Re: [WSG] Will HTML be nicer to PHP than XHTML?
The language is only as sloppy as the person writing it.
Back to the question, in my personal projects I have been running the
Smarty PHP template engine with xhtml 1.0 strict formatted templates
and content without any problems. At work we run a much more dynamic
version of the engine with html templates, xml content and navigation
files pulled into those templates. Still no problems, all we have to
make sure of is that we escape the necessary characters when
appropiate in our templates.
Note- This is not meant to start a discussion/arguement on the use of
this particular php engine (class), but rather to illustrate a
variation of PHP's use with both xhtml and html.
On 7/3/05, Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Subject: Re: [WSG] Will HTML be nicer to PHP than XHTML?
Personally, I believe this is one of the strong argumens for XHTML. PHP is
very sloppy, and when you combine that with another sloppy language, HTML,
the mess is tremendos. For small projects and new people it's not much of
an issue, but try to maintain a large codebase without it being incredibly
buggy.
Using XHTML forces you towards good practices, something that is good to do
from the begining before you develop those bad habits. I don't know who was
objecting to using XHTML, but IMHO it will interfere with you learning of
PHP less than HTML because it will force you to know what your doing, which
is the point of learning.
In PHP's defence, stupid sloppy code can be written in ANY language. (Don't
believe me? Head over to http://www.thedailywtf.com and see some real-world
examples.)
PHP's lack of pickiness (compared to Java for example) is what has allowed it
to be accessible to so many people, without requiring the very steep learning
curve some other languages require. Good developers write good code. Period.
let me repeat again. THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN BAD HTML AND PHP.
This thread needs to die.
--
Chris Gandolfo
{Designer Standards Advocate}
Twelve Horses
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Re: [WSG] font size in a table
On 4/7/05 2:42 PM, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hope could just have easily changed from an incomplete HTML4.01 Transitional doctype to a complete version. This is not a criticism of Hope, as she may have had other reasons for moving to XHML. This was not a conscience nor educated decision. As a newbie to css and web standards, I have been learning by using resources such as this helpful list, various books (as recommended on this list), and templates offered on the web. The main template I've been using is derived from Owen Briggs' generic text styles template found at: http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/ and http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/template.html It is from this template that I picked up html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en lang=en I would be very interested to know the pros cons of using this! Regards, Hope ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Is br / friendly to accessibility?
I presume br / is part of the standards since it passes HTML 4.01 Strict XHTML 1.0 strict validation but does it accessible friendly? Coming from the print design background it always disturb me to see the first word of the new sentence lonely let behind with the previous sentence. Knowing how browsers render differently I kind of gotten over with my obsession most the time but once in a while client's demand pulls me back to the old shell. So is br / friendly to accessibility? Thanks! Tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Is br / friendly to accessibility?
