Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
script var msg=Don't Look Now; /script a href=# onclick=alert(msg)Don't Look Now/abr / Very smart Bruce. The other method's more compact, but that's some good lateral thinking. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Accessible dropdown menus
Hi all, I have a client that insists on having a dropdown menu. I have tried talking them out of it, but no. So I have to implement one of the web gadgets that I detest most of all. Fortunately only a basic single level vertical dropdown is needed. I've looked at some techniques but haven't found one that I'm completely happy with. Here are the requirements: * Semantic markup (i.e. nested unordered lists) * Graceful degradation when support for CSS and/or JavaScript is missing * Keyboard navigable, preferrably with optionally expandable menus. * Top level menu items should be real links * Menus drop down on hover (obviously) Some of the techniques I've looked at: Suckerfish http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ Neat, but not keyboard friendly Ultimate Drop Down Menu http://www.brothercake.com/dropdown/ Fully featured, but s-l-o-w. Overkill for this simple menu. YADM http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm/ Close, but when tabbing through the menu the currently focused link can't be seen unless you first expand the menu. Easymenu http://www.easymenu.co.uk/ Also close, but menus are expanded automatically, forcing keyboard users to tab through all links. Neither of these techniques seem to get it all right. At least as far as I can tell. So, have any of you implemented a horizontal, single level dropdown menu that you are completely happy with when it comes to accessibility? /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Hi Rob For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip links. Very nice. I also like what Molly has done http://www.molly.com/ Use the tab key - 2nd tab -- Ben Hamilton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hamilton.id.au/?:-) Need a web site hosted? I was fed up with the poor service I was getting and decided that I could do better. Here it is: http://dynamicwebhosting.com.au/?referrer=emailsighidau ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus
Hi, I am not shure is my menu realisation fit to your requierments, but you could take a look: http://siter.com.au/dmitry/dyn-3-menu/index.html On 4/14/05, Roger Johansson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I have a client that insists on having a dropdown menu. I have tried talking them out of it, but no. So I have to implement one of the web gadgets that I detest most of all. Fortunately only a basic single level vertical dropdown is needed. I've looked at some techniques but haven't found one that I'm completely happy with. Here are the requirements: * Semantic markup (i.e. nested unordered lists) * Graceful degradation when support for CSS and/or JavaScript is missing * Keyboard navigable, preferrably with optionally expandable menus. * Top level menu items should be real links * Menus drop down on hover (obviously) Some of the techniques I've looked at: Suckerfish http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ Neat, but not keyboard friendly Ultimate Drop Down Menu http://www.brothercake.com/dropdown/ Fully featured, but s-l-o-w. Overkill for this simple menu. YADM http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm/ Close, but when tabbing through the menu the currently focused link can't be seen unless you first expand the menu. Easymenu http://www.easymenu.co.uk/ Also close, but menus are expanded automatically, forcing keyboard users to tab through all links. Neither of these techniques seem to get it all right. At least as far as I can tell. So, have any of you implemented a horizontal, single level dropdown menu that you are completely happy with when it comes to accessibility? /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Best regards, Dmitry Baranovskiy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus
Hi, I used on recently from Alist-Apart (www.alistapart.com) There is a new article specially on the advantages and disadvantages of drop downs. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ - all code inclusive. Jeremy Dowe Web Designer / Librarian 6/43 Devoy St, Ashgrove Qld 4060. H = +61 7 3366 5797 M = 0402 900 458 E = [EMAIL PROTECTED] W = www.jeronimo.net.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dmitry Baranovskiy Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:07 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus Hi, I am not shure is my menu realisation fit to your requierments, but you could take a look: http://siter.com.au/dmitry/dyn-3-menu/index.html On 4/14/05, Roger Johansson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I have a client that insists on having a dropdown menu. I have tried talking them out of it, but no. So I have to implement one of the web gadgets that I detest most of all. Fortunately only a basic single level vertical dropdown is needed. I've looked at some techniques but haven't found one that I'm completely happy with. Here are the requirements: * Semantic markup (i.e. nested unordered lists) * Graceful degradation when support for CSS and/or JavaScript is missing * Keyboard navigable, preferrably with optionally expandable menus. * Top level menu items should be real links * Menus drop down on hover (obviously) Some of the techniques I've looked at: Suckerfish http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ Neat, but not keyboard friendly Ultimate Drop Down Menu http://www.brothercake.com/dropdown/ Fully featured, but s-l-o-w. Overkill for this simple menu. YADM http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm/ Close, but when tabbing through the menu the currently focused link can't be seen unless you first expand the menu. Easymenu http://www.easymenu.co.uk/ Also close, but menus are expanded automatically, forcing keyboard users to tab through all links. Neither of these techniques seem to get it all right. At least as far as I can tell. So, have any of you implemented a horizontal, single level dropdown menu that you are completely happy with when it comes to accessibility? /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Best regards, Dmitry Baranovskiy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
OK, I have now enabled full keyboard access (system preferences), but when I use the tab key in both sites listed below nothing happens. It is only when I hover over the area where the navigation should appear that each link appears. For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip links. Very nice. I also like what Molly has done http://www.molly.com/ Use the tab key - 2nd tab Can anyone suggest what may be wrong with my set up as I imagine this is *not* what is meant to happen. The user would have to guess where these links are using the method I currently need to use! Sarah ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Hi all Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used fixed font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or formulas to convert from: FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-SIZE: 22px; FONT-SIZE: 10px; FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-SIZE: 16px; etc to more accessible font size units -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services. Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ... http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Neerav wrote:
Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used
fixed font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em
equivalents or formulas to convert from:
FONT-SIZE: 11px;
etc
to more accessible font size units
The Kubrick template at http://binarybonsai.com/kubrick/ has a css file
that says:
code
body {
font-size: 62.5%; /* Resets 1em to 10px */
/code
I don't know where he got that conversion from tho.
