Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
On 04-Jul-07, at 9:29 PM, Sander Aarts wrote: Angel Martin Alganza schreef: On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 10:19:51PM +0200, Sander Aarts wrote: I alway make skip links to all major parts of the page, being the different levels of navigation, main content, sub content (side bar) and sometimes even the breadcrumb if it's not to close to the skip link menu. I place the links in order of importance (content first and then navigation). Don't you need a skip 'skip links' link, then? :-) No, because then you'd probably want a skip 'skip skip links link' link as well ;-) As I said in another post in this thread I start with linking to the content and then I link to the various types and levels of navigation in order of importance. That way users can skip the skip menu quite soon (I'd say as soon as with a more regular skip to- navigation). Weighing in rather late to this discussion; hopefully this is still relevant. I think Maxdesign had a study on skip links [1] and the benefits to visually challenged users a while ago. I found the presentation rather useful, because it challenged some of my own assumptions as to how visually challenged users interact with websites. The gist of it was that 'skip to' links were perhaps less useful than structural headings, though I read through the presentation far too long ago for that to be a good summary. Best, - Rahul. [1] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing Accessible Applications With Flash, Asp and visual Basic
You would be better off to use html and javascript with some flash for your a/v components. Marvin Hunkin wrote: Hi. now just wondering, can i develop flash web applications, using jaws, and say using a programming interface say like microsoft visual studio, asp, or the flash development kit, and like say developing web applications, with a flash interface, and say doing animations, lines, arrows, buttons, and a flash movie, inserting, audio and video. how accessible with jaws? if you could let me, know, send asap. cheers Marvin. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
The datastore/backend guys will just make sure the data is in a nice format (JSON or something) and that its accessible from a url - their job is done my friends. Ouch. For me this points up the absurdity of the demarcation between front-end and back-end developer. Unless each of us understands the whole sweep of it we're going to make stupid mistakes that will make everyone else in our team miserable. Spare me, please, from working with someone who believes that their job is done at the boundary of any particular technology or technique. In my experience everything in this field is too interconnected for that kind of separation to work. It drives me crazy when graphic designers hand me one Photoshop mockup per page and figure that their job of designing the site is done. To do a decent job, a web graphic designer needs to understand CSS which requires familiarity with HTML markup and browser technology, and it helps hugely if they understand the economies of scripting, the logic of database queries, and the fundamentals of many other technologies that superficially have nothing to do with graphic design. Just as a good print designer needs to understand papers, inks, and printing technologies, a web graphic designer needs to know the stuff that the page is made of in order to make competent decisions. Looking at it from the back end, there are convoluted handshakes between MySQL and PHP and HTML and JavaScript and CSS, and bingo you're doing graphic design. Even if we don't do all the work ourselves we have to maintain a healthy appreciation for the limits, requirements, and efficiencies of all the technologies in the daisy chain if we're going to produce really great work. Of course there's a difference between 'having an understanding' of a technology and actually practicing it. I'm familiar with many of the capabilities of Photoshop, for example, even while I acknowledge that I'm a novice user and pass the fine work along to my partner the graphics expert. But when I'm engineering the back end of a project my consciousness has to extend all the way to the very front or we'll end up with something that's lame at best, broken at worst, a disappointment to the client, and expensive to fix. I appreciate the efforts of the folks in the Netherlands to come up with some standards of expertise by which they can judge a worker's competence, but the front-end/back-end model that's driven this discussion waves warning flags for me. I think it's a potentially harmful paradigm if formalized into job categories with impermeable boundaries. Did anyone but me read A.E. van Vogt's Voyage of the Space Beagle as a kid? Specialists are handy appliances, but give me a nexialist any day if you want a brilliant solution. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
I think the question should not be which languages are you good at?, but what you have comprehensive awareness of. I'm also inclined to believe that's what ppk is likely to be focussing on - because just as much as he has a great sense of design and is one of javascript's greatest, his greatest focus has always been standards advocacy and spreading healthy attitudes in web dev. As so many people have pointed out, simply saying you've got good working knowledge of css and php is fine for a job - and as things to be demanded for a specific gig those are useful terms - but as career attributes they're simply no good because of the failure of such statements to address the constantly evolving media and the world around them. I would classify myself as a front-ender, but not because of my focus on design work - or my greater aptitude in ecma, css and markup compared to my php, asp or python. I think the greater qualification comes in standards awareness and interest/participation in the development of standards-concerned technologies. Given time I can learn pretty much any code, but what 'back-enders' value about me at work is not my clear understanding of the overflow property - it's the fact that I'll know when and why a particular browser will exhibit certain behaviour and how to fix it; or why a navigation system based on images without alt text is criminal; or how to ensure complete accessibility in a pre-made site while still having everything look the same. Likewise what back-enders have that I appreciate most is the ability to tell me why my sql databases aren't updating; why my server's ground to a halt; how I can ensure user security on a cms; etc. I reckon it's far more to do with practical ability and healthy thinking than literal knowledge. Lucien Stals wrote: That's interesting. I wonder how many of us are in a similar position? In my role, I work in a multimedia group of 5. (1 illustrator, 1 graphic designer, 1 multi media developer who does some front end web stuff, our manager and myself). I maintain many static web pages on our public site, and develop new stuff which is mainly static html, but also develop some php/mysql stuff and some javascript. The web sites server is maintained by the IT department. I've also recently become the maintainer of our intranet server (win2003 server which I know next to nothing about). This involves maintaining the server itself as well as maintenance of applications on the server and some development in php/mysql. What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a jack-of-all-trades? Lucien. Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Jul 5, 2007 at 10:41 AM, Kevin Futter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/7/07 9:37 AM, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I missed something in the original question. The front end part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back end and that got me wondering. When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to visual design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front end design) Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an easy way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end. I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db, you are definitely back end, not front end. In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and developers? Lucien. I work in a school as part of a team of 3 IT people, so I need to be able to do it all - from configuring the server to developing the databases to designing the interfaces to building the back- end to crafting the HTML/CSS to coding the JavaScript where necessary. So, roles like that do indeed exist, especially in small businesses or where this kind of work is not core business. Am I an expert practitioner of all these disciplines and technologies? Of course not, but I get the job done, and know how to find out what I need to know. Your biggest asset in this game is your problem- solving ability, regardless of how you define your role. For the record, I usually describe myself as a 'web developer', but my school defines my role as 'IT Support'. (I'm also responsible for my share of IT support and staff training too, so it doesn't even end there!) Kevin Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and
[WSG] Colour Contrast Analyser for MAC now available
Cedric Trevisan of TPG (Europe) and WAT-C has developed a version of the Colour Contrast Analyser for the Mac OS X 10.4.6 or later [http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/contrast-analyser.html#macdownload ] It can be used to check for conformance with the WCAG 1 2 checkpoints relating to contrast issues. using the colour brightness/colour difference formulas and the contrast ratio algorithm. -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?
Again, referring specifically to screen reader users, my anecdotal experience supporting several users who are blind in my job is that Rahul is most of the time correct. Good structured code and Standards Based Design with proper lists, headings, and code that's not abused is more useful to these users than the ever popular Skip to Content. However, (there's always a however) we cannot forget about our users who are sighted, or as my colleague says light dependent, and cannot or should not use a mouse. Many folks with mobility impairments navigate using the TAB key and Enter. They do benefit from VISIBLE Skip Links to speed their navigation. For these folks, it's not so much about reading the information or finding a section of content, it's about getting to an interface element and activating it or some such. Skip Links can save them several whacks on the TAB key on their way to their goal. Just my 2 yen on the topic. Christopher M. Kelly, Sr. (GM22) State Farm Insurance Companies Accessible Technology Services Support (ATSS) phone: 309-763-7069 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Web] Access is not about adding wheelchair ramps to existing pages. It's about getting your page right in the first place. This medium was designed to be accessible. If your work isn't accessible, you're doing it wrong... - Owen Briggs, Web and CSS guru, http://www.thenoodleincident.com However bad life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. While there is life, there is hope. - Stephen Hawking -Original Message- deleted for space *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
I would classify myself as a front-ender, but not because of my focus on design work - or my greater aptitude in ecma, css and markup compared to my php, asp or python. I think the greater qualification comes in standards awareness and interest/participation in the development of standards-concerned technologies. Just 2cents fromt he application world. I've been working with enterprise web applications for several years and the distinctions are actually pretty clear in our RFP's I work as an Information Architect, UI Designer, a Web Designer, a Human Factors Engineer and/or a Functional Analyst. The Front End Developers do the jsp, struts, ruby, set up of CVS/Perforce/Whatever, etc. The back-enders (programmers) do database, hibernate, etc. My end product is OO templates for the Front End Developers to use, with the html/css in a format meant to be served as headers, footer, navigational division (for role based presentation) so that they only deal with the content areas once the template parts are in the system. I also do all the wireframes, on one end and the html, css, js, and a fully working prototype that's used for reviews and by QA. Susan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Kindly enumerate to us what meta tags must be retained and what tags that we can do without. This I presume is based on the current standards. Thanks. :-) jojo www.pwag.org www.mccid.edu.ph On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:35:28 1000, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: From: Bruce Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 09:37:55 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Robot meta tags On Tue, 2007-07-03 at 19:04 -0400, Brian Cummiskey wrote: Joyce Evans wrote: Is it important to include the following as part of the meta tags on web pages? meta name=robots content=index,follow No. Meta tags are all but depreciated at this point. he only common one still being used is the langauge/charset type. Most possibly getting off topic but meta name=description content =meta description here / WILL be used by google for the description under the title in search results. Cheers Bruce -- Bruce Morrison Solution Architect designIT Pty Ltd Website Content Management Specialists *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
Hi, I'm quite amazed by the somewhat nervous responses of people who are afraid of 'strict seperation', cause there is no such thing and there won't be any just because you use the term front-end developer'. Of course front-end developers need some basic knowledge of other areas of web development. That's obvious and not different from any other profession. You always need to know things about the other professions in your branche. If only for the fact that you need to know when to ask these colleagues for advise. But that doesn't mean it's not okay to have front-end specialists or to have a proper name for these specialists. In too many companies front-end development is still treated as the mentaly retarded little brother of programming. 'Something all programmers can do' (or designers for that matter). It is not! Well, at least not if want to do a decent job. By giving it its own name, people/companies will start to see that it's a specialism of its own. Even though the exact boundaries can be very blurry. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
