[WSG] a CSS form styling problem
Hi there, 3 days I was stuck with a css form that the value in the
select group overlapping the next element.
http://clients.lotusseeds.com/contactus.html
My workaround is this:
http://clients.lotusseeds.com/contactus1.html
adding a class with margin-bottom
.break1 {
margin-bottom: 220px;
line-height: 1.2px /* can't remember why I put this line-height
for */
}
so it looks like this:
div class=row1
label for=##strongtext here/label
span class=col2
select name=## id=###
option value=##more option1/option
option value=##more option2/option
/select
/span
/div
p class=break1nbsp; /p !-- break insert here --!
div class=row1
label for=##strongtext here/label
span class=col2
select name=## id=###
option value=##more option1/option
option value=##more option2/option
/select
/span
/div
This method has worked well in Safari, Opera and Firefox, but in IE
it creates double margin.
I tried the Peekaboo and Line-height / Replaced Element hacks, none
of them seem to work. Worse, in my last attempt, all the input field
drops to second line (I can solve this one I believe but my brain
isn't working right now).
here is my css for the form.
http://clients.lotusseeds.com/contactform.css
Wonder if this is more a follow CSS spec route or a creative approach
way to make IE behave? I somehow feel that adding a margin-bottom
class is cheating.
by the way, if you read my previous post regarding the 'open new
window' dilemma, well ! my client yet to decide what she wants to do
with it.
Regards,
tee
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RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links
Hi Ted Just so you are aware, background images are not read by screen readers so if you are trying to make the site accessible you should ensure that there is an alternate way of identifying the link as opening a new window. (Informing the user of opening a new window is a Level AA issue but if you provide an image that conveys that information it becomes a Level A issue). Also you can't rely on the TITLE attribute of the link tag as they are not read out by screen readers by default. You may want to consider something like: http://www.liveinvictoria.vic.gov.au/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=95languageI d=1contentId=-1 (right hand column under More information) Cheers, Gian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Drake, Ted C. Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 2:32 AM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: [WSG] I'm on a question roll background images on links We are using a background image on links to signify they are external. The image sits on the right side of the link using background: url() 100% 0; All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or sits at the top when the text wraps to a second line. Is there a way to make the background image follow the text inside a link rather than looking at the link as a block? I've tried display: inline-block and that made the spacing better, but didn't fix the issue. Here's an example Good link: | Google Virtual | | World (icon) | Bad link: | Google Virtua(icon) | The icon sits at the top and doesn't | World | flow with the text Has anyone found a way to fix this? I don't want to go back to inline images and our standard is to have the icon on the right and not the left. Otherwise, I would have placed it on the left and it would have been a cake-walk. P.S. sorry about an earlier html formatted email, I try to send them in plain text. Thanks Ted Drake www.tdrake.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Fully compliant sample site
Hi all, Sorry to ask a silly question, but is there a really good 'Fully Compliant' sample site I could see somewhere? I am basically looking for a template, with associatedCSS files etc, that I could have a really good look at to see how it works rather thanread through stacks of rules. Something with detailed comments explaining why they made the decisions they made would be really sweet. Thanks! dp.
Re: [WSG] Fully compliant sample site
One of the best fully compliant sites I have seen is: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbsite/ There is a detailed tutorial here: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail51.html :) Russ Hi all, Sorry to ask a silly question, but is there a really good 'Fully Compliant' sample site I could see somewhere? I am basically looking for a template, with associated CSS files etc, that I could have a really good look at to see how it works rather than read through stacks of rules. Something with detailed comments explaining why they made the decisions they made would be really sweet. Thanks! dp. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Fully compliant sample site
One of the best fully compliant sites I have seen is:http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbsite/ There is a detailed tutorial here:http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail51.html Fantastic!!! :D
Re: [WSG] Fully compliant sample site
This one is much better: http://j-walk.com/other/todd/aboutme.htm The web designer has a site too: http://j-walk.com/other/myrtle/index.htm Simon :) - Original Message - From: russ - maxdesign To: Web Standards Group Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Fully compliant sample site One of the best fully compliant sites I have seen is:http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbsite/There is a detailed tutorial here:http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail51.html:)Russ
Re: [WSG] Fully compliant sample site
russ - maxdesign wrote: One of the best fully compliant sites I have seen is: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbsite/ hehe- classic :p Hi all, Sorry to ask a silly question, but is there a really good 'Fully Compliant' sample site I could see somewhere? try csszengarden.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
More accessibility on opening new windows: was:RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links
Gian brings up an interesting point, Instead of using a background image,
insert the image that represents an open window instead. Place text in the
alt attribute that specifies the window will open in a new window.