Ben.
--
Ben Hamilton
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://hamilton.id.au/?:-)
Need a web site hosted? I was fed up with the poor service I was
getting and decided that I could do better. Here it is:
http://dynamicwebhosting.com.au/?referrer=emailsighidau
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RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Neerav wrote: was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or formulas to convert from: FONT-SIZE: 11px, 22px, 10px, 14px and 16px. To go from pixels to em's, simply divide by 16. HTH aj ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
On 14 Apr 2005 at 15:35, Bruce Morrison wrote: var msg=Don't Look Now; /script a href=# onclick=alert(msg)Don't Look Now/abr / This works. But what to do if the message also needs inside? Make it generic: var msg=Don + String.fromCharCode(39) + use + String.fromCharCode(34) + too + String.fromCharCode(34) + much ... produces Don't use too much ... Best Regards Juergen Auer http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
On 4/14/05 2:51 AM Juergen Auer [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: var msg=Don't Look Now; /script a href=# onclick=alert(msg)Don't Look Now/abr / This works. But what to do if the message also needs inside? Can we keep the javascript cr*p off this list? Thanks! Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes - THREAD CLOSED
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Lea de Groot wrote, On 14.04.2005 04:50: I've seen a couple of sites with a very nice tab interface whereby the 'skip' link became visible on the first tab, but was hidden if that didnt happen. I like the idea and used it myself in a recent procject, but I've never been able to get Opera cooperating. a:focus works in other browser but Opera seems not to use these styles when keyboard activated via a or q. Does anyone know more about this issue? Susanne -- http://sujag.de - Webentwicklung und -beratung D-10119 Berlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
This table by reed design might be helpful: http://www.reeddesign.co.uk/test/points-pixels.html kemie ...:| kemie |:... .:| www.monolinea.com |:.
Re: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Alex and kemie I tip my hat to you, your advice worked perfectly :-) -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services. Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ... http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav Alex James wrote: Neerav wrote: was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or formulas to convert from: FONT-SIZE: 11px, 22px, 10px, 14px and 16px. To go from pixels to em's, simply divide by 16. HTH aj ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Easy forms, uneasy Gecko
There is a very easy way of doing forms without tables:
label {display: inline-block; width: 10em;}
and it works in IE/win, IE/mac, Opera and Safari,
but totally fails in Gecko...
Does anyone know how to get it working in Gecko?
I prefer doing forms that way, because I'm styling code
that I don't have full control of and I don't like to struggle
with floats'n'clearing.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiski
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[WSG] newspaper format
Hi Guys and gals, I have been trying to present the information relating to a novel in a more interesting style than 'just text' or indeed three columns, and have experimented with a sort of newspaper style. The newspaper is a fictitious one which is mentioned often in the novel, and my effort can be seen (in isolation from the rest of the site) at: http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/bren/newspaper/news.html The original design I produced and am modifying can be seen at www.novelnovella.com . I have used floats (of course!) and the 'layout is supposed to work like: banner header leftcol rightcol banner leftcol rightcol etc I would be most grateful for any general feedback : does it work as a design? Does it work (esp on MAC) as it's supposed to? Is there anything glaringly bad about it? You get the idea. It works for me in FF1.0, IE6, IE5.5, Opera 7, all on PC. Many thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] newspaper format
At 04:44 AM 4/14/2005, designer wrote: I have been trying to present the information relating to a novel in a more interesting style than 'just text' or indeed three columns, and have experimented with a sort of newspaper style. The newspaper is a fictitious one which is mentioned often in the novel, and my effort can be seen (in isolation from the rest of the site) at: http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/bren/newspaper/news.html Bob, Your two-column 'newspaper' format works for me cosmetically but not as markup. I would replace this markup: div class=colleft pFirst paragraph.br / br / Second paragraph./p /div with this: div class=colleft pFirst paragraph./p pSecond paragraph./p /div You seem to be using the line-break tags to control presentation from html, but I can't see why you'd need to do so given your XHTML+CSS toolset. Tangentially, you might be interested to see John D. Berry's recent work with a two-column digital book (in PDF format, not html): his article on the design process is at http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/22736.html Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
On 14 Apr 2005, at 7:22 pm, Susanne Jaeger wrote: I like the idea and used it myself in a recent procject, but I've never been able to get Opera cooperating. a:focus works in other browser but Opera seems not to use these styles when keyboard activated via a or q. Does anyone know more about this issue? a:focus is simply not implemented in Opera. It uses its own scheme, but doesn't listen to the css :focus. It only works partly on form elements, I think. Philippe ---/--- Philippe Wittenbergh now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/ code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/ IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Easy forms, uneasy Gecko
On 14 Apr 2005, at 8:29 pm, Kornel Lesinski wrote:
There is a very easy way of doing forms without tables:
label {display: inline-block; width: 10em;}
and it works in IE/win, IE/mac, Opera and Safari,
but totally fails in Gecko...
