[WSG] Paul Chandley/HeadOffice/DHS is out of the office.
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[WSG] target and accessibility
I am confused by the WAI validator failing validation on a section of a page which has the following code: dd a href=mk/introduction.htmlIntroduction/a /dd dd a href=mk/introduction_pt2.htmlWhat the author says/a /dd dd a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a /dd dd a href=mk/mkchapters.htmlSample chapters/a /dd The validator (Cynthia) says : Rule: 13.1.2 - All Anchor elements are required not to use the same link text to refer to different resources. * Failure - Anchor Element at Line: 143, Column: 15 The page in question is at http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/menufiles/menu.html I'm obviously missing something . . . can anyone help?Thanks. -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a Same text - different destinations. On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:43:51 +1000, Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Proper way to give height a horzontal UL Nav Bar
Hello all -
I've created a pretty basic horizontal nav bar using a UL and in-line LI's.
The only twist to this is that this design calls for a rather tall nav bar
with right-borders (on the LIs) which span the height of the UL.
To accomplish this, I've had to put the same amount of top and bottom
padding on BOTH the UL and the LI's - the same amount of padding on the LI's
so that the right borders would span the height of the UL. Looks to spec in
FF, NN, Opera and IE6.
So, what's the problem?
I'm just not comfortable with the way I've achieved this (same padding on
both ULs and LI's) I can't imagine this is the ***correct*** way to
accomplish this and would really appreciate anyone's guidance.
The basic CSS for this is shown below:
#navTop {
padding-left: 5px;
padding-top: 5px;
padding-bottom: 21px;
background-color: #00CC00;
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 0.70em;
}
#navTop li {
display: inline;
border-right: 1px solid white;
padding-top: 5px;
padding-bottom: 21px;
padding-right: 26px;
padding-left: 10px;
}
#navTop li.noPad {
padding-left: 0;
}
To see it live go here: http://www.x7m.us/_problems/test.htm
Thanks to all in advance!
Cole
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Re: [WSG] Proper way to give height a horzontal UL Nav Bar
Cole Kuryakin wrote: I'm just not comfortable with the way I've achieved this (same padding on both ULs and LI's) I can't imagine this is the ***correct*** way to accomplish this and would really appreciate anyone's guidance. http://www.x7m.us/_problems/test.htm I don't know much about correct, so I would probably go for a simpler solution, like the following variant... http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/test_07_3540.html http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/test0001.css ...and then add whatever IE6 needs. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
John Faulds wrote: a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a Same text - different destinations. Thanks John! But . . . That's what I want : 2 different books, each in it's own headed list, both with a section on what the critics say. Does this mean I can't have that? If so, that is ridiculous!! If I have 20 items for sale in a list, does that mean I can't have a 'buy now' button for each of them, because the link text is the same? Ludicrous! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks John! But . . . That's what I want : 2 different books, each in it's own headed list, both with a section on what the critics say. Does this mean I can't have that? If so, that is ridiculous!! If I have 20 items for sale in a list, does that mean I can't have a 'buy now' button for each of them, because the link text is the same? Ludicrous! See checkpoint 13.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Al Sparber wrote: From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks John! But . . . That's what I want : 2 different books, each in it's own headed list, both with a section on what the critics say. Does this mean I can't have that? If so, that is ridiculous!! If I have 20 items for sale in a list, does that mean I can't have a 'buy now' button for each of them, because the link text is the same? Ludicrous! See checkpoint 13.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ That's why it failed validation of course. viz: 13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2] Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context -- either on its own or as part of a sequence of links. Link text should also be terse. For example, in HTML, write Information about version 4.3 instead of click here. In addition to clear link text, content developers may further clarify the target of a link with an informative link title (e.g., in HTML, the title attribute). So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, Buy this now, Now buy it, Get it at once, Purchase now, Get yer wallet out, Fork out now, Dig in for the dosh, etc etc. :-) Ludicrous! I see the point, obviously, but really!!! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Designer wrote: Ludicrous! I see the point, obviously, but really!!! not really, you're missing the obvious. the links should be buy book on cooking ISBNx buy book on Shiatsu ISBNx buy book on Vegetarian cooking ISBN etc and the visual styling would be a graphic buy now (using some accessible image replacement technique) and everyone is happy. you the designer can have your visual button, and Google and all the other people that can't see your button get a meaningful list to choose from. think about it... ;o) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Designer wrote: So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, Buy this now, Now buy it, . No, it doesn't. It should rather be: Buy product A now, Buy product B now, Buy product C now, Buy product D now, . Your own page should then probably have something like: EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER About the book (- EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER) What the critics say (about EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER) What the readers say (about EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER) -- MANCHESTER KISS Introduction (to MANCHESTER KISS) What the author says (about MANCHESTER KISS) What the critics say (about MANCHESTER KISS) Sample chapters (from MANCHESTER KISS) ...and you can probably hide the part I've placed in parentheses from normal view, in order to keep the graphical design as is. Makes kind of sense to me when I go through those links. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, Buy this now, Now buy it, Get it at once, Purchase now, Get yer wallet out, Fork out now, Dig in for the dosh, etc etc. :-) Ludicrous! I see the point, obviously, but really!!! Accessibility sometimes involves judgement calls. No one is forcing you to not use Buy Now 20 times, on 20 different links. But you can use: Buy Machester Kiss now Buy Manchester Hug now -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Designer wrote: John Faulds wrote: a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a Same text - different destinations. Thanks John! But . . . That's what I want : 2 different books, each in it's own headed list, both with a section on what the critics say. Does this mean I can't have that? If so, that is ridiculous!! If I have 20 items for sale in a list, does that mean I can't have a 'buy now' button for each of them, because the link text is the same? Ludicrous! What about: a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say spanabout XXX/span/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say spanabout YYY/span/a Then you use your favorite method to hide the span elements. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
On 10 Mar 2007, at 19:18:00, Thierry Koblentz wrote: What about: a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say spanabout XXX/span/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say spanabout YYY/span/a Then you use your favorite method to hide the span elements. As long as your favourite method doesn't involve the use of display: none; or visibility:hidden, as they will hide the content from screenreaders :-) Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Proper way to give height a horzontal UL Nav Bar
Georg - Wow, that's great! There's a number of things I'm going to have to study on this (particularly the li+li - I've never seen that before). What you've done is a lot cleaner; appreciate your assistance! FOLLOW ON: Of course, the drop-downs DON'T work in IE 6 - maybe because the active area in IE only spans the link word rather than the entire LI ... and maybe other reasons as well. Any suggestions on how to show the drop-downs in IE? Javascript? Behaviors? Additional follow-up appreciated if possible. Best regards, Cole -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:48 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Proper way to give height a horzontal UL Nav Bar Cole Kuryakin wrote: I'm just not comfortable with the way I've achieved this (same padding on both ULs and LI's) I can't imagine this is the ***correct*** way to accomplish this and would really appreciate anyone's guidance. http://www.x7m.us/_problems/test.htm I don't know much about correct, so I would probably go for a simpler solution, like the following variant... http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/test_07_3540.html http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/test0001.css ...and then add whatever IE6 needs. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
In fact there is a let-out clause - http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#link-text - you *can* use the same text for different links, providing you use unique title text for each one... (still irritating - but as you say - there is a point there...) Simon www.simonmoss.co.uk That's why it failed validation of course. viz: 13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2] Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context -- either on its own or as part of a sequence of links. Link text should also be terse. For example, in HTML, write Information about version 4.3 instead of click here. In addition to clear link text, content developers may further clarify the target of a link with an informative link title (e.g., in HTML, the title attribute). So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, Buy this now, Now buy it, Get it at once, Purchase now, Get yer wallet out, Fork out now, Dig in for the dosh, etc etc. :-) Ludicrous! I see the point, obviously, but really!!! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Proper way to give height a horzontal UL Nav Bar
Cole Kuryakin wrote:
Georg -
Wow, that's great! There's a number of things I'm going to have to study on
this (particularly the li+li - I've never seen that before).
I used that '+' selector to add a top border to a li only when the li is
preceded by a li. Prevents adding border to the first li.
IE6 doesn't understand the '+' selector, so I suggest you style borders
on all li's for IE6 - using the '* html' hack, and then either add a
class to the first li - styling it to 'border none'.
You may also simply lift all li's with a 'margin-top: -1px' and hide the
part of the first li that ends up above the ul.
* html ul#navTop ul {overflow: hidden;} should do.
The reason for doing it this way is that it'll work just fine in all the
latest browsers, and workarounds for IE6 can be kept completely
separated from the regular good browser styling - making it easy to
read and maintain.
What you've done is a lot cleaner; appreciate your assistance!
You're welcome :-)
FOLLOW ON:
Of course, the drop-downs DON'T work in IE 6 - maybe because the active area
in IE only spans the link word rather than the entire LI ... and maybe other
reasons as well.
IE6 doesn't support :hover on anything but links.
Any suggestions on how to show the drop-downs in IE? Javascript? Behaviors?