I think I can go one step better.
The image you are using is still presentational and not necessarily
functional.
How about a href=http://www.yahoo.com class=external title=This link
will open in a new window onclick=window.open(this.href); return false;
Yahoo.comspanThis link will open in a new window/span/a
Now, use CSS
.external {background: url(bg-external-link.png)no-repeat 0 0;
padding-left:25px;}
.external span {display:none;}
This gives you the visual image without requiring multiple server requests,
distinct language for screenreaders, and provides clear information for
those without CSS enabled.
Will a screen reader read something that has display:none? Does someone have
a better suggestion for hiding this? I'm worried that text-indent would
create a huge target area for the link and position absolute may get thrown
off by where the link is used.
We could use javascript to detect the external link, i.e. look for
href=http or more likely a series of detects. It could insert the class,
the title, and the span.
This makes it easier on the programmer, they would write:
a href=http://www.yahoo.com;Yahoo.com/a
Thierry wrote a script for the latest post on my web site:
www.tdrake.net. You could use this as the starting point for the above
javascript and just modify it for what it is looking for and needs to
insert.
P.S. I can't figure out why this post is behaving differently than others on
my blog. I know it looks horrible as a permalink. There is an extra /div
getting inserted and it is using a different comments include. Has anyone
else had this issue on Wordpress?
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gian Sampson-Wild (PurpleTop)
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:13 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll background images on links
Hi Ted
Just so you are aware, background images are not read by screen readers so
if you are trying to make the site accessible you should ensure that there
is an alternate way of identifying the link as opening a new window.
(Informing the user of opening a new window is a Level AA issue but if you
provide an image that conveys that information it becomes a Level A issue).
Also you can't rely on the TITLE attribute of the link tag as they are not
read out by screen readers by default. You may want to consider something
like:
http://www.liveinvictoria.vic.gov.au/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=95languageI
d=1contentId=-1 (right hand column under More information)
Cheers,
Gian
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Drake, Ted C.
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 2:32 AM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: [WSG] I'm on a question roll background images on links
We are using a background image on links to signify they are external. The
image sits on the right side of the link using background: url() 100% 0;
All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or sits at the top when
the text wraps to a second line. Is there a way to make the background
image follow the text inside a link rather than looking at the link as a
block?
I've tried display: inline-block and that made the spacing better, but
didn't fix the issue.
Here's an example
Good link:
| Google Virtual |
| World (icon) |
Bad link:
| Google Virtua(icon) | The icon sits at the top and doesn't
| World | flow with the text
Has anyone found a way to fix this? I don't want to go back to inline images
and our standard is to have the icon on the right and not the left.
Otherwise, I would have placed it on the left and it would have been a
cake-walk.
P.S. sorry about an earlier html formatted email, I try to send them in
plain text.
Thanks
Ted Drake
www.tdrake.net
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: More accessibility on opening new windows: was:RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links
Sorry Ted two things:
1. No JavaScript will cause no new window to open AND the title will still be
there.
2. Display:none on the span helps no one. Screen readers only ignore
display:none on form controls.
It would be better to write the whole thing as a JavaScript routine, complete
with noscript section:
script
write link with new window clause
/script
noscript
Normal link
/noscript
Regards
Mike 2k:)2
Mike Foskett
Web Standards, Accessibility Testing Consultant
Communications
British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: 02476 416994 Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
Fax: 02476 411410
http://www.becta.org.uk
-Original Message-
From: Drake, Ted C. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01 September 2005 16:19
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: More accessibility on opening new windows: was:RE: [WSG] I'm on a
question roll background images on links
Gian brings up an interesting point, Instead of using a background image,
insert the image that represents an open window instead. Place text in the alt
attribute that specifies the window will open in a new window.
I think I can go one step better.
The image you are using is still presentational and not necessarily functional.