Does anyone know how to get it working in Gecko?
You can try display:-moz-inline-box, that is an internal alias to
inline-block that works sometimes.
Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
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[WSG] Alistapart vs Digital-Web
Alistapart is a leader in wd on-line magazine. But what do you think about www.digital-web.com? It's growing everyday, maybe the best navigation-system on the web, a nice approach to web design, simple and complete. So: what do you think about? :) P.S. Logically, I still love ala.
RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Hello Neerav,
You can even use em unit for your element dimensions too. So all your
layout can zoom in/out too.
The easy way I know is to define what 1em is by telling first in pixels :
html {
font-size: 10px !important; /* understood and respected by browsers
except for IE that will take the last identical attribute */
font-size: x-small; /* IE equivalent for 10px */
}
And then tell the next element to appear in your code :
body {
font-size: 1em;
}
And then, if you want a div to be 200 by 345 pixels :
div {
width: 20em;
height: 34.5em;
}
Or in case only height should be zoomable
div {
width: 200px;
height: 34.5em;
}
So now when you use text size / increase (zoom), all your element will zoom
too.
Hope it helps
Hugues Brunelle
Concepteur graphique
//
ECHO tridimension
2139 rue Masson
Montréal QC H2H 1A8
1-(514)5211360
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neerav
Sent: April 14, 2005 03:21
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Hi all
Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used fixed
font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or
formulas to convert from:
FONT-SIZE: 11px;
FONT-SIZE: 22px;
FONT-SIZE: 10px;
FONT-SIZE: 14px;
FONT-SIZE: 16px;
etc
to more accessible font size units
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
**
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**
**
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Re: [WSG] Easy forms, uneasy Gecko
Kornel,
Am Donnerstag, 14. April 2005 um 13:29:47 haben Sie geschrieben:
KL There is a very easy way of doing forms without tables:
KL label {display: inline-block; width: 10em;}
KL I prefer doing forms that way, because I'm styling code
KL that I don't have full control of and I don't like to struggle
KL with floats'n'clearing.
I guess there is just one way, that won't please you:
label { display: inline }
Like that you would loose alignment.
But if it is a simple form with just pairs of label - input you could
use floats and the Easy Clearing Method:
(http://positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html)
label {
display: block;
width: 10em;
}
input:after {
content: .;
display: block;
height: 0;
clear: both;
visibility: hidden;
}
I think this method will fail if you have to inputs in a row. However,
I never tried it, maybe it works.
Martin
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes - THREAD CLOSED - EXPLANATION
My apologies for not explaining the thread closure earlier. I closed the thread due to the aggressive nature of the last post, not due to the topic of javascript. My concern was that the post could have lead to a possible flame war and this is definitely something we do not want to see on this list. The aim of the overall group and the list is to help others. This can only be achieved if we remain civil. Just so we are all clear: 1. EcmaScript (and Javascript) is a standard and a valid discussion point on this list - just as valid as any CSS discussions. 2. If you have a concern about a thread, please do not vent your wrath on the list. Instead, let Peter and I know. We may not respond immediately, but we will get back to you. If the thread is based on a topic you have no interest in, then there are many ways to deal with it locally, such as applying filters on incoming mail. Again, apologies for any confusion my thread closure may have caused. Russ This works. But what to do if the message also needs inside? Can we keep the javascript cr*p off this list? Thanks! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Easy forms, uneasy Gecko
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:35:31 +0100, Philippe Wittenbergh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
There is a very easy way of doing forms without tables:
label {display: inline-block; width: 10em;}
and it works in IE/win, IE/mac, Opera and Safari,
but totally fails in Gecko...
Does anyone know how to get it working in Gecko?
You can try display:-moz-inline-box, that is an internal alias to
inline-block that works sometimes.