To what I know, search engines, browsers and other items that reads the Internet and the Web for that matter, searches through tags like this: [tag]* Meaning that no matter what tag it is, it will always replace the * with... anything, cause it was assumed that when the web started, people my type in useless things in tags, and thus it has to be ignored, but if people have written something like; br lol The browser couldn't just check for br, as br lol ( bad example I know, please kill me ) would not be that, and therefore not a break line. So instead, they used the other version. However, XHTML is meant to be read in another way, as far as I know, only Opera and Gecko takes care of the !DOCTYPE. :( Svip On 04/07/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tee wrote: I presume br / is part of the standards since it passes HTML 4.01 Strict XHTML 1.0 strict validation but does it accessible friendly? Coming from the print design background it always disturb me to see the first word of the new sentence lonely let behind with the previous sentence. Knowing how browsers render differently I kind of gotten over with my obsession most the time but once in a while client's demand pulls me back to the old shell. So is br / friendly to accessibility? Thanks! Tee It wouldn't be an issue for screen readers or things like google, and I doubt it would be a problem with most text-browsers. The biggest issue would be if people resize the screen. Then you might end up with the last word of a sentance left on it's own line. I think the best rule of thumb is to ask you self if the line-break is semantically relevant. There's really no way to know if the line-break is going to be were you think it is, so avoid using if for styling. Alan Trick. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination
Title: semantically correct markup for pagination Hi all, does anybody have an example of a semantically correct markup for a pagination like on www.google.com with previous and next links? Best regards from Germany, Marco Della Pina
Re: [WSG] IE's doing it again
Maybe I wasn't specific enough, this layout works just fine. My main content (middle column) is first in the source code. When I hooked the layout to my database all the clearing worked as promised. My problem is in the header and specifically the subnav which, in IE, throws the rest of the layout out of whack. The logo and main nav are fixed in size, but I would like the subnav font to size up or down as the rest of the layout does. My original layout was based on the article in ALA, that's where I ran into my clearing problems since it also cleared the left column and doesn't put the main content area first. Again, the files: http://vtest.jrations.com/test_page.php http://www.jrations.com/css/main_final.css w Wayne Godfrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jul 4, 2005, at 12:40 AM, David Laakso wrote: Wayne Godfrey wrote: I've started building a new template to get my main content section as the first item in the source and solve some of my clearing problems. Works great everywhere, except, now image this, Internet Deplorer. The problem seems to be within either the nav or subnav lists that follow one another. I've gone around in circles to no avail. The file and CSS both validate and work on Safari, FF and Opera on the Mac side. IE doesn't play on Windows or the Mac side. I'm not sure if its my lists or the layout. Any help will be greatly appreciated. The files: http://vtest.jrations.com/test_page.php http://www.jrations.com/css/main_final.css Wayne Godfrey Wayne, I'm sure someone will come up with all the hacks to make it work the way you want. But if not, since your main content isn't the first item in the source anyway, I'd suggest trying a stable 3 col layout that's known to work cross-browser http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/. Put it in quirks mode to make it easy on yourself for IE, adjust the widths of the side columns to meet your need, add position relative to anything with a negative margin(for Mac/ie5.2), and enclose the whole ball of wax in a fixed width container-- tweak for Win/5x, and you're good to go... we'll almost. fwiw, check your current layout with images disabled. Good luck. David Laakso -- David Laakso http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE's doing it again
On 5 Jul 2005, at 2:15 AM, Wayne Godfrey wrote: My problem is in the header and specifically the subnav which, in IE, throws the rest of the layout out of whack. The logo and main nav are fixed in size, but I would like the subnav font to size up or down as the rest of the layout does. Wayne, broken layout, as I see it in IE5.2/Mac, is that subnav links lie on the same line as navbar, immediately to right of Advertise link - and they should be on their own line, below and centered. Yes? If so, I fixed this by adding clear:both to the css declaration for #subnav ul. Display is now the same in IE5 as in Safari, FF. Aagh - just checked the page in IE6/Win. See what you mean - that's quite a mess. Sorry, haven't got *that* much time right now... your css file is just too long to deconstruct quickly. At a glance, though, it looks like IE's broken box model implementation... Hope the 'clear' gets you started, at least. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Visited Link Styling
Chris Kennon wrote:
Strike-through styling for visited links, I've heard differing opinions
on this method, but am asking the consensus of the WSG.
a:visited { text-decoration: line-through; }
As others pointed out, it's more of a usability question, but to add my
GBP 0.02 to the issue and bring in potential accessibility issues: text
with a line through may become harder to read for users with low vision
and/or dyslexia, and it may - as already noted - cause confusion as to
whether or not a link is disabled or something for users with cognitive
disabilities.
