) but like I said, I am having trouble understanding the basic concept of what's being done. Any insight would be appreciated. Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- *** Are you in the Wellington area and interested in web standards? Wellington Web Standards Group inaugural meeting 9 Dec 2004. See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event24.cfm for details *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
Why not use a definition list: dl dtHeading/dt dd ul liitem1/li liitem2/li liitem3/li /ul /dd /dl Using some Hx for list heading when there actually doesn't exist a level for that heading doesn't make much sense... just pollutes the site with strange headings imho. Rene Saarsoo ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
Darren Wood wrote: if your site is good then people will link to it, if lots of people link to it then google will be more inclined to like your site too. Thats how the concept of googlejuice works anyway, the more links a page has pointing to it, the higher up it gets ...Which can be a bummer at times, I've been looking through my logs to see what people are searching for when they land on my site, turns out I usually come #2 or #3 with some major site as #1, even though their content was less relevant to the search query. Should I, perhaps, put an impasioned plea on my site: Please help this site, not by clicking the adverts (because there arn't any), but by linking back to me for free googlejuice ...Its worth a shot -- -David R Cheers D Ryan Sabir wrote: Hey all, Does anyone have a definitive answer on whether search engines take any notice of CSS? We have known for a long time that is you have a text coloured the same as its background then search engines will consider this as an attempt to fool them, and lower your pages ranking... but what about doing the same thing with CSS? There would be so many ways to hide text with css, setting display to none, setting the background colour, pushing the padding up so the text gets pushed out of the element, etc... Someone could develop their page full of H1's with dodgy keywords, and simply not display the content of those H1's. We are always told the search engines pay respect to markup, so then this H1 content would be given high relevance. I've been searching around for an answer to this and many people are saying 'maybe' Google does read your css. Does anyone know this for a fact? thanks all, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
Paul Novitski wrote: Perhaps more sensible would be to make the heading an item in a top-level list, within which sits your navlist: div id=list1 ul class=navlistbox liMost Requested ul class=navlist lia href=# title=How to EnrollHow to Enroll/a/li ... /ul /li ... At that stage, I'd rather go for a definition list (sits back and waits for people to argue the finer points of what is a definition) dl dtMost Requested/dt dda href=# title=How to EnrollHow to Enroll/a/dd dd.../dd ... /dl -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
Rene Saarsoo wrote: Using some Hx for list heading when there actually doesn't exist a level for that heading doesn't make much sense... just pollutes the site with strange headings imho. It depends on the structure of the page, of course. If it would be valid and makes sense within this structure (i.e. if somebody asked for the outline of the page, this heading should be included at that level) I'd opt for headings over DLs. It has certain advantages, for instance screenreader users being able to get a listing of all headings and being able to jump straight to this list. But yes, only if it fits in with the overall structure of the document itself. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to mark up h3 header for list
At 05:37 PM 1/27/2005, Rene Saarsoo wrote: Why not use a definition list: dl dtHeading/dt dd ul liitem1/li liitem2/li liitem3/li /ul /dd /dl Using some Hx for list heading when there actually doesn't exist a level for that heading doesn't make much sense... just pollutes the site with strange headings imho. Or, for that matter: dl dtHeading/dt dditem1/dd dditem2/dd dditem3/dd /dl Rene, I don't quite understand your comment about heading level. How can you know that the list heading isn't a valid level without seeing its context in the page? Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:14:04 +1100, Ryan Sabir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Does anyone have a definitive answer on whether search engines take
any notice of CSS?
I don't think so.
Someone could develop their page full of H1's with dodgy keywords,
and simply not display the content of those H1's. We are always told
the search engines pay respect to markup, so then this H1 content
would be given high relevance.
Sure. You can do it without CSS too - image backgrounds, scripting, etc.
Even if Google read CSS it couldn't tell if text is readable.
Maybe simple #id {display: none;} would do the job, but
what about overflows, positioning and lots of other tricks?
There are ways to trick google and I've seen quite successful attempts,
but it's generally stupid and doesn't pay off.
You need to carefully spam your pages, have huge link farms, etc.