How about a href=http://www.yahoo.com class=external title=This link
will open in a new window onclick=window.open(this.href); return false;
Yahoo.comspanThis link will open in a new window/span/a
Now, use CSS
.external {background: url(bg-external-link.png)no-repeat 0 0;
padding-left:25px;} .external span {display:none;}
This gives you the visual image without requiring multiple server requests,
distinct language for screenreaders, and provides clear information for those
without CSS enabled.
Will a screen reader read something that has display:none? Does someone have a
better suggestion for hiding this? I'm worried that text-indent would create a
huge target area for the link and position absolute may get thrown off by where
the link is used.
We could use javascript to detect the external link, i.e. look for href=http
or more likely a series of detects. It could insert the class, the title, and
the span.
This makes it easier on the programmer, they would write:
a href=http://www.yahoo.com;Yahoo.com/a
Thierry wrote a script for the latest post on my web site:
www.tdrake.net. You could use this as the starting point for the above
javascript and just modify it for what it is looking for and needs to insert.
P.S. I can't figure out why this post is behaving differently than others on my
blog. I know it looks horrible as a permalink. There is an extra /div getting
inserted and it is using a different comments include. Has anyone else had this
issue on Wordpress?
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gian Sampson-Wild (PurpleTop)
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:13 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll background images on links
Hi Ted
Just so you are aware, background images are not read by screen readers so if
you are trying to make the site accessible you should ensure that there is an
alternate way of identifying the link as opening a new window.
(Informing the user of opening a new window is a Level AA issue but if you
provide an image that conveys that information it becomes a Level A issue).
Also you can't rely on the TITLE attribute of the link tag as they are not read
out by screen readers by default. You may want to consider something
like:
http://www.liveinvictoria.vic.gov.au/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=95languageI
d=1contentId=-1 (right hand column under More information)
Cheers,
Gian
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Drake, Ted C.
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 2:32 AM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: [WSG] I'm on a question roll background images on links
We are using a background image on links to signify they are external. The
image sits on the right side of the link using background: url() 100% 0;
All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or sits at the top when the
text wraps to a second line. Is there a way to make the background image
follow the text inside a link rather than looking at the link as a block?
I've tried display: inline-block and that made the spacing better, but didn't
fix the issue.
Here's an example
Good link:
| Google Virtual |
| World (icon) |
Bad link:
| Google Virtua(icon) | The icon sits at the top and doesn't
| World | flow with the text
Has anyone found a way to fix this? I don't want to go back to inline images
and our standard
Re: [WSG] Microformats
On Aug 31, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Drake, Ted C. wrote: The summary is at: http://www.tdrake.net, but it is about opening new windows for pdf files. For a summary of microformats, visit http://microformats.org/ ... From: Chris Kennon Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Microformats Hi, Where is this summary, Microformated? ... On Aug 31, 2005, at 2:44 PM, Ben Curtis wrote: Ted Drake just wrote up a summary of the previous opening a new window conversation, so I'd like to grab a sample from what he was doing -- after all, microformats *must* satisfy a real, current need in order to be useful. My apologies. My point was to take a current, existing, common problem and present a new microformat type response to show how the concept could be applied to any problem. Since a conversation had just focused on a problem many people had, I adopted that problem to tackle. Note: Microformats are not solutions to problems, but rather they are agreed-upon syntactical standards which would in turn allow for many third-party solutions to be interoperable. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] tabbed content within content pages
Hi I have been seeing this thing quite a bit lately, where in one of the content columns there are tabs - check out this site: http://www.miavanloon.be/huifkartochten/essen/ I was wondering if there was some special trick they were using like an I-frame so that they wouldn't have to have three versions of the same page (not that I could see in the source anyway) - so that the content on the left stayed the same for each of the different tabs that was clicked on the right. I can see that this could be very useful for some things and would like to know how it is done. Any ideas? Cheers *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer Teaching Learning Development Group Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Text Size Statistics