It's buggy, but that's better than nothing. Thanks.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiski
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
On Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:50pm, Lea de Groot wrote: I've seen a couple of sites with a very nice tab interface whereby the 'skip' link became visible on the first tab, but was hidden if that didnt happen. I think Mike Pepper does it at http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/ That's the method I use too. I like to make sure the skip link is very visible (once the tab key is hit). Here's an example from one of my recent sites. http://www.cudahyfamilylibrary.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Need some CSS help
Hello WSG, I have some problems with a design I have been working with (working on it for over a month now), and I have looked at it so long, I am just lost as to where to go next to solve my problems with it. The mockup of the design is here: http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/guiR3.jpg The page, coded in XHTML 1.0 Transitional (validates): http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/ The CSS validates: http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/pa.css I have utilized the * hack to make some of the areas work in IE (which I really don't want to do). I have not tested with any other browser other than Firefox and IE6 (at this point). I must get this working on those, and all browsers as soon as possible. PROBLEMS: 1. I need the design to look like the mockup, except it must be fluid, not fixed (as the mockup looks). I think I have gotten that, but when sized down the right mid content drops. 2. I have clear: both used many times in the right content area to make the footer rest at the bottom. I can't figure out why I just can't get it down there without that. 3. IE is munching the headings for the boxes (especially the news box and it is fried in FF too - however it is coded the same as all the others that DO work) and I have changed, tweaked and tested new things to make them work right, and am at a loss. 4. The Top Rated Games box, I have had to put a absolute height in - I did not have that there earlier on in the coding process and it worked -- I changed something and now it does not, so when the window is resized, the buttons fall out of the div. I am sure when (and if) anyone looks, there will be LOTS more problems that need attention, but I am just totally lost - as I said, I have been working on this layout for over a month and just can't see things clearly anymore. It all looks the same to me now... :( I would love if someone here can help me to figure out what in the world I am doing wrong. I am willing to pay for someone's time to assist me in getting this taken care of as my client has been waiting forever on this. Please and thank you so much! Lori Leach ZenfulCreations http://www.zenfulcreations.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] newspaper format
Thanks Paul,
- Original Message -
From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: webstandards group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] newspaper format
[snip]
Bob,
Your two-column 'newspaper' format works for me cosmetically but not as
markup. I would replace this markup:
div class=colleft
pFirst paragraph.br /
br /
Second paragraph./p
/div
with this:
div class=colleft
pFirst paragraph./p
pSecond paragraph./p
/div
You seem to be using the line-break tags to control presentation from
html,
but I can't see why you'd need to do so given your XHTML+CSS toolset.
You are right of course, and I knew I had work to do on getting things
'proper'. I used the breaks as an easy stop gap whilst sorting the layout -
the paras were reduced to no spacing because of my *{margin : 0; padding :
0} declaration at the top of the CSS. I've added a bottom margin to the
paras now, and deleted the breaks.
Thanks too for the John D. Berry link too - Interesting!
Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Hi Mike,
Only partially at the moment because I have no time :(
But, if you don't mind the background image problem, my actual Website is a
good exemple : http://www.echo3d.com (and if you go under portfolio, click a
project, and look at the content image. It use the same technique so you'll
be able to scale it, of course quality drops when you do but as soon as IE
support entirely PNG24 I'll be able to put good resolution pictures and
forget about quality).
My under dev page is more like it http://dev.echo3d.com/services (it's the
only page available at the moment)
Cheers,
H.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Foskett
Sent: April 14, 2005 08:29
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Hi Hugues,
Do you have an online version demonstrating this technique?
Mike 2k:)2
Mike Foskett
Web Standards, Accessibility Testing Consultant Multimedia Publishing
and Production British Educational Communications and Technology Agency
(Becta) Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: 02476 416994 Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
Fax: 02476 411410
www.becta.org.uk
-Original Message-
From: Hugues Brunelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 14 April 2005 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Hello Neerav,
You can even use em unit for your element dimensions too. So all your
layout can zoom in/out too. The easy way I know is to define what 1em is by
telling first in pixels :
html {
font-size: 10px !important; /* understood and respected by browsers
except for IE that will take the last identical attribute */
font-size: x-small; /* IE equivalent for 10px */
}
And then tell the next element to appear in your code :
body {
font-size: 1em;
}
And then, if you want a div to be 200 by 345 pixels :
div {
width: 20em;
height: 34.5em;
}
Or in case only height should be zoomable
div {
width: 200px;
height: 34.5em;
}
So now when you use text size / increase (zoom), all your element will zoom
too. Hope it helps
Hugues Brunelle
Concepteur graphique
//
ECHO tridimension
2139 rue Masson
Montréal QC H2H 1A8
1-(514)5211360
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neerav
Sent: April 14, 2005 03:21
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
Hi all
Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used fixed
font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or
formulas to convert from:
FONT-SIZE: 11px;
FONT-SIZE: 22px;
FONT-SIZE: 10px;
FONT-SIZE: 14px;
FONT-SIZE: 16px;
etc
to more accessible font size units
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services. Recent
projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
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Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus
On 14 apr 2005, at 09.07, Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote: I am not shure is my menu realisation fit to your requierments, but you could take a look: http://siter.com.au/dmitry/dyn-3-menu/index.html On 14 apr 2005, at 09.58, Jeremy Dowe wrote: There is a new article specially on the advantages and disadvantages of drop downs. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ - all code inclusive. Hi, Thanks for responding, but nope, neither of those is what I'm looking for. /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize - resizable font size
was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or formulas to convert from: FONT-SIZE: 11px, 22px, 10px, 14px and 16px. To go from pixels to em's, simply divide by 16. Is this a cross-browser, cross-platform formula? Is there a chart of the standard settings for browsers, and possibly for the common user settings? -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Need some CSS help