Maybe this...
http://annevankesteren.nl/test/examples/css/htc/hover.htm
...or maybe IE expressions will do...
http://lawrence.ecorp.net/inet/samples/css-ie-hover.shtml
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] web accessibility-some thoughts
Bob Schwartz wrote: First a disclaimer: heheheh I had to have my rant off-list before I could respond !:) How and why did the web get singled out from among all of the other publishing mediums to be by law accessible? It hasn't. Why aren't book, magazine, and newspaper publishers required to produce an audio or braille version of everything they publish? Why aren't TV broadcasters and movie production companies required to sub-title all of their broadcasts or films, or have an off screen reader describing the scenes? My question to Helen Coonan was Why aren't DVDs sold in Australia required to have captions? I got a half-arsed response from both Helen Coonan and Philip Ruddock. Their response was it's up to the manufacturers which is a totally cop out answer, because they know, as do all of us, things only ever happen in Australia when it's legislated. You might think captions on a DVD is a silly thing to enfore: here is a test for you. Go into your local video rental place, and check out the Australiana shelf. What percentage of those are captioned? THEN go onto Amazon.com and see whether or not the same film released for the US audience has captions. Guess what region encoding that DVD from the US has? Guess what region encoding is enforced upon us? Doesn't match, does it? Therefore, those that need captions on Australian films can't have it -- although they can see it on AMazon.com -- because of region encoding. It's a nasty little catch 22. And I still didn't avoid my rant. Isn't saying one can't (shouldn't) use, for example, a popup window on a web site because screen readers have trouble with them, like telling Hollywood they can't (shouldn't) use certain special effects because the off screen reader would have trouble explaining them to a blind person? No, it's like telling the Australian Film Industry to stop being such discriminatory wankers and ensure they have captions on their Australian releseasd DVDs. Kat Who doesn't watch Australian movies because the lack of captions isolates a family member who needs them. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Katrina wrote: Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the issue is about *defining* what tabular data is. What's your definition of tabular data? Data that is separated by a tab character (such as tsv files etc). I don't think this relates *directly* to HTML though, it's a format for tabular data exchange. The question wasn't about HTML, it was about what tabular data was. And it's data separated by a tab character. To quote: A table can be a simple collection of data in tabular format http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/tables.html But does using a tabular format makes the data tabular? Yes, because tabular format is tabular data due to the use of the tab character (thus 'tab'ular data). Because in this case what about the content of Definition Lists? I mean (when unstyled) a DD shows with a tab indent, isn't it? But it's not unstyled, is it? It's styled by the default browser style sheet. What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Yes, because you still need to explain the relationships between the two. Those two pieces of data by themselves mean absolutely diddly squat. Is that the name of the current president of this organisation? Is this a member that is a president of another organisation? Is it a candidate running for president? tabular data requires the tab character (or the close web approximation to) and in some ways requires an explanation of the relationships and meaning between the data. (headers) I totally agree with you on this last point (explicit relationship between the data), but then in a simple two column table (note that I can see exceptions here), there is a good chance that the data would make sense with no headers at all, no? No. It is the assumption on your part of what that data means. It is better to be explicit, rather than implicit, and to not leave the meaning of the data with the viewer who makes their own meanings from their own experiences and understandings. In short, does the following makes sense to you or not at all: President John Smith Vice-president Janet Jones etc. There are tabs in there, which creates an implicit relationship... But it is better, with data, to be explicit, to ensure your reader knows exactly what you are talking about. There is always room for mis-understandings no matter what you do, but you can minimise that. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Proper way to give height a horzontal UL Nav Bar
Georg -
Have implemented an .htc hover file. All looks (and responds!) as per spec.
Thanks again so much for your guidance, as well as for the explanation below
of the li+li.
Cole
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 10:30 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Proper way to give height a horzontal UL Nav Bar
Cole Kuryakin wrote:
Georg -
Wow, that's great! There's a number of things I'm going to have to study
on
this (particularly the li+li - I've never seen that before).
I used that '+' selector to add a top border to a li only when the li is
preceded by a li. Prevents adding border to the first li.
IE6 doesn't understand the '+' selector, so I suggest you style borders
on all li's for IE6 - using the '* html' hack, and then either add a
class to the first li - styling it to 'border none'.
You may also simply lift all li's with a 'margin-top: -1px' and hide the
part of the first li that ends up above the ul.
* html ul#navTop ul {overflow: hidden;} should do.
The reason for doing it this way is that it'll work just fine in all the
latest browsers, and workarounds for IE6 can be kept completely
separated from the regular good browser styling - making it easy to
read and maintain.
What you've done is a lot cleaner; appreciate your assistance!
You're welcome :-)
FOLLOW ON:
Of course, the drop-downs DON'T work in IE 6 - maybe because the active
area
in IE only spans the link word rather than the entire LI ... and maybe
other
reasons as well.
IE6 doesn't support :hover on anything but links.
Any suggestions on how to show the drop-downs in IE? Javascript?
Behaviors?
Maybe this...
http://annevankesteren.nl/test/examples/css/htc/hover.htm
...or maybe IE expressions will do...
http://lawrence.ecorp.net/inet/samples/css-ie-hover.shtml
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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