Hi all :o) Have a client whose text size in IE is set to Largest (like my Dad). Just wondering if anyone knows of a resource out there that maps out the percentage of users that: a) know about View Text Size, and b) actually change it and if so, to what? Any help would be good and, I think, useful to us folks. Cheers :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
I've been doing usability tests and user research for years and yesterday was the first time I ever saw someone change the font in a usability test - everyone else just leans forward and squints. I'd estimate 5% of people I have interviewed use a font other than the default. I've never seen any study or resource. The topic has come up on a number of my usability lists and the general consensus is that most of the general user population (ie those who do not create sites) do not know about the feature. Donna On 2 Sep 2005 at 10:01, Richard Czeiger wrote: Hi all :o) Have a client whose text size in IE is set to Largest (like my Dad). Just wondering if anyone knows of a resource out there that maps out the percentage of users that: a) know about View Text Size, and b) actually change it and if so, to what? Any help would be good and, I think, useful to us folks. Cheers :o) Richard -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Thanks Donna - Nice to hear from a usability professional. I guess this raises the question: If we're all going hell-for-leather making fluid siteswith relative fonts for increased usability / accessibility and no one knows about it or how to use it, then: a) Is it worth the effort? Emotionally, I'd say 'yes'. I want to do the right thing, but if testing, debugging and getting it to work properly is an extra 2 - 3 hours of development time then is it worth it economically (for my client)? b) How do we tell people about it? What's the best way to spread the word? In my sites' Accessibility Statement, I have the following text: This site uses only relative font sizes, compatible with the user-specified "text size" option in visual browsers. This option can be adjusted by the user, allowing them to change the text size of their browser. But is it enough? How many people read my beautifully written Accessibility Statement anyway? Should I be putting up a separate page "How to change your text size" and link to it in the footer of every page? If so, my footers are getting a little crowded... 1. Copyright 2. Disclaimer 3. Privacy 4. Accessibility 5. Site Map Now.. 6. Change Text Size Seems a bit like overkill, no? - Original Message - From: "Donna Maurer" ... The general consensus is that most of the general user population (ie those who do not create sites) do not know about the feature.
[WSG] [OT] Hurricane Katrina Web Services
Hey WSG. I'm asking for help. Please respond directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . FIRST Need to tell people about: http://www.familymessages.org/index.php There are many different such things, but we need to pick one, and this is the one I've been flogging, and it's growing again now that I'm telling people about it. (Fell asleep.) SECOND For the last 24 hours, I've been compiling a Wiki with information specific to Orleans Parish. http://thinknola.com/wiki/ For a while one page, became a clearing house for infomation on the evacuation of Xavier University. http://thinknola.com/wiki/index.php?title=Xavier Unfortunately, I had to go and fall alseep. If anyone has any ideas on how to recruit more data formatters or organizers, I think this could be a great service to people in New Orleans. Any insight, or help. I wish I could post something on my blog, but it's down to conserve bandwidth. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
I'm not sure if it's the designer/developers domain to educate people on how to use their browsers, we should focus more on removing barriers to content. kind regards Terrence Wood. Richard Czeiger said: Now.. 6. Change Text Size Seems a bit like overkill, no? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Hi Terrence, I agree that its not our domain, but I don't think that makes us completely free of responsibility. Additionally, if no one knows about it - why bother. Shouldn't I just go back to to pixel-perfect font control. Yourphrase 'removing barriers to content' got me thinking... The situations seems like a Bad Boy Bubby scenario. If the user is stuck in a small room and never told there is an outside world, are they actually missing anything? You can only miss something if you know it's there in the first place, right? Imagine all these people with visual impairment who have been suffering through tiny web fonts, never realising that all they had to do was press two buttons on their browser. But they're not really 'suffering' as such because that's the only reality they know. My basic point is if we don't educate them (or point to where the barriers are that they couldn't see), then what's the point? Just my two cents... R :o) - Original Message - From: "Terrence Wood" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure if it's the designer/developers domain to educate people on how to use their browsers, we should focus more on removing barriers to content.