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lori Leach Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:10 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Need some CSS help Hello WSG, http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/guiR3.jpg : http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/ The CSS validates: http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/pa.css PROBLEMS: 1. I need the design to look like the mockup, except it must be fluid, not fixed (as the mockup looks). I think I have gotten that, but when sized down the right mid content drops. 2. I have clear: both used many times in the right content area to make the footer rest at the bottom. I can't figure out why I just can't get it down there without that. 3. IE is munching the headings for the boxes (especially the news box and it is fried in FF too - however it is coded the same as all the others that DO work) and I have changed, tweaked and tested new things to make them work right, and am at a loss. 4. The Top Rated Games box, I have had to put a absolute height in - I did not have that there earlier on in the coding process and it worked -- I changed something and now it does not, so when the window is resized, the buttons fall out of the div. ** First look: 1. 3 column setup with header and footer. Two outside columns position:absolute, fixed width. Center column has a flexible banner and top text with two columns under. The left sub column is fixed width. The right flexible. In other words, most of the central column stretches. The right sub column drops because something has to give. That is, the fixed width columns can't compress only that right column can. That's why at higher resolutions only the middle column header and right sub column stretch. Semi-flexible design. 2. Cleared out all the extra clear:both before the footer. No problem in either FF or IE6. 3. Don't see any munching. The images look the same on the page and in the file. 4. Took out the height on top rated and nothing happened up to 1600 on the resolution. Things only looked bad when the screen couldn't handle the fixed widhs. So, it looks ok in terms of what you've done. And as you say it validates. drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
On 13 Apr 2005 at 15:26, tee wrote: I do not code with (#x...) entities for unicode Chinese. I did make sure every character is unicode-able. Everything display properly in other browsers except IE 5 Mac. I have no way to find out as all characters are in ? in the source code. Hi tee, my idea was: The IE5/Mac shows UTF-8 wrong - perhaps he will show the corresponding character entity (#x ...;) instead. The hope (may be wrong) is that the IE5 finds the correct font and the glyphe alone. An example: At http://www.lotusseeds.com/IE_Mac/example.html you had marked a wrong character after the word 'Web' (the first character in the next line). Copying this character from http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html and checking the codepoint says this has to be the character with the hex-code 6807. So creating a page with #x6807; in the body may show it correct. If not ... then my idea was wrong. Best Regards Juergen Auer http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] implementing index and end-notes on the web
I'm converting a book to a website and am mulling over various ways to implement the text, index, and end-notes in web-standards, accessible XHTML and CSS, potentially with the aid of scripting. I welcome your feedback and links to existing examples on the net. Index format Here's an example of an index entry with both general page references and three subentries: Carroll, Lewis, 40-50, 66 Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 5, 24, 334 childhood, 12-17 Through the Looking-Glass, 23, 103, 334 In print, an index is page-based: it cites each page or page-range that contains one or more occurrences of an indexed term (or discussion of the topic to which the term refers even if the term itself doesn't appear). When I'm researching something in a book, I'll typically go to the index to look up the term, and then -- saving my place in the index with a finger so I can flip back forth for multiple lookups -- to each of the target pages to eyeball-search for the topic. This model works, not perfectly but well enough, because a paper page is a relatively short chunk of text to scan. For the web I need to use a different model. First of all, I'm thinking that paper pages won't translate to HTML pages. Hard pagination every N lines doesn't work well in HTML unless the font-size is fixed, and I want to leave the text resizable to be accessible. When the reader resizes the text, hard page-breaks that fall in mid-sentence cause pages to end awkwardly in mid-line, while paginating only on paragraph breaks creates pages of uneven lengths making for ugly printout. Therefore I'm tempted to paginate the book only at the end of each chapter. This might require the reader to scroll down through each chapter which can tire the eyes, but it lends itself well to printing. Without normal paper-style pages, how does an index work? - Lacking page numbers, one could use the standard index format but refer to chapter numbers instead. However, a chapter seems too large and not specific enough a location. - Readers can search for specific instances of a term using their browser controls, however that doesn't work when a term might appear in a variety of forms (Lewis Carroll | Lewis | Carroll | Carroll, L. | her son | Dear L., | etc.). - One could refer instead to the paragraph that contains the indexed term. A paragraph is just right, but brings up the problem of how to number paragraphs in a cosmetically acceptable and non-intrusive way. - In hypertext, displayable location numbers can be considered irrelevant. The linking between words in text and index entries is subtextual (href=), providing other visible/audible cues to the reader: words in text can be styled typically to indicate that they're hyperlinks and index entries can provide some other hyperlinked symbol to represent each instance: a graphic symbol or an instance number: Carroll, Lewis, LINK, LINK Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, LINK, LINK, LINK childhood--(itself a link) Through the Looking-Glass, LINK, LINK or: Carroll, Lewis, 1-7, 8 Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 9, 13, 17 childhood, 10-12 Through the Looking-Glass, 14, 15, 16 In this latter model, does a range of instance numbers work for the reader in the same way as a range of page numbers? = Index user interface: = The user interface for an index could be implemented in a variety of ways: - Place text and index on separate pages, and merely hyperlink between them, using local #anchors to position the selected text in the viewport. The anchor for a word in text could be located at the term itself, so it appears on the first line of the viewport, or at the beginning of the current paragraph. - When a word in text is clicked, bring up the index entries for that term in a pop-up window. This is an unhappy solution with respect to accessibility advertising-suppression preferences. - When a word in text is clicked, bring up a faux window (an absolutely-positioned div) overlaying the text that contains the index entries for that term -- similar to the context-menu one might invoke by right-clicking on a link. This requires javascript, so a robust fall-back system should work in the absence of client-side scripting. - Keep an empty sidebar for display of index entries, footnotes, etc. when linked text is clicked. Ditto above re JavaScript. - Enable the user to highlight (and de-highlight) all instances of an indexed term in the text -- similar to Google PDF-to-HTML result pages. If all instances of each term are assigned a unique class name in the markup, toggling such highlighting would be easy using CSS a touch of javascript. == End-notes: == A problem related to indexing, but simpler, is that of end-notes or footnotes.
Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus
Maybe this is what you're looking for http://www.udm4.com/ (but I guess you're already aware their existence) Kim Roger Johansson wrote: On 14 apr 2005, at 09.07, Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote: I am not shure is my menu realisation fit to your requierments, but you could take a look: http://siter.com.au/dmitry/dyn-3-menu/index.html On 14 apr 2005, at 09.58, Jeremy Dowe wrote: There is a new article specially on the advantages and disadvantages of drop downs. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ - all code inclusive. Hi, Thanks for responding, but nope, neither of those is what I'm looking for. /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus
Roger Johansson wrote: * Semantic markup (i.e. nested unordered lists) * Graceful degradation when support for CSS and/or JavaScript is missing * Keyboard navigable, preferrably with optionally expandable menus. * Top level menu items should be real links * Menus drop down on hover (obviously) Hi Roger, I have something that (I believe) fits #1, #2, #3 (not all browsers though), #4 and #5 http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp HTH, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] implementing index and end-notes on the web
On 14 Apr 2005 at 11:46, Paul Novitski wrote: I'm converting a book to a website and am mulling over various ways to implement the text, index, and end-notes in web-standards, accessible XHTML and CSS, potentially with the aid of scripting. Hi Paul, before doing all these later things I would create the source or a (test-) part of it as Xml-File with some new elements (footnote, endnote, word [Carol, L] which should be part of the index [Carroll, Lewis] and so on). Later you can create different Xsl-Files to create different Html- Outputs and test all these things. So a single Xml-file holds the content, different Xsl-files are layers to produce different outputs. And if you want to test a new output you have only to change the Xsl-Transformation, not all the content. Best Regards Juergen Auer http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Alistapart vs Digital-Web
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:39:21 +0200, Piero Fissore wrote: Alistapart is a leader in wd on-line magazine. But what do you think about www.digital-web.com http://www.digital-web.com? It's growing everyday, maybe the best navigation-system on the web, a nice approach to web design, simple and complete. I'm an inclusionist. I read both. ;) Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] implementing index and end-notes on the web
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:46:10 -0700, Paul Novitski wrote: I'm converting a book to a website and am mulling over various ways to implement the text, index, and end-notes in web-standards, accessible XHTML and CSS, potentially with the aid of scripting. I welcome your feedback and links to existing examples on the net. While I think the issues you are considering are more Information Architecture than Standards issues, the implementation can certainly be standards-based. Index format Here's an example of an index entry with both general page references and three subentries: Carroll, Lewis, 40-50, 66 Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 5, 24, 334 childhood, 12-17 Through the Looking-Glass, 23, 103, 334 My first thought is to put a name tag on each paragraph (I think it is only NN4 which doesn't handle this; in the unlikely event that this is a significant part of your user base you'd need to insert a named anchor tag instead) Then have the numbers link through to those marked paras. Exactly what the best item to display in the index is hard to say - paragraph number rather than the now irrelevent page number? Carroll, Lewis, LINK, LINK Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, LINK, LINK, LINK childhood--(itself a link) Through the Looking-Glass, LINK, LINK I would consistently place Anchors on the numbers after, rather sometimes on the word and sometimes on the index item In this latter model, does a range of instance numbers work for the reader in the same way as a range of page numbers? Yes, it would take them to the beginning of the instance and give them an indication of how long the tract is. == End-notes: == A problem related to indexing, but simpler, is that of end-notes or footnotes. Typically in print a footnote appears at the bottom of the current page, whereas end-notes are clustered at the end of a chapter or the book. You have more options than this - consider ABBR and ACRONYM title attributes too for very short notes. Also short paragraphs appearing and disappearing with javascript/css, inserted into the text appropriately. HIH Lea ~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane - please contact me for CV -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Client wants flashing text
When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis, what do you do or tell them? Jeff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Client wants flashing text
Jeff Oien wrote: When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis, what do you do or tell them? a) it's not the 1991 anymore b) it can cause seizures in users with photosensitive epilepsy c) there are far better ways to add emphasis (most involving good design, creating visual hierarchies, etc) -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Client wants flashing text
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:48:28 +0100, Jeff Oien [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis, what do you do or tell them? That he's not a professional designer. He has hired one that makes right decisions for him. Blinking text is a step in that direction: http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.tastydirt.com/zen/sample.css but he'd probably prefer other zen garden styles :) BTW: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030427 -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] newspaper format
Paul Novitski wrote: div class=colleft You should avoid presentational class names. May be overkill, but possibly opt for something like class=firstsection -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: OK, I have now enabled full keyboard access (system preferences), but when I use the tab key in both sites listed below nothing happens. It is only when I hover over the area where the navigation should appear that each link appears. I'm guessing it may be this: You need to change a setting in Safari for that. Go to preferences, then in the advanced tab change do not highlight links as you press the Tab key to Highlight links as you press the Tab key from http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/07/quiz-242-now-you-see-me-now-you-dont/#comment-156 -- Patrick H. Lauke _ redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Looking for some nicely designed web apps...