Instead it's better to use this effort to create clean semantic code
and promote your website.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiski
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Re: [WSG] Building with scaling in mind
At 01:30 PM 1/27/2005, Tom Livingston wrote: I was admiring stopdesign.com. I think it's a beautiful layout. But I am having a problem wrapping my head around the concept behind building a page like that so that when text is scaled, the containers don't get all messed up. On stopdesign.com, the containers get deeper as needed but the layout (i.e, the positions of one container next to another) stays solid. Tom, Looks like stopdesign is using fixed width containers, so when the text enlarges the page stretches vertically but not horizontally. I wouldn't, however, classify this as a site that can withstand text-resizing with qualifying that statement. If I increase my text size in Firefox with more than four + keystrokes, the text blocks begin to overlap one another and it quickly becomes unreadable. This implicitly says, I'll accommodate you if your vision's a little bit bad, but if you're really hard of seeing you're not welcome here. I don't mean to be harsh -- my websites have these and other accessibility issues -- I guess there are practical limits to everything. However, stopdesign could have let the content column expand to the width of the browser window, allowing the user to enlarge the fonts a little more before things broke. Not wishing to be hypercritical; I just wanted to moderate your admiration for an excellent-but-not-perfect page layout. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
I remember reading a quote from a Google tech. stating that while their system is capable of reading/interpreting CSS, they don't do so due to the excess load it would create. I also remember the same quote mentioning something about sites only getting penalised if someone lodges a complaint against them (re: CSS hiding of h1's etc). Unfortunately I have no idea _where_ I read this, so I guess you'll have to throw it on the pile of 'hearsay' Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
Take a look at some fought over keyphrases like 'website development' in Google UK. You'll find many sites spamming with irrelevant noscript, off-screen absolute positioned text, minute text, hidden layers, even some cretins with WOW (white-on-white) text. And you know what? Google doesn't do a damn thing about it. They're far too concerned with AdWords and AdSense. Hot markets are awash with spammed keyphrases and whole swathes of junk keyword-littered text. Which suggests either they don't or can't factor CSS into the spam algos or they simply aren't bothered. Draw your own conclusions. Cheers all, Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.visidigm.com Administrator Guild of Accessible Web Designers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gawds.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] befuddled over IE with Floats
I'm sure I'm overlooking something simple (hopefully). My floats (right column) mess up in Mac IE 5.2.3. I don't have a Windows machine so I'm unsure if it is messed up in IE there too. Probably is. Any help or advice on a fix for this is welcome. XHTML Page: http://sonze.com/dvre/who.html CSS: http://sonze.com/dvre/css/internal.css Thank you! Shane Helm sonzeDesignStudio www.sonze.com
Re: [WSG] Imaginary Borders
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:39:42 -0800, Chris Kennon wrote: In the following code the tr#n rules are not taking. I've looked around and have no reason for this failure. Would someone assist? Hi Chris - you seem to have a space between tr and #... in your selector. If so, try it without the space. Life. Love. Peace. David -- David Hucklesby, on 1/27/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Accessability of developing multimedia web sites with audio , video, and flash content
Hi. looking to build a multimedia web site, with audio, video, and flash content. how do i make this site accessable? are the tools i use including dream weaver, flash, php, and cold fusion accessable? if so, send me the links to where i can download them. also how do i make like for example flash buttons, links, graphics accessable to users of screen reading programs. want to make my sight to sighted users as well as blind users. so e-mail me off list with any answers, tips, and suggestions. cheers marvin.
RE: [WSG] Accessability of developing multimedia web sites with audio , video, and flash content
Such a lot of info can only be found in one place. Try the resources section of the web standards group website. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of marvin hunkinSent: Friday, January 28, 2005 3:13 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Accessability of developing multimedia web sites with audio , video, and flash content Hi. looking to build a multimedia web site, with audio, video, and flash content. how do i make this site accessable? are the tools i use including dream weaver, flash, php, and cold fusion accessable? if so, send me the links to where i can download them. also how do i make like for example flash buttons, links, graphics accessable to users of screen reading programs. want to make my sight to sighted users as well as blind users. so e-mail me off list with any answers, tips, and suggestions. cheers marvin.
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
It is my understanding that Google doesn't parse or index .css files, let alone test the whether the css modifies to HTML in a manner designed to manipulate rankings. Try it yourself. Try and find your own websites .css file indexed in Google by searching on the full filename of the .css file. However, as Andrew mentioned - the biggest risk of detection is human detection and reporting. Your competitors are the threat. Whether Google acts on specific spam reports - that's the risk you can take. Feeling Lucky? :) Best regards Chris Dimmock Cogentis Search Engine Marketing http://www.cogentis.com.au/ On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:28:43 -, Mike Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Take a look at some fought over keyphrases like 'website development' in Google UK. You'll find many sites spamming with irrelevant noscript, off-screen absolute positioned text, minute text, hidden layers, even some cretins with WOW (white-on-white) text. And you know what? Google doesn't do a damn thing about it. They're far too concerned with AdWords and AdSense. Hot markets are awash with spammed keyphrases and whole swathes of junk keyword-littered text. Which suggests either they don't or can't factor CSS into the spam algos or they simply aren't bothered. Draw your own conclusions. Cheers all, Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.visidigm.com Administrator Guild of Accessible Web Designers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gawds.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Indented text
OK here's the thing... I want to put an image on the left of some text, and have the text not wrap back under the image after it goes past it. Here is an example, if you imagine my image being where the XX's are. xxx My text is here xxx and the sentence continues xxx longer and longer and stays at the same indent no matter how long it gets I've done this quite simply in Internet Explorer by putting the text in a 'display:inline-block;' span, but this display type is not supported on FireFox. Is there a cross platform way of achieving this without resorting to the dreaded table? thanks! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Indented text
Hi Ryan
I want to put an image on the left of some text, and have the text not
wrap back under the image after it goes past it. Here is an example,
if you imagine my image being where the XX's are.
You could try something like this:
div class=whatever
img src=whatever alt=whatever /
pblah blah blah blah/p
/div
css:
div.whatever img {
display:block;
float:left;
width: 200px;
}
div.whatever p {
margin-left: 220px; /* image width + a little extra */
}
Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
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