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Yes, it is still worth it because those people who do know really, really appreciate it. They *hate* it when a site doesn't allow them to resize the font. Those who I've spoken with have a much stronger attachment to sites that work for them, which should be important to all clients. I've not figured out how to let people know about it apart from showing anyone who comments that the text size on a site is too small. I also haven't figured out how to tell people about this feature on a site - 'accessibility' is probably not a great label. That said, can I rewrite your accessibilty statement for you (it's a bit passive and geeky)?: Does the text look too small to you? This site contains 'relative fonts' which can easily be made larger or smaller as you need. If you are using Internet Explorer, you can do this by selecting 'ViewText sizeLargest'. Donna On 2 Sep 2005 at 10:56, Richard Czeiger wrote: Thanks Donna - Nice to hear from a usability professional. I guess this raises the question: If we're all going hell-for-leather making fluid siteswith relative fonts for increased usability / accessibility and no one knows about it or how to use it, then: a) Is it worth the effort? Emotionally, I'd say 'yes'. I want to do the right thing, but if testing, debugging and getting it to work properly is an extra 2 - 3 hours of development time then is it worth it economically (for my client)? b) How do we tell people about it? What's the best way to spread the word? In my sites' Accessibility Statement, I have the following text: This site uses only relative font sizes, compatible with the user-specified text size option in visual browsers. This option can be adjusted by the user, allowing them to change the text size of their browser. But is it enough? How many people read my beautifully written Accessibility Statement anyway? Should I be putting up a separate page How to change your text size and link to it in the footer of every page? If so, my footers are getting a little crowded... 1. Copyright 2. Disclaimer 3. Privacy 4. Accessibility 5. Site Map Now.. 6. Change Text Size Seems a bit like overkill, no? -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Hey Donna :o) Geeky, huh? Very well. The Accessibility Statement is fairly generic (an example is here www.aidgc.com.au/accessibility.html ) and is based on an amanlgamation of various guru's and government's access pages. So the geek factor is probably high, but for politeness I'll refer to this a 'dry' instead of geek. :oP In terms of letting people know, again, I'm disagreeing with Terrance, because I've come across the same strong negative reaction from the few people who *do* know how to use it. I guess maybe with everyone out there we can come up with a great way to do this. Cheers, R :o) - Original Message - From: "Donna Maurer" Yes, it is still worth it because those people who do know really, really appreciate it. They *hate* it when a site doesn't allow them to resize the font. Those who I've spoken with have a much stronger attachment to sites that work for them, which should be important to all clients. I've not figured out how to let people know about it apart from showing anyone who comments that the text size on a site is too small. I also haven't figured out how to tell people about this feature on a site - 'accessibility' is probably not a great label. That said, can I rewrite your accessibilty statement for you (it's a bit passive and geeky)?: "Does the text look too small to you? This site contains 'relative fonts' which can easily be made larger or smaller as you need. If you are using Internet Explorer, you can do this by selecting 'ViewText sizeLargest'. "
Re: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I found this technique to spark my interest and curiosity as well, and wondered how it's done. Here's another example that's quite impressive: http://www.planwell.com/ Nice design... They use CSS + JS http://www.planwell.com/_lib/js/utilities.js Look for CHANGE PLANWELL TABS Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
On 2/9/05 11:08 AM, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure if it's the designer/developers domain to educate people on how to use their browsers, we should focus more on removing barriers to content. If text-resize icons (such as a small A and a big A) were by default in a browser tool bar, this would help educate users that they can resize text -- and then perhaps websites using fixed-sized fonts would get some complaints from IE users being unable to change the font size. Empower the people! Perhaps the w3c, in addition to encouraging browser developers to adopt Web Standards, could encourage them to adopt text-resize icons. (Does the w3c have a Suggestions Box?) Safari gives you the option of adding text-resize icons to tool bar. I find this very handy -- handier than using keyboard shortcuts because when I'm surfing on the web my hand is constantly on the mouse clicking or scrolling away. Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages
Yep this is nice design, however each of the tabs has different content, unlike the other site I mentioned http://www.miavanloon.be/huifkartochten/essen/ which has tabbed content actually within the page. I wonder if they have several versions of the page that loads up with each tab. Seems like double handling. Cheers *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer Teaching Learning Development Group Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** Thierry KoblentzTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages 02/09/2005 11:40 AM Please respond to Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I found this technique to spark my interest and curiosity as well, and wondered how it's done. Here's another example that's quite impressive: http://www.planwell.com/ Nice design... They use CSS + JS http://www.planwell.com/_lib/js/utilities.js Look for CHANGE PLANWELL TABS Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages
Helen Rysavy wrote I wonder if they have several versions of the page that loads up with each tab I would say that the page content is database fed. The selection of the tab simply determines what data is selected from the database for display. While the pages are _individual_ in as far as they have separate URI's, they are all a template, and the template content is derived from the querystring passed through the URL. In this case the URL is rewritten to make it more readable, but behind the scenes it is still in the format of ?a=1amp;b=2. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
On 2 Sep 2005, at 9:39 am, Donna Maurer wrote: I've been doing usability tests and user research for years and yesterday was the first time I ever saw someone change the font in a usability test - everyone else just leans forward and squints. I'd estimate 5% of people I have interviewed use a font other than the default. I've never seen any study or resource. The topic has come up on a number of my usability lists and the general consensus is that most of the general user population (ie those who do not create sites) do not know about the feature. We used to have a Kinkos shop in the area (mixed residential/university). I often used their PC for additional browser testing, and about 50% of the time, the font-size setting had been changed, either to 'smaller' or 'larger'. I quizzed the shop manager about it, and about half of the users were elder people. Most could apparently resize the font-size, a few needed help from the staff. (nothing scientific here, just a few tidbits). Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
I like the idea of a 'friendly' accessibility page. ve got these 'footer pages' that I basically copy across sites instead of thinkingn up new content all the time. My only concern in rewriting this is that some of my clients prefer very formal language for their sites. Maybe its a case of requiring that I have two versions of both sets, one conversationsal and one formal. Now... anyone want to write up both sets and present them to the WSG members as a template? :o) Seriously, though, I remember a thred on this lista while ago about Accessibility Statement pages and the text that should belong there - everyone seemed to have their own ideas, so who knows... R :o) - Original Message - From: Terrence Wood How about renaming 'accessibility statement' to 'tips for using this site' or something similar and talk about font sizing in there? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Ahah. That's interesting. My guess about the difference between my observations and yours is that the helpful staff at Kinkos at some point showed them how to do it ;) You only need to be shown once. Donna On 2 Sep 2005 at 11:54, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: We used to have a Kinkos shop in the area (mixed residential/university). I often used their PC for additional browser testing, and about 50% of the time, the font-size setting had been changed, either to 'smaller' or 'larger'. I quizzed the shop manager about it, and about half of the users were elder people. Most could apparently resize the font-size, a few needed help from the staff. (nothing scientific here, just a few tidbits). Philippe -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web accessibility toolbar
It alleviates the problem, but realistically I still think designers are better off using relative units Just as a matter of clarification: pixels *are* a relative unithttp://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/syndata.html#length-units However, they're relative to the screen resolution, rather than beingrelative to the viewport dimensions or the user's preferred font size. I didn't actually know pixels were defined as relative... but you're right, there it is :) So it's technically true, yes; although in a *practical* sense they are fixed. People don't tend to change their resolution per web page, the way they might change text size :) Also, with current technology (I'm looking at IE) pixel-based designs won't resize like other relative units. So I certainly wouldn't want people using pixels thinking they are relative in the same way as EMs or % are in the current real-world situation. All that said, I'm sure someone will now speak up and flame me since they *do* change their rez several times per viewing session. Or argue that zoom readers constitute changing rez, although that form of usage is not what I'm driving at. h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/--- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
Re: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages
Excellent tutorials on how it is done: http://www.sitepoint.com/article/structural-markup-_javascript_ by Simon Willison http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/unobtrusiveshowhide.php by Bobby van der Sluis Cheers, Irina. www.ssw.com.au
Re: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages
G'day unlike the other site I mentioned http://www.miavanloon.be/huifkartochten/essen/ which has tabbed content actually within the page. It may appear that way, but unless I'm missing something, there are 3 different pages: 1. There is a delay (loading a new page) when clicking on a tab 2. The links (in the tabs) are to different urls. 3. There's no (i)frame, object or JavaScript anywhere in the source Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
I understand what you're saying, but I'm convinced you can use simple language and still sound professional... I'd take up Donna's offer to rewrite it for you =) kind regards Terrence Wood. Richard Czeiger said: I like the idea of a 'friendly' accessibility pageMy only concern in rewriting this is that some of my clients prefer very formal language for their sites. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages
Hiya Seems like doubling up. I just read this article on sitepoint - Panel Switching... http://www.sitepoint.com/article/structural-markup-javascript/2 Looks like it can be achieved with JavaScript Cheers Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent by: cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages dsgroup.org 02/09/2005 12:57 PM Please respond to wsg G'day unlike the other site I mentioned http://www.miavanloon.be/huifkartochten/essen/ which has tabbed content actually within the page. It may appear that way, but unless I'm missing something, there are 3 different pages: 1. There is a delay (loading a new page) when clicking on a tab 2. The links (in the tabs) are to different urls. 3. There's no (i)frame, object or JavaScript anywhere in the source Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Here that, Donna? You've been nominated! I await your masterwork :oP R - Original Message - From: "Terrence Wood" I'd take up Donna's offer to rewrite it for you =)
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Hope Stewart wrote: Safari gives you the option of adding text-resize icons to tool bar. Win/IE does too, at least IE6 does... I used to have it there in my PC days. :-) I agree this seems like a good way to let people know this function is available. Vicki. :-) -- Vicki Berry DistinctiveWeb Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au Blog: http://www.unheardword.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] font-family- system value
Hi, i'm testing some fonts in a new design, and I want to know is if it safe to use the System font value. In the character map (WinXP), the System font doesnt show any icon (nor the T nor the O ring). The System font is the one that usually is displayed when your (old) computer runs out of RAM memory and you get an horrible dialog box with Ignore or Cancel buttons. This System font doesnt seems to have a bold variant, nor a small-caps variants. But I like and *I want to use it*. My question is: ¿is it safe? ¿Is this System font in all systems (Win, Linux, Mac) or at least in all Windows machines? Thanks in advance Julián ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] tabbed content within content pages
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks.. that makes sense. Bummer, I was hoping for a non db solution :) You have another option if you just want to be able to share the same content across pages: SS-Includes... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
How about if we all designated a single page to link to which clearly explains how to change the text size in different browsers? In response to Terrence isn't not being able to read the content constitute a barrier and therefore wouldn't showing users how to make the content readable be removing that barrier. I've noticed that flaming seams to occur on this list on Fridays so can I possibly pre-empt a roasting and request that the constructive informative discussion continues to be just that ;) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Friday, 2 September 2005 1:09 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics I'm not sure if it's the designer/developers domain to educate people on how to use their browsers, we should focus more on removing barriers to content. kind regards Terrence Wood. Richard Czeiger said: Now.. 6. Change Text Size Seems a bit like overkill, no? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:50:30 +1000, Richard Czeiger wrote: Hear that, Donna? You've been nominated! I await your masterwork :oP But I can't work for free!! she says, quite rightly. Here's your payment says I, Write the statement up and put it on your website. Label it The Perfect Accessability Statement To Increase the Usability of Your Site or similar and watch the link love as 2200 WSG list members link to you. Watch your sales enquiries skyrocket due to the increased search engine exposure (its up to you to land them ;)) Free publicity. Worth its weight in gold. HIH :) Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Brilliant idea! I can stop being the card sorting queen and become the accessibility statement queen. But first I probably should finish the three client reports I'm currently working on (which is why I've been so distractable today). You know, bird in the hand and all that ;) Donna On 2 Sep 2005 at 14:10, Lea de Groot wrote: On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:50:30 +1000, Richard Czeiger wrote: Hear that, Donna? You've been nominated! I await your masterwork :oP But I can't work for free!! she says, quite rightly. Here's your payment says I, Write the statement up and put it on your website. Label it The Perfect Accessability Statement To Increase the Usability of Your Site or similar and watch the link love as 2200 WSG list members link to you. Watch your sales enquiries skyrocket due to the increased search engine exposure (its up to you to land them ;)) Free publicity. Worth its weight in gold. HIH :) Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia -- Donna Maurer Maadmob Interaction Design e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: http://maadmob.com.au/ blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/ AOL IM: maadmob ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
I thinkeveryone's put forward
excellent arguments, thus far.
It's important to remember that a
lot of the time the 'why are we doing this' questions get asked because we're
after a reasonable justification for both ourselves and our clients. I don't
think it's enough to do something purely becuase it feels right and it's warm
and fuzzy. There are real-world concerns in our craft and we need to address the
business issues (cost vs value) as much as the usability issues (ensuring the
best conventions and treatment of our users) as much as the accessibility issues
('why do I have to have X to make this work?') as well as the moral issues
('standards are nice').