Been asked to do the front end visual design of a web app a local company is doing. Just looking for some great designs to get ideas from. Any links appreciated. Thanks, David ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Looking for some nicely designed web apps...
David wrote: Been asked to do the front end visual design of a web app a local company is doing. Just looking for some great designs to get ideas from. Any links appreciated. Would help to know what type of web app you mean. http://www.basecamphq.com/ is nice; http://www.blogger.com/ can be classed as a web app ... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Looking for some nicely designed web apps...
If you are looking for inspirational eye-candy that are also good example of coding: http://www.webstandardsawards.com/ http://www.stylegala.com ¤ devendra ¤ David wrote: Been asked to do the front end visual design of a web app a local company is doing. Just looking for some great designs to get ideas from. Any links appreciated. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
One small thing that bothers me with the tab to make skip nav visible approach. What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the [skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement. I'd like to know what a web savvy physically disabled person thinks about this technique (which other that this small concern I really like). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.11 - Release Date: 14/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Ben Wrighton wrote: What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the [skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement. That would probably depend on why they came to the site in the first place. Also, as most mainstream sites don't actually have anything like skip links, I fear they'd say bugger it quite often when going online... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom? Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them? Just a thought... And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter compliancy to every living mammal on the planet. R - Original Message - From: Ben Wrighton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:03 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility One small thing that bothers me with the tab to make skip nav visible approach. What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the [skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement. I'd like to know what a web savvy physically disabled person thinks about this technique (which other that this small concern I really like). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.11 - Release Date: 14/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites. I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to struggle on if the information is very important or only available at one particular site. When David Woodbridge's was demonstrating a poorly built site to the WSG last year he commented: I am doing this to demonstrate the problems. In real life I would never really go this far into a site this bad, I would have left on the fist page. Think of it in other terms. If there was a shop with major physical barriers (like being forced to climb a ladder just to get into the shop), and the shop keeper was never available, would you hang around long? Compare that to a shop nearby with easy access and friendly staff. Russ Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom? Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them? Just a thought... And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter compliancy to every living mammal on the planet. R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Looking for some nicely designed web apps...
They mentioned basecamphq as something nice - Web apps like that ... I know about stylegala and css vault , etc, etc... More stuff like basecamphq is what Im after... Thanks Would help to know what type of web app you mean. http://www.basecamphq.com/ is nice; http://www.blogger.com/ can be classed as a web app ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
russ - maxdesign wrote: I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. Even before one or two tabs though? -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
I accept the point, Russ. However, on a practical level, the concern that Ben expressed regarding accessibility compared to the importance of the content on the page is a decision the users need to make all the time and one that doesn't usually cost a lot: Interesting content... I guess I'll push through the site even though it obviously isn't built for me. vs I'm not even doing to bother looking at this site even though it might have the answers I'm looking for. For any web user (disabled or not) the second attitude isn't going to get them very far. I'm hoping that if I build a site that features good accessibility options then I will get people more people **preferring** to use my site over others that may have similar content. I've been following the Skip Link discussion because I find it to be a very contentious issue. No one has seemed to come up with a 100% successful answer that pleases everybody. My point is this: even **having** the Skip to Content feature on the site in any form is a far sight better than not having one. If it only works for blind users and not physically disabled users, it's still better than sites that don't have one at all. I dare say that there are more sites out there that don't have then than those that do. Do visually or physically disabled people 'not bother' to look at ALL those pages? At the end of the day, we're still *trying* to get it right. It sometimes feels as though we're being beaten over the head for not having everything function perfectly for everybody - and I don't think we ever will (too many different types of people, too diverse a range of technology). It seems as though we should be giving a 'clap on the back' for those developers that spend hours of their time *testing* all these ideas out with the aim of making peoples lives better... PS: Sorry about the soapbox - it's the end of the week and I needed to vent... R :o) - Original Message - From: russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites. I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to struggle on if the information is very important or only available at one particular site. When David Woodbridge's was demonstrating a poorly built site to the WSG last year he commented: I am doing this to demonstrate the problems. In real life I would never really go this far into a site this bad, I would have left on the fist page. Think of it in other terms. If there was a shop with major physical barriers (like being forced to climb a ladder just to get into the shop), and the shop keeper was never available, would you hang around long? Compare that to a shop nearby with easy access and friendly staff. Russ Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom? Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them? Just a thought... And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter compliancy to every living mammal on the planet. R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:03:50 +1200, Ben Wrighton wrote: What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the [skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement. And the obvious solution would be to ensure there is a link to the accessability statement on the front (and indeed each) page? It would be nice to think that, assuming the 'skip link becomes visible on tab' approach works, that it will become common and users will become accustomed to hitting the tab key to see if they get to that something extra that is there just for them. IMHO Lea ~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane - please contact me for CV -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Client wants flashing text