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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RE: [WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination
Title: semantically correct markup for "pagination" In what language, Marco? This type of functionalityis built intoalmost anysite's search page. You can find examples of it everywhere. Using PHP you would just set a couple of variables and then perform anumrows count and repeat of the same query with a LIMIT of 10 or so. e.g. $totalResults+4/10; and then a LIMIT $StartPos, 10;, where $StartPos = ($PageNo-1)*10; and PageNo is a hidden field in your form. You then just add the Prev and Next buttons with an onclick event of document.results.PageNo.value= -- and value = ++. Sorry I couldn't write it more clearly but I dont think this presents any accesibility issues. It's just a few lines of code and it will be different for every occasion and language used. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marco Della PinaSent: Tuesday, 5 July 2005 1:12 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] semantically correct markup for "pagination" Hi all, does anybody have an example of a semantically correct markup for a "pagination" like on www.google.com with previous and next links? Best regards from Germany, Marco Della Pina
Re: [WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination
Webmaster wrote: In what language, Marco? As he asked for semantically correct markup, how's about HTML? ;) I'd be tempted to say ordered list of links on this one. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Visited Link Styling
or some people, like me, just find line-through links annoying =) regards Terrence Wood. On 5 Jul 2005, at 12:23 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: As others pointed out, it's more of a usability question ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Visited Link Styling
r U k1dd1n?? L1n3-thru l1nx sh0w wikked CSS h4x0r skillz, 'speshly w1f bl4ck bg c0l0ur and gr33n 'MATRIX' c0l0ur linx LOL ;) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Visited Link Styling or some people, like me, just find line-through links annoying =) regards Terrence Wood. On 5 Jul 2005, at 12:23 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: As others pointed out, it's more of a usability question ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Visited Link Styling
At 08:47 AM 6/30/2005, Chris Kennon wrote:
Strike-through styling for visited links, I've heard differing
opinions on this method, but am asking the consensus of the WSG.
a:visited { text-decoration: line-through; }
Chris,
I don't see any ambiguity. Crossing out text indicates that it's deleted,
defunct, demised. The strikethrough makes the text more difficult to read
which is appropriate only if the text isn't really meant to be read any
more. Marking links as visited rarely indicates that one should never
visit them again; in fact often to the contrary they help us remember where
we've found content worth returning to while perusing a site.
I can see that crossing out a hyperlink could work in a situation in which
links are meant to be followed only once, such as in a checklist of ordered
steps in which backing up is discouraged; but then the designer had better
anticipate people wanting to start over which would necessitate a clearing
of cache: a bit extreme and not to my knowledge facilitated by scripting.
If strikethrough were used on a website for links in general, I'd be outa
there in a flash unless the content were so utterly compelling that I was
moved to forgive the designer their naive innocence or obnoxious intent.
Cheers,
Paul
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Re: [WSG] IE's doing it again
This is breaking my heart, as I love the structure of the source. I tried the clear myself before asking for help, but it still messes up IE/win, as you found out. I'll try to get the CSS file back down to basics and see if I can get it to work a little bit at a time. Thanks for the help and if anyone else has any ideas, I'm still hoping! wayne Wayne Godfrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jul 4, 2005, at 6:07 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 5 Jul 2005, at 2:15 AM, Wayne Godfrey wrote: My problem is in the header and specifically the subnav which, in IE, throws the rest of the layout out of whack. The logo and main nav are fixed in size, but I would like the subnav font to size up or down as the rest of the layout does. Wayne, broken layout, as I see it in IE5.2/Mac, is that subnav links lie on the same line as navbar, immediately to right of Advertise link - and they should be on their own line, below and centered. Yes? If so, I fixed this by adding clear:both to the css declaration for #subnav ul. Display is now the same in IE5 as in Safari, FF. Aagh - just checked the page in IE6/Win. See what you mean - that's quite a mess. Sorry, haven't got *that* much time right now... your css file is just too long to deconstruct quickly. At a glance, though, it looks like IE's broken box model implementation... Hope the 'clear' gets you started, at least. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination
Webmaster wrote: I wasn't aware this could be achieved dynamically using HTML. Nobody said anything about HTML creating the pagination links dynamically. Have I missed something? Does PHP not represent well-formed and meaningful data? PHP outputs whatever HTML markup you tell it to output, once you've done all your totalresults/blahblah stuff. But, what should you print or echo? *That* is what the original question was. A paragraph with a series of links? An unordered list of links? A definition list? Perhaps all this time I've invested in server-side scripting has been wasted. You seem to have missed the point of the original question. I'd best let the developers at Google know. :) Yes, let them know that their pages should really be marked up with structural HTML or XHTML... :) -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination
Sorry Patrick. I was way off. I thought he was asking how to achieve the task in its enirety. I've revisited the originel email and, in my defence, it really wasn't terribly explicit. Now to tackle those Googlers. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Tuesday, 5 July 2005 1:29 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination Webmaster wrote: I wasn't aware this could be achieved dynamically using HTML. Nobody said anything about HTML creating the pagination links dynamically. Have I missed something? Does PHP not represent well-formed and meaningful data? PHP outputs whatever HTML markup you tell it to output, once you've done all your totalresults/blahblah stuff. But, what should you print or echo? *That* is what the original question was. A paragraph with a series of links? An unordered list of links? A definition list? Perhaps all this time I've invested in server-side scripting has been wasted. You seem to have missed the point of the original question. I'd best let the developers at Google know. :) Yes, let them know that their pages should really be marked up with structural HTML or XHTML... :) -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Recall: [WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination
Webmaster would like to recall the message, [WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination. attachment: winmail.dat
[WSG] base css
what are you guys using as a base css file to start a site with common hacks and what not? Thanks happy 4th :)
Re: [WSG] base css
what are you guys using as a base css file to start a site with common hacks and what not? plug http://leftjustified.net/journal/2004/10/07/css-negotiation/ /plug and plug http://leftjustified.net/journal/2004/10/19/global-ws-reset/ /plug Couldn't help myself ;) Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] semantically correct markup for pagination
Webmaster wrote: Sorry Patrick. I was way off. No worries...happens to me most of the time as well :) Now to tackle those Googlers. That's the spirit! -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] base css
plug Couldn't help myself ;) Patience is a virtue, young padawan ;) h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] base css
Hi there,
what are you guys using as a base css file to start a site with common hacks
and what not?
These days I invariably kick off with the global whitespace reset (hi
Andrew!) http://leftjustified.net/journal/2004/10/19/global-ws-reset/
...and some controlled whitespace settings.
If I know the base font I'll set that and some default colours, then
set a % text size in the body {}, to avoid any font-size setting
smaller than 1em. I set the font early since different fonts have such
different alphabet lengths and apparent sizes.
If I expect a lot of edits/versions I'll add a comment at the start
with a name/description, version number and date. That does mean I
need to remember to increment the version later, but if you have that
mindset it really isn't hard.
After that it depends on the job, really. I've found the whitespace
reset notably reduces the number of hacks you need to use, though
(assuming of course that you use % and EM for all size settings).
cheers,
h
--
--- http://www.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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[WSG] Broken link
The link to 'WCAG 1.0 Guidelines and Checkpoints for Flash' is dead, can someone pls fix. Thanks David --- IMPORTANT: This email from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC), and any attachments to it, contain information that is confidential and may also be the subject of legal professional or other privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not review, copy, disseminate, disclose to others or take action in reliance of, any material contained within this email. If you have received this email in error, please let the ACCC know by reply email to the sender informing them of the mistake and delete all copies from your computer system. For the purposes of the Spam Act 2003, this email is authorised by the ACCC www.accc.gov.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] base css
If I know the base font I'll set that and some default
colours, then set a % text size in the body {}, to avoid
any font-size setting smaller than 1em.
Hi Heretic, please explain this. How does setting a % for text-size in body
prevent the appearance of smaller than 1em font sizes? Is 100% a good
starting point for body? Enquiring minds want to know.
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