Fleshing out the reason why we do
something is just as important as the how, especially for a 'relatively' new
industry like ours.
In terms of the link to a single
page - I love this idea. Like a Creative Commons for standards-compliant web
sites :o)
So what other pages chould go
here...
1. Accessibility
Statement
2. Chage Text Size
3. Make Home Page
4. Standards Explaination (with
links to validators etc...)
Anything else?
R :o)
- Original Message -
From: "Ben Wrighton -
StraightForward"
How about if we all designated a
single page to link to which clearly explains how to change the text size in
different browsers?
Re: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Vicki Berry wrote: Hope Stewart wrote: Safari gives you the option of adding text-resize icons to tool bar. Win/IE does too, at least IE6 does... I used to have it there in my PC days. :-) IIRC, it was there by default in IE4. IE5 has it like IE6. Every doze machine I touch that doesn't already have it already has it before I finish where it should have been in the first place. It's incredible that all GUI browsers don't have it there by default. -- Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you. Psalm 55:22 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] font-family- system value
Julián Landerreche wrote: i'm testing some fonts in a new design, and I want to know is if it safe to use the System font value. In the character map (WinXP), the System font doesnt show any icon (nor the T nor the O ring). The System font is the one that usually is displayed when your (old) computer runs out of RAM memory and you get an horrible dialog box with Ignore or Cancel buttons. This System font doesnt seems to have a bold variant, nor a small-caps variants. But I like and *I want to use it*. My question is: ¿is it safe? ¿Is this System font in all systems (Win, Linux, Mac) or at least in all Windows machines? Which system font? In CSS2 CSS3 system fonts have special meaning: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/Font/fonts-system.html http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-shorthand http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-fonts-20020802/#font-shorthand -- Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you. Psalm 55:22 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
So what other pages should go here... How about a 'Why doesn't the site work in my browser' page, somewhere to advocate the use of modern, standards compliant browsers. Maybe then users would have a good reason to move away from non-compliant browsers, and designers/developers would be rid of the need to worry about 90% of the hacks we currently use. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: *****SPAM***** RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
Ummm, if you were a developer would you put a link on your non-standards compliant site pointing to a page that tells the user why your site is bad R (either confused or not catching sarcasm on a Friday afternoon) - Original Message - From: Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 2:48 PM Subject: *SPAM* RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics So what other pages should go here... How about a 'Why doesn't the site work in my browser' page, somewhere to advocate the use of modern, standards compliant browsers. Maybe then users would have a good reason to move away from non-compliant browsers, and designers/developers would be rid of the need to worry about 90% of the hacks we currently use. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
I think what Scott meant was to display information for those people that use old browsers which do not display Web Standards Compliant pages properly. So you create a web standards compliant site, but users with Netscape 4 can go and read why this site doesn't work in their browser. I am not sure if I like that idea though. I think a common page should contain helpful information, but should not be misused to voice our frustration with people that use outdated technology. -Original Message- From: Richard Czeiger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 2 September 2005 3:02 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: *SPAM* RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics Ummm, if you were a developer would you put a link on your non-standards compliant site pointing to a page that tells the user why your site is bad R (either confused or not catching sarcasm on a Friday afternoon) - Original Message - From: Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 2:48 PM Subject: *SPAM* RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics So what other pages should go here... How about a 'Why doesn't the site work in my browser' page, somewhere to advocate the use of modern, standards compliant browsers. Maybe then users would have a good reason to move away from non-compliant browsers, and designers/developers would be rid of the need to worry about 90% of the hacks we currently use. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Text Size Statistics
From: Richard Czeiger Ummm, if you were a developer would you put a link on your non-standards compliant site pointing to a page that tells the user why your site is bad R (either confused or not catching sarcasm on a Friday afternoon) I think confused. I took this to mean that: - you create a standards compliant site - a visitor with an older browser visits and sees mush - a page explains why the page looks like mush and that the problem is with the older browser and explains ways to improve matters for the visitor. This seems to be an extension of the WASP's .ahem campaign to create awareness of the desirability of upgrading old, non standards compliant browsers. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