On 4/14/05 2:48 PM Jeff Oien [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis, what do you do or tell them? I've seen some fairly tasteful things done with Flash to provide visual interest. Maybe something as simple as horizontal scroll or simple animation in Flash would do? Rick Ps. Sorry for my outburst yesterday on the list re: javascript. I have no excuse and I'll not repeat that behavior any time soon. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Templates with Content at Top
Looks fine on my iMac (OS X 10.2.8) and Firefox 1.0/Safari 1.0.3 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Quirks mode vs Standards mode
Hi all, I am interested in people's thoughts about using quirks mode (ie adding ?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8? before the doctype) vs standards mode. What do most people use? Which option requires *less* css hacks, and is *more* standards compliant across the widest range of modern browsers? Appreciate any feedback. Thanks Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Housekeeping [ADMIN]
Hi, Getting a few complaints lately about useless traffic and untrimmed posts. If your answer to a post is Looks fine on mine or Thanks for the help then please post it directly to the sender rather than the list. 1600+ other people really don't need to see it. I can't tell you how on every mail client but as far as I know you can get the posters direct address from the From address. In Outlook it is shown as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Peter Firminger [EMAIL PROTECTED] and by double clicking Peter Firminger you are given the address in a dialogue box to copy. The alternative is for me to set the list to Reply to sender instead of Reply to list but that would be more painful for everyone replying and would mean some of the great advice didn't get to everyone so please think about it when replying. Please trim all previous unrelated material (including the WSG footer and peoples signatures) from a post when answering. Just keep what is absolutely necessary for context. Please try and remember to send plain text emails rather than HTML emails to the list. For those that keep asking, to unsubscribe (delete your membership) log in to http://webstandardsgroup.org/ and use the link Unsubscribe - Delete Membership. If you abandon your login email address (change jobs etc.) please delete your membership and resubscribe under your new address. Please don't write to me asking to unsubscribe you. To change which lists you are on (WSG, CMS and their digest versions) use the link Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions. Use this option when you are going on leave (vacation) and are setting a Vacation Message and set both lists to No Mail. You will still get infrequent messages from the Announce list which all members are subscribed to. If you stop getting WSG mail it is likely that your emails have been bouncing and we have set you to No Mail, you may see an error message in the Note to member field. Please deal with the cause of the error before resubscribing to the list. The digest versions (in a lot of mail clients) suck. We know and there's nothing we can do about it at this stage. If you use SpamArrest to filter your emails, please use another email address for your WSG membership. SpamArrest are proven spammers and you DO NOT have the right to put other people's email addresses into their database. You may agree to their Terms of Service but I don't and you are violating my privacy by giving them my address. Please reply off-list if you really need to, these are not topics for open discussion that will add to the traffic. Regards, Peter Firminger *** http://webboy.net/ info@webboy.net +612 49983388 +614 12932269 *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
This brings up a question. How effective are Skip navigation links? I have heard that half the people do not understand what skip navigation links are. I design web sites to get to the main content or with very few links until the main content. Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. http://www.choroideremia.org Advocates for Sight Impaired Consumers (ASIC) http://www.asic.bc.cx ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] newspaper format
Bob, Looks good on Mac (OSX 10.3.8 15 inch G4 PowerBook Firefox / Safari) and PC (XP Firefox / IE). 3 col xhtml is tricky, I know! In case you are interested in an actual 3 column newspaper website in xhtml check out the San Francisco Examiner at http://www.sfexaminer.com/ . Good Luck, Brian On 4/14/05, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys and gals, I have been trying to present the information relating to a novel in a more interesting style than 'just text' or indeed three columns, and have experimented with a sort of newspaper style. The newspaper is a fictitious one which is mentioned often in the novel, and my effort can be seen (in isolation from the rest of the site) at: http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/bren/newspaper/news.html The original design I produced and am modifying can be seen at www.novelnovella.com . I have used floats (of course!) and the 'layout is supposed to work like: banner header leftcol rightcol banner leftcol rightcol etc I would be most grateful for any general feedback : does it work as a design? Does it work (esp on MAC) as it's supposed to? Is there anything glaringly bad about it? You get the idea. It works for me in FF1.0, IE6, IE5.5, Opera 7, all on PC. Many thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Brian Ussery [EMAIL PROTECTED] b e ussery imagery co. http://www.beussery.com 706.296.3446 905.935.4396f be unlimited! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Quirks mode vs Standards mode
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: I am interested in people's thoughts about using quirks mode (ie adding ?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8? before the doctype) vs standards mode. Think we had a similar discussion a few months back... It is recommended to use the xml-prolog with xhtml1.0, and it _is only_ IE6 that gets thrown into quirks mode by it (or anything up there above the DTD). xhtml1.1 and upwards doesn't give us much choice, and IE/win doesn't see such pages when they are properly served anyway -- but that's another matter. What do most people use? Me: IE6 in quirks mode always - unless I'm testing its not very standard mode. Which option requires *less* css hacks, and is *more* standards compliant across the widest range of modern browsers? Having IE6 in quirks mode requires less hacks and adjustments for ALL IE/win versions. All standard-compliant browsers are in standard mode anyway if the are fed proper code and the correct DocTypeDeclaration. IE6 can't do anything in standard mode that it can't do in quirks mode. It just do it differently. What IE6 doesn't have -- it doesn't have in either mode. IE6' standard mode is a mess, when compared to Op, Moz/FF, Saf others. Many of the differences disappears into thin air when IE6 is in quirks mode, and there are only minor adjustments left. IE7 next... regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
